Real World Experience: 30-30 Ackley Improved in Lever Guns

[birch]

I have began my quest to turn my Henry 30-30 into a bench/paper gun, and I came across some information on the 30AI.

I am just looking for actual experiences from those who have made the conversion. I am also interested in hearing from those who have rented/own the chamber reamer and reamed the chamber yourselves. What, if any issues did you run into? What should I watch out for? Should I just have the gun farmed out to a "real" smith.

Some say that the headspace must be checked, but others say that since it headspaces on the rim, a headspace gauge is not needed. Also, the Henry is basically a Marlin 336. There is one guy on another website who claimed that his 336 had troubles with feeding/ejecting after the conversion.

I am basically looking for any and all information from those who have experience with the round in the levergun. Contender or Handi Rifle information is welcomed if it highlights ballistics. I am not looking for opinions from others who have not done the conversion and think the 30-30 is fine the way it is.

[MT Chambers]

You might be as well to look for a .307 Win., could save you money on gunsmithing, reloading dies, etc.

[birch]

I don't want a .307 Winchester. I could also look for a savage 99 in any number of calibers--I just want a wildcat 30-30 on a gun a love dearly.

[frank505]

I've got a Winchester model 64a in 30/30 improved. With lever evolution powder it runs 2325 with an saeco 180.

[birch]

Thanks Frank, that the stuff I am looking for! Did you do the conversion yourself? How is accuracy?

[JSH]

I will have to do some digging for the 30-30AI results to see if I still have it. It is on an encore, so we headed towards 30-40 Krag data when we extrapolated a top end load.
Birch, dunno what you are really after in your quest. Performance or accuracy or both. If you have not fooled with wildcats before this one is fairly easy to start with. I won't get into wether to set the barrel back or not as that opens up a can of worms. The AI's were meant to clean up a poor chamber and the barrel set back gives a better throat, but not new.
Be aware that you may have to burn several more grains of powder to get the same speed as the factory chamber. So it is no magic fix on these. More cubic inches requires more fuel.
As to the Henry being equal to a Marlin, maybe in design but not in material.

Frank, do you have any before and after data you could share with birch? The encore barrel is not a rechamber so I don't have any info of that type and I won't quote from a manual.

[frnkeore]

It isn't a lever gun but, I rechamber a 340 Savage to Imp. I didn't shoot it before the rechamber so, I have no info on improvement. In addition to the Imp. I re-throated it at the same time with a freebore and shallow leade angle.

It shot very well with velocitys in the 300 Sav range with 150 gr spitzers and the load that I will give was 1 1/4" at 100 yd.

311291 bullet #2 alloy, 22" factory barrel.
35.0 gr WC 852 (H380 speed) My powder was compaired with H380 and was within 20 fps.
2131 fps
ES 26
Sd 10.2

Frank

[Alan in GA]

I would suggest that you have the headspace of your rifle checked BEFORE any rechambering. Some factory rifles are close to having excessive headspace even in factory form. That does not create the problem that a 'tight' headspace factory rifle can if it fails to chamber EVERY factory round fed to it. THAT gun will usually get returned for repair.
So goes the larger chambers of production rifles.
I reamed a Handi Rifle to 30/30AI and had fun with it. Accuracy did not change and if anything might have gotten better.
I used .308 Win FL dies to 'neck size' my formed 30/30AI cases. I never did need to FL size them. Back then 30/30 cases were so common at local dirt road 'shooting areas' you could pick up all the once fired cases you wanted to.
A rim is used to determine headspace on a first firing of a new factory or full length sized round. After it has been fireformed [rimmed cases] the shoulder can be used for future head spacing if the factory rim recess in barrel face is sloppy[excessive].
Sometimes an Ackley Improved will give a bit of hesitation when chambering from the magazine even in bolt action rifles- I have a 250 Savage Ack Imp, and had 30/06 and .257 Robt AI, and 17 Ackley Hornets. I can't speak for lever guns. I doubt you would get much increase in performance from a lever gun but extraction will always be easy with the less tapered case body walls. [Ackley Imp. rounds].
Standard 30/30 Win can be loaded to acceptable velocitys. I think I would leave a lever gun 'as is', and build a bolt action in Ackley Improved 'something' if you want to play. I did, and don't regret it. However was it 'necessary'?...naw, just an itch I had to scratch.
I hope this helps,...been down the Ackley Improved road a lot. IF not just delete 'er off. : )

[frnkeore]

More Imp. data:

170 gr jacketed

39.0 gr WC852 (H380 speed)

2292 fps ave. only 2 shots recorded

150 Jacketed

41.0 gr WC852 (H380 speed)

2464 fps
30 Es
11.3 Sd
1.4 group

42.0 gr

2502 fps
31 Es
12.3 SD
1.62 group

42.5 gr

2534 fps
26 ES
9.2 SD
2.12 group

Federal rifle primers where use for all data.

Frank

[birch]

Thanks for everything--that is some stuff to chew on.

I am surprised that the velocity is not that much different than "hot" 30-30 loads.

[frnkeore]

One thing to remember about "hot" standard 30/30 is at some point with the rear bolt lockup on both Win and Marlin, they will "lockup" at some point and you won't get them back open w/o a lot of trouble. Ackleys says that with the larger dia. shoulder with the steep shoulder angle, the AI won't do that. I have tried it in a lever so, I can't say.

If you look at Ackleys data, he gives, as follows:

150 gr bullet

36.0 gr 3031, 2565 fps

Nothing in between

38.0 gr 3031, 2700 fps

I think you could get away with the 36.0 load ok but, I'd work up slowly to the 38.0 gr load.

Frank

[Alan in GA]

I loaded 37 gr 3031 / 150 j bullet in my Handi 30/30 AI and felt it was too hot a load for that rifle. Ejection was fine but I started to think maybe I would be better off with a bolt action rifle if I wanted to load 'hot'. A 30/30AI is a fun round but I believe the attempt should not be made to make it perform like a .308 Win.
Like they say: "if you want .308 performance, buy a .308".

[micky_blue]

Look at the contender wildcats. Jdj, bellmun or bullberry to name a few.

[birch]

150 gr. @2565 should reach right out there!

OK. that is some data that interests me. Any suggestions on where and what type of reamer I should rent?

Also, for those that have done the conversion on handi-rifles or contenders--What should I watch out for as I ream? What part of the process requires the most skill? I have heard that some amateur smiths have been known to leave rough chambers. What part of the process would cause this problem and how can it be remedied if it happens? What is the "worst case scenerio" that would require a rebarrel if I screw up with the reamer?

I did the cyclinder throats on my old model vaquero, and it was a fairly easy process that only required some steady pressure and a flat plane as i turned the reamer.

[frank505]

I bought this rifle already chambered. Im not sure its worth the extra money for the dies but it does run a little faster than a standard chamber and no case stretch. A 170 Nosler does 2350 if I remember correctly with lever powder. tried a few 130 Speers, but didn't have very many left and haven't seen any for sale. 38 grains of lever powder did 2593, if I ever find anymore 130 Speers Ill try more powder. That's a good bullet by the way, exits deer and antelope about always.

[KragNut]

It isn't a lever gun but, I rechamber a 340 Savage to Imp. I didn't shoot it before the rechamber so, I have no info on improvement. In addition to the Imp. I re-throated it at the same time with a freebore and shallow leade angle.

It shot very well with velocitys in the 300 Sav range with 150 gr spitzers and the load that I will give was 1 1/4" at 100 yd.

311291 bullet #2 alloy, 22" factory barrel.
35.0 gr WC 852 (H380 speed) My powder was compaired with H380 and was within 20 fps.
2131 fps
ES 26
Sd 10.2

Frank

I realize this is six years old, and I just recently joined CastBoolit's. But isn't H380 kind kind of a slow burning powder for the .30-30 A.I.? Have you had any experience with IMR 3031 or Rel-7 and lighter bullets like 125 to 135? I have a Savage / Springfield 840 that I had converted to A. I. It is the carbine version, so far I haven't really sat down and did much with it. I tried 38 gr. of H4895 and 130 gr. Speer 130 FP and got velocities in the 2700 range. Didn't shoot for accuracy, just velocity at the moment.

[Don McDowell]

Kragnut, the 30-30 ai is 30-30 in name only. Once the brass is fire formed it becomes something much more similar to a 300 savage. Where people usually miss the mark on most of the AI conversions is to treat it like the parent cartridge.
My counsel to anyone thinking about doing a 30-30 ai, is work up a load in the rifle with the slowest powders generally recommended, then after the rechamber is finished start a ladder load process and work up 2 grains. When the target looks the best is where it's time to quit.
H 414 really shows promise in my rifle, but the accuracy from Ramshot Biggame is outstanding even tho the velocity is somewhat below what one would hope. 748 and RL15 will give velocity that equals the 300 savage.

[Ramjet-SS]

I have a rechambered model 94 AI the velocity gain was 5% but the brass held up wonderfully less stretching etc

[Norske]

P.O. Ackley didn't have real pressure testing done. Remember John Barsness' comments about velocity increasing only 1/4 the increase in powder charge, pressures staying equal. AI is generally a waste of time and $$. If chamber pressure is kept constant, the velocity gain is minimal in all examples, even the popular (in custom rifles) 257 Roberts AI.

[Kelly Country]

I know that this is an old thread which is updated from time to time, but I would like some input if anyone can help. I have, among other M99s, an old take down in 22Savage HP. As I have been thinking about options for re-barrelling it as a backpack rifle for use on both Fallow and Sambar deer here in North East Victoria. I have successfully used both a 99C in 308W in the bush, or an M70 in 375H&H over clear-cuts for sambar, and have been thinking about the takedown in 30AI.
As a 99 will take higher pressures than a 94 or Marlin 336 AND can use a spire pointed bullet, I think this will take the 30AI to another level. Yes, I already have a 99 in 308W, but it's neither a take-down nor a rotary mag. If I can get a 150gn ballistic tip to 2700 out of an 18 inch barrel, it should work well on Sambar. Any thoughts, experience? BTW, I last shot a 28inch Sambar stag, which was about the size of a 3yo Angus steer.

[Wayne Smith]

I know that this is an old thread which is updated from time to time, but I would like some input if anyone can help. I have, among other M99s, an old take down in 22Savage HP. As I have been thinking about options for re-barrelling it as a backpack rifle for use on both Fallow and Sambar deer here in North East Victoria. I have successfully used both a 99C in 308W in the bush, or an M70 in 375H&H over clear-cuts for sambar, and have been thinking about the takedown in 30AI.
As a 99 will take higher pressures than a 94 or Marlin 336 AND can use a spire pointed bullet, I think this will take the 30AI to another level. Yes, I already have a 99 in 308W, but it's neither a take-down nor a rotary mag. If I can get a 150gn ballistic tip to 2700 out of an 18 inch barrel, it should work well on Sambar. Any thoughts, experience? BTW, I last shot a 28inch Sambar stag, which was about the size of a 3yo Angus steer.

How precisely cut is the magazine? That may be your limiting issue, if the magazine cannot hold the larger diameter cartridge.

[FergusonTO35]

Sounds like a Browning BLR takedown in .308 is what you are looking for!

[Wilderness]

I know that this is an old thread which is updated from time to time, but I would like some input if anyone can help. I have, among other M99s, an old take down in 22Savage HP. As I have been thinking about options for re-barrelling it as a backpack rifle for use on both Fallow and Sambar deer here in North East Victoria. I have successfully used both a 99C in 308W in the bush, or an M70 in 375H&H over clear-cuts for sambar, and have been thinking about the takedown in 30AI.
As a 99 will take higher pressures than a 94 or Marlin 336 AND can use a spire pointed bullet, I think this will take the 30AI to another level. Yes, I already have a 99 in 308W, but it's neither a take-down nor a rotary mag. If I can get a 150gn ballistic tip to 2700 out of an 18 inch barrel, it should work well on Sambar. Any thoughts, experience? BTW, I last shot a 28inch Sambar stag, which was about the size of a 3yo Angus steer.

KC - I have a M1899 Savage, formerly .22 HP, now rebarreled with factory Savage .30-30 barrel. Forget about the pointed bullets idea. Magazine limits OAL and requires much deeper seating of pointed bullets, thus reduced cartridge capacity, plus puts them way back off the rifling. In my experience COL for reliable feeding is is 2.500" - 2.525". The Hornady bullets for the LeverEvolution ammo might be OK. Otherwise Sierra 170 or 150 are most accurate, being closest to the rifling, which this rifle requires. If you want extra velocity, buy some LeverEvolution powder.