Newbie question on 9mm reloads.

[ell198679]

http://www.reloadammo.com/9mloads.htm Okay, so I had some 90 grain hollow points left over. It says to reduce the load by 10% to get minimum loads. I did that and got a minimum load of 5.49 grains of Unique. If I were to seat the bullet on top of the powder it would be pushing down the powder significantly. My logic tells me, this is probably 100% fine. However, I am curious if this is true. I have seen other threads about this and it seemed fine then. Is this really a none issue, generally speaking. If I were to put 6.1 grains it would be near the top of the brass. I am guessing compressed loads are not a pressure issue or anything else with this round, I know Unique is a slower burning powder then say Bulls Eye.123852

Anyways, I did some research and it seems to be fine, WITH this particular load and powder! As long as, the bullet is not pushed in any deeper when chambering. YIKES! Anyone have that happen? Maybe, ill just put these through my shotgun instead of my LC9 or wait till W 231 returns:|... I don't think you could crimp deep enough on the jacketed bullet to keep it from moving.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?9633-Compressed-Loads-Are-they-dangerous

[tazman]

Anyways, I did some research and it seems to be fine, WITH this particular load and powder! As long as, the bullet is not pushed in any deeper when chambering. YIKES! Anyone have that happen? Maybe, ill just put these through my shotgun instead of my LC9 or wait till W 231 returns:|... I don't think you could crimp deep enough on the jacketed bullet to keep it from moving.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?9633-Compressed-Loads-Are-they-dangerous

Compressed loads as a danger depend on the individual powder involved and how deeply the boolit is loaded in the case.
Loading the boolit too deeply will give you a high/overpressure load more quickly in 9mm than in many other cartridges because of the small case capacity. I had an overpressure situation develop in the 9mm because of a particular style of boolit that was the same weight as another I was using but required that it be deeper inside the case. Without thinking about it, I used the same powder charge I used in the safe load. As it happened, I didn't have a dangerous situation, but the boolit simply would not work at that pressure. It could have been much worse.
I have no experience with Unique so cannot say if that load is safe or not. However, I did look up that combination in the Lyman 49th loading manual and it made no mention of compressed loads with that powder.
Case capacities in the 9mm are all over the map. They vary so much that you will sometimes get slightly compressed charges in one case brand that is not compressed in another. This is why many people sort their brass by manufacturer and work up loads for each brand.

[Garyshome]

Try some titegroup, a little goes a looooooong way!

[rintinglen]

Your 5.5 grain load is well under the maximum load recommended by Lyman in their 49th manual. It is under the recommended start load given by Speer for a 95 grain FMC bullet. That said, that case looks awfully full. Are we sure that is a 5.5 grain charge? I use 5.2 grains with a 124 grain TMJ bullet and I don't recall the case being that full.

If that is a military case, some of them have very thick walls and require less powder to achieve ballistics equivalent to those of lighter weight commercial brass.
+1 on the advice to sort brass by headstamp. Except for blasting ammo, which I load with the lightest charge that gives reliable function, I sort brass when I want to hit what I aim at. In a test I did a few years back, the extreme spread of 25 shots fired from mixed brass was almost exactly double that of 25 shots fired in cases from one manufacturer. Blasting ammo need only function the gun, so I don't bother to sort it..

[tazman]

^^ Good advice.

[rockshooter]

That looks about right for fullness and the load should be fine for pressure. I use 5.0 gr of Unique with 124 gr bullets, mainly because the cases being fuller tended to slosh powder out on my Dillon SD.
Loren

[ell198679]

6.1 maximum load according to the website 6.1 minus .61 = 5.49 the website does state that the loads have been updated. I only have like five of those bullets, I can live with out loading them. I didn't check , but I honestly doubt its military brass it's random range brass. Once, powder hopefully returns ill get some W231 or tite group. If it was a double charge it would be flowing out of the case. I believe it was Winchester brass. The sorting by brass seems like a good idea. However, I have been getting great groups with my LC9 using 124 RN cast and 4grs. of Unique. It cycles great, groups within three inches or so at about 15 yards. With random brass and unweighed cast boolits. My .38 special uses 105-swc and groups about the same. Factory ammo does no better for me accuracy wise. The .38 special is a snub nose Charter Arms. So it is decent accuracy, considering the barrel length, I prefer light loads in these guns. Ammo is only as accurate as the gun it shoot out of. Or I guess if you want to get personal how good the shooter is.:violin:

[robertbank]

Nothing wrong with a compressed charge of Unique. I would double check the charge by weight. If it is 5.5 gr and it is within your loading manual than load the round to the correct OAL and use them up. I have a Unique load given to me by a good friend in Texas that he used on deer. It is certainly warm and in in +P territory and compressed. I would not worry about bullet set back in a pistol when it is compressed already. Use a good taper crimp on the bullet and I would think you have little to worry about.

Take Care

Bob

[GabbyM]

Your 5.5 grain load is well under the maximum load recommended by Lyman in their 49th manual. It is under the recommended start load given by Speer for a 95 grain FMC bullet. That said, that case looks awfully full. Are we sure that is a 5.5 grain charge? I use 5.2 grains with a 124 grain TMJ bullet and I don't recall the case being that full.

If that is a military case, some of them have very thick walls and require less powder to achieve ballistics equivalent to those of lighter weight commercial brass.
+1 on the advice to sort brass by headstamp. Except for blasting ammo, which I load with the lightest charge that gives reliable function, I sort brass when I want to hit what I aim at. In a test I did a few years back, the extreme spread of 25 shots fired from mixed brass was almost exactly double that of 25 shots fired in cases from one manufacturer. Blasting ammo need only function the gun, so I don't bother to sort it..

Piling on for sorting 9mm brass by head stamp. 9mm brass internal volume is all over the place. I decades ago started just pitching any European brass in the recycle bucket. Look at your load book. If the brass listed for that load isn't what you have. Be very careful with any max pressure loads. A chronograph is a good indicating tool. Since there is no magic velocity. If it's higher than stated velocity it's good to assume high pressure too. A micrometer to measure case head expansion works with 9x19mm. Since pressure can be high enough to expand a case head. You do not want to see any measurable head expansion. IMHO. You almost need to be a trained machinist to see a couple tenths however.


Note: There is so much deviation between even all American made brass. there are only a couple brands that I load my 147 grain cast Magma mold bullet in. Others tapper to much to accept the bullet without a ruinous bulge. IMHO shooting mixed brass in a 9mm is a recipe for disappointment. Unless all you do is shoot reduced loads and are happy with hitting an eight inch plate at 25 yards.

All that said. Unique is a fluffy powder and a slightly compressed load is the norm in a 9x19mm. Length of your drop tube will have a lot to do with how tall your powder fill is also.

FYI: your bullet looks like a 90 grain Hornady. I once shot one of those completely through a 170 pound domestic hog broadside through both rib cages. Compared to the 90 grain Sierra which blow completely up.

[GabbyM]

P.S.
reason I stopped using any European brass.
Most of them. Geco back in the 70's standing out in my memory. Would expand heads so much after a few firings. That primers would fall out in my magazine. With predictable disappointments. Lots of great Euro brass out there. I've never found any Lapua laying around at the range. That Geco brass wasn't soft. Just small capacity so pressure was over the top.

[ell198679]

Main brass to watch for if you reload 9x19 is 9x18 Makarov. I know the charge should be fine. Well apparently if you shoot a hog and it didn't expand, or anything, it must be a crappy hollow point. I think they put it there, to make it look cool. Same with 7.62x39 hollow points etc. they don't even expand much in less its through concrete.

[GabbyM]

Main brass to watch for if you reload 9x19 is 9x18 Makarov. I know the charge should be fine. Well apparently if you shoot a hog and it didn't expand, or anything, it must be a crappy hollow point. I think they put it there, to make it look cool. Same with 7.62x39 hollow points etc. they don't even expand much in less its through concrete.

The Hornady 90 grain HP was from another era. It's also one of the best 9x19mm bullets ever fielded. Not what I use now but that's complicated and per my requirements. Then actually I've just gone to 38 Special revolvers.

Let us back up to why and when American police switched to the 9mm auto from 38 Special revolvers. I live in Illinois. Have doe so for perhaps to long. Way back when 9mm auto was almost non existent in US police use. ISP adopted the S&W M39-1. Very importantly the dash one form the 1950's had a feed ramp similar more to the 1911 than todays -2 and decades later integral feed ramps similar to the vastly superior Browning high powers. Point here is soft nose bullets would hang up on the 39-1 non existent ramp. It was a real total *** pistol. I owned however a 39-2 with integral feed ramp that functioned flawlessly. Now here we go. ISP political staff out of Chicago. Argh, anyone from this part of the world knows nothing good ever came out of Chicago. Demanded a bullet for the ISP M39 that would not argh""" over penetrate""" and hit the scum behind the scum ISP was shooting at. Federal came up with said bullet for demonstration. Sold he contract to the Chicago rat bags. Then My beloved ISP at some level got-er-did. Federal loaded a 100 grain truncated cone flat point. Unfortunately they had to stay with the exposed soft nose. That was built sturdy to not expand at all. Just a wide flat point 100 grain bullet at high velocity. Just look up what a 100 grain bullet will do from a 9mm. IIRC about 1400 fps. Those things shot right through auto sheet metal and glass and messed up whatever they hit. For statistics only. Another advantage was the pistols jammed about twice getting through an eight round magazine due to the exposed soft nose that just did not work with he gun. So Troopers knew they'd better make the first shot count. Surprise. ISP raked up the highest first shot kill ratio ever seen in law enforcement history. Per FBI statistics. Next thing you know every PD in the nation just had to have a supper 9. Then they proceeded to load them with 147 grain HP's at a pitiful velocity of 940 fps. I shoot 147 cast FP's at 1120 fps from my 9's. They made this ammo so it would not "over penetrate" . In short over kill. IN other words. The geniuses from Chicago and Boston grabbed control over the ammo.

Big difference between the Hornady 90gr Hp and the never available to public Federal 100gr TCFP. Is the Hornady will actually feed 101% of the time. I prefer a 124 or 147 grain flat point cast solid bullet in my 9mm. If all I was loading my 9 for was the tom cat that ripped up my putty cat a few weeks ago. I'd load the Sierra 90 grain HP that has a 3 1/2 inch penetration and will form experience totally disembowel a tom cat. But past a 50 pound critter it's a useless bullet. Although the most accurate 9mm bullet I ever personally loaded up. For personal defense I totally do not believe in hollow points until one gets into the 357 to 44 magnum power ranges. I look for a minimum of 16 inches of penetration. In short just cast up a flat point lead bullet and shoot.

[ell198679]

I have never actually tested the Hornady 90 HP, never really questioned it till now. It seems to me that with out the energy, velocity and a long barrel, HP is not necessary. However, I do have HP's specifically designed by the FBI for short barreled revolvers, they also make them for the 9mm.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/short_brl.aspx

[GabbyM]

Just my opinion of course so it's worth what you're paying. You'd IMHO be better off for SD with a flat nose truncated cone solid. 124 grain weight is easiest to get hitting to the sights. Hornady used to make a great one. Was the USAF trials design but never adopted by the Army. I would blow nice big holes in meat. About half dollar size all the way through. Also would penetrate 1/4 inch of 1018 hot roll plate steel and break a crack in 5/16th inch HR plate. I can cast boolits tougher than the old Hornady. Using a blend of lead tin antimony and copper. The new Hornady target bullets have a smaller meplate and are compromised as a killer. Don't know if they make the old bullet or not. They call the 90 grain HP an XTP now so I don't know if the new ones are different. The old ones were really pretty good at getting the job done. My old Hornady book list a load of Unique pushing them 1,450 fps. And like I told in the story above. They'd shoot clear through a hog. I ran 90 and 100 gain bulets in my 9mm for ten or twenty years. Then I discovered how much greater penetration in barrier material I could achieve with the 124 grain bullets. Bought some of the Hornady 124gr FMJ-TC-FP as soon as they came out after I'd read the write-up in a magazine. Probably American Rifleman. Covering the USAF test pre 9mm adoption by the US military. The flat nose blew twice as large a hole in ballistic clay as it does in meat. Over a round nose. However the FP would not penetrate the spaced 16 inches of pine board to pass the NATO test so the Army didn't adopt it. Going with a 115gr RN which IMHO was and is a great error. What I used to load in my 9mm before the 124 fmj-tc-fp was the Hornady 125gr tc soft nose made for the 357 magnum revolver. Over 7.7 grains of Blue Dot. Bullet was accurate and I had confidence it would stay in one piece and penetrate. That's the soft nose not the HP. Now I just cast up solids. Cast lead yields higher velocity and I just try to get down to one load only for a couple years. Never works out. The whole idea of keeping a box of super duper high tech bullets around for that once in a lifetime shot just does not work for me within the way I live my life. Besides that in the real world I strongly believe we are better off getting our pistols sighted in precisely for one load and running with that. I have my S&W running the Magma 147gr FP over slow powder. AA#7 and VV 3N38 to a very high for caliber velocity. Just barely sub sonic and the 3N38 will actually run them super sonic. Spring kit with two pound heavier than stock spring gets the SS steel framed S&W 659 slide speed proper. It's impressive power but POI is way off line of sight. Sights are adjusted way over to one side and natural point is messed up. so that ahs just so far been a great disappointment. Faster powder will get them out the barrel at POA but we are down to the old police load of around 945 fps. Which is probably why those 147gr jhp's were loaded to that velocity. So back to the Saeco 122gr TC I have that shoots great. 5.0 grains of Unique will bracket the speed of sound depending upon your cases. Books about 1200 fps. 4.8 grains usually gets them below the speed of sound for a little better accuracy but that's sure not written in stone. Anyways the Unique and a 120 to 124 grain bullet is the old favorite in the 9mm and it's hard to beat. Lee makes a good 120 grain TC bullet in a six cavity and NOE has some very nice 9mm boolit molds. When you get down to it there isn't that much of a gain in shooting a 147 FP at 1140 fps or a 122gr TCFP at the same speed. Then again IMHO a hollow point will hurt you in inadequate penetration as often as it helps. Now for cats coyotes and other critters under fifty pounds. I've an old discontinued Lyman 100 grain TCFP mold that is similar to the Sierra 90gr HP and Illinois State Police Federal soft nose bullet. It will shoot from my 9mm cast BHN #9 hardness at 1300 fps. Then mushroom all the way through the base and frag apart. NOE has molds in inventory with a gas check that from my experience with 44 magnum. You can shoot a very soft gas check bullet that will easily mushroom at high velocity. He even has some hollow point molds if you have an accurate enough pistol to do some varmint work. I use my 38 Special revolvers for anything requiring accuracy because my 9mm's just are not that good. Many 9's are however. For expanding lead cast boolits in a hand gun or rifle. Use a simple formula. BHN x 100 = Velocity at which usable expansion will start to occur. Thus a BHN #10 boolit will expand at over 1,000 fps.

I have two expanding hand gun boolits here on my shelf. Both 44 magnum. Which tosses enough lead to stand to lose a bit and still keep on it's path. One is a 240 grain RCBS SWC with gas check. I cast from soft enough lead to expand when shot over a full charge of AA#9. Soon to switch over to Alliant 2400 as I've a 8 pound can of that now. The gas check lets us get away with shooting a softer alloy and still retain accuracy. Lots of debate there but my 6" Colt Anaconda shoots them as good as I can point it and they for sure mess things up and also penetrate. Then I have a MiHec copy of the H&G 503 with three different hollow point pins. It's a 255gr SWC plain based bullet. Have used three different alloys from soft to hard and they all shoot well.

I've also never had any issue shooting cast from my 9mm's. All I ever did is size them to .357" and they shoot in the S&W, berretta or Taurus. Any lube LARS sells or you home brew. I started casting because al the bullets I purchased from commercial casters horribly leaded my barrel with there hard blue wax with no oil lube. With a good lube I can load a bullet to soft to shoot accurate. Rifle or hand gun. But I never get leading. Except with plain based rifle bullet running to fast.

Then yes. If I was going to run a J bullet in a 9mm. It would be the Spear 124 grain Gold Dot. Followed by the Hornady 124gr XTP. But I've not purchased a jacketed hand gun bullet in a couple decades except for some control samples. after all if a pathetic 115 grin round nose is good enough for the US Army. How far can you go wrong with a Lee or Saeco 122gr TCFP that is at least twice as good. NOE has some designs that are probably as good as you can shoot. Hollow points, flat points, gas check, plain based. Then tailor your alloy to your velocity. Lyman makes some niche 9mm boolits too. I like there 4 cavity molds but in reality I'd go with NOE as I have both. for target shooting though the pointy Lyman 356402 is the most accurate 9mm I ever shot. Also shot three or four under thirty pound critters with the pointy bullet and they didn't die well at all. Which is also the combat record of that pointy design in the P08 Luger.

For a combat boolit use this one here for an expandable round. http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=1045&osCsid=ce4doahqflqmucp5jdej3tb1q6

Gas checked 124 grain TCFP. Cast from a BHN#8 to 9 alloy. Shot at 1140 fps. If you just had to have expansion in order to be satisfied. 4.9 grains of Unique or 5.5 grains Power Pistol. AA #5 is another very good powder. NOE has that same bullet in plain base and gas check. Also in mixed on the same mold. I don't see utility in having them mixed as I'd cast my plain base boolits from a different alloy from my gas checked bullets. Maybe a four cavity plain base for hard cast boolits and a two cavity gas check mold for softer boolits loaded over the same powder charge with the same loading setup. Maybe use a different head stamped brass to tell loads apart as the bullet noses will be identical. I'd use brand new or once fired brass for SD loads for sure. Again I'll state this. I'd just need the one four cavity plain based mold. I use a hard tough bullet for SD in a 9mm. Even to the point of alloying in Cu to make them extremely tough. I am looking for penetration In auto bodies, wheel rims and engine blocks. It's always better to be able to disable a vehicle of a road ragger then ASAP call the county Sherriff. If a cat or opossum takes ten seconds to die because you used a hard boolit instead of a HP then so what. In short , Hollow points in light powered hand guns are looking to achieve a specific wound channel. In a 9mm or 38 Special. HP bullets do in fact fail to yield adequate penetration on human targets. That's a fact Jack. For example. the 38 Special was the magnum of it's time. Over powering the 38 S&W or Colt bay far. It worked fine for around seventy years until some city jack *** decide to load them up with hollow point ammo sold by some slick salesman. Then all of a sudden the bad guys became bullet proof. Same with the 9mm. Illinois State Police racked up the highest one shot stop record in history with a HV 100 grain non expanding TCFP. US LE got a hold of the 9mm and proceeded to load it up with hollow points. All of a sudden it was a useless ***. So they developed the 40 S&W. Now they have miracle ammo and are touting a comeback to the 9mm. This magical ammo is simply fancy pans stuff that does not expand. The Gold Dot works in LE because it's designed so if it hits a leather jacket the HP fills with leather and it does not expand. So we tax payer fork over a dollar per shot to get a HP that will not expand. Thus allowing the darn thing to work. Whatever. Again I like the 122 grain TC-FP. NOE has some even better boolits if I were looking to buy a new one.

[bedbugbilly]

I have nothing to offer on the Unique as I've never used it in reloading my 9mm. But . . . to the OP . . . this may be of no use to you but I'll post it anyway. I load lead only - Lee 120TC and Lyman 358242 121 gr RN. This is going to pertain to the difference in the casings.

I buy "range brass" and have never sorted head stamps as all of my 9mm is strictly low dose plinking rounds. I like and use Bulls Eye. I load both of the above boolits over 3.5 - 3.6 gr. of BE and my SR9 cycles fine with it. Anyway . . . the last couple of nights I've been loading 9mm to take with me to AZ to use for range shooting. The brass I'm using is a batch of 1,000 that I purchase from a member here quite a while ago - it was supposed to be "range brass" and I'm sure it is - no mis-representation on behalf of the member I bought it from. I hand prime and inspect and I was surprised at the number of military casings I culled out. What I did notice was the big variance in the casings themselves between the various head stamps - you cold tell it just by handling it I am not worried about that as my load of BE is about .1 to 2 below what my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook shows for the boolits I'm using. BUT . . .

Just to reinforce the variations in the brass . . . I load on a Lee 4 hole turret with a Lee Perfect Powder Measure attached to the powder through die - works well and it consistently throws a load from 3.5 gr to 3.6 gr - right where I want it. Well . . . last night . . . as I was loading . . . I had a "human error". My normal procedure is to remove the loaded round from the press and insert it in a 50 round plastic box - each time I reach the end of a row, I throw a charge and double check it on my digital scale. At the end of the row, I went to check it and I was surprised to find that there was no powder in the casing!

The Lee Perfect Powder Measure can be shut on and off (the powder flow) by twisting the powder reservoir. Part way through the row of 10, I had reached up and double checked that the measure was tight in the die top and evidently I "twisted" the powder reservoir, shutting the flow off. I though, O.K. . . . I checked the powder at the last end of the row of ten cartridges . . so I should be able to weigh each of the ten cartridges and see which ones have powder and which ones don't. WRONG!

I weighed each of the cartridges in the row and there was such a variance in weight I couldn't tell if they were charged or not. The row was mixed head stamps. My solution was simple . . that entire row went in to my "recycle" can as I don't want a "squib".

My point in posting this is . . . even though I'm sure it's "old hat" to a lot of folks . . . is that there can be a vast difference in casings from head stamp to head stamp. This all converts in to a difference in case volume as well. On the lower end . . . it shouldn't be a problem. If you are playing with "max" loads . . . just keep it in mind. Pay attention to the COAL for the boolit you are using - if your particular pistol requires a different COAL than is recommended to feed properly . . . keep in mind that seating deeper is going to increase pressure . . particularly in a heavier casing with less case volume so if you are using max or near max - adjust your charge and develop your load like any load - start low and work up.

When I saw the variance in the weights of the loaded cartridges between head stamps . . . I decided to check it out further. I sorted out a dozen casings with the same head stamp (supposedly 1 X fired). Case lengths were all the same. Even with the same head stamps and same case length, on my digital scale there was a variance. . . not a large one but perhaps it was because they were from different "runs" or "case lots"?

Not something to get "hyper" over but just a good thing to keep in mind and if you are a more "serious" shooter (I'm just a "plinker") it might be a reason to separate head stamps for "serious" shooting versus "plinking"?

[ell198679]

A cheap hand held X ray machine made specifically for reloading would be nice wouldn't it. :bigsmyl2:Thanks for the information guys. Anyways, if you shake the round you can usually hear the powder inside. However, it is tricky, since one that makes no sound can actually have a charge.