38 Super...what's the skinny?

[Love Life]

I'm looking to get a new 1911, and since I have a couple guns already chambered in 45 acp, I'm considering the 38 Super chambering.

I'm not experience with the cartridge and what I have read about the cartridge is all over the place. Some sites say it is just an overpriced 9mm, other sites say it is the bomb diggity, and yet other sites say it is awesome but you can't shoot full power loads (1,200-1,300 FPS with 130 gr ball or cast) in the Colt Commander with alloy frame because it will break the gun, cause a nuclear explosion, lead to mass civil unrest, and other maladies.

My question to those who have experience with the 38 super, and those with experience with the alloy framed lightweight commander, is can the cartridge be loaded to 1,200-1300 fps with a 130 gr boolit and will the guns have a long life with that loading?

Any other advice such as loading tips and things to look out for will also be greatly appreciated!

Thank you!

[FlatTop45LC]

I haven't owned one personally but my father in law shot one in a Colt 1911 for a decade or so and he absolutely loved the caliber and platform. He killed a number of hogs with it with cast bullets.

[ReloaderFred]

I have lots of experience with the .38 Super, but not in an alloy frame pistol. I love the round, and one of my most accurate pistols is a Witness Match in .38 Super. It's certainly not a 9x19 by any means, but is in a class of it's own. I particularly like it with 124/125 grain bullets at 1,400+ fps. Very flat shooting and reliable.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Love Life]

It does help a lot and I thank you both for the info. I don't want to load to the point of blowing out cases, but I would like to load to the 'nominal' standard velocity of 1300 FPS and shoot it a bunch.

[NSB]

I shot competition with one for several years and it had thousands of rounds fired out of it with no problems. It was a Les Behr frame built by Briley Mfg (Claudio Salasa, a truly master gunsmith). It shot under an inch for five shots at 25yds and never missed a beat for reliability. I always wanted to hunt deer with it but never got around to it. That was a steel frame gun so I can't attest to an alloy frame. No problems with full power loads for several years. Got out of steel shooting and sold the gun. Great caliber in my opinion.

[Charley]

Don't have an alloy frame, built a steel frame several year back. Performs very well with 124-125 grain cast. Nice thing about the 1911 platform, another barrel and magazine, and you can have a 9x19 as well, also 7.62x25 barrels are available form time to time, giving you a three caliber combo gun.

[williamwaco]

I'm looking to get a new 1911, and since I have a couple guns already chambered in 45 acp, I'm considering the 38 Super chambering.

I'm not experience with the cartridge and what I have read about the cartridge is all over the place. Some sites say it is just an overpriced 9mm, other sites say it is the bomb diggity, and yet other sites say it is awesome but you can't shoot full power loads (1,200-1,300 FPS with 130 gr ball or cast) in the Colt Commander with alloy frame because it will break the gun, cause a nuclear explosion, lead to mass civil unrest, and other maladies.

My question to those who have experience with the 38 super, and those with experience with the alloy framed lightweight commander, is can the cartridge be loaded to 1,200-1300 fps with a 130 gr boolit and will the guns have a long life with that loading?

Any other advice such as loading tips and things to look out for will also be greatly appreciated!

Thank you!


Over priced 9mm? Yeah! like a .223 is an overpriced Hornet.

I would call it a semiautomatic .357 magnum.

I have owned two. Both many years ago, both 1911s, both steel frame, both were awesome.

I don't like aluminum frames but If I wanted an aluminum 1911 in .38 super, I would not hesitate to buy it.

Remember the brass. You are not going to shoot this thing like a 9mm because the brass is expensive and you are going to lose a lot of it.

[MtGun44]

I shot in the neighborhood of 75,000 rounds of .38 Super at a major caliber level (150-158 gr at 1200 fps or more) over
about 7-8 years in IPSC. These were in an "unsupported chamber" which is just what essentially all semiauto pistols have,
the tiny smile area where the brass is unsupported at the feed ramp area. I could NOT use some brass, but my
Rem +P, PMC +P and a few others would last essentially forever, easily until ejector hits had entirely erased the
headstamp, without problems.

Similar pressure loads with 124gr XTPs will reach a chronoed 1400 fps, well beyond anything that can be done with
the 9mm Luger.

I would put it in the same class as a .357 magnum for many loads, although it cannot handle the extreme heavy end
of the bullet weight spectrum.

I found that W571/HS-7 developed the best velocities with acceptable pressures, and used 7.1 gr (from one of Hodgdon's
small loading manuals, 35,000 psi) under a 158 gr boolit with superb results, but this WILL fail a W-W case 85%
of the time, so do not use them. Unfortuntely, this powder is discontinued, but Blue Dot is almost as good, and
there are some new powders, specifically Power Pistol that may fill that gap, but I have not tried them, still have
lots of HS7 on the shelf and shooting much lower rate these days.

If you REALLY want to push the limits, there is the nearly identical 9x23 that has stronger brass as standard, but the
barrels are hard to find. I believe that Starline is making brass intended for max pressures in .38 Super, something
like .38 SuperComp, now and that may be the smart thing if you want max performance.

Much factory ammo is 9mm +P equiv or less. Handloaded, you can definitely reach very nearly 125 JHP .357 Mag loads which
has a reputation as extremely effective in many police situtions.

Bill

[dave 45-90]

12369038 Super Comp STI...Great round for target or hunting smaller game...I love mine...Will have an SVI on order in the spring

[MGD]

Buy one, you will love it. I loved my SS colt govt but let my brother shoot it. I might get it back. I am shopping for another and I will get an alloy commander. If the frame cracks I'll drill a relief hole at the end of the crack and keep shooting.

[Groo]

Groo here
Another round in the same range is the 357 sig.
You don't need over pressure loads to make your spec.
The difference is the 357 sig is shot in the 40S&W frame with a barrel change,
where the 38super was designed around the 1911 size frame.

[Love Life]

Great info and thank you!! I am sold! Now to find one...


I looked at the 357 Sig, but I don't want the hassle of the bottleneck and the 38 super is a pretty classic cartridge so goes well with the platform.

I don't need whomp 'em and stomp 'em loads, just 130 gr ball at 1200-1300 FPS per the parameters of the cartridge when it came out.

Now to start the hunt for components.

[dave 45-90]

Get the Super Comp.......Stronger brass
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/38-Super-Comp-Brass/

[bruce drake]

Also the Super Comp are rimless and not semi-rimmed.

I built a 38 Super/9mm Luger combo 1911 two years and I love shooting it. I built mine using a Rock Island Armory 9mm Luger govt. model and got a 38 Super barrel from a fellow member on this forum that only required a few minutes with a file to match the barrel hood of the RIA 9mm barrel to achieve proper lockup.

9x23 and 9mm Largo brass are also good brass to use if you can't find 38 Super brass. Starline makes all 4 calibers of brass and they are quality made.

Modern 38 Super barrels are headspaced off the cartridge neck and have eliminated some of the accuracy issues of the older barrels that were headspaced off the rims of the older 38 Super brass. With various manufactures of brass and rim thickness you can see where there might be issues with accuracy if the case is jumping around in the older chambers.

Using a 124gr Lyman (356402) truncated cone mold and 5.3gr of Unique, I get a 1200fps load that is pretty accurate as well.

[JHeath]

Happy to see MTGun44s posts on just about anything. I have no experience w .38 Super but was looking at 9x23 then got distracted. Pretty sure you can make 9x23 brass from 5.56, and have read that some (RIA) .38 Supers will run 9x23 with only a tweak to the extractor. So maybe you can do the Super Cooper thing with what you have, and 5.56 brass. Your alloy frame question boils down to two questions. 1) Will you bulge n blow a case down the ramp? Answer: use heavy duty brass. 2) Will you batter the alloy frame with he manly macho loads? Answer: eventually I guess. Now MTGun44 can tell the world how full of **** I am, which is why I took the precaution of buttering him at the beginning of this comment.

[dtknowles]

I don't own a 1911 but I do like 9x23. I shoot a CZ 52 with a 9mm barrel that I chambered for 9 x 23. It is a handful with hot loads. It can handle the heavier bullets because of the long action and magazines sized for 7.62 x 25. 158 gr. bullets are seated out to max the length of the magazine with still a lot of room for powder. I have three different Wolf recoil springs. When I first loaded for this gun I was turning the rims off 38 super brass. I always wanted a .357 semiauto, this is what I got.

Tim

[c1skout]

Lots of reading here on the 38 super

http://38super.net/

I debated getting one for a while, then finally got a Rock Island. Great shooter and easy to handle. I've run 158swcs through mine, but the 125 rf at just under 1200fps is my go-to load for general use. Everyone who's shot mine likes it because it's so easy to hit with.

[MtGun44]

AFAIK, the SuperComp brass from Starline is the solution to brass inconsistency issues, and eliminates any possible accuracy
issues by dumping the vestigial and useless "semi-rim" on the case to headspace properly on the case mouth. My competition
Wilson LE-Comp custom "Super .38" has a .357 groove diam, and ran very well with commercial cast .357 and .358 diam hard cast stuff.
The SuperComp brass didn't exist when I was serious about this cartridge and making IPSC major caliber (the old one, 180,000)
with it. High pressure was good to make the comp work better. 150 gr boolits had to make 1200 fps AVERAGE of three rounds
pulled randomly during a stage. 158 gr boolits only had to make 1140, but this is an average and ZERO margin. I usually tried for
1225 avg with 158s to make sure I would not get downgraded to Minor Caliber.

I see no real need to spend the time with 5.56 and lose the internal case volume (case is short on volume to begin with, cannot get enough
H110 to do any good for example, need faster powder) so gaining strength at the cost of internal volume is probably a bad trade.
I think the Starline .38 SuperComp has entirely solved this problem - this is from talking to guys that continued on with the .38 Super
a few years after I switched back to .45 ACP.

I need to work with Power Pistol and see how it works - likely too fast, and then go back and revisit Blue Dot, too. Enforcer
and AA#9 are possible powders for those .357 mag equivalent loads, too, when I eventually run out of W571/HS7 in stock.

Remember - "hotrodding" is NOT what I was doing - I was using published maximum loads for HS-7, and unless I got the way too
thin brass (W-W) by accident, my brass lasted forever - good indication of not being above intended pressures. IIRC the Hodgdon
data said my load was 35,000 psi. So, if the slightly slower Enforcer or AA9 [according to one powder burn rate chart - which are
not really all that reliable, just guides] will work [enough can be fit into the case], you should be able to make these power levels
within normal pressures.

IME, the primary issue with aluminum frames with 1911s is sharp-edged JHPs gouging the frame's feed ramp, not any strength issues. Old
style frames had a bridge over the slide stop cut that would crack eventually in the steel guns, too - the solution? Eliminate
the bridge from the factory, nothing to crack and smile on into the future. 1911 frames have eliminated the bridge for several decades,
at least. Possible battering of the aluminum frame by the spring guide can be mitigated with a shock buff.

Bill

[Love Life]

A lot of great info and THANK YOU!! I was a bit confused on the brass as Starline has 3 types. On the Starline site it says that with the supercomp brass the extractor may need to be tuned. I'll get some to try out once I find a pistol.

I'm definitely not looking to turn this into a 357 mag. If I want a 357 mag 1911 then I'll get a Coonan.

[bruce drake]

I only use Starline Brass in my 38 Super/9mm RIA 1911 when I have the 38 Super barrel installed. Their quality is such that I never have concerns about variances in their cases. I tried Winchester brass shortly after I built the setup and like MtGun44 said earlier, its weaker than Starline and I ended up chucking them after two loads (loose primers) of what the Starline are running on their fifth reload series.

In order from the top, here are the brass cartridges that can be used or modified for us in a 38 Super pistol. (I prefer to use the rimless setup for more brass availability than the Semi-rim only stuff.)

Semi-rimmed
38 Super
38 Super +P
(My 1911 has a 9mm extractor so I stay with rimless out of desire to minimize potential errors although my RIA has used unmodified 38 Super brass with no issues. Each pistol barrel is their own of course. - If there are issues, you can always put the brass in a drill press or lathe and cut/file the semi-rim down)

Rimmed
38 Special
38 Long
Both of these cartridges can be used to reform cases. You will need to cut the rims down and also cut an extractor groove along with trimming them to the proper length. I did it only as a proof of concept approach. It can be done but it takes more time than I'm willing to invest at this time.

Rimless
38 Super Comp
38 TJ (Todd Jarrett modified 38 Super Comp)
9x23 Super Comp (it is thinner in the neck to allow for heavier 150gr bullets to be loaded without bulging the brass and it works nicely in my pistol but I've only have about 75 left of my original purchase of 100 due to neck splits that none of the other cases have had (YES, I did load them with 357 Mag equivalent data and I attribute that to their short case life.)
9x23
9mm Largo (its the same brass as the 9x23 but not run as often over the Starline presses for the headstamp so sometimes the availability isn't there. Still great brass.)

I highly recommend using Starline Brass. The big thing is to retrieve them off the firing line as they do become a bit dear on the pocketbook if they get lost.

Bruce

[KYCaster]

Let me address a couple of points that may not be clear from the previous posts.

Your Colt LW Commander and dave 45-90's STI 38 Super Comp have about as much in common as my S&W 686 and a Victory model 38 S&W Long. The only thing they have in common is they will accept cartridges with the same dimensions.

Brass..........

So far no one has mentioned the 38ACP (not to be confused with 380ACP). It's the cartridge that morphed into the 38 Super. Dimensionally identical, 38ACP brass should not be used for loads using data recommended for 38 Super.

9mm Largo and 9X23 are one and the same; two names for the same cartridge. There has been lots of 9mm Largo ammo imported through the years so there's brass still available. When USPSA banned major power factor loads using 9X19 brass, Winchester introduced the 9X23 Winchester to compete with the 38 Super which was the preferred hot rod cartridge at the time. Their first effort wasn't strong enough and many failures resulted. After a couple of redesigns they got it right. 9mm Largo and original 9X23 Win brass should not be loaded to current major power factor levels.

The exception to all this is......Star Line brass can be used with any reliable data up to +P+ levels.

Barrel dimensions...................

The original 38ACP was neither a 38(.357) nor a 9mm(.355). It split the difference with a .356 groove dia. That probably contributed as much to its reputation for poor accuracy as the semi-rim. When USPSA Open Division took off and buyers were asking for the latest cartridge-of-the-month, the specialty gunsmiths started ordering 9mm barrels and chambered them for whatever their favorite happened to be. So now we pretty much have settled on a standard .355 groove dia. for everything that can possibly use that bore size. BUT....Colt was the last manufacturer to jump on that band wagon, so your barrel dimension depends on the manufacture date. (could be as late as 2002 IIRC)

Pressure..............

Go back and read the posts by MtGun44. What Bill describes is the development of the 38 Super used for USPSA Major Power Factor. At the time there was no "Open Division". Just as Col. Cooper envisioned, competition was being used to advance the art of pistol craft. Major power factor was based on 45ACP GI ball ammo (actually slightly less) at 180,000......bullet weight in grains multiplied by velocity. When Jim Clark introduced the "Pin Gun" the race was on! His original was essentially a muzzle weight to help dampen recoil and allow an extended sight radius.

Enter the 38 Super! Now we have eleven rounds a in the magazine instead of eight. But major PF is right at the top end of the available load data. OK, not really a serious problem....until somebody discovered that Clark's pin gun worked a bit better when the powder weight was a significant percentage of the bullet weight. So now we start looking at compensators to dampen recoil, lighter bullets and different powders to make the comp work better. Add electronic sights and we can really see how well our comps are working.

Bill says his 158 gr. bullet and HS7 load was 35,000 PSI, based on the Hodgden data. Definitely +P level pressure. Reduce the bullet weight to 135 and increase the powder charge to stay above the 180 PF requirement and what do you get?.......Nobody knew for sure..........but they did it anyway.

So Wilson and Nowlin started making "ramped" barrels. The feed ramp was part of the barrel instead of part of the frame. The result was a "fully supported chamber" which would help contain the pressure. Other manufacturers started making +P+ brass, another step in the right direction.

Somebody finally decided it might be a good idea to actually pressure test some of the popular 38 Super loads. The results were a bit sobering. Some of the loads generated 65,000+ PSI!!!

So, that's kind of a long winded way of saying.....Be VERY CAREFUL when choosing load data for your Colt. Most sources now separate their 38 Super data into standard loads and +P loads. Stick with standard loads from reliable sources in good quality brass and your Commander should last a long time.

Jerry

[JHeath]

I don't own a 1911 but I do like 9x23. I shoot a CZ 52 with a 9mm barrel that I chambered for 9 x 23. It is a handful with hot loads.

Tim

From what I read, the CZ52 is not the platform for hot loads and high pressures. The roller lockup is good, but required a cutout that creates a thin spot on the barrel. And reportedly the metallurgy is inconsistent. I wouldn't hotrod one. When first imported, conventional wisdom was that the 52 was quite strong. Clark M then discovered that the failure mode when pushed was a split barrel and slide -- not a blown case down the mag well as with most pistols. Accurate Arms dialed back their 7.62x25 data as a result. Be careful.

[dave 45-90]

123892Excellent Job KYCaster. I will add the use small rifle primers does a better job of holding the works together

[wv109323]

If you are looking to launch a 130 gn. 9MM at 12 to 1300 fps then your options are the .38 Super and the .357 Sig. If you want to build a .38 super then I would use a ramped barrel. An aluminum frame should last a long,long time if you have the right spring. The thing with these calibers is brass. You will end up buying new brass and I hate to loose expensive brass. With 9mm brass is everywhere. Unless there is some specific use for this caliber then I would stick with a common caliber. I have 2 .38 supers a commander and a GM. They mostly stay in the safe and I shoot a .45 ACP. So what if I loose some brass, I can usually pick up more than I loose.

[xacex]

I built a 38 super for my wife several years ago from a slide and barrel I picked up not knowing what I had. Turns out it was a colt super comp with the bone ash blueing in pretty good shape still for its age. Took me a year to get it done in my off time, but I also had to add material to the feet, and re time the gun once complete. In the mean time I added a 9mm barrel for it. The gun is a shooter, and I like shooting Mihec 125 hollow points in 38 super as well as 9mm through it. My wife who is partial to 45 ACP likes it, and told me I was not on the trade list so it looks like I did ok on it. My only complaint is the brass, and having to readjust the sights between 9mm and 38 super. I picked up a bunch of starline and some import 38 super brass (about 800), but have only used about 100 pieces. The 9mm barrel stays in it most of the time just because there is always 1k or more around this place loaded.

I had a 357 Sig before a 38 super, and yes they are about the same. However, I find the 38 super more accurate, and the ability to use a heavier bullet without worry of neck tension or set back is nice. I keep a 357 sig barrel around for the glock. I do like being able to pick up 40 S&W brass and converting it for less than magnum 357 sig loads for pump-and-dump brass. I hate the 40 S&W, but I have no problem picking up the brass and using it for something better. I tried the whole 223 brass thing for the 38 S and gave up on it. To much work if I need to pull out a reamer.

[dtknowles]

From what I read, the CZ52 is not the platform for hot loads and high pressures. The roller lockup is good, but required a cutout that creates a thin spot on the barrel. And reportedly the metallurgy is inconsistent. I wouldn't hotrod one. When first imported, conventional wisdom was that the 52 was quite strong. Clark M then discovered that the failure mode when pushed was a split barrel and slide -- not a blown case down the mag well as with most pistols. Accurate Arms dialed back their 7.62x25 data as a result. Be careful.

When I said hot load, I did not mean to imply a pressure greater than normal for 7.62 x 25. I was just indicating that with the CZ52 the magazine lets you use a long COAL so you have more room for powder. You can use a heavier bullets seated way out and with the greater case volume you can load slower powder. I am not sure if I saw the Clark M test results but I did see a CZ52 that failed the way you mentioned when subjected to a serious over charge. It was a blow up test comparison between CZ52 and Tokarev. I don't understand why Accurate Arms would need to dial back their data unless they published data that had pressures exceeding that of factory ammo. The only factory ammo I have chrono'd was some Chinese Mil Surp that pushed a 90 grain fmj at 1500 fps. Was the AA data hotter than that?

Tim

Tim

[JHeath]

When I said hot load, I did not mean to imply a pressure greater than normal for 7.62 x 25. I was just indicating that with the CZ52 the magazine lets you use a long COAL so you have more room for powder. You can use a heavier bullets seated way out and with the greater case volume you can load slower powder. I am not sure if I saw the Clark M test results but I did see a CZ52 that failed the way you mentioned when subjected to a serious over charge. It was a blow up test comparison between CZ52 and Tokarev. I don't understand why Accurate Arms would need to dial back their data unless they published data that had pressures exceeding that of factory ammo. The only factory ammo I have chrono'd was some Chinese Mil Surp that pushed a 90 grain fmj at 1500 fps. Was the AA data hotter than that?

Tim

Tim

At one time AA published a load for a 110gr j-word at 1688fps. Go here and scroll down to Clark's post: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249993

The relevance to this thread -- if there is any -- pertains to 9x23 Win cases. Clark rechambered (using drill bits!) Tok pistols to 9x23 Win. and couldn't get enough Power Pistol under a 158 to burst a case, even with heavily compressed loads.

[dtknowles]

At one time AA published a load for a 110gr j-word at 1688fps. Go here and scroll down to Clark's post: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249993

The relevance to this thread -- if there is any -- pertains to 9x23 Win cases. Clark rechambered (using drill bits!) Tok pistols to 9x23 Win. and couldn't get enough Power Pistol under a 158 to burst a case, even with heavily compressed loads.

I guess I could go look for myself. It would be interesting to see what he was using for a COAL. After I modified my CZ52 I bought two boxes of 9x23 Win and disassembled them. I measured the powder charge and then used the powder and bullets to work back up to a comfortable load in my gun. I did not get back to full power 9x23 Win levels only because I did not want to push limits but got the feeling that the gun would have handled them alright. I later bought Starline 9mm Largo brass since I was not pushing high pressures. I like the greater case volume of the Largo brass along with the greater overall length, that way I can get close to 9x23 Win velocities without pushing up the pressures.

Tim

[357Mag]

LL -

Howdy !


IMHO -
Some of the ( especially ) modern .38 Super loads hit the sweet spot for ft lbs deliverable to a humanoid target, from a controllable platform w/ decent round capacity. For a lot of people, a " Super " would be a better fit, than would use of a 4" ( or shorter ) barrelled .357Mag shooting 125JHPs ( example ).

The new-wave .40 S & W's have made significant inroads on the sale & use of most other defensive round/handgun choices.
The .40 S & W has pretty much surplanted the .38 Super, in that regard. None the less, the " Super " can make for a great choice !


With regards,
357Mag

[JHeath]

Reviving this in case the OP is still around. Stumbled on this:

[MtGun44]

Interesting. IME, Rem +P will last literally forever, and Win +P has a 50%
chance of blowing out the first try at the unsupported area - and the ones that
are not blown out have a .020-.030 bulge which is almost beyond belief. Yet,
in the images, they look essentially identical. Rem brass must be a LOT
harder than the Win. That 9x23 looks like the REAL thing!

Bill

[JHeath]

Found the source of that image. Credit where credit is due . . .

www.38super.net/Images/Sectioned%20cases%20small.jpg

Now if it only included a shortened 5.56 mil brass "super 9" case . . .

[Hammerhead]

I've owned 5 1911s.
2 .45s
2 .38 Supers (Colt & Les Baer)
1 9mm
The Supers were the only ones that were 100% reliable, plus it's a great caliber to load for.

[crabo]

How about some boolits and load info? I've shot up all my reloads and need to develope a good boolit load.

[MtGun44]

My Super was used for competition, had to make major caliber, boolit wt x velocity = 180,000.
I used 147 gr truncated cone with a slight SWC shoulder over 7.1 gr of W571. This made about
1240 fps, so power factor was 182000, barely OK. Later moved to 158 gr same shape and same
powder, velocity was about 1215 or so, so power factor was almost 192000, good safety factor.
This load which was a max load in a Hodgdon mini-reloading book at that time. W571/HS7 is
gone, not sure if Long Shot can make it go. I ran many, many tens of thousands of these
through a Wilson LE Comp built on a Colt 1911, unsupported chamber. This was perfectly safe
with Rem +P, PMC or Midway brass not safe with Win +P brass. Very accurate and basically .357 Magnum
power. Same powder charge under a 124 Hornady JHP would make 1395 fps avg. Very potent
self defense load.

Current Hodgdon data shows std pressure (not +P) load of 7.1 HS6 under a 150 cast lead at 1175 fps.
HS7 was a step slower than HS6. I think you could make 1250 at +P pressures, but there isn't
published data. Max they show with 160 Lead with WSF is only 1050 or so, clearly powder is too
fast. Blue Dot is close to the right speed, was used in competition loads back in the day, but didn't
meter anywhere near as well as W571/HS7 which is a fine ball powder.

Bill

[Love Life]

Wow!! Thank you for the cross sectioned brass picture. That 9X23 brass looks to be quite stout. Right now I am still researching off the shelf the guns, and the possibility of having one built. Not a racegun, just a solid 1911 platform. Buying the off the shelf gun will probably be cheaper even though the donor I have was very low cost.

Hmmm...

[RJM52]

...Super...it was named appropriately...

I've been shooting them since 1980. Used to run 25-35K a year when I shot IPSC. Now I use it in IDPA shoots and it's also my daily carry round. At this point I have 5 Commanders, 5 Combat Commanders, one Colt GM, one Colt Gold Cup and a Kimber Stainless Target II. Then there are the revolvers...S&W 686-7 1 of 300 and S&W 66, 60-10 and 649 that have extra cylinders rechambered and machined for moon clips by TK Custom.

Lots of good information above from some very experienced people.

As to guns... Commanders (as in aluminum frame) are ideal carry guns. Older Commanders made before 1990 will need to have the barrel replaced as the original way Colt headspaced the round was on the tiny rim instead of the case mouth. This was THE reason the guns never were very accurate...

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=182030

If you want a lightweight gun the nicest out of the box Commander is the recent release from Colt of a TALO designed gun is just about perfect.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=460538304

This is mine...I replaced the slim grips, mainspring housing, trigger and rear sight with an adjustable from Dawson Precision. It also now has two barrel. The original is so tightly chambered it will not chamber reloads that are in the least out of spec. I was able to buy a second barrel that was as tightly chambered and had a smith run a 9x23 Winchester reamer into it. Now I can not only shoot Super and 9x23 but my Super reloads will shoot fine from the rechambered barrel. There is also a 9mm barrel waiting to be installed. Also replaced was the original firing pin stop with a square bottomed one to retard opening for the 9x23 ammo.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911/DSCF6930_zps39f10226.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/1911/DSCF6930_zps39f10226.jpg.html)

Eighteen rounds of 9x23 Winchester at 15 yards....this is the 124 Soft Point from Winchester at 1460 fps (chronoed from 5")

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911-II/20130809_154557_zps6de22791.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/1911-II/20130809_154557_zps6de22791.jpg.html)



This my daily carry gun...1952 Commander with BarSto barrel, MMC sights and hard chrome by Accurate Plating. The gun was put together by Jody Joseph of JoJo's in Southington, Ct.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911-II/496e7d80-8f21-43d3-add3-a7e356122bca_zps8ef113e3.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/1911-II/496e7d80-8f21-43d3-add3-a7e356122bca_zps8ef113e3.jpg.html)



Series 80 Combat Commander (steel frame) with BoMar sights and BarSto barrel....bullet is my favorite cast...SEACO 383 140 grain TC. 6.0 grains of Unique at 1230 fps. The one out of the group as my fault not the guns...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911-II/20140509_094040_zps7012aaac.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/1911-II/20140509_094040_zps7012aaac.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911-II/DSCF7595_zps1a90f9a2.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/1911-II/DSCF7595_zps1a90f9a2.jpg.html)

1956 Commander...BarSto, BoMar and hard chrome frame built by Dave Walters, Dallas, Tx.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911-II/DSCF7594_zps9bad7242.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/1911-II/DSCF7594_zps9bad7242.jpg.html)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911-II/DSCF7591_zpsbb16fba7.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/1911-II/DSCF7591_zpsbb16fba7.jpg.html)

...and what I can't figure out is why this bullet feeds in every 9mm and .38 Super I have tried them it...

As to loads, what can you say about a round that will run 88-180 grain bullets with pinpoint accuracy across the board. Just pick a bullet your gun will feed and stick some powder behind it and it will probably shoot. If you look in the Hornady Manual it lists loads for both .355 and .358 bullets. One of the best powders is SR4756...and it is being discontinued this year. I use mostly Unique and it is accurate from mild to wild.


If you want the best out of the box shooter take a look at the Kimber Stainless Target II. Ramped barrel, BoMar sights and mine also runs 9x23 Winchester with just a spring change. Feeds everything. Put a .22 Conversion on board and an accessory 9mm barrel and you have a gun that will do anything any time any where...

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=53122

With .22 Conversion Unit on frame..

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911/DSCF7073_zpsb699639d.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/1911/DSCF7073_zpsb699639d.jpg.html)

Some reading material:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon%2038%20Super%20Ammo%20Tests.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6727703/all/a_few_bullets_tests


Inexpensive barrels...I have a 7" in the Gold Cup and it shoots excellent...

http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/search.aspx?find=.38+super+barrel

5.5" at 50 yards...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/1911/DSCF4325.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/RJM52/media/1911/DSCF4325.jpg.html)


http://www.coltautos.com/1911a1_Super38ci.htm

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Trail+gun+perfection%3a+Kimber%27s+.38+super+stain less+target+II.-a0285993666

http://www.tkcustom.com/content/machine.asp

http://www.vincelewis.net/38super.html

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=451791



Hope this enough info for you...

Bob

[JHeath]

Wow!! Thank you for the cross sectioned brass picture. That 9X23 brass looks to be quite stout. Right now I am still researching off the shelf the guns, and the possibility of having one built. Not a racegun, just a solid 1911 platform. Buying the off the shelf gun will probably be cheaper even though the donor I have was very low cost.

Hmmm...

Someplace I read a review of the Rock Island 1911 .38 Super, where it appeared RIA chambers them to clear 9x23 brass, which might require a tweak of the extractor but that's it. But from what the experts above say, .38 comp brass will be more than enough. In the old days the semi rim caused accuracy issues, and the ramp cutout caused bulged cases, and burst cases resulting in the medical condition "Super Face" among guys who loaded to make major.

[crabo]

Since we're showing pictures of our Supers, here's my baby.

[c1skout]

I've been shooting the Lee 125rnfp sized .357 over 8.5gn of Accurate #7 from my Rock Island. My notes show this load averages 1147fps and it's more accurate than I am. I bought the Lee 124rn to use in this gun but I can't find any loads for it that shoot well, from starting 9mm load range into magnum velocity it was consistently disappointing in my super. I haven't tried many heavy boolit loads, but the Saeco 929 didn't shoot as well out of my gun as the Lee 125, and the Lee 158swc was hitting the target sideways at slightly over starting loads so I didn't go any farther with those, but I may try again with some slower burning powder.

RJM52, I like the look of that Saeco 383!

[9.3X62AL]

The 38 Super is the handgun caliber with which I have the least experience. I have fired perhaps 25 rounds of factory fodder from a friend's Browning BDA (precursor to SIG P-220) many years ago.

Can someone point me at a factory blurb concerning the discontinuance of SR-4756? I have read this advisement twice on this site, but have seen no other info to this effect anywhere else. Thanks a bunch.

[ReloaderFred]

Al,

I can't point to any printed information as to which powders Hodgdon is going to stop producing, but I talked to Chris Hodgdon at the SHOT Show last January and he told me personally that SR-4756 and SR-7625 were scheduled to be dropped from their line at the end of 2015. He said they were both made with old technology that takes longer to produce, and that there were other powders available that would do the same job as these powders.

While I don't like the idea of them dropping two of my favorite pistol powders, I understand the reasoning. If they can have more powder made in the same time period than they can now have produced (since they don't make any of their own powders), then it makes economical sense to move in that direction.

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: I see you traded one kind of sand between your toes for another......... Good move!

[RJM52]

It is a GREAT bullet and the only bullet I have found that is more accurate in the Super/9mm is the Hornady 124 TC... but for cast, have not found anything better.

Vern Dual was Secretary of the Cast Bullet Association back in the late 1970s and lived in Dallas where I did at the time. He used to make these bullets for me out of pure linotype metal... After he got out of casting I always wanted more of the bullets but had not cast since 1980. Three years ago I started casting again and found a two cavity SAECO mold on ebay for cheap money. One day I may order a four but for as much as I shoot this bullet the two cavity makes enough...

I have some sized at .358 and am going to try them in .38 Special and .357 Magnum...

Bob

ps...I have heard that the entire SR line of powders have been discontinued...

[9.3X62AL]

Sorry for the thread drift, but thank you for info. It appears I will need to try other fuels for the 32-20 revolver once my current allotment gets thin. I understand the rationale, but at the same time very few powders have been available at all for 3 years now. The range of choices SUCK, but we make do.

Some part of the 38 Super always scared me a bit. Its ballistics were impressive, it always struck me as The Cartridge The 9mm Wanted To Be, and fell short. I was concerned about unsupported chamber issues in the Colt pistols; the BDA I fired didn't "smiley" brass, and its subjective feel was definitely more than what 9mms conjured up. It wasn't authorized for use at work, though--so it just fell off the radar for me. I got into the 30s and 32s for small game and varmints, and any chance the 38 Super might have had to climb into the gun safe went south at that point.

[bigarm]

What's the skinny on the 38 Super?

It is not called "Super" for nothing. Seriously, I think it is a great cartridge. In a 1911 platform it is a very cool cartridge to shoot. I think the perfect carry gun would be my CCO chambered in 38 Super. I love my CCO and 45acp in general, but if I was to pick another cartridge for a 1911 it would be the Super. And this comes from a guy who shoots a 2011 in 40 in USPSA and 3 gun!

[crabo]

Maybe someone knows a better source, but I remember reading once that Jeff Cooper thought the 38 Super was the ideal trail gun. I couldn't find the exact writing, but here is a discussion

http://gunhub.com/gun-talk/57323-38-super.html

I have always thought the Lee 125 rnfp would be an outstand small game or target of opportunity boolit.

[RJM52]

Cooper once upon a time wrote an article not really on the .38 Super but his 6" BarSto barreled Commander chambered in .38 Super that he used cut down .223 brass making what was essentially a 9x23 Winchester. I have the article and read it once in a while.

I happened to stop and talk with him one day at the SHOT Show in about 1983. I asked him about the gun and he said it was hanging on the wall at Gunsite...didn't sound like it had gotten much use.

Bob

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Reviving this in case the OP is still around. Stumbled on this:

This is an excellent image...kind of tells the story.


edited: bummer image from post #30 didn't "quote"

Let's try this...

218279

[frank505]

Fantastic cartridge!!! Started with a full size Colt and now have a Fusion CCO in 9mm/super 38. The Colt is accurate and reliable,also has me back to 7 yards on the dot torture target. Haven't had weather to resume shooting the dot target this year.
My favorite powder is Power Pistol and AA #7. Haven't bulged at Starline Plus P case in either pistol and we've run some snorty stuff through them. I'm running a sixteen pound recoil spring in the five inch Colt and an eighteen pound in the Fusion.
The NOE 155 grain mold is my favorite bullet now in the cup nose version although the NOE 125 hollow point has done good work for me at 1450 fps. very accurate and explosive on various varmints.