45-70 pistol powder load hammers like a MULE!

[karlrudin]

I started off loading my new H & R 45-70 by breaking down two boxes of factory 405 grain Corelok ammo, replacing their powder with my HS-6 and their J bullets. The load came from http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm. 12 grains of HS-6 was their minimum load so I loaded them up and I was fine with the recoil. Then I cast up some Lee 405 grain bullets. WW alloy and water dropped. No sizing as they dropped out of the mold at .459, 413 grains and tumble lubed them. Loaded up a box with HS-6 at 12, 12.5, 13, 13.5. Then crimped the bullet. The first 5 rounds worked fine but were noticeably heavier on the recoil. By the time I got to the 13.5 grain set, these rounds had me wincing. My next box of bullets was from the same cast bullets but used IMR 4198. This load data came from http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm. Their data started at 21.5 grains. Once again I started at 21.5, 22, 22.5, 23. These loads seemed to pick up where the HS-6 left off in recoil. It was painful to finish the last 5. I have added weight to my H & R by filling the stock with bb's and adding a Caldwell bi-pod. I'm guestimating the weight is up to 8 lbs. According to the recoil calculator, the HS-6 should hit about 10 lbs and the IMR 4198 right at 9 lbs. I have shot full military German 8mm in a 9 lb weapon and a 30-06 Springfield weighing the same with armor piercing ammo. And I'm here to tell you these 45-70's were right there with them. No way they should be hitting that hard according to the math. I managed to retrieve 4 from the 2 boxes I shot. The lands on the bullet between the grease grooves seemed to appear smeared towards the rear of the bullet on all of them. Noticeable rifling marks but not down to the bottom of the grease grooves. Can I think that these bullets are so over bore that they are causing such resistance to cause this type of recoil!!! Fired cases came out of the bore with my fingers, no resistance. No flat primers, no swells, cracks or breech face marks on the base of the case. No signs of overpressure. HELP!!!

[Pb2au]

There are some powders that simply generate a sharper recoil pulse than others, and I think you hit the jackpot.
if you have them available, consider the use of 3031, 4064, or Varget. They are all a bit slower powders and in my experience, are quite manageable in the recoil department.
if plinking, scoop up some Trail boss. It is very easy on the recoil.

[Pb2au]

Or switch to the Holy Black......
My rolling block shoots well with smokeless powder. It shoots extremely well with black powder and a nice soft lead 405 grain slug.

[texassako]

You might want to go straight to the source for your load data. Hodgdon lists Trapdoor pressure IMR-4198 loads with a 405 gr cast bullet starting at 30 gr and max is 32 gr at 19k psi. You ought to feel a Ruger only load in .45-70 if you think those loads hurt. I think your IMR-4198 load data originally came from Lyman 49th for TC contender and encore handguns.

[karlrudin]

Update on the situation with the heavy recoil. I decided today to go back and dissect the problem starting with the basic. I took 4 new cases, full length sized them, trim to length, seated the primer and decided to do 1 round of Trailboss, HS-6, IMR 4198 and IMR 3031 per recomended. With the first 3 powders I took the data from the books. 3031 was a bit high for me so I took the maximum load for Trapdoor and reduced it to 70% of full charge. So instead of 38.5 grains it ended up at 27 grains. Then I put one of my cast bullets in the chamber to see where overall length should be. My cartridges max length ended up at 2.464". So I loaded them up to a OAL of 2.455". Took them out back and fired all 4. Tada!!! I found the problem. 3 out of the 4 were soft recoil and only IMR 4198 gave a sharper recoil but tolerable. It was the load data telling me to load them at 2.550. I knew from the last time that the bullet was in the lands but didnt think it would cause a problem. Turns out it did! I always check for OAL with J bullets but didnt this time with cast and took it from the book. Thanks yall for your input. Especially convincing me to try IMR 3031, since I have quantity of it. Anyone have any ideas about using BL-C2. Got plenty of this also. Once again thanks

[karlrudin]

There are some powders that simply generate a sharper recoil pulse than others, and I think you hit the jackpot.
if you have them available, consider the use of 3031, 4064, or Varget. They are all a bit slower powders and in my experience, are quite manageable in the recoil department.
if plinking, scoop up some Trail boss. It is very easy on the recoil.

Thanks for the advice on IMR 3031. Made a big difference. It was a pleasant surprise, not a wince. Any thoughts on BL-C2 since it falls between 3031 and varget. splitting the difference might be a place to start?

[MT Chambers]

My 555 grain cast loads kick like a mule but it doesn't deter me and at 1600+ fps. bears won't argue, these are not fun loads but for serious work, 12 grains of Trail Boss is a nice soft shooting load for plinking with lighter cast bullets. If loads slightly above factory loads are still bothersome, get a .44 Mag. or .38/55.

[44man]

I found the same working loads for a friend and an original trap door. 4198 beat me but 3031 was nice even with more boolit weight. Very accurate to point of aim too.
The 500 gr boolit recoiled a whole lot less then the 405 gr with 4198.

[oldfart1956]

Karlrudin that left me laughing....thank you. I've been thru the trials with the 45/70 as well (trapdoor) and been there..done that. Nowadays the recoil produced by a firearm is one of the first criteria in any of my loads. If it makes me grit my tooth and squint every time I rip the trigger...I ain't using it. I don't care how accurate it is. If you haven't already go to the Single Shot Forum here and read Larry Gibsons "Loads and Techniques" post. Next..try lighter boolits. My shooting is limited to about 100 yds. (eyes suck) but within that range I haven't found a load using the 405gr. boolit that was more accurate than a lighter 300/325gr. boolit. This is with open sights, no doubt a scope would change that....as would youthful peepers. That Lee 90373 mold works for me. Flat base, no gas check and flat nose. Easy to modify (lap) if needed and about $20. I don't size cases any more than needed and keep the length just off the rifling. For long range shooting...yeah probably gonna have to man up and take a whoopin'. Stuffed a coupl'a 500gr. boolits in a few cases once. That will not happen again. Pachmeyer sells a dandy leather&velcro slip on recoil pad that works wonders! :) Audie...the Oldfart..

[karlrudin]

Well I'm glad I was able to give you a laugh :smile:. I've got the same result from other younger and less experienced loaders. As for the recoil, I built a rifle in 7-08 in which I shoot J bullets, but more cast. It weighs 13.5 lbs. NO RECOIL lol. I'm to old and medical reasons to have recoil. But shooting is my 1st activity next to reloading. So I might as well enjoy it. Most of my shooting with cast so far is mostly at 50 yards but occasionally at 100 yards when I get tired of small groups(1.5" with my 7-08 with cast). I only picked the 405 gr bullet because it was designed for the cartridge, lack of info. I'm thinking about lowering the weigh if I cant get some decent groups with 405. But since I'm on very limited budget, it will have to wait. I read the article like you suggested. All I have to say is AWESOME. I love getting advice/experience from people. I've been called a sponge because of it. If I didn't mention, my ONLY reason for casting, loading and shooting is to kill paper. As I read the article, I seen several things WRONG I've been doing, to hard of bullets, wrong diameter, etc. Thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction. But like you said for long range and man up and take a whoopin, NAH. That's why I built my 7-08. I got this 45-70 for short fun shooting, which will come when I start using BP/equivalent and for nostalgia. My dad and I loved shooting his TD with BP when I was a child. Knocks the dust off old memories, especially since I recently lost him. He loved casting and loading accuracy loads for his 30-06 Springfield, but enjoyed shooting the TD with me. Good times. Thanks again:smile:

[Wayne Smith]

Save your pennies (literally, on a limited budget) and eventually invest in a Lyman 457122 (Gould HP) mold. It too was specifically designed for the 45-70 and Eastern Whitetail shooting. I would (do) have no problem carrying it in an Encore (single shot) for Black Bear. This one goes back to the BP days, too. Shooting this boolit with 3031 or BP is not huge recoil in my rifle. I do have the recoil reducing stock, though.

[44man]

I have the perfect boolt for that gun. Rapine 500 gr Gov't, casts at .460". 20 to 1 alloy.
I loaded a bunch with 3031, forget the amount though, friend moved away with the info.
I was shooting with the 4198 loads our gunsmith loaded for him and it was beating my cheek black and blue. 405 gr. They hit very high at 50 yards. No groups. I looked sideways at my 500 gr loads with fear. But after one shot, no pain at all, just a push. Found groups were great and centered on the bull.
Then I tried my revolver loads with my 317 gr boolit and 4759. Had a one hole group but too low to hunt with.
He killed a bunch of deer with the Rapine boolit.

[44man]

Many Lyman molds marked .457 cast too small, The Rapine was offered in different sizes, too bad Ray retired long ago.

[John Allen]

You might want to go straight to the source for your load data. Hodgdon lists Trapdoor pressure IMR-4198 loads with a 405 gr cast bullet starting at 30 gr and max is 32 gr at 19k psi. You ought to feel a Ruger only load in .45-70 if you think those loads hurt. I think your IMR-4198 load data originally came from Lyman 49th for TC contender and encore handguns.

In My younger days I used to run a 45/70 with 500 grain bullets at high velocity in a Ruger #3 it will bring tears to your eyes. Now adays it is 5744 powder for the new stuff and holy black for all my other guns.

[44man]

Do not need velocity to hunt, just the right boolit and alloy. Both can be had without getting the snot kicked out of you.

[wquiles]

Thanks to this thread I just bought some IMR 3031 today for my own 45-70 loads (H&R Handi rifle). Based on what I can see on QuickLOAD the pressure curve is lower and more "spread" with IMR 3031 out than the H4198 and Lil'Gun that I was trying earlier. Looks like IMR 3031 is definitely a great powder for the mighty 45-70. Definitely looking forward to trying it very soon :bigsmyl2:

[MtGun44]

Try W748. I use 57.1 gr under a 405 gr boolit and it makes a nice 1750 fps, moderate to heavy recoil
but pretty acceptable for what it is. Very accurate, too. This is a published load that develops trapdoor
pressures.

Bill

[karlrudin]

Try W748. I use 57.1 gr under a 405 gr boolit and it makes a nice 1750 fps, moderate to heavy recoil
but pretty acceptable for what it is. Very accurate, too. This is a published load that develops trapdoor
pressures.

Bill

Thanks for another input on powder. I have never tried any Winchester powders before, nor have I seen any recently. :cry: But if they do as well as BL-C2 which is the only ball power I've used, I think I would like it. The recoil with the BL-C2 yesterday was really more of a push. Ps, got a friend of mine that lives in Wichita and is just as helpful. Thanks

[NavyVet1959]

Just remember the basic physics principle -- momentum is conserved.

The momentum of the bullet (plus powder ejected) equals the momentum of the firearm after you shoot it.

So, you can reduce the velocity of the bullet or the weight of the bullet.
You can also increase the weight of the rifle.

Now, *felt recoil* is "basically" momentum, but not quite. It is subjective in that it is spread over time and one powder might produce a "kick" and another more of a "shove".

If you want to reduce the recoil of that H&R, switch to a lighter bullet (and maybe hollowpoint it to further reduce weight) and reduce the powder. Adding weight to the rifle will also help. A good recoil pad can change the characteristics of the recoil a bit also. A wide shoulder recoil pad could also be designed to spread the recoil over a larger area of your shoulder and thus reduce the pressure per sq-in.

If all else fails, send the firearm back to the factory and let them fit a .357 barrel on it and get it converted to .357 max.

[karlrudin]

Well I loaded up those 405's with some BL-C2 as 27, 28, 29 and 30 grains in groups of 5 rounds. All went well with the ammo and the recoil. The 29 grain load worked best for my Handi Rifle. Grouped about 1.5 " at 50 yards. Not bad without tweeking so far. Things to note though. I was shooting in 35' weather with a heavy coat on. Still not a kicker, but a pusher. LOVE IT. Also noted on the rounds I seated the primer with a bit more depth than I should have, the load fizzled as if I crushed the primer and didn't get full ignition. I will definitely watch out for this next time. Never really noticed it on my 7-08. Overall cartridge length was 2.455 with this bullet NOT the max noted in the manual. I ended up .010" off the lands. Thanks for the input yall. This cartridge and I are starting to shape up :smile:

[karlrudin]

Thanks to this thread I just bought some IMR 3031 today for my own 45-70 loads (H&R Handi rifle). Based on what I can see on QuickLOAD the pressure curve is lower and more "spread" with IMR 3031 out than the H4198 and Lil'Gun that I was trying earlier. Looks like IMR 3031 is definitely a great powder for the mighty 45-70. Definitely looking forward to trying it very soon :bigsmyl2:

The 3031 really was an easy push in my test along with BL-C2, H4227. I found an easy way to tame the recoil by filling the butt stock with lead shot from 20 12 gauge shells also. Let alone putting a scope on it and a bi-pod. Just food for thought.

[wquiles]

The 3031 really was an easy push in my test along with BL-C2, H4227. I found an easy way to tame the recoil by filling the butt stock with lead shot from 20 12 gauge shells also. Let alone putting a scope on it and a bi-pod. Just food for thought.

I tried a load with 3031 yesterday (Sun) at the range, and although the recoil was strong, it really pushed me back hard - rather than the sharper hit from the other powders. Definitely prefer 3031 for a "hunting" load.

My handy has a mercury recoil reducer in the stock which does help a little as well :)

[karlrudin]

I tried a load with 3031 yesterday (Sun) at the range, and although the recoil was strong, it really pushed me back hard - rather than the sharper hit from the other powders. Definitely prefer 3031 for a "hunting" load.

My handy has a mercury recoil reducer in the stock which does help a little as well :)

Yeah, I agree with the loads out of the book or from the Hogdon website. Except mine were loaded with only 30 grains of either powder :p

[claude]

Anyone have any ideas about using BL-C2. Got plenty of this also.

Yes I do, I am shooting 46 grs. of BL-C2 under a 460gr WFN cast, my chrony tells me it is running between 1400 and 1425 in a five shot string. My rifle (1895 classic) weighs 7.5 lbs plus another half pound of ammo and the recoil is pushy, not snappy. I found that the starter loads I was using of 42 grs. was a little dirty, leaving unburned powder. As I stepped up the charge and pressure the burn became much cleaner.

I may attempt to go for the 1500fps mark, but recoil will determine that. At 1400fps, the 460 gr boolit will stop any animal I will encounter in my neck of the woods, no grizz here, but I wouldn't fear to use them against him in an emergency.

[foxtrapper]

Benchmark is my go to for the 45/70 and 50 ak.

[CPL Lou]

I've discovered that using a magnum rifle primer when loading IMR 3031 results in less velocity spreads, smaller groups and less fouling in the barrel.

CPL Lou

[quack1]

Adding weight and slower powders can help some, but felt recoil can be increased or decreased by stock design. The wrong stock dimensions can easily increase felt recoil by 1/2. A nice straight stock preferably with cheek piece and with a wide buttplate or pad helps decrease felt recoil. You didn't say if you are shooting off a bench, but leaning into the gun can also increase felt recoil. If you're using a bench, get the gun up higher so you can sit more vertical.
I'm pretty recoil-proof, but the worst kicking gun I ever shot was a 12 ga 3" magnum H&R single shot, while patterning it off a bench. One time was enough for me.

[Toymaker]

70 grains Goex FFg compressed 0.28 inch, cardboard wad, newspaper disk and shoot. Easy/Peezie. Or, you can use something in the neighborhood of 23 to 24.5 grains of 4759 or 5744 under that 405 grain bullet. Play with using large pistol primers versus large rifle.

[karlrudin]

Yes I do, I am shooting 46 grs. of BL-C2 under a 460gr WFN cast, my chrony tells me it is running between 1400 and 1425 in a five shot string. My rifle (1895 classic) weighs 7.5 lbs plus another half pound of ammo and the recoil is pushy, not snappy. I found that the starter loads I was using of 42 grs. was a little dirty, leaving unburned powder. As I stepped up the charge and pressure the burn became much cleaner.

I may attempt to go for the 1500fps mark, but recoil will determine that. At 1400fps, the 460 gr boolit will stop any animal I will encounter in my neck of the woods, no grizz here, but I wouldn't fear to use them against him in an emergency.

I did end up trying BL-C2 also but nowhere near your range. I'm using a Lee 405(weighs out at 416) and 29 grains of BL-C2. Grouped at 1" at 50 yards and can shoot them all day. I to had the problem of unburt powder, but not enough to worry about. I will try Magnum primers and adjust the load. Might try some filler, but haven't tried that trick yet.

[karlrudin]

Adding weight and slower powders can help some, but felt recoil can be increased or decreased by stock design. The wrong stock dimensions can easily increase felt recoil by 1/2. A nice straight stock preferably with cheek piece and with a wide buttplate or pad helps decrease felt recoil. You didn't say if you are shooting off a bench, but leaning into the gun can also increase felt recoil. If you're using a bench, get the gun up higher so you can sit more vertical.
I'm pretty recoil-proof, but the worst kicking gun I ever shot was a 12 ga 3" magnum H&R single shot, while patterning it off a bench. One time was enough for me.


I did add some lead shot in the butt stock to add some weight to a 7 lb gun, which is a ridiculous weight to me. Added a Caldwell bi-pod, left the recoil pad on that came with it and then added a slip on pad also. Rifle should be weighing in about 9.5-10 lbs now. Also I only shoot off the bench cause I'm only shooting at paper. I had forgotten about what you said about leaning into a rifle and I will elevate the bi-pod some more to get into a more vertical position. And yes mine is a Handi-Rifle and my first shootings of it were brutal. On par with a light weight 300 Winmag. I'm just so used to leaning into my other rifle(7-08 with cast bullets and it weighs 13.5 lbs) that I had forgotten how much a rifle can hurt when sitting wrong. :(

[karlrudin]

70 grains Goex FFg compressed 0.28 inch, cardboard wad, newspaper disk and shoot. Easy/Peezie. Or, you can use something in the neighborhood of 23 to 24.5 grains of 4759 or 5744 under that 405 grain bullet. Play with using large pistol primers versus large rifle.


I have NO experience of working with almighty black or its alternatives. Love to watch them fire and love the smell. I might get to that sooner or later. Maybe when I get done with a can of nitro. I did end up trying H4227 because I had it on hand and it worked out well along with 3031.