Smith $ Wesson woes? Sales declining? Really?

[prs]

On MSN's site today there is story about S&W placing themselves in fiscal jeopardy due to taking on more debt whiles sales slump. Sales in fire arms slumping? Ya gotta be kidding me? If they are slumping, compared to what? It seems almost impossible to buy some guns due to demand. Maybe shortages of ammo and reloading supplies are making some potential gun purchasers back away; after all, why buy a gun if you can't get or make ammo. Maybe the MSN story is contrived or wishful thinking by a con-gun media source?

prs

[MT Gianni]

Ruger under pricing could have a huge effect on their sales. Sorry to say a S&W revolver isn't what it used to be. Their auto pistols seem to be flying out the door.

[country gent]

After dealing with S&W customer service most of last week it isnt what it used to be either.

[wch]

Foreign imports affect sales of weapons, especially the milsurp stuff.
Anyway, you get what you pay for and some of the Russian, East Bloc and Chinese stuff is real junk.

[bedbugbilly]

Hmmm . . . . maybe they should hunt up their old tooling and start making some good basic revolvers like the old M & Ps? :-) I say that with tongue in cheek but it would be nice if they offered a good basic revolver that didn't cost an arm and a leg. I love my Smiths and have a number of them but I purchased all of them used at an affordable price. They do seem to be doing quite well with their semi autos . . . .

I also think Ruger is sometimes kicking the snot out of them with their prices and let's face it, a good Ruger revolver is sturdy and well built . . . and I would classify many of theirs as "good basic revolvers" - as I was saying above.

[376Steyr]

How many gun companies didn't survive the previous Great Depression? Seven years of tight times for consumers has to be hurting, despite the last surge of panic buying. It could be worse; they could be Colt.

[tomme boy]

Its all by design. When one company owns just about every other, they will get rid of everything to keep just the one around. Then they too will be thrown under the bus.

[Zouave 58]

Speculation is that if S&W wins the new military contract with the M&P 45acp, they may leave the revolver business entirely for a period of time due to production demands. Obviously, EDM barrels and Mim internals have not improved things and , of course, the S&W revolver internal design is over 100 years old with a few tweaks and getting hard to manufacture cost effectively. My guess is as well that the revolver market is shrinking in comparison to the auto market. So I wonder how long S&W will stay in the revolver business. I wonder as well what will become of them if they don't win the contract to replace the Beretta 92. Fortunately, there are a lot of good used Smiths around and even though replacement parts are getting scarce there should be an ample supply of S&W wheel guns for the foreseeable future.

[williamwaco]

"Slump" is another example of the liberals using the truth to lie.

Don't make a fuss about these numbers. I am making them up. But they do explain, by example, what they are talking about.

The past couple of years, gun sales have been 200 to 300 percent above normal.

Early this year for a few months, they "slumped" to only about 150% of normal.

That slump was totally erased by Ferguson and they are now back to very high levels.

I read somewhere that the weekend they announced the verdict, the BATF received an all time record high number of background check requests.

[JohnnyFlake]

Take a serious look at what has happened since the last big, horribly tragic school shooting, from about two years ago. Almost immediately, all ammo simply disappeared from the shelves and many types and models of firearms became all but impossible to find. My, My, and then the long, ridiculous contrived (or maybe not) complete shortage of ammo, powder, primers, etc. for almost two years. The long two year and ongoing shortage of many styles of handguns and long guns (more so handguns), much of which really makes little sense. Anyway, as a result, firearm prices for handguns and many long guns are ridiculously high and ammo is much more expensive that it's ever been. As the say, all is fair in love and war and retail sales!

The real life problem is, how many hard working families, in this stagnant economy can afford to buy a $600 or $700 or much, much more expensive handgun? How many can afford $1200 / $1500 and much, much more for longs guns? Also, how many can afford to buy the ammo needed to practice and develop a small stash at today's prices?

Ruger is still doing it right with offering reasonable prices on most of there handguns and long guns.

S&W and Colt pricing is way, way out of reality, of what the average family buyer can afford!!!

[silverado]

I for one hate the m&p trigger, and yes the new ones too. They bend. My glock does not, not my beretta, nor any of my revilvers, or 1911s I have owned, etc. That is why I am selling my m&p (second one).

[MrWolf]

I did't like my M&P trigger either, but knew that before I bought. Dropped in the Apex tactical and love it!

[Frank46]

This was on MSN today. Think market saturation and prices. Good handguns aren't cheap and I think most of you will agree. S&W has been turning out handguns these last couple of years as fast as they can. I've been on the S&W forums and not a day goes by that you don't hear about someone having problems with a new gun. Canted barrels, messed up scandium cylinders erroding due to being fired and the list could go on. OK you cann them up and they send a tag so you can send it back for warranty work. That firearm should have not left the factory in the first place. And how many can they make before just about everyone has one or a better way of saying it is that the market has reached the saturation point. 'Member the CB craze years ago?. Just about every thing that had four wheels had a cb in it. Then a few years later the tide had changed and very few cb's were being sold. I still have my midland and a radioshack handheld. When someone is prepared to shell out $800-900 or more for a handgun they have every right to expect that wit was made of the best materials, best possible machining and fitting and has been checked out by QC control. From what I have heard the buyer is now the QC expert and ok send it back. That's costing S&W mucho bucks right there.I have a bunch of s&w's but the majority are the older models. Frank

[Thin Man]

This year I had 2 occasions to request parts from S&W. Both times I called their response was that they were using all their parts for new firearm production and for the repair of those firearms returned to their own facility (for both warranty and older firearm paid repair). All parts orders were delayed and wait time is long. It took several phone calls and 4 months for the first order to arrive, then 3 months for the second. In both cases the owners were boiling mad over the delays but the parts were necessary to make the firearms functional. But wait, there's more. These orders overlapped. It got to the point that I was calling for both parts orders with a single call. I hated having to call the factory several times but the owners were throwing fits wanting their repairs completed. With my last call I spoke with a gentleman who sounded like he had the authority to make things happen. 3 weeks after that call both orders arrived together in one shipment. One month later a matching shipment of parts for the first order arrived. Then, one month after that, a matching shipment of parts for the second order arrived. My impression was that my orders got lost and overlapped each other. Is this in any way associated with loss of profits and customer confidence? Both of my customers were happy to finally have their repairs completed but their willingness to buy another S&W was greatly diminished. One kept his pistol, the other traded off his as quickly as he could.

Thin Man

[JSnover]

Hmmm . . . . maybe they should hunt up their old tooling and start making some good basic revolvers like the old M & Ps?
Then they really would be in the crapper!

[Love Life]

I have almost bought a couple new S&W revolvers over the last couple years, but in the end I always go hunt up an older version. I got burned real bad by a Performance Center model and have been leery every since.

The last revolver I was looking to get was one of the new 25 models in 45 Colt. All the NIB guns looked like somebody had removed the cylinder, put it in a lathe, and single point cut the turn line in, Flat out unacceptable.

Their plastic guns hold no interest to me since I am Glock guy and the S&W trigger on the M&P REALLY SUCKS!!

However, it's not just a S&W thing using the customer as the final QC. Colt has been doing it for longer than I have been allowed to legally buy handguns.

IMO, the current crop of stories about firearms manufacturers losing sales and money is due to quite a few things. Price too high, a large market of used guns, years of recession, lack of ammo, lack of faith in the product, etc.

[Airman Basic]

I've been salivating over a Smith model 57 in my LGS. a new model with the lock. Y'all keep tellin' me how bad the new ones are so maybe I can forget about this one? The tag price is $1,000. Ack!

[mold maker]

S&W is only selling current production which is over priced and way under quality. The two I've owned were not as well made as some of the current import ex military. Both had fit and finish problems and one had a sight screw that broke 3 times before I traded it for a new Ruger, and 800 rounds of ammo.

[9.3X62AL]

A recent experience with S&W's Performance Center added a little light to a largely darkened picture, but new-production S&W products of any kind to not draw me. At all. Someone else makes a MUCH better version of what S&W and Colt were once known for, and usually for less money. It is sad, but I don't see any more of my money going toward a new Colt or S&W product--not at the prices charged, and certainly not with the finish issues I've seen over the past 3-4 years......when able to actually see them. I have almost totally lost confidence in both makers.

[pretzelxx]

If the military buys any firearm that has a polymer receiver, it will last about two field exercises. That's being generous. The m&p are not actually meant for military. The triggers are plastic for crying out loud!!

[FergusonTO35]

My two 9mm's are Glock. I'm really not in love with the guns themselves as much as I love having parts available everywhere and tons of aftermarket stuff to tweak the pistol to my liking. I used to have a Ruger P95 and SR9c. Good guns but very little you could do to change them if you didn't like some aspect, most parts could only be gotten from Ruger. Many say Ruger has already run out of parts for the P95.

[Green Frog]

Let's see; first we take a bunch of proven and popular designs and modify them to the whim of accountants, lawyers and anti-gunners so interest among the general public takes a dump. No problem, we'll just sell them to agencies that have buyers who won't have any real knowledge of what a gun should be. :bigsmyl2:

What's that? Agencies are going to semi-auto Wonder Nines? We've got a couple of good Nines that work great, let's see how cheaply and poorly we can make them and sell them to those agencies. Wait! Somebody is making them out of cheap plastic now... no problem, we can make a cheap copy of Combat Tupperware. Now if we don't have the brand diluted and damaged enough, let's crank out a bunch of AR-15 clones... it's not like everybody and his brother is already making them! :?

The rumble that is drowning out this thread is from Horace and Daniel spinning in their graves. I defy anyone to really be able to point out even one really intelligent business and gun manufacturing decision made in Springfield over the last two decades. Rant over! :violin:

Froggie

PS I almost forgot, let's raise prices all out of proportion to costs and inflations, after all we have a brand name to trade on!! [smilie=b:

[starmac]

Hasn't S&W been selling everything as fast as they can make it, junk or not, bad customer service or not. If any firearm manufacturer goes broke after the last 6 years, they have some serious management problems.
I just read yesterday, or maybe the day before, where S&W just finalized a deal to aquire some more companies to the tune of 135 million cash. It would be nice to be broke that way.

[starmac]

I mis spoke, the company they just bought was a mear 130.5 million cash, but would still like to be that broke. lol

[waco]

My wife and I have 6 S&W guns in the house. They range from some of my favorite to just so so.

The M&P compact 9mm I bought my wife is blah. Should have bought a Glock.

Her Lady Smith .357 on the other hand is a beauty!

I have a M&P15 Sport. Box stock. Crummy trigger, but fun, cool factor is nice. Everyone needs an AR, right?

I have a 642 as a summer time carry gun. Love it. No issues with this one.

My 29-5 .44Mag Is high on my favorite list. She is super slick. Action and trigger are really nice. She gets babied with mild loads and 429421 Boolits.

Last but not least is my 1968 K38. Super accurate and just all around sweet revolver.

I'll hunt and peck for older S&W guns from here out. I'm not to impressed with new stuff. If the price is right on older stuff, I'll grab it if I can. Just my 2 cents....
Waco

[Who's this Guy ?]

The last time I looked a which was a year or so ago a brand new model 10 .38 special with rubber grips was pushing 1K. Why would anybody pay that much when you can buy a used one cheaper. Why even make them models anymore when all the public seems to want is black plastic autos which I am not a fan of.

[Zouave 58]

S&W has been under the thumb of the bean counters for a very long time and they have altered their manufacturing standards not for the better. Yes, it was true that they could sell almost anything during the panic market but now as things seem be returning to historic sales norms they are going to have to deal with knowledgeable consumers once again. I think most of us want the fit and finish of the current production to rival the 1960-1970 period guns and the trigger pulls to be smooth, light and consistent. Unfortunately, Smith is trying to build a hundred year old operating system with current technology and it just doesn't adapt. I hate to say it but I don't think Smith can produce a first class revolver any longer, they no longer have the older machinery, production lines and PEOPLE to do it. The craftsmen are all retired and gone. Ruger has kept to its vision as a firearm manufacturer for shooters; S&W has become a manufacturer that just happens to make guns.

[Zouave 58]

S&W has been under the thumb of the bean counters for a very long time and they have altered their manufacturing standards not for the better. Yes, it was true that they could sell almost anything during the panic market but now as things seem be returning to historic sales norms they are going to have to deal with knowledgeable consumers once again. I think most of us want the fit and finish of the current production to rival the 1960-1970 period guns and the trigger pulls to be smooth, light and consistent. Unfortunately, Smith is trying to build a hundred year old operating system with current technology and it just doesn't adapt. I hate to say it but I don't think Smith can produce a first class revolver any longer, they no longer have the older machinery, production lines and PEOPLE to do it. The craftsmen are all retired and gone. Ruger has kept to its vision as a firearm manufacturer for shooters; S&W has become a manufacturer that just happens to make guns.

[cuzinbruce]

Maybe it is the built in lock. I won't own a firearm with one.

[Love Life]

I've looked at a few of the new revolvers and the quality just doesn't equal the price.

[dragon813gt]

I'm very happy w/ my 586. It's part of their classic line I believe. Fit and finish is fine and it was worth the money. Sure I can buy a Ruger cheaper. But look at the price of used Rugers. They don't hold their value as well. Like any firearm it's up to the buyer to determine how much they're willing to pay. People are willing to pay more for a S&W. Same could be said about Colts to a lesser extent. At least S&W makes and sells firearms to the public.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have to agree with williamwaco, I need more information about the actual numbers.
I cannot begin to explain how much I hate and distrust the press. "Slump" could mean damn near anything, including fewer sales than yesterday.....
I will say based on my very informal observation, sales of new S&W revolvers seem to be down. They're not hitting the right price point. When there are Rugers in the display case for far less money next to the S&W's; it's hard to sell that expensive revolver with a two piece barrel and that ridiculous lock.

[robertbank]

I suspect the big drop in sales might be the AR platform. Prices have come down in the US and where shortages once existed none exist today. From what I hear there is a saturation point. The Smith revolvers probably don`t make up much of their sales anymore. The M&P line would be their big seller and it is not a big ticket item but profitable.

The debt issue can be solved by a share offering particularly if the company is suffering from cash flow problems.

Take Care

Bob

[rintinglen]

I thought MSN meant Mostly Stupid Noise. I sure didn't mistake it for a professional journalist outfit. S&W seems to be selling lots and lots of guns in my neck of the woods. They had the money to buy Battenfield Technologies, which will help them when the Gun Salesman in Chief finally leaves office. They will have accessories for sale that will remain in demand even once the flood tide of gun sales recedes. Firearms are more durable than targets and target stands.
And Chrony's.
I have guns that have been shot many thousands of times, and they are still good, functional fire arms. You shoot a Chrony just once with a 44 and it quits working.

[FergusonTO35]

Around here among people I know personally, when they want a new revolver other than a snub .38 they want Ruger instead of S&W by a margin of at least 5 to 1. My local shop sells every GP, Blackhawk, Single Six, and LCR they can get ahold of. There are people trying to order the Single Seven and they cant find any. The S&W snubbies sell well but the larger ones just sit there for weeks and months. The one and only new style S&W 66 they got in was under the glass for five months before it sold.

I love the new style S&W 67 and would even put up with the stupid lock to have one. But $650.00 is a "good" price on one and $700.00 is more likely. The only handgun in the world I am willing to spend that kind of cash on would be a Browning Hi-Power. I'm content to wait for a nice used 67 for $400.00 or less to pop up.

[FlatTop45LC]

Around here among people I know personally, when they want a new revolver other than a snub .38 they want Ruger instead of S&W by a margin of at least 5 to 1. My local shop sells every GP, Blackhawk, Single Six, and LCR they can get ahold of. There are people trying to order the Single Seven and they cant find any. The S&W snubbies sell well but the larger ones just sit there for weeks and months. The one and only new style S&W 66 they got in was under the glass for five months before it sold.

I love the new style S&W 67 and would even put up with the stupid lock to have one. But $650.00 is a "good" price on one and $700.00 is more likely. The only handgun in the world I am willing to spend that kind of cash on would be a Browning Hi-Power. I'm content to wait for a nice used 67 for $400.00 or less to pop up.
I paid $800 OTD for new Hi Power for the wife gladly, but a Mountain Gun is the only S&W I would pay that for.

[robertbank]

Quality costs and this isn't 1966. Based upon inflation alone revolvers should be selling above $1K if they were made with the same attention as 50 odd years ago. That is retail not what the manufacturer gets.

Take Care

Bob

[DR Owl Creek]

I wouldn't count Smith & Wesson out just yet. All gun manufacturer's sales are down from the last several years.

According to the latest quarterly reports which the SEC requires to be filed, Smith & Wesson's profits were down 45% compared to the same quarter last year. Ruger's profits were down 49.2% over the same period last year.

Dave

[Geezer in NH]

The big panic buy is over for guns. I hope they buy an ammo plant and make 22lr. Also they need to get out of MA.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta good commentary flowing here. I still think more highly of the older S&W and Colt variants than I do of current examples by both companies. The two recent upper echelon Colt 1911-series pistols I looked at seemed to be good examples (XSE Commander and GM), but I would steer clear of the more basic and lower-priced items of that type--Ruger would be my choice for a basic 1911. I came very close to snagging a new Colt Commander XSE just before we moved......shoulda/woulda/coulda again.

[FLHTC]

Its all by design. When one company owns just about every other, they will get rid of everything to keep just the one around. Then they too will be thrown under the bus.

i think you have the right idea

[robertbank]

On a more positive note I own four M&P's. I have a FS and PRO in both 9MM and 40cal. The 9 MM FS has the PRO's internals, the PRO (my main IDPA SSP Gun has the Apex Competition Kit in it). My 40 FS is my bedside gun and is stock (slide & barrel from a US Police parts sell - the frame & internals are stock from a 9MM), while the 40 PRO (My US Steel gun) has the APEX FSS package in it. In a total of 20K I have no failures to feed of any kind. I did have a striker break on me and that occurred on my first edition FS9MM. I knew that original strikers were prone to breakage and should have replaced it before it broke no issues since.

I find the gun's ergonomics so much better than any of the four iterations of Glocks. Accuracy is spot on. Unlike the Glocks the guns are almost impossible to limp wrist.

Smith has recently changed the 9MM barrels twist rate to 1 - 10 which should improve accuracy in the guns when using longer 147 gr bullets. I ordered one for my PRO and will have it on Monday. Total cost to me $85.03 Cdn plus tax.

I would expect the M&P will be the RCMP's next pistol.

While American made products generally can be hit and miss in my view the M&P is a hit and the gun is well worth a look if anyone is in the market for a polymer striker fired pistol. For steel, I go CZ from the Czech Republic. Those folks no quality and thrive because of it.

Take Care

Bob

[OuchHot!]

Two years ago, a prof in the Az cop academy said SnW was doing everything possible to unseat Glock in police sales and succeeding. I doubt that short run will see too much of an impact on SnW if the continue inroads in the cop market. Long run it could be like Colt who seemed to throw the public under a bus while courting military sales.

[robertbank]

What has changed is the LEO/Military market is so much bigger than the retail market. Not only does S&W get the initial order for guns but they also get the maintenance end as well and that in itself is large.

I know you can't compare Canadian market vs US but up here there are no agencies that allow police to use their own handguns on duty. From what i have read in the US back in the day it was quite common for officers to supply their own firearms. That has never been the case widely up here. If I said never happened I would not be far off.
Smith & Wesson has taken a large bight out of the Glock LEO sales in the US and certainly have made inroads in Glock's market up here. S&W will have the edge over Glock for the RCMP contract when it comes up. S&W has been the Forces supplier virtually since day one and are favoured to win the contract if and when the RCMP contract goes out to bid. Smith will likely buy back all the old guns - 5946. Under the agreements between our two countries their are military procurement formulas whereby for every dollar Canada spends on US made equipment an equal pr partial offset in US purchases are made in Canada so there is a real reason for Canada to source US made equipment over other foreign suppliers.

Take Care

Bob

[Tackleberry41]

There is a slump in sales. Friend works at a range/shop, he cant give away ARs right now. The LGS near me has had the same stack of ARs in the rack for quite a while. Just like wasnt to long ago you couldn't find a 10/22 take down, LGS has several in the rack, again cant give em away.

I dont really know much about their wheel guns, I have a 38 airweight, the ex bought and never asked for. Nice gun, but I put some apex parts in it and polished some stuff. Never had an issue with the lock, but tempted to get rid of it just in case. Very happy with my S&W shield, and my little bodyguard 380.

I think the individual shops have alot to do with things moving or not. Place my friend works has had the same guns in the case for months, but their over priced, he doesnt set em boss does. I was going to see about him ordering me something. But even at his employee pricing, I can simply walk into my LGS and get it cheaper. LGS near me has a constantly changing selection of pistols, but his prices are really good.

ARs is simply a case of market saturation. Many bought over priced ones during the panic, and now people have what they need. People I know dont buy a complete rifle anyways, their assembling them.

[Uncle R.]

This has been an interesting thread.
I'm saddened to read that S&W quality has dropped so far.
I've been hankering for a 4" 66 and watching the asking prices on Armslist for a couple of years now. I can say with considerable confidence that used S&W revolvers are climbing in price faster than inflation. I've long been a fan of S&W revolvers and it looks like this may be the time to pry open the wallet and buy some of those nice used ones I see now and then.

Uncle R.

[sargenv]

Oddly enough, in the action games, S&W revolvers are pretty much what 95% of us use.. With the advent of the 6.5" 929, if they can keep these producing, there will be a lot of new revolver shooters in the USPSA game that will also cross over to the ICORE game.. Until they are a bit less rare, I am "stuck" with an earlier 627 in 38 super.. I would prefer the 6.5" 929 since it would likely handle similar to my 6 shot 610 but would be great for a minor 8 shot revo in USPSA.. I think in all 12 or so years of shooting USPSA/ICORE, I've seen one or two Colts.. and a handful of Rugers.

[Char-Gar]

The post-Sandy Hook great American gun buying binge is over! For a time, Americans would line up to buy whatever was made at whatever price it was sold. Now gun makers must once again compete for sales with their products, quality, price and customer service. Smith and Wesson is not doing well in the competition.

Today Smith and Wesson's biggest competitor is it's own used handguns.

[robertbank]

Today Smith and Wesson's biggest competitor is it's own used handguns.

That is what really sank Winchester, Marlin and soon Remington if the latter doesn't get their act together. Guns, assuming some care is given, will last more than a lifetime of use. Unfortunately the Harvard Business School does not advocate time frames of a lifetime or more as a business model.

Take Care

Bob

[freebullet]

I picked up a used m&p9 several years back. I loved the ergonomics. Then I pressed the trigger. What a disappointment that turned out to be. I don't modify triggers on my carry guns. If they aren't decent out of the box it goes on the trade off list as I did that m&p.

As far as revolvers go I don't want a railed revolver. Ruger is putting out a much better deal on a sturdy gun. If I were going to buy a new revolver it would be a ruger.

I think their biggest obstacles are quality, market saturation, and corporate greed. Who wants a new gun with a lock on it, costs as much as an antique colt, has a crappy trigger, won't shoot without a magazine in, or from a company that produces guns in a state that hates me and my way of life. No thanks, I'll stick with used and only buy them when it's a deal anyways.

[Airman Basic]

Business may go back up with our new surgeon general who thinks guns should be treated as a public health issue.
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/12/16/dr-manny-confirming-dr-murthy-as-us-surgeon-general-was-mistake/

[FLHTC]

Business may go back up with our new surgeon general who thinks guns should be treated as a public health issue.
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/12/16/dr-manny-confirming-dr-murthy-as-us-surgeon-general-was-mistake/

But liquor isn't? The government is so bass ackwards it isn't funny.

[attrapereves]

Ruger is killing S&W in the revolver market. Rugers are often cheaper, but the quality is the same, if not better. I do not care for semi auto handguns from Ruger as they usually have annoying safeties. I'm a Glock fan, but I do like my M&Ps. The grip feels nicer, but the trigger isn't as great (although it's not as terrible as some make it out to be).

[snowwolfe]

Ruger is still doing it right with offering reasonable prices on most of there handguns and long guns.

S&W and Colt pricing is way, way out of reality, of what the average family buyer can afford!!!

Not really, a new regular 629 costs about the same as a new Redhawk on gunbrokers. Then you have to add a trigger job to the Redhawk to get it anywhere near the 629.