45-70 Govt Loads

[sirgknight]

This may be the wrong place to post this but I am interested in learning some things about this caliber before jumping into it. The firearm will be a Marlin levergun; 300gr jacketed bullet, IMR 4166 powder. First, are carbide dies available for this caliber? I only seem to be finding steel dies in my searches. Second, should a filler be used to load this cartridge? If so, under what conditions? Any suggestions and/or advice would be greatly appreciated. I have long wanted to load and shoot the 45-70 and I would like to get a good start. Thanks.

[runfiverun]

filler seems to work best with faster rifle and slower pistol powders.
if you see vertical stringing or large velocity variations then a filler is recommended otherwise no.
powders like 2400 through the 322 burn speed do pretty well.
and I have seen some loads up through the 3031 area, so just about anything in there works you can push things pretty fast depending on your personal recoil pain level.

[Scharfschuetze]

Probably should have posted in the Leverguns forum, but what the heck. Perhaps a moderator can swap it over.

No carbide dies available that I know of due to the taper in the 45/70 case. I generally neck size with an old Lyman tong tool die adapted to a Rockchucker press. Works pretty well for my Marlin as long as I keep the brass segregated for that rifle. For full length sizing I use the RCBS F/L sizing die.

I can't help with your choice of bullet or powder as I generally shoot a 405 grain cast boolit, but I have in the past loaded a 350 grain jacketed bullet over 3031 powder for very good accuracy and ballistic uniformity.

[Motor]

I use a 300gr JHP for deer but not with that powder. I use IMR-4198 and load to top end Marlin specific data. There is no need or room for fillers in this load. :)

[Artful]

No factory carbide dies as stated due to taper in the case, but if you want to neck size the first .6 inches of the case is the same diameter as the 45 colt - so you can use the 45 colt carbide sizer as long as you don't push it more than .6 inches down the length of the brass. You'll have to guide your case into it.

I have not found a need for use of fillers in my loads.
If you want some good reading on .45-70...check out
Forty Years with the .45-70 by Paul A. Matthews

I've never tried 4166 powder - but I have used 3031, 4198, 5744, 2400 and Unique. Cast Boolit from 500 down to 300 paper patch down to 200 (take a 45 acp to paper wrap for a plinker) and I've even shot several round balls out of one case at once - think large buckshot. [smilie=s:

- the less the boolit weighs and the less powder used to push it the more fun it gets to be. Some of those heavy boolits thump on both ends.

Get your self some reloading manual's lots of info out there...
Don't forget there are multiple power level's for this cartridge depending upon the
strength of the action - trapdoor lowest pressure to Ruger No.1 or No.3 for crazy loads.
http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45-70&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source
Simple reloading

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3duhNVjAu6E

[WALLNUTT]

I'm with Motor. All of my deer have fallen to the Hornady 300gr hollowpoint with 4198 except I use a Ruger#3 and I ain't sayin' how much 4198 I use. But I will say I got the load from Paul Mathew's book.

[dh2]

the IMR4198 is my go to powder for the 45-70, my marlin does well with every thing from 300 to 405gr.

[Geezer in NH]

No factory carbide dies as stated due to taper in the case, but if you want to neck size the first .6 inches of the case is the same diameter as the 45 colt - so you can use the 45 colt carbide sizer as long as you don't push it more than .6 inches down the length of the brass. You'll have to guide your case into it.

I have not found a need for use of fillers in my loads.
If you want some good reading on .45-70...check out
Forty Years with the .45-70 by Paul A. Matthews

I've never tried 4166 powder - but I have used 3031, 4198, 5744, 2400 and Unique. Cast Boolit from 500 down to 300 paper patch down to 200 (take a 45 acp to paper wrap for a plinker) and I've even shot several round balls out of one case at once - think large buckshot. [smilie=s:

- the less the boolit weighs and the less powder used to push it the more fun it gets to be. Some of those heavy boolits thump on both ends.

Get your self some reloading manual's lots of info out there...
Don't forget there are multiple power level's for this cartridge depending upon the
strength of the action - trapdoor lowest pressure to Ruger No.1 or No.3 for crazy loads.
http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45-70&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source
Simple reloading

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3duhNVjAu6E
Great post, newbies pay attention

[Gtek]

Marlin, 45-70, 300 "J". Life may be easier if you found a can that had 4198, 3031 or an RL-7 somewhere on it. Buy some dies that come in a red or green box, spend a lot of time in the crimping section in instructions. Make double sure all your cases are uniform, start charge about second bump in from left and stop increasing when your shoulder or target tells you to stop. Mild to wild is in your hands, tickler, teaser, womper, stomper, show stopper. if you do not have a lot of thumper time starting low and working up is an excellent exercise. Enjoy!

[MT Chambers]

IMHO the 45/70 comes into it's own as a big game gun with heavier cast flat point bullets, alloyed to give some expansion at the chosen velocity, my go to powder is AA2015 but RL-7 works good as well, absolutely top end loads call for H-335 although most any mid burning range powder will work. Using the 45/70 in this manner gets the job done on our large game here in N. Canada, where a 300 gr. jacketed bullet might get you in trouble with a bear or a moose.

[44man]

3031 will give the least recoil, 4198 the most. Varget works good as does 4759.

[BigDanS]

12.7 grains or Trailboss and a 405gr lead bullet like the Missouri Bullet company bullet and a Tula large magnum primer, about 1000 fps from a 16 inch gun, 1100 fps from a 20 inch gun, and will drill right through almost anything not a buffalo, moose or a bear.

D

[sirgknight]

Thank you for the great responses. Since well-known powders are still very difficult to get I did some research (as much as available) and found out that Hodgdon has developed three new powders. IMR 4166, IMR 4451 AND IMR 7977. These powders are new Enduron Technology Rifle powders. The 4166 looked like a good powder to have on the shelf and if used for the 45-70, there is a good bit less pressure from this powder. The down side is that you lose some of the bullet speed. Have any of you considered trying one of these new powders?

[Wayne Smith]

Haven't looked at them. As long as I can get 3031 and put it behind my 457122 I am satisfied and so is my best friend who has a Marlin. (I shoot an Encore Katadin).

[WALLNUTT]

I'll try some when I burn up my 8lb jug of 4198.

[sirgknight]

In checking the differences in imr3031 and 4198 there is about a 10-12000 lb difference in the pressures with little loss in speed. Those are very significant differences. I think I will try both powders and work up some loads with each. My old shoulders can't take the punishment they could fifty years ago.

[stubert]

3031 gives a big push, 4198 feels like you got hit with a baseball bat. ( in my 1895g )

[rfd]

for smokeless and the .45-70 i use aa5744 exclusively, as that powder will achieve excellent long range accuracy at comfortable trap door loads. it's also a low density, high volume powder that will fill the case a bit more than most other smokeless powders other than trail boss. no fillers used, put a wad under the boolit w/crisp bottom plain base. sr4759 is another excellent .45-70 long range powder that will also replicate bp trap door loads. but for me, aa5744 is the .45-70 smokeless powder king.

more about trail boss ... it works fine, but imo it's not as consistently accurate as 5744 or 4759, and much beyond 100 yards the accuracy in my .45-70's drops off alarmingly (for me). you can load down to 22rf mag recoil levels (7# handi rifle, 11gr charge under 405gr lead), or you can fill the case (don't compress) for a full house trap door levels. i've loaded tb with 350-535gr boolits, in 6 different .45-70 s/s rifles (h&r bc, h&r ultra, rolling block, sharps) and could never get near the accuracy of aa5744 at 200yd.

for me, the .45-70 will shine best at long disance with real black powder, properly loaded (compressed) and using my own cast boolits. ymmv.

[sirgknight]

you guys have really got my interest. This will be a whole new ballgame for me and I'm afraid that interest will lead to getting more than one rifle in this caliber. I really like the idea of BP loads and I like the idea of having a trap door model......dang it!!!!!

[rfd]

you guys have really got my interest. This will be a whole new ballgame for me and I'm afraid that interest will lead to getting more than one rifle in this caliber. I really like the idea of BP loads and I like the idea of having a trap door model......dang it!!!!!

we're at yer service and here to help hook you in, er, hook you up. :bigsmyl2:

[MtGun44]

Talked with a friend that knows a lot about those powders, expects them to eventually
replace 4064, 4350 and one of the 50 BMG powders, IIRC. They are cleaner,
both to burn and to make and do not vary much with temperature.

Since 4166 is a stand-in for 4064, it should be pretty good. I use a really
large quantity of W748 and get a really accurate, low pressure, medium high
velocity load with any 405 gr boolit or bullet - 1750 fps at trapdoor pressures.
57 grs, which some folks have doubted, but it is pressure tested data and I
have shot a lot of them in a Marlin GG SS.

4166 should be capable of similar speeds and low pressures, but I have no
loading data. I assume Hodgdon has it on their site.

Bill

[MtGun44]

Talked with a friend that knows a lot about those powders, expects them to eventually
replace 4064, 4350 and one of the 50 BMG powders, IIRC. They are cleaner,
both to burn and to make and do not vary much with temperature.

Since 4166 is a stand-in for 4064, it should be pretty good. I use a really
large quantity of W748 and get a really accurate, low pressure, medium high
velocity load with any 405 gr boolit or bullet - 1750 fps at trapdoor pressures.
57 grs, which some folks have doubted, but it is pressure tested data and I
have shot a lot of them.

4166 should be capable of similar speeds and low pressures, but I have no
loading data. I assume Hodgdon has it on their site.

Went to Hodgdon's site and they list a max load for Trapdoor pressures of
49 grains under a 405 with a velocity of 1700 fps. Pretty darned close to
the W748 load of mine, really. They list 56 gr compressed under a 400 gr
for "lever actions" at 38K psi, 1850 fps.

Bill