A Keith Bullet Question

[Green Frog]

Before I start the question, let me say that I did already read the first 3 pages or so of the sticky on "The Real Keith Bullet" and I got a little tired of reading about some of the personalities entering into the discussion while I was trying to just find some basic information; no offense, but I just wanted the data. I have owned an old sc Ideal mould in 429421 for a very long time and used it successfully with both 2400 and Unique in my Model 29 to shoot handgun metallic silhouettes as well as just for plain old plinking.

I just won a dc Lyman (or Ideal??) 358429 mould on flea-Bay and will be looking for some folks' favorite family recipes for loads to use with it in my Model 686 with 357 and/or 38 Spl brass and whether it will be possible to make 38 Spl loads that will be short enough to chamber in my 60-4. I'm hoping I'll be able to use up some of this H110 and W296 I've come upon. Both my old 44 bullet and this 357 bullet will have the round bottom lube grooves, but with my rather limited long range shooting ability that should not hurt me too much.

Now after all that background, I know that Keith wrote about shooting reloaded 32 S&W Long and 32-20 rounds (of course he wouldn't have thought the factory versions were worth fooling with!) but I can't remember ever seeing a 32 revolver bullet described as being a Keith design or even a Keith type. Is there a Lyman (or other) mould number someone can point me to as making a truly Keith 32 bullet? If yes, how about a load or two to go with it if one can be found?

Regards & TIA
Green Frog

[GabbyM]

Length in 357 mag. If you load your 358429 to the COL listed in Lyman books. You will be crimping over the top of the front band. That's how they get them short enough to chamber using 357 mag brass. So the data is developed at this COL. I'd personally crimp them into the front band at whatever length is your cylinder length minus about .050". But that's just splitting hairs.
I'd use the 357 mag brass before shooting 38 Special brass in a 357 chamber. Tried it one time and didn't like it. Could of just been the one revolver I was using.

#358429 is a great bullet. Flung a few hundred from 38 Specials just last week out in Arizona. With a little help. Took it coyote calling in the desert but didn't call in any yotes.

Something I noted just a few weeks ago. Over my Chronograph. Our Colt 4 inch barrel 357 mag Trooper shot my 38 Special loads almost 100 fps slower than they were reading from my S&W M15 38 Special 4" barrel. Not sure if the longer cylinder is causing this or the Colts larger throats which run about .359" but no two are quite the same. Lead was shaved at the throats in two of the cylinders. Sharp edges and over size is what I blame this on. Told the grandson he just needs to run a few hundred gas check boolits through that thing to smooth it out. :bigsmyl2:

[fecmech]

Both of my 4 cav Lymans (358429 and 429421) have round lube grooves but nobody has told them that they can't shoot well. Both will stay well inside the 10 ring on a 50 yd bullseye target at 1300 fps off the bench. When I could still see irons I did manage a AAA classification with 429421 in silhouette. They may not the the greatest bullet designs ever made but they are pretty darned good!

[Hang Fire]

I know the short cylinder of the Colt Python almost rules out using the 358429 in .357. I have had this mold for about 40 years and it is one of the best for the .357, in the right handgun.

[cuzinbruce]

I don't believe that Keith ever made up a 32 cal design. However there have been a couple group buys on here for 32 Keith style SWC's. They looked great. However I still mostly use the RCBS 32-098SWC (I think that is the number) in 32/20. But that is not a Keith type design, it is a flat point pretty much like the original 32/20 bullets.
About the 358429 in 357, the S&W Model 28 & 29 (N frames) have a cylinder too short to accept a 357 case with that bullet crimped in the proper groove. I believe the K frame 357's have a longer cylinder and it will work fine. It is a great bullet even though Keith wrote that he had got it a bit too heavy!

[rintinglen]

I have never read nor heard of a 32 "Keith" boolit actually designed by him, and I'm old enough to have read his writings back in Guns and Ammo. Given his propensity for self promotion, I'm pretty sure that had he designed a SWC for the 32-20, he'd have mentioned it in his writings-40 or 50 times. There are a couple of designs on the Accurate website that clearly look as though he designed them, but I think your out of luck going for the trifecta. To the best of my recollection, Keith designed the 358-429, the 358-431, the 358-439, the 429-421, the 429-422, the 452-423, and the 454-424. He may also have designed the 410-459, but I can't remember for sure. I know of no other designs attributed to him for hand gun use.

As for loads for the 358-429, I have used 13.5 grains of 2400 in the 357. Elmer recommended 3.0 grains of Bullseye or 5.0 grains of Unique in the 38 special and both loads worked for me, as did 4.2 grains of ww-231. In my view, this boolit is at it's best in 38 special loads, and you should have no problems with it in any properly cambered 38 Special.

[Catshooter]

Mr. Frog,

Your 358429 will fit (crimped in the crimping groove) just fine in your 60-4 in 38 brass. I will do the same in your 686 in 357 brass.

To the best of my knowledge Keith was happy with the 3118 in the 32-20 and never designed a boolit for it.

I ran a group buy for a "Keith" design in 32 way back when and I think there have been several done since then. 45 2.1 designed it and it is a cutie for sure.


Cat

[StrawHat]

...I ran a group buy for a "Keith" design in 32 way back when and I think there have been several done since then. 45 2.1 designed it and it is a cutie for sure.


Cat...

I have this mold and it is a good one for the 32 WCF. I will eventually get around to trying it in a 32 Long.

[Bigslug]

This one from the Hensley & Gibbs reference site is kinda Keithish: http://www.hensleygibbs.com/molds/65.jpg It's at least a SWC with what appears to be three equal length driving bands.This site does a pretty good job of saying what was Elmer's design, and his name isn't tagged to any of the .32's. My understanding is that H&G took on all of Keith's original blueprints after Lyman pissed in his Cheerios, but it's possible if he DID do a .32, it never made it onto anyone's radar.

Accurate has the 31-105K. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-105K-D.png or the 31-120K if you want to go big http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-120K-D.png.

[Char-Gar]

I am not a fan of 358429 in 357 cases as I have to deep seat them to get them to work in all of my Smith and Wesson 357 Magnum pistols.

I am a huge fan of 359429 in the 38 Special cases in 38 Special revolvers. They work very, very well for me with the bullet crimped in the crimp groove.

[Outpost75]

The modern #311008 has been changed over the years to make it better fit .30 caliber rifles and the profile has been made sharper and the meplat smaller. Because the original bullet was intended for use with black powder, it did not require the crimp groove, which modern versions have.

123564

Accurate's 31-114D and 31-134D are adaptations of the old Modern Bond design for the .32 S&W Long, which work splendidly in the .32 H&R Magnum and .327 Federal. They also work well in the .303 British as-cast at .314-.315" or in .30 cal. rifles for gallery or small game loads with 5 grains of Bullseye when sized to fit the chamber throat diameter, typically .311" in a .30-'06.123563
123562

[Wayne Smith]

Froggie, I have the Lee Group Buy 32 Keith mold if you would like to try a few.

[Green Frog]

Thanks, Wayne. Perhaps as I get a little farther along on this project I'll take you up on that offer. Do you make the trek up the river to Richmond for any of the gun shows there?

Froggie

[Wayne Smith]

Nah, between woodwork, cooking, hunting and just plain taking care of LOML (she broke her Fibia a month or so ago, just now getting back on hr feet) I've bout given up on gun shows. Maybe in the spring. Didn't even go to the local Norfolk show, was up a tree.

[Green Frog]

Nah, between woodwork, cooking, hunting and just plain taking care of LOML (she broke her Fibia a month or so ago, just now getting back on hr feet) I've bout given up on gun shows. Maybe in the spring. Didn't even go to the local Norfolk show, was up a tree.

OK, I'll let you know when I get to that point. I know Dale53 also has one from that group buy, so between the two of you I should be able to catch one of you casting or with some on hand when I get ready to think more about that mould design. Thanks again for the generous offer!

Froggie

PS do you have a reference to that GB thread? I'd love to see the drawing (if any) that went with it. :grin:

[StrawHat]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?34945-Catshooters-32-Keith-re-run

pics in post #3.

[smlekid]

how about this one shoots well in my Win '92
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=1299&osCsid=9kcar3f1onqinh1inafsujv0g5

[GabbyM]

One thing I noticed with delight when shooting heavy swinging steel plate target. My 177 grain #358429 copy running 900 fps out of my 38 Special. Causes me to wait until the target comes back after the 2nd fast shot. In detail: two fast shots and the plate is swung straight out parallel to the ground, pause then start a rate of fire for the next four shots. Pull trigger back, pause then break the shot as the plate come back down. My service revolvers with a set of inexpensive Hogue grips. Recover from recoil faster than the 45 acp 1911's. A fact that didn't go unnoticed by the two men I was shooting with last week. Both of whom used to carry 38 Special service revolvers With AZ Corrections until recently when they went with Glocks. The big bullet is definitely my "hunting" bullet for my 38 Specials.

OP asked for favorite loads. Well I was burning Hodgdon Universal. 4.5 grains listed in Lyman's 4th as non +P 912 fps. I do not load to +P because there's no way for me to tell if my had loads may be running more than listed pressure with the non +P load. I check them over my chrony to be certain loads do not exceed published velocity. +P load is 940 fps. Have some PMC cases here from mixed head stamp brass I purchased. It weights about 9 grains heavier than American brass. Yields about 35 fps faster velocity over the Chrony than American brass with same powder charge. I boxed it up separate after loading then save it as my +P loads. It's handy as I can separate it out again by head stamp if loads get mixed in my pocket. I have some very old and nice S&W's here that are not +P rated and save them to only play with light wad-cutter loads. Sad thing is I heard the plant in Australia where all the H-Clays powders were made burned down. Prospect of acquiring anymore looks bleak. It was the highest velocity load listed in Lyman's new book.

[Outpost75]

The Saeco #325 resembles a #452423 which shrunk in the washing machine and works well in the .32 S&W Long and the H&R Magnum, if you don't over-drive it. I liad 2.5 grains of Bullseye in the. 32 S&W Long ans 3 grains in the H&R Magnum. 7 grains of #2400 also works well in the HRM.

[Bigslug]

Hmmm. . .the concept of a .32-20 single shot is starting to speak to me. . .and this thread isn't helping.:veryconfu

NOE has this one that looks like a shrunken 358429: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=1291&osCsid=ro2jrqfnbkgqqmurps8mcm0m61

[Green Frog]

Yes, that's the one I'm looking at too, only a brass DC because brass is so classy! :D

Froggie

[Green Frog]

Well, my Lyman DC 358429 mould just got to me in today's mail, and I am quite pleased. While the lube groove is not quite as square as the original Keith design, it is definitely not the round bottom style I thought I would have to settle for. In fact, the more I look at it, the more I like it!

Now I'm starting to get psyched about the NOE mould mentioned above so I will have "Keith style" moulds for all three of my most commonly shot revolver calibers. It seems like these will be about the most useful bullets I can find for long range shooting with my revolvers... a Model 29 in 8 3/8, a 6" Model 686 and of course my 4" "Model 616." Now to carve out some more time for casting, loading, and shooting! ;)

Froggie

[.22-10-45]

In Post #9, Bigslug mentioned the Hensley & Gibbs # 65 mould. Last weekend I used this mould for the first time...bought it from a fellow Boolit member in swapin & tradin. this one has a rather long truncated nose with a small radius on meplat..and sharp shoulder, with one generous rounded lube groove..definatly swc shape. Looking forward to using it in an original 7 1/2" Colt Bisley .32WCF.

[Yodogsandman]

I bought a 4 cavity, Lyman 358429 mold with gang handles yesterday at a gun show for $30. A guy wanted to buy it from me before I got my change back! It was a little beat up on the sprue plate lip and handle but, looked like it would cast OK.

I cast some up when I got home. Warmed the mold up on the hot plate, it cast great boolits, no rejects other than 5 from dents on the base from de-molding. The lube groove is almost straight with just a slight taper for release. As cast weight was 168gr and about .358" diameter. Alloy was COWW with about 1% Sn. I'm wondering what loads to try for 357 mag. I have some Blue dot, Unique and 2400.

[cs86]

Anyone know if there is a reason why the Lyman 358429 went from a round lube groove to a squared one? I prefer round just because I think they fill out better and fall out of the mold easier.

[Green Frog]

Anyone know if there is a reason why the Lyman 358429 went from a round lube groove to a squared one? I prefer round just because I think they fill out better and fall out of the mold easier.

Actually, it started out (Keith's original design) with the square grease groove (to hold lube better in his concept.) The round bottom lube groove are easier for moulding and probably for making, so Lyman, against Elmer's wishes, made the change. I haven't cast any with it yet, but it appears that mine has a sort of hybrid pattern with rounded sides and a flat bottom. Who knows what really works best??

Froggie

[StrawHat]

Actually, it started out (Keith's original design) with the square grease groove (to hold lube better in his concept.) The round bottom lube groove are easier for moulding and probably for making, so Lyman, against Elmer's wishes, made the change. I haven't cast any with it yet, but it appears that mine has a sort of hybrid pattern with rounded sides and a flat bottom. Who knows what really works best??

Froggie

The editor of Handloader magazine did some testing and reports that with stout loads, like Elmer preferred, the round grooves tended to collapse and the squared grooves tended to remain square. I am not nearly that clinical, both have shot well enough for me to be interchangeable.

[rintinglen]

My Lyman 429-421 has round lube grooves, my RCBS 44-250 k has "squarish" lube grooves. Shooting them at magnum velocities I could not see a dimes worth of difference between them on the target. I personally prefer casting with the round ones as they drop out a smigeon easier, but any difference is minuscule. I think ol' Elmer just got his dander up because somebody else tinkered with HIS​ design, not because of any real problem resulting from the change.

[BAGTIC]

I use the SAECO #325 in 32 S&W Long and .32 H&R. It casts 104 grains of WW. In the H&R my load is exactly 1200 fps. Tumble lubed with JPW it exhibits zero leading. At 25 yards it shoots 1.5-2 inch groups from one of the original H&R revolvers which is about as good as I shoot anything any more.

[Gus Youmans]

Green Frog,

I have one of the NOE .32 caliber 115 grain molds and it looks exactly like a scaled down 358429. Unfortunately, I only recently began casting with the mold and cannot comment on how it shoots. I also have one of the Accurate 105K molds and can confirm that it is a great bullet.


Gus Youmans

[Tar Heel]

Accurate Molds

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-105K-D.png

[Geezer in NH]

My Lyman 429-421 has round lube grooves, my RCBS 44-250 k has "squarish" lube grooves. Shooting them at magnum velocities I could not see a dimes worth of difference between them on the target. I personally prefer casting with the round ones as they drop out a smigeon easier, but any difference is minuscule. I think ol' Elmer just got his dander up because somebody else tinkered with HIS​ design, not because of any real problem resulting from the change.I'll buy that!!