older than I thought Winchester 1894

[chumly2071]

A little background... When I first got into guns in 2008, it was partly due to shooting a '94 Winchester 30-30 at a family cookout. Of the rifles I have shot, it has been the most naturally swinging rifle I have gotten to play with.
I have become very fond of levers and 1911's...

Anyways, since then I have been casually looking for a used one, but not definitively searching. My neighbor went to visit family in GA, and was touring the local LGSs with his FIL, and called and asked if there was anything I was looking for. Told him to keep an eye out for a '94, and if he found one in shootable condition for about $400, I was very interested. He found one, inspected the bore and said it had a smooth action, and was in my price point. I said go for it, and I'll pay him back and transfer it when he gets home.
Anyways, he sent me the serial number, and I was hoping it was pre '64, and was just a well used shooter that I could maybe play with, and restore as necessary... I ran the number, and turns out the 90xxx serial puts it at 1897 as year of manufacture, at least according to a couple different sights.

Now I am a little worried about wanting to shoot a gun of that vintage, and can it handle commercial smokeless loadings or hand loaded cast boolits (nothing hot, and certainly nothing like I might put through my 45-70 Marlin guide gun)?
Until I get it in my own hands and can inspect it carefully, are there any 10,000 foot view concerns of an 1897 rifle? I want to shoot it, but not if it is a collectible. I know it is an antique, but guns are made to be played with, and if it was truly collectible, the LGS would not have sold it for that price knowing it was a 1897 (and they did, according to my neighbor).

Long term I would want to cast and load my own boolits, but I haven't even gotten around to it yet for my other levers (definitely have plans to, just haven't gotten that far yet).

Anyways, just looking for some info/advice on what I got into. Searches here mention that if it is marked with a stamping having a nickel steel barrel, I am good to go.

Thanks for listening to my rambling. I'm excited and nervous... :veryconfu


Chad

[starmac]

No winchester expert by any means, but I wonder why an actual lgs would be selling it for a 400 buck price point, when a post 64 sells for that? Something seems odd here. As far as shooting it, if it were mine I would go shootin.

[chumly2071]

I agree. I took a gamble on my neighbor shopping for me. I'm assuming it must be shooter grade, or the price would have reflected it. If not, I'm "only" into it for $400. I just don't want to kaboom it. Also wasn't sure mechanically or parts wise what would have changed besides barrels and sights as the years progressed within the same caliber. I honestly was expecting, and would have been happy with one from the 70s to play with at the price point. The selection locally has been poor, or severely elevated in price.


ETA:
This is chambered in 30 wcf or 30-30... forgot to mention that earlier.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

The 94 that you have is highly collectible and will grow in value as time passes. If it is in decent shape you can shoot it, especially if it is marked with the stamp for NS(nickel steel). Even if it is not marked NS it is still safe to use, The 30/30 was and still is a smokeless powder cartridge and by 1897 that is what they were shooting in 94's. Calibers were for 25/35,30/30,32/40 and 38/55. None of them were hot-rod loadings. I have a 30/30 from 1897 and have been handloading for it for over 35 years. Maximum loading for commercially loaded 30/30 lists a velocity of around 2100 fps with the 170 grain bullet. I have never shot factory ammo, not because I am afraid to, but because I have never needed to. I have always loaded with cast bullets...using the Lyman 311291 and 27 grains of 3031 which is well below the maximum load listed (31 grains) and my grouping is very good. It is also sufficient for hunting if I choose to do so. Other than the use of NS the rifle was not essentially changed over the years and production went on for a long time. The calibers made for 94's were never intended to be souped up/hot-rodded anyway; if someone needs more power there is lots of other things to play around with. As for the price..$400 is reasonable and in a short time you will never have a problem selling it for a profit. I started messing with Winchesters a long time ago(when I didn't have $$) and prices were very low...now they have gotten crazier and it just keeps going up. I can understand your concern about shooting a vintage rifle and the fact that it is a collectible one. I have quite a number of both and shoot them...which doesn't mean that you have to like the idea, but I have 73's, 86's, 92's and 95's and use them regularly with no problems. It is essentially your call. You will never, if there is a need, have to worry about the availability of parts for 94's. Good luck with yours. LLS

[starmac]

Well hopefully it is a shooter, those usually bring quite a bit more around here. Curious, is it marked 30/30 or 30wcf?

I did pick up a decent M94 a couple months ago for in the neighborhood of 275. I bought it to get the old steel redfield peep off of, for my pre 64. I will put the williams on it and it will go to one of my sils for christmas. It would be rare to see a pre 64 here in any condition under 5 bills. There is ususlly plenty of marlins at any of the gun shows, but the price of them has been creeping up too.

[FromTheWoods]

Well, someone has to say it--If you are not comfortable inspecting the rifle's condition, its safety, a good gunsmith would be a great help.

The price does sound as if you are buying a lemon, or perhaps you are buying a nice rifle at an exceptionally low cost.

1897 '94's are sweet to shoot. Yes, normal factory ammunition and handloads of jackets and/or lead will be safe to shoot (after the rifle has cleared the safety inspection.)

How did you determine the 1897 as the DOM? The list I have from a good source shows most 90,000 numbers to be 1900 rifles.

What caliber is it? Barrel type and length? Buttplate shape?

If it is a 26"OB, Full magazine, Crescent butt without damaged wood/metal, you could make a profit selling it to me!

I'll be happy for you if it turns out you've made an exceptional purchase. Please let us know. And good luck!

[chumly2071]

Snip...




How did you determine the 1897 as the DOM? The list I have from a good source shows most 90,000 numbers to be 1900 rifles.

What caliber is it? Barrel type and length? Buttplate shape?





Caliber is 30 wcf. I got the DOM of of a pdf on a Winchester site (http://www.winchesterguns.com/support/files/images/wfa/2012-All/2012-Articles/Winchester-Manufacture-Dates-by-Year----2012-Scanned-Documents.pdf). I may have mis-read it though.

Will have it in my hands on Friday. I'll post up some pics and share what I see.
I am hopeful it is at least a good functioning rifle in fair to good condition. Anything better is icing on the cake.

Thanks for all the help and info so far. I appreciate it a lot.

[osteodoc08]

I had the opportunity to buy a post 64 for $250. Took to long to decide and away it went. I bought a very nice Pre 64 with rear peep from factory for $500 a few years ago. A rack grade 1894 for $400 is not unreasonable in rural GA. Gotta remember that $400 for poor folks is a lot of money. Some of these mom and pop places price guns to move so they make a few bucks and stay liquid.

[pietro]

I ran the number, and turns out the 90xxx serial puts it at 1897 as year of manufacture, at least according to a couple different sights.




Chad, if your SN is 5-digits ( 90xxx ) it was made in 1895 (according to the pdf on the Winchester website).

1895 = SN 14580 to SN 44359

If the SN is 6-digits (90xxxx) it was made in either 1920 or 1921, depending upon the x'ed-out SN digits you posted. (according to the pdf on the Winchester website).

1920 = SN 880627 to SN 908318
1921 = SN 908319 to SN 919583

However, according to the Winchester Polishing Room records, the 90xxx DOM was 1900 ( the riflles were sent to the polishing room, assembled, & then shipped to the warehouse for further shipment, whenever)

http://www.shootersforum.com/winchester-94-lever-guns/67350-winchester-model-1894-94-factory-records.html






.

[fouronesix]

Here's a link to a site that's simple to use for Win receiver serial dates.
http://oldguns.net/sn_php/winmods.htm

You can also remove the fore end and check for a barrel date- usually stamped on the barrel just in front of the receiver. It's not uncommon for receiver dates and barrel dates to vary by a year or two. As guns were put together, parts were simply pulled from bulk "bins" of parts during the assembly process.

[725]

I would give an old sweetheart like that lots of TLC. I'd prefer cast boolits to jacketed, to go easy on the barrel. You have a treasure there.

[chumly2071]

Thanks for the continued info. It should be here Friday. Serial number on the receiver is five digits, 901xx. I'll pull the for end and see what tales the barrel can tell when it gets here. The site fouronesix links to puts it as 1897.

[chumly2071]

Ok. Got it in my hands tonight.
It is indeed a 901xx (5 digits) serial number. depending on resource, it is an 1897 or 1900 DOM.

More story on where my neighbor purchased it came to light when he relayed the story... While looking at a particularly rough specimen, my neighbor's FIL mentioned he thought he had one at home he'd sell. $400. Sold. After my neighbor handed over the wallet sized photos of dead presidents, FIL took it to a gun shop and was instantly offered $600 for it. Luckily, he would seem to be a good guy and brought it back home to be sent to me. Anyways... seems to be worth more than I paid already.

I am not sure how original it is, as it is clean enough to appear to my untrained eye to have been refinished, and obviously the Williams peep sight and stock set are not standard (that I am aware of). Personally, I really like the stock set that is on it for aesthetics and comfort just armchair wielding it. Visually, it is very very clean. Barrel is simply marked .30 30 near the receiver on the top ( I did not take the hand guard off. There were no other markings exposed externally on the barrel. Looking into the barrel with a flash light, the rifling does not look great, but the bore seems clean enough (again, untrained eye here). The action is smooth and tight, and while the trigger has a little slop fore/aft to it, it is a LOT less than some examples I saw highlighted on YouTube vids searching for Winchester 94 trigger slop.

Overall, I am much more reassured about my purchase now that I got it in hand.

Pics are not great, but what I could do quickly tonight.

Feedback is appreciated.

Thanks-

Chad

[Frank46]

That is not the factory wood that was on the rifle when it was made. However having said that the forend appears to have come off a stevens single shot rifle suitably modified and the buttstock would not have the cheek piece yours has. But you know what?, I really like the way it is as shown. And from the looks of the wood it appears to have been on the rifle for quite sometime. Far from being a winchester purist if I saw it I would not have hesitated to plunk down my money. Should make a great cast boolit shooter. And yes I definitely think you got your money's worth. Frank

[Scharfschuetze]

You know what? I think the rifle is a "Take Down" Model 94!

Original wood or not, that's something to crow about if indeed it is. Post a few more close ups of the receiver-forend juncture and the front end of magizine tube for us so that we can confirm my supposition made from your original photos.

[TXGunNut]

You know what? I think the rifle is a "Take Down" Model 94!

Original wood or not, that's something to crow about if indeed it is. Post a few more close ups of the receiver-forend juncture and the front end of magizine tube for us so that we can confirm my supposition made from your original photos.

Good eye, it is indeed a takedown. The wood is not original but it's also very nicely done, from what I can see. This isn't just a rifle, it was someone's custom pride & joy. Congrats!

[chumly2071]

Well, you made me go look, and it used to be...
The barrel bands are incorrect, and in taking the front handguard off, it revealed that at some point, the barrel and the threaded receiver for the magazine tube were brazed together a little bit.. doesn't look bad, but certainly takes away the value. The middle barrel band also has had a groove ground into the barrel for the band screw to clear. the front barrel band is incorrect, and has a clamp screw going through it. Not knowing any different, I unthreaded the magazine tube, and that screw took a lot of bluing off the magazine tube as it unscrewed (in that area). With that screw gone, the magazine goes on and off very easily. I also in rubbing it with some CLP found that at some point, someone used a set of pliers to try to make it a take down again. It might still be a take down, but I couldn't budge it, and didn't want to force it. If it shoots good, it is still worth $400. It needs a couple spots re-blued now, from the unknown to me screw issue, and the marks I found on the barrel "receiver" (barrel side of the take down assembly, not the frame).


I am not sure it would be worth having someone try to return it to true take down function with a correct barrel or not. I have no clue what that would cost... Not as excited as I first was now (ignorance was bliss), but hoping it is a good shooter none the less.

[chumly2071]

I used this YouTube vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_ZidYc4dpY) to show me how it came apart.... Unscrewing my magazine with the screw rubbing it took the finish off of it (I didn't know any different about the screw)...

I couldn't get the barrel to turn, and didn't want to force it. I must be tired here at 2:30 am... I am bummed about this thing now...

[dikman]

You're bummed because you're over-tired! At the end of the day it's still an old Winchester, and a quite unusual configuration at that. As long as it cycles boolits through it and shoots just enjoy it as something a little bit different.

[salvadore]

If the barrel says 30 30, it's probably not original to the rifle. I think it's a cool looking shooter, but what do I know?

[Griff]

Pictures explain the price. Either a highly modified original (furniture & buttplate, along with being drilled & tapped for the receiver sight), or a "parts gun" that someone put together. Any .30WCF barrel will be nickel steel... as that's what the factory was waiting on and delayed the introduction of the cartridge to 1895. I would have the headspace checked before firing it. The barrel doesn't look like a Winchester barrel... tho' you could custom order just about anything at that time... (no rear dovetail that I could discern.

All in all, if still in spec (headspace) an interesting gun and perfectly shootable! A good investment.

[fouronesix]

It's most definitely a put together/modified gun. And it was originally a take down receiver. Those usually come apart by unscrewing the mag tube enough to clear it out of receiver engagement. Then only a 1/4 turn of the interrupted thread of the upper barrel section bolster to complete the break down. Unknown if the modification process has rendered the "take down" feature inoperative. That brazing is odd- I don't know what that's all about. The notch in the barrel for the barrel band screw is more or less normal.

[FromTheWoods]

One step that is often overlooked/unknown to folks in taking apart a '94 takedown is that the bolt must be at least slightly open to twist the barrel loose from the receiver. Have you unscrewed the magazine tube lever about eight turns? Then, have you dropped the lever a bit to open the action? After doing so, a slight effort is all that is usually necessary to give a quarter turn to the barrel assembly. Pull the barrel and receiver apart.

[chumly2071]

Yep. Had the magazine tube removed completely, and the lever down/breech open. It wouldn't go, so I didn't try to force it. Still trying to figure out what to do, besides take it to the range and at least test drive it as it sits.

[FromTheWoods]

Maybe someone on this forum will share a safe method of applying a bit more force.
At least you didn't clamp it in the vice and use a pipe wrench on it--Too many takedowns have tool bites!

[fouronesix]

If it shoots and functions well, I'd be inclined to leave it alone.

However, if inclined to get it apart for whatever reason- remove both stocks. Inspect it carefully to see if it has been modified so it won't come apart. There may also be tensioning screws in the take down unit. If these have been overtightened or have been changed out to where the unit is actually screwed together- then either the screws need to be removed or a decision made about whether or not it is worth it to continue trying to take it apart.


If satisfied that that it should come apart and hasn't been locked together somehow- apply a little heat and soak in Kroil. When cool apply a little heat and soak in Kroil. Put in a freezer or outside to get cold. Then using a short piece of 1/2-1" dia. hardwood dowel to protect the finish- use the dowel as a flat face punch and tap it fairly hard with a light mallet. Do it in every direction. The idea is to loosen what is likely rust in the interrupted threads. If movement or loosening is noticed- then put it in a vise padded with leather and using something like a large crescent padded with leather and see if it can be wiggled/turned loose. But don't use a long cheater on the wrench to force it- for obvious reasons.

If after all that and nothing has loosened, might be a good idea to leave it alone. Since it is a put together gun, it has no premium as a collectible take down other than that of a shooter- functional take down or not.

[Scharfschuetze]

Before you force it, consider this: Many take down rifles developed some play in the threads holding the receiver to the barel/forearm assembly. This would cause a loss in accuracy and perhaps this was the reason your rifle was unitized by brazing the two parts together.

[fouronesix]

:) Well obviously if the two parts of the takedown are brazed together then it is together for the duration. From the OP's posts it is not clear exactly what is brazed to what. Maybe chumly can elaborate on the brazing.

[chumly2071]

I'll have to get it back apart and get some more pics. The tube that the magazine threads into is brazed to the barrel. I couldn't tell for sure if the brazing went beyond those two or not.

[fouronesix]

Thanks. That's what I thought I had envisioned and since the forward part of the take down is partitioned and separate from the receiver side it would indeed be hard to tell. It wouldn't hurt to continue to carefully dink with it so see if there is any movement between those two parts. If there isn't it and no obvious screws holding them together, it could well be that the brazing extended into those mating surfaces- in effect locking them together. But, if it shoots and functions well, no matter anyway.

[Duckiller]

You need to determine when it was manufactured. If 1897 it is not subject to current firearms laws, it is too old. If you have two dates,1897 and 1900 you may want to have a discussion with ATF. I believe the Cody museum In Wyoming has Winchester records and should be able to give you a delineate date.

[starmac]

OK I am curious as to why he might need to discuss it with atf if the barrel was made in 1900 or later, even right up to yesterday?

[mrcvs]

Your firearm, if numbered 90,1XX, was indeed manufactured in 1900. Up until fairly recently, pre-1899 Winchester 1894's were believed to encompass a far greater number of specimens. Recent research has revealed that the cut-off for pre-1899 (and thus, 'antique' Winchester 1894's is 53, 941 (this being the LAST true antique Winchester 1894). Therefore, by 90,1XX, one would be several years down the road from 31 Dec 1898, and therefore, at 1900.

[pietro]

If the barrel says 30 30, it's probably not original to the rifle. I think it's a cool looking shooter, but what do I know?

Correct - Winchester 1894/94 barrels were stamped with the ".30WCF" cartridge designation until the 1,080,000 to 1,250,000 SN range change to ".30-30WIN".

The OP's rifle looks to be a non-original/shooter parts assembly, IMO worth about what he paid.

.


.

[fouronesix]

I too have heard the back and forth about errors in some Winchester serial dates. As to the ATF question?-- I'm not sure how that has much to do with anything and is mostly a non-issue other than requiring an FFL dealer/shipping transfer for a future sale if it is post '98 and not requiring it if it is 1900 DOM. The best way to determine would be to call the BBHS Winchester records people in Cody, give them the serial number and they'd look up the factory records and generate factory letter. But of course that will cost some $.

[Geezer in NH]

It's been drilled and tapped for the sight. Collector value way down but if the bore is good Great shooter!!!! Ask ATF? Are they serious who cares. To many quislings on the net IMHO. What matters for age is the # on the receiver it is not an import.

[Duckiller]

No one cares about the age of the barrel or any other part EXCEPT the receiver. If built prior to 1898 then the gun is not subject to current firearms laws. If there is a possibility it was built prior to 1898 I would get a letter stating this from the Cody museum. Only reason to talk to ATF would be if there were two possible dates of manufacture, one after 1898. It may be easier to get a letter from ATF saying it is not subject to current firearms laws or what they consider the DOM if you are not planning to sell it in the near future.

[shdwlkr]

winchester prices are all over the place
I have one that is parkerized and so I got it for very little, back elevator on the sight was missing also
I have another 26 octagon barrel that someone messed with the bluing so I got it for half of the value it would have had if it had been left alone
I think right now I have something like 6-7 winchester levers and they seem to be growing or I am just a sucker for an old mdl 94 with some history too it

[chumly2071]

The only serial number on the rifle, and it is unmolested, is the 901xx. The barrel has no markings on it other than the numbers .30 30

I haven't had a chance to tear into it again to get pics of the brazing. Pre-holiday rush around here with family. I am off work starting Wednesday, so after Christmas, I should be able to get a couple more pics.

Thanks for the continued discussion on my '94.