12 gauge "paradox" load help

[vandeusenps]

Guys,

I'd like to try some of the very heavy (750 gr +) Fosbery style slugs loaded in some magtech brass cases. I think it would be fun to shoot these out of either my 12 gauge double or rifled barrel pump. I'd probably want to stick with black powder loads only to keep pressures down to safe levels.

Have any of you tried these types of loads? I'm wondering what diameter would be best for rifled and/or smooth bore barrels? I see RCBS makes a cowboy sizing die with a roll crimp feature that could be useful in the making of these.

Any information would be helpful!

[longbow]

i really like those styles of slugs myself and have a drawing of the old Kynoch solids and hollow points. Not many moulds readily available so you would likely have to have one custom made. I think CBE used to offer them.

Those slugs are for rifled bore and not suitable for smoothbore, they are solid slugs. So unless the double is cylinder bore and preferrably rifled they would not be safe to shoot. The rifled pump gun would be fine though.

I think if you are getting a full bore mould made then you should slug the bore and get the mould made to cast a slug that runs at least groove diameter to a thou or so over. There are a few threads with postings on slugs and groove diameter for custom moulds. Accurate Molds has made full bore slug moulds for rifled guns for several people that post here.

Load data is the next hurdle. Once slug weight gets much over typical weights of 1 oz. to 1 3/8 oz. data selection dwindles. You can use equivalent shot weight so heavy shot or buckshot loads can be turned into slug loads if you can find some for 750 grs. of shot.

I have loaded slugs of up to 800 grs. in my smoothbores and used the equivalent weight method for Blue Dot under the slugs.

Two good sources of heavy slug data are turbo1889 and greg5278. Also Ed Hubel who works in a whole other dimension of slug loading.

Ross Seyfried wrote an article on an original Paradox gun he got shooting well with the Kynoch style slug over 21.5 grs. of Unique. That seems to be a BP equivalent velocity load though pressures may be fairly high. If you use BP or subs you should be fine with whatever you can fit in the hull between the slug and gas seal.

I used to shoot 0.690" round balls from my Pedersoli side by muzzleloading 12 ga. If memory serves, I used up to 110 grs. FFFG. Never got good accuracy though because the ball was too much undersize (had to go through the chokes) and I was not smart enough to make donut wads at the time. They did go boom pretty well though and that ball smacked stuff it connected with. The 750 gr. slug would offer more smack for sure.

I also loaded 0.690" RB's over BP in regular hulls and shot them in my old Cooey single shot 12 ga. as well. Again, they went boom just fine and smacked things hard but accuracy was poor. I also found that BP was hard on plastic hulls and I had issues with plastic wads leaving plastic in the bore. Whether they were melting from the BP or simply stripping plastic onto BP fouling I do not know but clean up was a pain. I would go with nitro card wads and a lubed fiber or felt wad for BP.

If you use BP in the pump, make sure you clean out the action after shooting. The BP smoke and soot gets into everything. Not a problem to clean but certainly can be a problem if you don't.

Post results if you pursue this.

Good luck and have fun.

Longbow

[cpileri]

Here is some info I found:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184815-12ga-Paradox-load-data-(low-pressure-slug-loads)-from-book

As for best diameter, can you slug your bore(s)?
C-

[vandeusenps]

Thanks guys for the info. It looks like others have tried this before! My double is a Remington/Baikal SxS with screw-in chokes. My thoughts were to buy a rifled choke tube for each barrel. Maybe this might be more trouble than it's worth!

[cpileri]

it may be trouble but it is definitely worth it!

There is alot of heavy 12ga slug data on this site. Maybe not w the Fosberry style slug, but lots w 750-880->1000gr slugs.

SOme things to get you started
1. slug your bore: if smoothe then thats easy. if rifled, get land and groove diameter.
2. decide on wether you will be using full bore sized slugs, or a slug/ball-in-wadcup type approach.
3. search this site for load data (its here), and get the right hulls for your chamber, etc.


thats the easy way.


if you are developing your own loads, then we can help w some principles: slow powder, firm base for the ball or slug, etc.


C-

[vandeusenps]

Thanks C,

I'll get going on the slugging portion whenever the .735 round balls I ordered get here. What are your thoughts on slug size and alloy? Let's assume my bore (before the rifled tube) is standard .730, should I order a mould right at .730? The rifled choke tubes are listed as .730 in the grooves.

I'd like to stick with full bore slugs, because I'd like to use the magtech brass shells. (you know, for the whole big double rifle shell look)

[cpileri]

it does depend on the alloy, how much size change will occur as and after they cool. Pure lead shrinks abt 1% as it cools. Harder alloys shrink less, but thats all i know. More learned folks will chime in on that, i hope.

You might have trouble w the Mactech hulls and slugs, since even a fullbore slug will be loose in the very spacious magtech brass hulls. Of course, a slug that fits tightly in the hull will be oversize for the bore.

ALthough not as cool, you'll probably be better w plastic hulls. Now, what is even more cool and much sexier, and does fit properly, are the Rocky Mountain Cartridge brass hulls. They are expensive but totally worth it. If you are like I was, you will probably say no to them based on price at first. But one day you will spring for them and be glad you did.

I posted a few threads using them on this forum.

Hope someone better at alloys chimes in.

C-

[cuzinbruce]

I just checked the CBE site and they have a whole bunch of different Paradox molds. Prices start at $109, more for hollow points. I wonder how these would be in a Marlin Slugmaster. 12 gauge, 3 inch chambers, fully rifled, bolt action. The factory sabots were like $16.99 for a pack of 5.
About the black powder, I have read that the old style paper shells are better for BP than plastic ones. I haven't got around to trying it yet.

[cpileri]

I was thinking abt your mold size question.
Here is a quote form James gates, " In slug/bullets as large as 12 gauge, .003" over size of groove is best. Bigger and you will get some mis-alignmenet. Dixie has settled on .730" as a standard."

So knowing alloy will shrink, you are probably best casting large and sizing if necessary; or else cast .003 over groove diameter and know that it will be a littl eless than .003 over groove size.

Also, here is a guy who asked almost your exact question:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?78235-12-ga-paradox-help-!-Slug-or-RB-loads

I didnt read the whole thread before I linked you to it, though! Sorry.
C-

[cpileri]

Also, a few guys here, longbow comes to mind, have done alot w round balls in smoothebores, and loaded relatively large diameter balls (0.735") which then onlyhad to swage down at the equator of the ball when fired, w no problems- even though a slip fit is recommended w round balls (vs the over-groove diam w slugs)

Here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?78235-12-ga-paradox-help-!-Slug-or-RB-loads&p=836496&viewfull=1#post836496

C-

[cpileri]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?78235-12-ga-paradox-help-!-Slug-or-RB-loads&p=842468&viewfull=1#post842468

[longbow]

To be honest, I really like round ball loads. Maybe something left from my muzzleloading days. There is something about a big 'ol round ball.

Having said that, I have a selection of round ball moulds for my 12 ga.'s and that's where I started with slugs about 40 years ago. I had a JC Higgins bolt action 12 ga. with rifle sights and wanted to shoot slugs. Well, back then in Vancouver there was no such thing a a slug mould, that I found anyway, but a local gunsmith had a used Lyman 0.690" ball mould so I bought that. Never got any sort of accuracy from it as the ball is undersize for the bore but too big to go into most shotcups. I used that same ball in my Pedersoli side by and it just slipped through the modified choke nicely but still no accuracy.

In the end I wound up buying round ball moulds in: 0.662", 0.678", 0.715" and 0.735". I never have gotten decent accuracy from the .690" ball but have gotten excellent accuracy out to 50 yards with 0.662" or 0.678" balls in shotcups and with 0.735" ball on a hard card wad column. I can generally count on 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with good loads.

That is better than most slugs I I have shot and way better than the Lyman Foster slug which is another one I have never gotten decent accuracy from. I have done better with the Lee Drive Key slug but even that hasn't done as well as round balls to 50 yards in my guns.

The 0.735" RB also shot very well through a friend's rifled Remington 870 giving several 2" +/- a bit groups at 50 yards. Not sure how it would do through a rifled choke tube as there is very little meat at the equator and a ball would slam into the rifling at full tilt. It is certainly worth a try though. Personally I think a deep rifled slow twist choke tube is the way to go but none are available commercially. I started to make one but got distracted so it is a work in progress I am hoping to get back to. I have the rifling machine made and have started turning components.

Anyway, my original goal was a modern Paradox gun but I was hoping I could get good enough accuracy from smoothbore that I could make a side by slug gun (poor man's Paradox gun) capable of 6" or so groups at 100 yards but I have not made it yet even with single barrel gun so I decided I had better try a rifled choke tube but don't like the modern shallow rifled fast twist choke tubes.

I have not tried one so cannot say whether they work well or not. Reports go both ways whereas fully rifled guns seem to perform quite accurately.

Rifled choke tubes are certainly worth a try and I would have tried then my self but none of my guns are tapped for choke tubes. My plan is to make a Pachmyr style muzzle brake and rifled choke tube. I'll get there one day.

You will probably beat me to it with your rifled choke tubes so I hope you post results. I know I will be interested. Not to sound negative but my suspicion is that even if the choke tubes work and provide individual barrel accuracy it is unlikely that the two barrels will shoot to same point of aim or even close. Don't let that deter you though. Have at 'er and prove me wrong. I'd like to see someone succeed so I can ride their coattails.

While I haven't managed to get the accuracy I was seeking at 100 yards (yet) it has been fun and educational. I really enjoy the slug shooting and I am sure you will too.

Good luck and keep us posted as you go.

Longbow

[sthwestvictoria]

Longbow you are terrifically informative and helpful with all this slug working out.

I have a smooth bore, (pure cylinder on both) Stevens 311. I have a Lee 1oz on the way to try in the traditional way inside a shot cup, plenty of data for that and loading tips.

However I also have this ingenious home-made mold:
123977
That drops a 34gram (1 1/5th ounce) nose heavy projectile. I measures in pure Pb 0.735" at the skirt and .725" at the top.

Given this thread about payload substitution with slugs giving lower pressures than shot (particularly page 2 where Turbo has a lovely picture):
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?107590-Payload-Substituting
And this thread about (albeit heavier) low pressure paradox loads:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184815-12ga-Paradox-load-data-%28low-pressure-slug-loads%29-from-book
I intend to use this data from Hodgdon (high lighted in red) as I have the powder, primers, wads and hulls as described, the only difference being the payload is a slug and a little lighter than listed 1 1/4ounce. I plan to trim the petals off and build up with nitro cards under the slug:
123913
I have done a good bit of metallic cartridge reloading in jacketed and cast. However with shotguns there is always the admonition to use only published data. Having information from these sources does all that sound appropriate?

One thing I do need to test is slug push through - is it just finger pressure or the 8-10pounds that Ajay suggests.

I have a chronograph. I am not expecting any great accuracy, just a chance to safely put some lead down range with the shotgun as some variety from the rifles. This will not be a hunting load so I would be happy with this listed slow 1220fps.

[Hogtamer]

That's a great looking slug SWV! Cheers to the ingenious soul who came up with that. I think you will be surprised with the accuracy so please keep us informed.

[vandeusenps]

Thanks again everyone for all the great info. I have some "parker" brass cases (from trackofthewolf.com) and they do seem mighty loose at the end for holding any kind of slug. Well...there goes that idea! I did see the rocky mountain brass, and it looks like they run over 10 bucks a piece, yikes! However, if you can load them with standard data they might be worth the price. As mentioned above, it looks like paper hulls are the way to go for BP loads...I'll have to buy a few of those to try them out...I see on Ebay there are a bunch of the old roll crimpers available for the paper hulls. Thanks again everyone!

[sthwestvictoria]

That's a great looking slug SWV! Cheers to the ingenious soul who came up with that. I think you will be surprised with the accuracy so please keep us informed.

These are the component pieces:
123976
It needs a good pair of gloves as once poured you need to pull that spring loaded plunger, wriggle the U shapped holder for the pin off then open the bottom plate and tap out then reassemble all the hot pieces!

It is great, unfortunately I do not know who made the mold. It came in a mixed box with other, mostly pistol molds, mostly Lee and Lyman.

As BigSlug and Montana Charlie state in this thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?261675-Scrap-yard-holy-****)


I've been thinking lately that I need to erect some kind of appropriate backyard shrine dedicated to the memories of the un-named ODG's (Old Dead Guys) whose stashes of reloading supplies were too obscure and esoteric for the individuals or shops they fell to. . . enabling me to pick them up for a song or less. The fellows have been good to me over the years. . .


That may indicate that a long-time caster has gone to his reward.
C.I.P
May he never see a wrinkle, and his alloy never oxidize.
CM

[Hogtamer]

Longbow, did you open that attachment in post 13 and look at that slug? Full bore plus a little, very front heavy and a really thick skirt...from what I've gathered from your posts the last couple of years, that's your dream projectile! Get busy and make us one!

[cpileri]

now you're talkin!

[longbow]

Hogtamer:

I did indeed look at that slug. I like the post in the middle as that should not only keep wad material out of the cavity, it should help spread compression stress and keep the skirt from collapsing.

On a somewhat similar note, bikerbeans posted about his 10 ga. hollowbase slug turning in impressive 100 yard accuracy. That one was a turbo design. He posted the drawing and it twigged some lazy brain cells. I remembered seeing that before and actually scaled it down to 12 ga. in 3D and made a drawing. I can't recall if I made the hollow base pin but I have a push out mould that is a hair under bore size (Paradox style) that should work well. I will revive that mould and give it a try.

Biggest problem I have had with hollow base slugs is skirt collapse or belling unless they are oven heat treated. That is even with very thick skirts. I have had a couple designs that I should have pursued and may yet as they gave very good 50 yard accuracy if heat treated. I just didn't like the idea of having to heat treat everything. Also while I like bore size slugs, I find it much quicker and easier to load wad slugs. Yes, I am lazy. That wouldn't deter me from loading and shooting a full bore slug if it was accurate though.

This is an interesting mould sthwestvictoria has and again, my mould is convertable if this works for him I will unashamedly use the design.

I think the biggest benefit of a plain 'ol cast slug is consistency ~ something that is hard to get with attached wads and such. I have been off playing with Brenneke style slugs and not really doing much if any better than hollow base slugs and taking longer to make them.

Anyway, drifting off topic here.

sthwestvictoria:

To try to answer some questions as best I can:

- yes, in my experience substitution of equal weight shot with slug is generally okay and acceptable if fit isn't too tight
- at 0.735" at the skirt it will not be finger push though unless you have a really fat bore ~ I suggest a brass rod or wooden dowel and mallet to tap the slug into the bore from the breech. It should not require any sort of heavy blows so get started. If it does it is too tight. I was concerned about 0.735" RB's so did the same thing and was surprised at how easily they started and that was ACWW. Not much meat at the equator of a ball. A moderate tap should get it going. Very subjective I know.
- as for your suggested load, I have never used Universal so no experience here. I have mostly used Blue Dot and IMR4756, both of which are fairly slow powders. I believe that slower powders are a bit more forgiving of wad column changes and such. Also, I tend to search for load recipes of as low a pressure as I can find. Not too much to worry about if an 8000 PSI load spikes a bit for some reason. I have had a few surprises where I would not have expected it, possibly from a bit to tight a fit or maybe skirt flaring in the chamber jump or whatever. At 10,900 PSI there is not much room for error. Just my opinion and practice.
- if you are using the cushion leg of a wad that allows some compression at ignition that is good. I suggest not using just a plastic gas seal and hard card wad column with a load that generates 10,900 PSI. Pressure may spike higher at ignition without that cushion leg collapsing.

That's about all I've got got for now. I hope it is some help.

I will also be most interested in your results. I have not been slug shooting for too long and have to get back to it. I am thinking the turbo designed slug is a good place to restart.

Longbow

[sthwestvictoria]

Thank you for the input Longbow.

Another option I have found is that Winchester Australia produces a 34gram field load (https://www.winchesteraustralia.com.au/products/BM344) in the 2 3/4 cartridge, velocity is given at 1275fps but no pressure given. This shotshell would be an option for payload substitution. The idea would be to cut off the petals but leave the cushion legs there intact.

Interestingly on opening these Winchester loads up, they contain a gualandi 27 wad:
123994
and 26.0grains of a flake powder (looks exactly like AP70N/Hodgdon Universal but who knows what it is). Although not quite as dire as Vman, there is little opportunity for shotgun wads in my rural area and two metropolitan shops I was at two weeks ago. I think I will be left with opening and recycling commercial shotshells (plentiful, either winchester or federal).

[longbow]

If you can get some slower powders like Blue Dot, IMR4756, Herco or maybe a few others they are likely more suitable for slug loads.

Alternately, Ross Seyfried wrote an article about an old Paradox gun he got to shoot well using Unique which is generally more suited to lighter payloads but the load under a 12 bore 740 gr. Kynoch style slug was 21.5 grs. which produce a relatively low velocity of around 1100 FPS IIRC. I would have to look it up to be sure but roughly equivalent to a black powder load. Which brings up another option which is to use BP or a sub if available.

If you can let me know what powders and components you have available I can look for recipes. I have several reloading manuals and a couple that list pressures from light to heavy with same components. My early heavy slug loads were based off magnum waterfowl loads using Blue Dot and wads with no cushion leg. I simply substituted the same weight slug over a plastic gas seal and card wads to suit crimp height. Not as fast as real slug loads but lowish pressure and they worked just fine.

Longbow