Sizing off center?

[Clinton]

I've began to notice my Lyman 4500 is sizing bullets off center. I thought maybe this was from the bullet being out of round but it does it on the same side of the sizing die everytime. I then thought maybe it was because I was pulling the handle to one side while using my right hand so I repositioned and purposely put pressure on the handle from the other direction and it still did the same thing. I've noticed all of the hardware on the sizer is a bit loose. Should I snug it all up?
123465

These are two different bullets both showing the same effect on one side of the bullet.

[country gent]

Try rotating the nose punch and or the sizing die a quarter turn in the mount and see if it changes. If sizing die dosnt change center and nose puch does then nose punch is not concentric, if rotating the sizing die changes the die isnt cocerntric or seated true. If they dont change then the machines alighnment is off in te bored holes or ram.

[Clinton]

If it's the press and not the top punch or sizing die I suppose there is no way to fix it?

[dtknowles]

If it's the press and not the top punch or sizing die I suppose there is no way to fix it?

If this is the case you have a couple options. You can make a eccentric top punch or you can open up the top punch hole, press in plug and drill a new hole.

I made a eccentric top punch. I used lead and left the part that sticks out of the ram oversize, ran it down on the size die with jacketed bullet in the die. Used the mark as the center of the top punch and finished the top punch. I don't know so much about 4500's as mine is a 450 but some people say that it is the set screw for the top punch that makes them off center so with my other die sets I just use bullet lube to hold the top punch in the hole and that is not too bad.

Tim

[country gent]

If bullets are hard or dont require alot of force try a flat nose punch But nake sure it dosnt distort the bullet. There are ways to fix out of alighnment but it get involved and is tricky at times. The ram can be drilled oversized hole a slug pressed or threaded in and faced flat then with a bushing guiding the drill and center drill the new hole made. To match. A set of bushing would need to be made 1 for center drill and 1 for drill. Sizer needs to be disassembled and then drilled for new top punch hole. I would drill out the ram for 3/8 24 3/8-1/2" deeper than exisiting and run a bolt in tight with lock tite. Face or dress this flat to ram and your ready to drill the new mount hole. After the punch hole you need to finish the set screw hole thru it and deburr everything.

[winelover]

Nature of the beast. In and out sizers, that is. Want concentric, pick up Star.

Winelover

[Reg]

For the reason you speak of, this is exactly why I sold my old Lyman 45 and went to the push through system. My accuracy went up as well.

[Clinton]

It's not the top punch or the sizing dies. It appears the top punch hole in the ram is not correctly aligned with the sizing die hole. I think correcting this would be out of my skill range. I'll either live with it or investigate another sizing method.

[NoAngel]

That's why I use a flat top punch for everything. On bullets that require a good bit of sizing, like when I size .458's back to .452's, I use a Lee .454 as an intermediary.

[Uncle Grinch]

Sometimes it's a matter of centering the ram in the press. A set screw can be fitted to force the ram in the proper direction. I believe this has been discussed before and maybe it was Buckshot who posted his example.

[Clinton]

That's why I use a flat top punch for everything. On bullets that require a good bit of sizing, like when I size .458's back to .452's, I use a Lee .454 as an intermediary.

Is this a home made top punch or does Lyman actually sell one of these? I assume you only use them on flat nose bullets?

[oldfart1956]

Clinton one of the things I've noticed about the Lyman sizer is, as noted, tightening up the set screw on the ram forces the top punch toward the body of the sizer. Now it sets off-center in the die body. I make my own flat top punches out of clevis pins. (see the .92 cent solution post in Reloading) Using the pin full length (2 inches...and yes they will work) you really notice the offset when tightening the set screw! I found a workaround that is a bit more labor intensive but it works. Remove the pin that raises the center part up in the die...(the black pin that the handle moves up) and remove the pin from the die. The pin that resides inside the die proper. Now install a flat top punch and run all the boolits thru the die nose first and out the bottom. You're only sizing now..not lubing. You can seat gas checks at this time as well. Once they're all sized re-install all the bits and go base first and lube as normal. I'm currently working on a new clevis pin flat top punch and I'm stealing an idea from The Perfessor. I'm cutting a groove on the shank of the clevis pin and installing a # 60 O-ring in the groove. No more using the set screw on the ram, just slide the punch up in the ram and it self centers just like his nut tool does. Audie...the Oldfart..

[tazman]

For the reason you speak of, this is exactly why I sold my old Lyman 45 and went to the push through system. My accuracy went up as well.

I second that. My results exactly.

[NoAngel]

Yeah, you can buy a flat top punch.
Ive used them on pointy bullets, leaves a little meplat depending on the resistance. I use a flat punch on my Lyman 358430 which is a 200g round nose. I'm not really sizing them down, the die just barely kisses the edges. It leaves a flat spot about .060 in diameter. Whoopedy do. Doesn't affect squat.

[theperfessor]

A flat face punch works well on most flat nose bullets, and lets the bullet self center. I make caliber-specific cup nosed punches that let you fill the cavity with JB Weld and mold it to the nose of your bullet. (http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=116445) If you put a punch mark or file mark on the punch and always face it the same way in the ram it will help correct an off center ram. I also use O-rings on the stem to eliminate the setscrew problem and further aid self alignment.

There is a sticky somewhere here about my rebuild (including line boring the ram and sleeving it) of a Lyman 450. The will wear and go off center after sizing umpty ump bullets.

[Ben]

One option that I don't think has been mentioned.

___________________________


Size with a Lee Push Thru Die ( that is about the
most concentric sizing you'll do to a cast bullet.)

Then take a die that is .003 larger in dia. than the bullet you've just sized and lube that bullet with the larger die. Should be no chance for mis-alignment now.

Example, you've sized a .357 bullet, use a .360 die to LUBE ONLY.

If you've got mis-alignment with this system, you really do have problems.

Ben

[MT Chambers]

I have Lyman sizers, RCBS sizers, but the most concentric of all is the Star sizer, which lubes at the same time.

[Clinton]

I think the easiest cure for me is to get a plain flat punch for 30 cal bullets. Really all I want to cast is flat nose bullets anyway. Can anyone give me a part number for a Lyman top punch that's completely flat?

[theperfessor]

I can put one in your hands for $8, postage included. PM me if you're interested.

[Ben]

Keith ( above ) is clearly your best bet !

[Buck Neck It]

Saeco seems hard to beat for concentricity. This is what I have seen so far.

[GabbyM]

I bent my Lyman 4500 linkage not long after I purchased it a few years back. Can't recall just how I did it. Something like linkage binding on a tool that wasn't suppose to be there. Was my fault anyway and not from force used to size a bullet. Wasn't to hard to see as the top punch did not come down centered in the size die. Getting it back straight proved to be a puzzle to me so I sent it in to Lyman and they sent it back perfect. Small amount of money for good service saved me a big headache. Since then I've sized literally over a hundred thousand bullets with it. Mostly gas check rifle bullets that are long and cumbersome in a push through sizer. Also my tiny 22 and 6mm boolits.

So that said. First I'd run the ram down with die and punch installed and look to see how well it's aligned. If it's off center you simply have to get it tweaked back straight. I'd like to know myself just how to go about that.

[theperfessor]

GabbyM - I used a milling machine and line bored my 450 and sleeved the holes with some glued in bronze bushings. Also turned down ram to fit bushings. If it wears out again I will heat it up a little to soften epoxy, press out old bushings and rebush the holes.

The wear is just the nature of the way ram type sizers operate. This includes the Lyman 450 and 4500 and the LAM series. If the OEM would put in replaceable bushings that would help the longevity, but most lubers will probably never see enough use to have wear problems.

Guide rod type sizers seem to fare somewhat better in the wear department. This includes the Lyman 45 and the Saeco.

Of course a lot depends on how accurately they are machined in the first place!

[Dale53]

Here is what my "no cost" solution to this problem. Find some stiff grease, loosen the set screw completely and put grease on the part of the nose punch that goes in the head of the sizer and also to the rim of the nose punch. The grease will allow the punch to self center and will hold the punch in the head. It solved all of my problems with "off center".

It costs nearly NOTHING to try it.

FWIW
Dale53

[geargnasher]

If The Perfesser is back in business making the push-through conversion kits again that utilize Lyman H-dies and a reloading press, buy one of those and push-through size to your final diameter after checking and base-first lubing in the 450 with a die large enough to not size the bullet any. It's a system I use and works great!

Gear

[oldfart1956]

I can put one in your hands for $8, postage included. PM me if you're interested. GAAHHH! For $8 I wouldn't have wasted time driving to the hardware store and fiddlin' around with my clevis pin. I farted around 1/2 hour sizing it down and completely wasted another hour cutting a groove for an O-ring. Which isn't working as well as I'd hoped. Go with The Perfessors offer. Audie...the Oldfart. P.S. If you have a 450/4500 get one of his nut tools!!! Invaluable!

[Clinton]

I don't believe the set screw is what's throwing it off because it's sizing heavy on the right side of the sizer when looking at it instead of the front or rear. I can actually make it size correctly by placing pressure on the left side of the handle. If I place pressure on the right side of the handle the top punch almost scrapes the inside of the sizing die. I don't really care to convert it because that makes sizing a two-step process. Honestly I think I would have been better off just buying the cheap Lee push through sizers and tumble lubing.

I may contact Lyman though and see what their response is.

[theperfessor]

Clinton - Mailed your stuff this afternoon.

[Clinton]

Clinton - Mailed your stuff this afternoon. Thanks. With that punch I shouldn't have a problem sizing anything that doesn't have to be squeezed too small.

[Stonecrusher]

On my 450 I noticed that it started sizing crooked just like your picture. This was just before the bolts that hold the linkage to the handle snapped. There was a noticeable increase in the force needed to size that occurred at the same time.

I replaced the bolts with some good new ones and it went back to working just fine. Just something you can check.

[Ben]

Honestly I think I would have been better off just buying the cheap Lee push through sizers and tumble lubing.

Can't beat the " Push Thru " sizers for doing it right.

Ben

[Geezer in NH]

Do not use the screw to hold the top punch, leave it loose in the hole use some bullet lube to stick it in place. That usually solves the problem and it is an old trick

[Clinton]

I bought a Lee .311 push through sizing die and used the LLA that came with it. It easily took 2" off the groups I've been shooting and was so easy and fast to use I cannot honestly see myself using a lubesizer again.

[milrifle]

When I bought my Lyman 4500, it sized off center. Always the same side, no matter which way you turned the top punch or die. The top ram is loose in the sizer and wobbles in the bore noticeably. I guess the way I pull the handle always forces it the same direction? I tried leaving the set screw out and holding the top punch in with some soft bullet lube. It still did it. It was brand new, so I sent it back to Lyman. I got it back with a letter stating they had found the problem. It seems the idiot operating the thing had left out the set screw that holds the top punch in. They graciously installed a new set screw at no cost and sent it back to me. Problem solved.......Well, at least their problem was solved. It was no longer in their shop with a work order so it was no longer a problem for them. It still sized off center. I ended up turning the shank of the top punch down a little in my lathe to allow it to set even further off center and held it in with bullet lube, while allowing it to 'float'. That helped a lot.

Of late, I have been only been lubing or sizing only a small amount, and it has not been a problem. If it shows up again, I'll use it to lube only then run through a push through sizer.

[GabbyM]

Yes milrifle my Lyman 4500 has always wobbled too. Measured it and there is actually only a few thousandths clearance between ram and bore. All it takes I guess. What I do is consciously center up the lever at top stroke then carefully pull it straight down. Even then the press still has to be lined up very well or it just won't pull through straight. I also keep the ram of my sizers and reloading presses greased with EP grease. Not oil.