Seating Below the gas Check ?

[hylander]

First time load for the 308.
Going with 24-25gr. of H4198, no filler.
Lee 312-185 GC
OCL for my rifle with that Boolit comes to 2.640
However to get to that I have to seat with the GC well below the case neck.
Is this a bad thing ? I'm use to loading for the 30-06 and the GC still being in the case neck.
Input ?

[NoAngel]

It can be.

I've shot loads with the bullet's feet dangling in the fire and they never shot well at all. Rethink things I suggest. Maybe a different bullet.

[Prospector Howard]

I personally don't do it. The 160 gr Lee is the heaviest I use for .308. Any heavier and the gas check is seated below the neck into the shoulder. I don't want to have any chance that the gas check comes off before I shoot. This is especially true for people that make gas checks that don't crimp on like Hornadys'. I've seen it said multiple times hear on this forum that it isn't a problem, but I value my face. If you want to shoot a heavier bullet, move back up to 30-06. Now all the members that think I'm paranoid can chime in and say it's OK.

[hylander]

I'm using Gator checks that crimp on tight, if that make a difference.

[dragon813gt]

I do it routinely in 300 Savage. There have been no adverse effects.

[Ben]

This issue has been " hashed and re-hashed " for many years. A bit like the popularity of the M-1 Carbine during the WW-II . 1/2 of the troops loved it, the other 1/2 hated it. Cast bullet shooters seem to display a similar mathematical distribution on the concept of seating a g/c below the end of the case neck.

Personally, I've fired many thousands of cast bullet reloads with the gas check below the neck. I've never had a problem. Never noticed a degrading in the accuracy dept. either.

With that said, I still prefer a bullet style that will allow the g/c to come to rest inside the cartridge case neck during the seating process.

[robg]

i use lee 160 & 180g boolits gas checked in my 308 savage alway try to keep check in case neck .all fed ok and fit mag ok

[tomme boy]

Why did you go for the mould that you are using? What is the bore rider measure on the bullets? How far are they below the neck junction? I do not like to use a mould that the lube grooves are below the junction. That may cause a powder contamination.

I have not had any problems with the gas check below the neck. But, I don't shoot a auto loader either. I would NOT use a aluminum check on a auto loader if they are below the neck. They just do not stay on as well as the copper ones. They may come off just from the feeding of the round. This is how I think and have heard other say the same thing. All of the aluminum checks that are for sale are made out of too thin of material.

[hylander]

Why did you go for the mould that you are using? What is the bore rider measure on the bullets? How far are they below the neck junction? I do not like to use a mould that the lube grooves are below the junction. That may cause a powder contamination.

I have not had any problems with the gas check below the neck. But, I don't shoot a auto loader either. I would NOT use a aluminum check on a auto loader if they are below the neck. They just do not stay on as well as the copper ones. They may come off just from the feeding of the round. This is how I think and have heard other say the same thing. All of the aluminum checks that are for sale are made out of too thin of material.

I choose the this mold because I already have it.
Bore rider is .300
Below neck is just the check groove.
I am using Gator checks, not aluminum.
Seated just at the lands

What about seating into the lands about .020 ? This would get the check into the neck.
But what is everyone thoughts on seating into the lands ?

[selmerfan]

I haven't encountered any problems seating below the neck. I'm "mold-poor" right now and only have two .30 caliber molds - NEI 311299 3-cavity and RD 165 RF 6 cavity. I've used the 311299 in the .30-06, .308, and .30-40 Krag with equal success. However (yeah, there's always a qualifier...) the Krag is the only one which keeps the gas-check in the neck and I NEVER have a flier on groups - the .308 and .30-06 toss one out now and then, and I suspect it is the gas-check boogering things up on the way out, but no way to prove it.

[MarkP]

What about seating into the lands about .020 ? This would get the check into the neck.
But what is everyone thoughts on seating into the lands ?

This can make unloading a live round difficult, and in some instances the bullet can be pulled out of the case. At 0.02" probably not an issue.

[jhalcott]

I tried to "catch" a bullet that had the check below the neck for a couple years. The idea was to SEE if the base was damaged by the blast. I found MOST still had the checks on when dug out of the media. The checks NOT on the bases were discovered IN THE MEDIA! I even shot some into a huge snow drift at 100 yards to see if the checks were coming off in flight with no success. One thing I know is the checks were NEVER left in the gun!

[hylander]

Looks like I will shoot the ones I already loaded below the neck and then load a few up with the nose into the lands about .020

[missionary5155]

Greetings
It is at times like these that the 30-40 Krag with that ample long neck shines out of the darkened recesses of history.
Mike in Peru

[Ben]

tomme boy

All of the aluminum checks that are for sale are made out of too thin of material.

My be ? ?

My aluminum checks I make work just fine. Once on they are no easier or no harder to get off than a copper Hornday check.

The diameter of g/c shanks on molds varies widely from one manufacturer to another , add fluctuation in bullet alloy and you have dimensions all over the place. Then add the mentality that one thickness of aluminum gas check " fits all " and there is no wonder people have had bad experiences with al gas checks.

Ben

[dragon813gt]

None of the checks I make are to thin. But since I make them I can control the thickness. All of the bullets I've recovered still have the checks crimped onto the shank. They don't want to come off just like copper ones. Everyone has different experiences but I haven't had any of the issues that some have experienced w/ aluminium checks.

[Ben]

dragon813gt

Al checks, as you've already found out, are not very forgiving on small g/c shanks.

The combination of too thin of aluminum material and / or too small g/c shank dia. = poor end results.

Ben

[tomme boy]

Ben, I think the 0.014" checks are just a hair too thin. I feel they need to be at least 0.015 or even a little bit bigger. Your right about the shanks being small. Seems like everyone uses the same material in 0.014

[Ben]

tomme boy

" Ben, I think the 0.014" checks are just a hair too thin. I feel they need to be at least 0.015 or even a little bit bigger. "

What happens if the shank is opened in the mold ( like I often do ) ? ?

When considering the use of an aluminum g/c there are two things to consider :

* The diameter of the g/c shank of the bullet
* The thickness of the aluminum

Either or both of the above can be fine tuned to accomplish your goal of a tight fitting aluminum gas check that is both accurate and cannot be easily pulled off the bullet base.

I have success with aluminum g/c's that I make, but I'll also say if a beginning reloader doesn't want to consider the above and take these factors into account, you're probably better off to buy a box of Gators or Hornady G/C's and be done with it.

The crimping feature on these have always worked well on a variety of g/c shank diameters.

Ben

[Prospector Howard]

This is exactly what happens every time this issue has been discussed, "I do it all the time and never had any problems". That's like the guy that says "I drive a hundred miles an hour on the highway all the time and never had a problem". Ben is right in that gas check shanks on molds are different diameter on every mold. I have several molds that I had to ream the shank area a little because the gas checks (Hornady) could come off very easy. I have some that are just right, and some that I have to pound on the checks before running through the sizer. Then using different check material in different thicknesses, annealed or unannealed, and different alloys, just adds more possibilities for gas checks falling off. Yes, more than likely if you use crimp on style copper checks, and the shank is the proper diameter, you probably won't have a check fall off after seating the bullet below the neck. It's just common sense though, to keep the check in the neck area to minimize the possibilities. There is a thread going on right now about a members friend that blew up his .308 rifle shooting 170 grain cast boolits. The speculation is that he had a double charge of 2400 powder but he really didn't know the reason from what I could tell. I asked the question if there might have been a barrel obstruction (like maybe a gas check that came off). The OP hasn't come back on to answer any questions, so who really knows? Anyway, the point is if a check falls off into the powder and you shoot that round, it's quite possible that it turns sideways in the barrel and gets stuck. Then the next round hits that stuck check and you could easily be picking shrapnel out of your face. Yes, I'm a little paranoid; but It's good to be extra careful when you put your face next to a "controlled" explosion.

[tomme boy]

Not everyone makes their own checks. I do not. I buy all of my aluminum and copper checks. The aluminum ones everyone sells are made with the 0.014" flashing. I will not modify a mould to make a check fit, unless, I know that is what I am going to use forever. So far I have not modified any. I also do not have a auto loader to worry about.

I use the aluminum when I am getting low on money and still want to shoot.

[hylander]

I shot the ones I had loaded below the neck.
The 24.0 of H-4198 loads shot about .5" @ 50yds. and about 2" @ 100yds.
The 25.0 H-4198 loads shot 3" at 50yds.
I'm going to try 24grs again with the bullets seated .025 into the lands.

What about 4895 Powder ?

[rsrocket1]

123790
If you look at the boolits from the bottom of the GC up, at 0.300", they are all at the bottom of the first lube groove and the "noses" all start at 0.455" from the bottom. I've measured them with my Lee C309-113, 170 and 200 cast boolits and have verified what the mold picture shows. I seat them all to 0.300" depth which puts the Gas Check right at the bottom of the neck and not hanging down in the shoulder. Here is a picture of the C309-170F as seated in the .308 case. I seated the boolit a little too deep in this case, but you can see where the GC winds up with a 0.300" seated boolit (far right).

123791

As for powder, I like Reloader 7 to drive them at the "higher" speeds (faster than the 10g pistol powder loads). It builds up pressure quickly to expand the case. 26.6g and 33g worked well for me.
@ 50 yards:
123793

[krallstar]

On the same topic. I read here that you can use a lee collet neck die .303 for the 7.62x54r. It neck sizes about half the case. The boolit with gas check normally sits at the bottom of the neck. This would expose the lower boolit. Will this start to melt the lead before it gets into the barrel.

[richhodg66]

I do it routinely in 300 Savage. There have been no adverse effects.

Me too. The short neck being problematic in the .300 Savage is the first thing you always read about the .300 and my experience with it doesn't prove that out.

I think generally, it's a good idea to keep it in the neck if you can, but I have loaded some deeper with good results, sorry I can't hammer down why it works OK sometimes and maybe other times doesn't.

I say, try it and see. You won't create an unsafe condition with an otherwise safe load and the results might pleasantly surprise you.

[fouronesix]

Since I control the cast bullet I use and I control the seating depth and I control the guns I load for and shoot- I choose not to seat the check below the shoulder junction. Pretty simple.

No, the bullet below the junction won't melt.

And, even if the check falls off in the case and the round is fired, it probably won't be a safety issue. But, the check can stick in the barrel. Even then, the following bullet will either push it out or in worst case "iron" over the check and put a little divot in the bore surface. Or, the check can put a hole in a chrony. Or if some bullets lose the check at any time- it probably won't be the most accurate formula.

[Wayne Smith]

To answer your other question loading into the groves isn't a problem unless you can't extract your round without leaving the boolit behind in the barrel. You do want to drop your powder charge a grain or two and chonograph the results as you increase the charge. You can increase pressure this way. If you are only about half way up in your load anyway you are good to go. If you are loading toward the top of the table back off a little.

[dtknowles]

To answer your other question loading into the groves isn't a problem unless you can't extract your round without leaving the boolit behind in the barrel. You do want to drop your powder charge a grain or two and chonograph the results as you increase the charge. You can increase pressure this way. If you are only about half way up in your load anyway you are good to go. If you are loading toward the top of the table back off a little.

It is just one data point and I don't have pressure data but I was testing loads with the XCB bullet in my 30BR using BLC2. To keep the check in the neck meant that the bullet needed to be very hard jammed into the throat. The rounds that were hard jammed into the throat shot 100 fps faster than the ones that just barely touched the lands. The ammo with the shorter COAL were more accurate even though the check was well below the neck.

Tim

[newton]

I too wondered about this with a 30-30 load I was working up. At the end of the day logical sense has to be used. Is there enough room for the check to fall off? With my loads, they were slightly compressed, so there was no room for them to drop off. But, maybe there is if the powder is well below the base of the bullet.

Ok, so if that's the case, then why are they falling off? Just because? If so, then why wouldn't they just fall off if in the neck? I guess that would be because the neck holds it. Ok, I can buy that.

So, what happens if it falls off inside the case? This is where I am really curious what could happen. Personally I think we are not thinking about the pressures involved here. The only way I cannot see a gas check that has fallen off(for whatever reason) not coming out of the case and barrel, would be if the check had worked its way down into the powder quite a bit.

But, the long and the short. I am very curious as to think of how a gas check that has fallen off, but yet has been pushed out of the case into the barrel, would not also be pushed on out the gun. We are not talking about water pressure here.

I am half way tempted to do a test. I think I will in fact. I just do not believe a gas check that came completely off a boolit will just be turned sideways insided of a barrel. I would not say its impossible, but its close to it.

[fouronesix]

I am half way tempted to do a test. I think I will in fact. I just do not believe a gas check that came completely off a boolit will just be turned sideways insided of a barrel. I would not say its impossible, but its close to it.

Proving an impossibility is in fact impossible.

Suggestion- approach the test with the hypothesis that it is possible. It only takes one "success" of leaving a check in a bore to prove that.

Aside from being impossible and futile anyway- the number of variables and number of tests will be astronomical if trying to prove it can't happen.
:popcorn:

[Chuck Walla]

Since I control the cast bullet I use and I control the seating depth and I control the guns I load for and shoot- I choose not to seat the check below the shoulder junction. Pretty simple.

No, the bullet below the junction won't melt.

And, even if the check falls off in the case and the round is fired, it probably won't be a safety issue. But, the check can stick in the barrel. Even then, the following bullet will either push it out or in worst case "iron" over the check and put a little divot in the bore surface. Or, the check can put a hole in a chrony. Or if some bullets lose the check at any time- it probably won't be the most accurate formula.

Is this some kind of joke? It is pretty amazing that someone would say that shooting another bullet with an obstruction in the bore (any obstruction) probably wouldn't be a safety issue and that in the worst case "iron" over the check that could be stuck in the bore. What's even more amazing is that this site should have enough experienced shooters to jump all over such a statement in two days on here. What the heck people?

[dtknowles]

It was your turn to speak up. This has been hashed out here too many times, it gets tiresome and I wasn't in the mood to argue. Yes, shooting a firearm with any sort of bore obstruction is asking for a KABOOM.

Tim

[hylander]

Thanks for all the input.
My checks are on tight and there is no chance of them coming off, so that issue is not an issue.
Going to try to load the bullets in the neck. That will put the nose several thousandths into the lands.
So I should back off the load a bit ?
Loading 24gr. of 4198 under a Lee 185

[fouronesix]

Is this some kind of joke? It is pretty amazing that someone would say that shooting another bullet with an obstruction in the bore (any obstruction) probably wouldn't be a safety issue and that in the worst case "iron" over the check that could be stuck in the bore. What's even more amazing is that this site should have enough experienced shooters to jump all over such a statement in two days on here. What the heck people?

What the heck people? I said "gas check", I did not say "any obstruction". One of the subjects in this thread or thread drift was about the potential for gas checks to be left in the bore and/or the results of same.

Do some research and hopefully understand the principles…. beyond parroting statements backed by folksy anecdotes which seem to be the norm here.

The mass and size of a gas check compared to that of a bullet is extremely small so the normal thing that happens when a gas check (or any similar small, low mass object) is left in a bore is it gets pushed out by the following bullet. Or on rare occasions that object could get ironed into the bore wall by following bullet(s). The bore obstruction phenomenon has been tested, reported on and the ballistics explained by Hatcher and many others.

As the ratio of size/mass between the bore obstruction and the bullet increases, the chance for "bigger and bigger" things to happen increases. Moving beyond a small, low mass gas check, as the size and mass of the obstruction increases, at least a bulge is likely at the location of the obstruction. Moving beyond that as the obstruction increases in size and mass the results change to a barrel burst at the location of the obstruction. But a bore obstruction is NOT a guarantee of a chamber burst or failure of the action. Usually a bore obstruction needs to be fairly close to the chamber and be fairly substantial and the charge/load large enough in order to cause a burst at the chamber or an action failure.

BTW, I'm still waiting for the test results on whether or not a gas check can in fact be left in a bore after firing.

:popcorn:

[hylander]

Went to the range this morning.
Seated into the lands .020
This still leaves the check at the base of the neck exposed, but not the Boolit.
This is the result of 4 shots at 50 yds.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b193/hylander7/Bows/Goodies/e16ec4ec-b76a-4a47-8bfc-9e10b173280c_zpsdd4da595.jpg