45-70 cast with Ideal loading tool

[Chill Wills]

With not much experience with these fun old tools I can easily imagine living in a much less populated Colorado about 115 years ago casting and loading gun powder into cases readying for a hunt or just anything you would want the big ol' 1886 Winchester around for.
123714123715
I cast a pile of these 45 bullets marked 45 GOV.
The bullets are really the 457 124 and maybe this old tool's cavity was a for runner of the Ideal 457 124 to come - not sure of the timeline. Weighing basically 400 grains in 40 to 1 and plain based of course, I pan lubed them in Eagle lube and loaded a case full of FF powder.
123718123719
If I get a chance after the BPCR silhouette match this weekend I will give them a try and see how they work.

I have not loaded much with these tools. Just a little with the number 4 tool in 25-20. This number six tool must come in adjustable and fixed. This adjustable tool can be adjusted for seating depth. I never see these tools with the primer pin to de-prime the cases. If I can get some pictures of the loaded rounds and shooting the rifle I will post them.
-Michael Rix

[hightime]

The end of this story should be drying meat and wearing skins.


Owen

[kokomokid]

If you take any ram skins with it, be sure and post back.

[smoked turkey]

Chill I don't have any experience with those old tools at all but it does look like fun and I can certainly see how the late 1800s would be calling. I took a turn at reloading some brass shotshells a while back using old way loading techniques right down to the water glass and it was fun. Especially when I punched my tag for a couple of wild turkeys.

[Chill Wills]

Chill I don't have any experience with those old tools at all but it does look like fun and I can certainly see how the late 1800s would be calling. I took a turn at reloading some brass shotshells a while back using old way loading techniques right down to the water glass and it was fun. Especially when I punched my tag for a couple of wild turkeys.

Yes, sometimes just messing with the tools they had 100 years ago is fun and gives us some perspective on the state of reloading today.
This Ideal tool with the threaded seating stem makes me wonder if there were other "things" that could be screwed on to perform other tasks. I have a book on reloading tools, Chamberlin might be the author. It is not next to me and I am too lazy to get it. His guide does not go into a lot of detail about these tools nor there use.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone that does use them and is up on all the variations and extras.

I did not get to shoot the ammo I made yesterday, the weather was just too bad and I wanted to go home. Maybe one day this next week.

[Don McDowell]

I have one of the fixed die tools for the 38-40, it cast's a very good bullet, but after 50 or so the thing is hot enough it's not a lot of fun to hang on to anymore. But then these things weren't designed to reload the volume of cartridges we shoot today. I also imagine that the decapping was done with a separate tool , such as an icepick or similar as Berdan primers were the most common when these things first came out.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/002_zps96f611f7.jpg

[Lead pot]

I use one.
Since I traded off the big fifth wheel toy hauler that was setup with a loading bench and went with a small 26' class C motor home I had to change my way of reloading when I'm away from home a couple months shooting at several matches so I switched to the 310 tool for the .44-100.
I have two, one for the rifle and one for the small caliber hand gun cartridges. The .44 rifles I had the dies made for the .44-77.
I just had a depriming die, sizing die and a compression die made. The black tool has the powder compression die in it. With the .44-77 dies I can use them for the .44-75 Ballard and the .44-100 Rem st. also and the .44-2-5/8 bn since I don't need a seating die I did not have one made for the tool. I get along very well using the 310 tool along with a hand priming tool.
My chambers are cut using my chamber reamers and they are tight except for the .44-77 and they don't really need the neck sizing die.
The tool works great and it's really not much slower then using a press.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_IMG_1957_zps98daf869.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_1957_zps98daf869.jpg.html)http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_IMG_1980_1_zps82d66ca9.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_1980_1_zps82d66ca9.jpg.html)

[Chill Wills]

Lead pot and Don,
I should have guessed you two would have something to offer.

Those 310 tools must be the natural next step from the old tools. I do not have any of those yet.

The 38-40 is mighty nice looking! That is a caliber I have never loaded for and will! Just as soon as a 1892 Winchester comes my way. The right Marlin would be good too. Is the Colt a third generation? Maybe Colt grips on a clone? The color case looks too good for a cyanide clone! Colt I'd guess by the pic.

If I were 20 years younger I would hike into a high elk camp and cast and load my hunting ammo in camp. Romantic notions, No?

[Don McDowell]

Mike , yes it's a 3rd generation. Was brand new in the box, until I got it home.[smilie=w:My neighbor Ol Doc gave me a Marlin 89 , that needed some attention, and after some tlc , a new firing pin, a ton of cleaning and some JB weld in the right places, that ol doll shoots great. Almost had it done in time to fill my antelope tag with it... Next year maybe.
Yup been thinking about one of them wild hair elk hunts myself...

I do hope to see you get a 5 chicken pin with loads made from your new reloading tool..

[StrawHat]

I use a 310 tool for reloading my rifle cartridges. Slower than a full progressive press but I do not shoot as many rifle rounds as I used to. Never had the chance to use one of the Ideal set-ups. Maybe if I found one for one of my cartridges but they are probably scarce on the ground.

[4060MAY]

FYI
Picture of decapping pin for the fixed cartridge 310 tool
this one is for .38 S&W and .38 Special
they press in and are knocked out thru the hole in the bottom of the die
I think these also a neck expander

[Char-Gar]

That takes me back to the year 1959 when I bought my first Trapdoor Springfield and picked up an identical Ideal tool at a gun show for $5.00. The rifle only cost me $25.00. I cast bullet with the mold and loaded on the tool for the Trapdoor and the next year for a Winchester 86. After I loaded 400 hundred rounds or so for the 86 with the old Ideal, I brought a proper set of CH loading dies for my Pacific C press, but continued to use the mold for another year.

My Ideal also came without a way to deprime the cases. My gunsmith and mentor took a length of hardwood dowel rod, put it in the lathe headstock chuck and a small drill bit in the tailstock chuck. He drilled a hole in the center of the dowel and tapped in a small finishing nail and nipped over the head of the nail and handed it to me to deprime the cases.

I would take the case, place it over the dowel and holding the case with my hand would tap the exposed end of the dowel on the bench and out came the old primer. It worked just fine for more than 1,000 rounds. I took several Texas Whitetail with that 86 Winchester and bullets cast in that Ideal mold.

Some years later I traded the old Ideal tool off and the dowel decapping gizmo went with it.

Now in my "golden years", I find myself more and more going back to doing things the old way for it is a good feeling to reconnect with my past and the previous generations of shooters and hunters who did things this way. I leave high tech reloading to the short horns.

[Chill Wills]

FYI
Picture of decapping pin for the fixed cartridge 310 tool
this one is for .38 S&W and .38 Special
they press in and are knocked out thru the hole in the bottom of the die
I think these also a neck expander

These are the best pictures I have seen of these. I have been aware of them but not held one. I made one up on the lathe and it does expand the case mouth but gets stuck in the case. Mine is a work in progress.
With the threaded section on the tool, I wonder if there was a case mouth sizer available at one time. As is, bullets are a slip fit in a fired case. OK but not the best for a repeater. However, in a singleshot all is fine.

[brad925]

Lyman still makes these tools. Been thinking about one for my 45-70 and my 45LC.

[Chill Wills]

Lyman still makes these tools. Been thinking about one for my 45-70 and my 45LC.

Not to pick nits but they stopped making the tools this post is about a century ago. ....but you are right, the 310 tool is today's version less the integral bullet mold that some of the old Ideal models have. Something like the even numbered 2, 4 6 and the rare #8 tool. That is probably wrong but close -from memory.

[4060MAY]

I have 3 of the original tools that originally had a mold on them
not any longer which seems the way it was
one of the tools for the .38S&W only has a primer seater
The 32-40 has both a primer seater and a bullet sizer
these 3 have the sizing die cast as part of the tong tool
I also have 4 sets of handles, steel and some plated, that have dedicated shell holder as an integral part of the tool
and marked on the side accordingly
30-30, 7mm, 22-250 etc
pictures soon

[Don McDowell]

Looking in the original Ideal catalog, the tapered end of the seating die was to be used to flare the case mouth. They don't list a decapper of any kind, matter of fact they boast that with this tool there is no small parts to be lost. The threaded seating die's were sent with tools intended to be used with shell's in excess of 2 1/2 inches, but could be special ordered on any of the shells that required the #6 tool.
My 38-40 tool is apparently a #4.

[4060MAY]

for enlightenment only
go to the bottom of the page and follow the links
Tool #3 shows the decapper

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/310op/history.htm

[Chill Wills]

4060MAY
Outstanding link! From your link is this
http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/310op/ideal_6.htm
and shows the items I thought might be part of a useful kit. The fact that my #6 is threaded made me think different tools could be used to perform the various operations.
PS - this one shows the de-capper

[4060MAY]

after doing a very little research on Ideal tools...It seems like Winchester there is NO "they never made that"
ODG did some stuff...shame they didn't document all of it..seems they thought..everyone knows that

[rfd]

running balls the primitive way ...

http://i.imgur.com/i9womJ1.jpg

[Chill Wills]

Looking in the original Ideal catalog, the tapered end of the seating die was to be used to flare the case mouth.

Don, That make sense. I always looked at that kind of pointed end designed into the seater and never gave it a thought. The only thing I am scratching my head about is the tool has no provision to do an even partial neck size. So when loading for Lever rifles like my 1892 Winchester this Ideal tool can cast the bullet and can size the bullet by pushing through the sizer in the handle..... which even makes it smaller :shock: and then after powdering the case, you can finger seat the bullet ......but it is very loose in the case. Some what too loose for a tubular magazine lever rifle.
Maybe there is more to this. ????

[Don McDowell]

Mike, remember that these tools were designed to be used with blackpowder. As such bullet set back wasn't/isn't a problem in a tube fed levergun. I haven't had anyproblem chambering rounds in either the Colt or the Marlin. The seater seats the bullet into the case far enough that the case mouth is crimped just over the ogive. The catalog says to flare the case mouth to keep from shaving lead when seating, but cases from both of these guns the bullets are a nice slip fit, when sized thru the tool at .401.This tool also seems to size the neck just a touch.
They do caution in the instructions in the catalog, to not use to much powder as it will deform the bullet or possibly damage the case.
One thing I've found very interesting is the old WRA 38wcf cases the primers were crimped into the pocket, just like military brass. So it is necessary to ream/decrimp that primer pocket to keep from wrecking precious primers. So as a matter of procedure I've been reaming the primer pockets on all my 38-40 cases and finding life much simpler.

[Don McDowell]

Heres' the Marlin
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/004_zpsbec26934.jpg

And here's what the first 6 rounds loaded using that Ideal tooll and it's bullets did from the rifle at 75 yds offhand.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/001_zps1df0bea9.jpg

[Chill Wills]

[QUOTE=Don McDowell;3040384]Mike, remember that these tools were designed to be used with blackpowder. As such bullet set back wasn't/isn't a problem in a tube fed levergun. I haven't had anyproblem chambering rounds in either the Colt or the Marlin. The seater seats the bullet into the case far enough that the case mouth is crimped just over the ogive. The catalog says to flare the case mouth to keep from shaving lead when seating, but cases from both of these guns the bullets are a nice slip fit, when sized thru the tool at .401.This tool also seems to size the neck just a touch./QUOTE]

Hey Don. I had not forgot about the load of BP as that is what I use but you are spot on about the crimp in combo with the BP making it serviceable in a lever rifle. I knew that. [smilie=s: but I guess I forgot I knew that. More senior moments.
Thanks all, for helping me learn how these tools were to be used. fun stuff -Michael

[Chill Wills]

Don, we posted at the same time. That is a really nice Marlin 38-40. I would enjoy the set up just as you have it with Colt and loading tool. Very Nice!

[Don McDowell]

Michael, us old guys gots to stick together so's we can keep pointin in the same direction...:bigsmyl2:
I'll try and remember the next time it looks like we'll be at the same place at the same time to drag both those guns along, and couple of boxes of loaded cartridges.
I'm anxious to see what you can make those 45-70 loads do.

I haven't looked at the selection that close, but I wonder if Cornell (Abby's books) might not have some reprints of those early Ideal catalogs? Lot's of good information gleaned out of those books.
Also have to wonder if they didn't start including a decapping accessory after smokeless and boxer primers started to be more of the norm. In that original catalog they did sell a decapping/recapping tool. They also made a special tool for loading the 45 Govt cartridge that instead of the bullet mould on the front of the handles had a sizing tube that resized about 1/2 inch of the case, and you could have the screw out seating die for either the 405 gr, or 500 gr bullet.

[4060MAY]

Don
If you look at the site I posted..I think there is an explanation about the armory tool for the 45-70..also a decapper for berdan primers



I have been shooting a lot of 32-20...model 53 Browning, original low wall I relined and a No.2 RB..also relined
BP shoots to the same point of aim the smokeless load in the SS..the lever is a full case of smokeless..with the bullet touching the powder like BP
I have been trying to get set of dies for the tool I have..marked 32 WCF..I have been using a 30 carbine sizer as a taper crimp die

The 38-40 is one of the treasures I would like to find that is affordable.... yours looks like a find

[Don McDowell]

4060, somewhere around here I have an old Winchester tool for the 32wcf. It doesn't have the mould on the handles tho. Twenty years or so ago I got the hots for a New Frontier in 44 special, and I new a fella that had one new still in the box, turns out he wanted my old worn out 1913 made model p with a 4 3/4 barrel in 32wcf, and we dickered a little for the 1912 made 92 rifle that went with it... I still have all my 32-20 stuff in hopes that someday I get ahold of another set of guns....
I got lucky when I found this Colt, I snagged it off of gun broker for under 1500.. That gun has been on my bucket list for many many years...It is one of the tightest,closest fit and slickest Colt's I have ever been around. It is like the originals tho in that it will shoot dead on at about 75- 100 yds, but you need a deep hold on anything closer.

[4060MAY]

Don
PM me if you want to sell or trade for like stuff
I have a number of 310 tools...complete sets mostly in newer calibers...
Chuck

[Don McDowell]

Chuck I've got a couple of the 310 tools as well, with dies for 38 sp and 300 savage and 6.5, but I have to admit I seldom sell stuff and after I had the remorse over trading that old pair of 32 wcf's , told myself I just don't think I'll get rid of anything. Sort of a packrat I suppose. I carried those 5 boxes of empty 38wcf's for a lustrum or more waiting for a gun to use them in.:veryconfu

[4060MAY]

Don

I completely understand......I still have Indian and Bultaco MC parts do you have any 35 Winchester brass?
picked up a 1895 chambered in it...case is still on the lever..bore is nice..
I know where there is a Marlin in 32wcf may be available...has been relined..not sure of the year, I wasn't interested
I also have 2 S&W in 32wcf....one I got from Ken Mollohan...fun stuff
Chuck

[Don McDowell]

Check with Jamison, they list 35 Winchester brass. It also wouldn't be terribly hard to neck down and fire form 40-70 brass.
http://www.captechintl.com/proddetail.php?prod=35WIN100pcs

[hog]

Very nice ,everytime i run into one of these its either junk or at musem prices, maybe oneday ill get lucky.

[Lead pot]

I have a book called 14 Old Gun Catalogs for the collector By L.D. Satterlee. It's a 1940 print and it covers the time period from 1859 to 1902. It has a lot of good information and loading tools used back then like the Ideal, Marlin, Ballard, Maynard and several others. Rifle and hand gun break down, sights and rifle scopes as well as targets shot.
This book is almost a 1 1/2" thick with a lot of good reading.
And I also just picked up a book last year that is out in the camper on vintage reloading tools and old cartridges. I haven't read it yet just glancing through it and it also has some very good info in it.
There was a old guy that used to set up three tables at a local gun show loaded with old gun and loading manuals.

Kurt

[Fieldmaster]

Hello All
I was talking to a freind about Compatition when it hit me I would like to get back in some shooting compation but this time with my 45-70gov't Shikari in Black Powder so I am investing in a varnie sight for it which ledes me me to the question I am going to use my Lee 340gr. FP mold to make the bullets for te compation what would be a great load of Black Powder for the 340gr. bullet at the long range distance the we will be use for that type of compation please information would greatly be excepted

[rfd]

Hello All
I was talking to a freind about Compatition when it hit me I would like to get back in some shooting compation but this time with my 45-70gov't Shikari in Black Powder so I am investing in a varnie sight for it which ledes me me to the question I am going to use my Lee 340gr. FP mold to make the bullets for te compation what would be a great load of Black Powder for the 340gr. bullet at the long range distance the we will be use for that type of compation please information would greatly be excepted

having used way more than a few H&R rifles for short distance shooting to 200 yards, some things to consider ...

putting a vernier tang peep sight on an H&R s/s break open action means that there *might* be some inconsistency in sighting since the barrel and stock move independently, and may not lock up *precisely* the same, every time, consistently. you may find the smith enterprises barrel ladder peep sight a better alternative. at $165 it will be cheaper than a decent vernier tang, but will not have easily adjustable windage. in any event, the front post sight will need to be replaced with an adjustable aperture globe sight, and better yet if it has an integral spirit level.

you talk of long range competition, but at what distances? a 340 grain .45-70 boolit is not a long range boolit, for the most part. most of us are using a 400+ grain boolit for 200 yards to perhaps 300 yards, and anything beyond that would best be served with 500 grains or more.

the shikari has either a short 24" barrel or a slightly longer 28" one. most long range .45-70's will use a 30" to 34" barrel with a 1:18" twist. you want that fast twist to stabilize 500 grain or heavier boolits. check the barrel length and twist on your shikari.

iirc and fwiw, the shikari frame is not as robust as the latter sb2 frame that's on all current model H&R rifles.

unless the trigger has been worked on, it'll be heavy. i mean like 5# to 7#. the H&R triggers are surfaced hardened only, so filing is out of the question and honing of any kind needs to be carefully done. with the H&R's i had - buffalo classics and ultras - working the trigger/hammer with a bit of graphite helped to make it smoother and a touch lighter. some smiths will do an H&R trigger job, as well. i'd be careful about that.

you will probably be better off with an H&R buffalo classic than the shikari. but even that rifle pales greatly when compared to even the cheap offshore sharps, rolling block and high wall rifles that are far better suited for real long range competition than any H&R rifle.

now, as to what black powder "load" to use - unlike smokeless, there are are no load recipes for black powder. you fill the case with 2f or 1.5f, leave room for the boolit and a wad, compress the powder, seat the boolit, shoot it. there should typically be no air spaces with black powder and it should at least be slightly compressed. just the opposite, for the most part, with regards to smokeless.

good luck with your .45-70 long range shooting.

[Fieldmaster]

having used way more than a few H&R rifles for short distance shooting to 200 yards, some things to consider ...

putting a vernier tang peep sight on an H&R s/s break open action means that there *might* be some inconsistency in sighting since the barrel and stock move independently, and may not lock up *precisely* the same, every time, consistently. you may find the smith enterprises barrel ladder peep sight a better alternative. at $165 it will be cheaper than a decent vernier tang, but will not have easily adjustable windage. in any event, the front post sight will need to be replaced with an adjustable aperture globe sight, and better yet if it has an integral spirit level.

you talk of long range competition, but at what distances? a 340 grain .45-70 boolit is not a long range boolit, for the most part. most of us are using a 400+ grain boolit for 200 yards to perhaps 300 yards, and anything beyond that would best be served with 500 grains or more.

the shikari has either a short 24" barrel or a slightly longer 28" one. most long range .45-70's will use a 30" to 34" barrel with a 1:18" twist. you want that fast twist to stabilize 500 grain or heavier boolits. check the barrel length and twist on your shikari.

iirc and fwiw, the shikari frame is not as robust as the latter sb2 frame that's on all current model H&R rifles.

unless the trigger has been worked on, it'll be heavy. i mean like 5# to 7#. the H&R triggers are surfaced hardened only, so filing is out of the question and honing of any kind needs to be carefully done. with the H&R's i had - buffalo classics and ultras - working the trigger/hammer with a bit of graphite helped to make it smoother and a touch lighter. some smiths will do an H&R trigger job, as well. i'd be careful about that.

you will probably be better off with an H&R buffalo classic than the shikari. but even that rifle pales greatly when compared to even the cheap offshore sharps, rolling block and high wall rifles that are far better suited for real long range competition than any H&R rifle.

now, as to what black powder "load" to use - unlike smokeless, there are are no load recipes for black powder. you fill the case with 2f or 1.5f, leave room for the boolit and a wad, compress the powder, seat the boolit, shoot it. there should typically be no air spaces with black powder and it should at least be slightly compressed. just the opposite, for the most part, with regards to smokeless.

good luck with your .45-70 long range shooting.

Hello boolit man
Thanks for replying back I have several other Shikari with vernier
Sights on t GBO forum mine does have the 28" Bbl. 1-20 twist and I plan on using Pyrodex Select because that is all I have available to me being I am very new to BP cartridges shooting (I mostly shot .308win high power rifle comp ) is the wad needed why not just
Fill the case up to the point where it touches the bottom of the bullet

[Fieldmaster]

Also what is wrong with the Lee 340gr.bullet that too is all that I have available to me it worked when I used them in my
H&R Buffalo Classic that use to have loaded to 2100fps

[rfd]

Also what is wrong with the Lee 340gr.bullet that too is all that I have available to me it worked when I used them in my
H&R Buffalo Classic that use to have loaded to 2100fps

you have a pm - i don't wanna hijack this thread any more than i already have.

[Don McDowell]

Hello All
I was talking to a freind about Compatition when it hit me I would like to get back in some shooting compation but this time with my 45-70gov't Shikari in Black Powder so I am investing in a varnie sight for it which ledes me me to the question I am going to use my Lee 340gr. FP mold to make the bullets for te compation what would be a great load of Black Powder for the 340gr. bullet at the long range distance the we will be use for that type of compation please information would greatly be excepted

Couple of things to chew on here. The Shikari isn't going to be legal for use in NRA sillouettes. It might be ok in the bptr matches, but it's going to suffer severely when you get past the 300 yd mark with the verticle stringing , that comes from the lock up on that hinged breech..
Your Lee bullet won't hold up much past 200 yds, it's to short with a very low bc to stay stable when getting out into the low velocity at the 300 yd mark and beyond.

[rfd]

fieldmaster - what don said +2.

none of the h&r tip ups are competitive, no matter how you tweak 'em.

but since you have the rifle, powder and boolits, just have at it and see for yerself.

i just wouldn't spend any more dollars on that outfit, though.

[Fieldmaster]

Hello
Just found the Silhoutte rule book it's an older on and it is metioned in there and thay even give them a few exception to the rules oh I also relized I have for a Lee 405gr. Bullet so what is your take on that

[rfd]

1. find out yer local silhouette event rules.

2. without buying more stuff, experiment with what ya got, first - that'll tell you more than anything.

which lee 405, the flat nose or the hollow base nose pour?

[Fieldmaster]

The flat nose

[rfd]

The flat nose

good - have at it!

[Chill Wills]

With the holidays over and the outlaws gone I made time to shoot the loaded rounds I cast and assembled with the Ideal "45 GOV" tool.
We have not had great weather lately and got snowed out of the BPCR Silhouette match last Saturday. I through a few things in the truck and found myself keeping my own company while I shot.
126446 Hmmmm! I wonder why I am all alone?
I wanted to shoot these 45 Gov 405's at 100 to see how close they print to the barrel sight. I only waded out to the 50y and stuck up my paper target.
The loaded rounds turned out nice. I lubed the cast bullets with Eagle BP lube and seated them over 63grs of Elephant FFg and a fiber wad. Five of them are shown with the rifle.
126456
They printed into a nice group but a little high. I think the Elephant powder, which was not known as a "strong powder" and the lighter than full 70gr load is the reason. I used Starline cases which hold less powder than the WW cases.
I wanted to load "all" operations with the Lyman tool. Thus, I did not compress very much .....with the bullet. Winchester cases paired with FFg Swiss powder ....even FFFg should show groups a little closer to point of aim.
126459

I took a number of shots at 100ys also. I aimed above the target stands into the clean snow. At that distance the rifle printed about 6-8 inches high too. I will guess the velocity to be at 1150 fps and a strong load of Swiss will start this bullet at 1325fps maybe. The rifle has a ladder barrel sight and with the ladder up I have made easy hits on steel targets at 200y, 300y and 400y. I have not tried beyond that.
During the 40 rounds I shot I did not clean, wipe or blowtube; the accuracy did not drop off that I could really tell.
MichaelRix

[Lead pot]

Well at least you don't need the bear paws yet :)
I go to the range when the weather is not fit like in the rain so I have the range to myself. People come around to ask questions and shoot the breeze when I shoot. :)

[Walker]

The end of this story should be drying meat and wearing skins.


Owen Its a common misconception about the wearing of skins. maybe the red man did but not the guys carrying "boom boom sticks".

[Don McDowell]

Good job Michael.

[cajun shooter]

Don, I have the old Ideal tool for the 44WCF that I purchased years ago. I talked to a man who studied the history on these tools and he told me that my tool did come with a decapper piece that was always lost because they were held in the tool when closed but often not put back when finished loading. I was able to locate one that is now with my tool, I had to pay $50 for it plus shipping.
My tool is an 1880's tool and it drops bullets at .425 which was the original size of the 44 WCF bores.
I tried to sit down one evening and do a bullet making session over an outdoor fire to see what it was like. As you stated, it does not take too many bullets to make the mold impossible to hold onto. I have nothing but the upmost respect for these men who used these tools.
I would hope that had I lived during those times that I would of been a person who was not rich but had a few extra bucks in his pocket. A case of 44WCF sold for about $19 a thousand . Later David

[Hang Fire]

Here is a six die set for .44-40, I also have a three die tool for .45-70.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/P1010324.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/TANSTAAFL-2/media/P1010324.jpg.html)

[Lead pot]

It was common practice when those tools were used to wrap leather shoe laces or strips covering the handles.
I used to use the iron handled moulds covered with leather shoe laces.

[Don McDowell]

David, back in those days 19$ was probably more than a months salary..

I think if I was going to use this tool a lot I'ld sure take some leather lace and do a Marlin tie on each handle, altho by the time it gets uncomfortable to handle wearing leather gloves, the grease is running out of the hinge pin, and it's probably time to quit.. I'm pretty sure they never intended the outfit to make more than 50 rounds at a time.

[Chill Wills]

David, .. I'm pretty sure they never intended the outfit to make more than 50 rounds at a time.

I think this is very true. Unless you are gearing up for war, If you are down to one or two rounds, making a fist full of cartridges goes a long way. Rifles were tools. Fill the magazine and some in a pouch with your kit maybe.

It's warm today and I am headed out to melt some lead.... -before I have to get back to the "to do's".

[cajun shooter]

Hang Fire, the tools we were speaking about were the ones that came with some rifles and known as a all in one tool. You were able to cast a bullet with the one cavity mold, size the case mouth, decap and prime, expand the case mouth and seat a bullet to the correct length. My tool shows signs of being struck with another hard object as it has small indentations on one handle.
I was making fun about sitting down and loading a bunch with these tools. I'm sure that a session that supplied the owner with as few as 5-10 rounds was quite the norm.
My tool was nickel and still has about 75% of the original finish.