New to bullet casting BUT...getting frustrated

[DickelDawg]

Not a patient person by nature. BUT...have been casting for about 2 weeks. 1st sessions weren't too bad. Things have gone downhill from there. Have varied temp from about 600*F to almost 800*F and bullets continue to have wrinkles and voids. Using Lee aluminum molds, cleaned & lubed (sparingly). Started out with WW alloy then added some plumber's lead. Have fluxed a couple of times with sawdust. Any suggestions about where to go from here would be appreciated.

[RickinTN]

Smoke the cavities of the mold with a butane lighter or a candle and most likely the wrinkles will go away. The wrinkles are a sign that your mold is not hot enough...not the mix, the mold. The smoking makes the mold more forgiving on temperature.
Rick

[Jailer]

Before you go smoking that mold try pre heating your mold on a hot plate with a "cover" of some type to get it up to temp. I use an old coffee can for my cover. This pre heats the entire mold and sprue plate and makes it a lot easier to find your cadence with a mold that's near casting temp to start with.

[bedbugbilly]

Hotter mold . . . and don't get frustrated! :-) If you've only had a few "molding sessions" . . you'll learn more each time. Part of it is getting your rhythm down . . . once you get that, you mold will/should stay hot enough to do way with the wrinkles.

I use a LP gas single burner hot plate to melt with - pretty low tech. I always preheat the mole (Lee aluminum, NOE aluminum, Lyman/Ideal steel) as I'm melting the lead. With the mold heated up, I maybe have a couple of bad pours which go back in to the pot and then once I get going, the mold stays plenty hot. With the Lee molds, I have more problems keeping it cool enough so my sprues harden and I can keep going and not have to wait and waste time between pours.

It's like anything else . . there is a learning curve. I've been doing it for 50 + years and I still learn new things all the time. Once it comes all together for you . . you'll go "Oh . . yea!" Just give it time and you'll get it . . . and I'm betting that once you do, you'll find the whole process as enjoyable as reloading or shooting. Best of luck!

[Bill in Ky]

Ditto the hotter mold.. I dip the corner of my Lee mold down in the lead to heat it up. Even then it sometimes takes 4 or 5 cast's to get it hot enough..
Good luck..

[TXGunNut]

Try scrubbing those moulds again, sometimes the oil is stubborn. When you re-lube just touch the pins and sprue plate, keep it out of the cavities. Which Lee moulds do you have? I finally found a hot plate to heat-cycle and pre-heat moulds, best piece of casting equipment I've bought recently.
Hang in there, sometimes it takes awhile to get things down.

[CPL Lou]

Try re cleaning the molds with Dawn dishwashing liquid.
Sounds like some oil sneaked in somehow.
3X on preheating the molds !
Also, try speeding up your casting rhythm a bit, not letting the mold cool until you get really frosty boolits.

CPL Lou

[strobro32]

I've been casting for 11 days now with 4 new aluminum Lee molds. I've been very successful. Here's my 12 step program.

1. Remove protective paper label from Lee mold.
2. Spray with non-chlorinated brake cleaner.
3. Blast with air hose to remove brake cleaner
4. Smoke mold halves with Bic lighter
5. Apply 1 drop of Kroil to mold handle hinge with a droper
6. Apply 1 drop of Kroil to sprue plate screw
7. Apply 1 drop of Kroil to both mold pins, both sides
8. Turn on lead furnace
9. Set mold over top of furnace until lead melts
10. Once lead reaches 800 deg, fill mold.
11. Wait for lead cap to frost, and knock open sprue plate.
12. Open mold, tap handle hinge to drop beautiful bullets into bucket of water. Repeat.

Bonus step: Go back and read hours of wonderful knowledge from these guys.

[prs]

You did pretty well with WW alloy and then not so good with WW alloy blended with more lead. You took a tin poor antimonial lead alloy and were lucky to do well with it, by adding more lead you have an even more tin poor alloy. Add enough lead free solder or other tin source to the alloy so that you are close to 2% tin content by weight. Then also follow the advice above for pre-heating mold.

prs

[mrrch]

+1 on preheating your mold. I had the same problems but I got it figured out by my third casting session.

[longbow]

Here's another vote on pre-heating your mould and just as importantly keep casting at a steady pace to keep the mould hot. Don't stop to examine each boolit as you cast.

Be careful pre-heating as you can overheat the mould too. I tend to watch for a bit of sprue plate lube smoke when I pre-heat. When the lube just starts to smoke the mould is actually a bit hot but casting starts well and the mould will cool a bit as you go and get into a steady casting cadence.

The sprue puddle should take a few seconds to freeze up and not be totally frozen when you cut the sprue. You don't want molten, it has to be "solid" but not quite full hard.

Longbow

[Wolfer]

I agree with all the above but the biggest problem I've had with wrinkles was because of oil in the cavities.
The lube doesn't actually have to get in, just the smoke from the Alighnment pins will cause wrinkles.
I have several Lee molds and while they are a little sticky when unlubed I can only get good boolits when their at the stage their needing lubed again.
Lube very sparingly before the mold heats up seems to help.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Not a patient person by nature. BUT...have been casting for about 2 weeks. 1st sessions weren't too bad. Things have gone downhill from there. Have varied temp from about 600*F to almost 800*F and bullets continue to have wrinkles and voids. Using Lee aluminum molds, cleaned & lubed (sparingly). Started out with WW alloy then added some plumber's lead. Have fluxed a couple of times with sawdust. Any suggestions about where to go from here would be appreciated.
See this FAQ
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256654-quot-Why-are-my-bullets-wrinkled-quot

after you click on the link that is in this link, be sure to read from the first post to AT LEAST the 10th post...it should help you understand why your mold needs to be hotter.

[cbrick]

I first recommend forget the smoking the cavities. How many times have you now cleaned it and how much time have you spent doing so? Now the first thing you do is gunk it up? Smoking a mold is an old wives tale and will do nothing to prevent wrinkled bullets. The very best casting mold is a perfectly clean mold.

As was said, make sure it's CLEAN, use bullplate sprue lube (2 cycle oil) VERY sparingly on the underside of the sprue, use a Q-tip to almost dry it. Pre-heat the mold using a hot plate. Do not inspect your bullets while casting, aluminum looses it's heat VERY quickly while your doing that, keep casting and when they start to frost simply slow up a bit but keep casting. Keep the mold closed and full as much as possible. It is important to keep the sprue plate hot also, do this by pouring a very generous sprue puddle & look at that as pouring heat. Don't worry about water dropping them, you didn't say what your casting for but making them harder is probably not needed. Again you didn't say what your casting but the straight WW should cast well, no more than 2% tin will help with fill out. Keep the pot temp at around 700 degrees or only slightly hotter.

Rick

[Handloader109]

I'll give you my take on casting,being new myself. I agree that heat makes a difference,but in my use of four different molds for my 9mm, there is a lot of difference in the molds results with different alloys. My NOE HP mold wont drop a decent bullet with the sa,me alloy I have used with the RN from Lee. It ain't temperature..... Or cleanliness...... Or contamination. Needs more tin. WW and straight range lead won't cut it.

[nemesisenforcer]

Frankford Arsenal Drop out spray. I've tried smoking the molds, but never had any luck with anything other than Frankford.

[bangerjim]

I NEVER clean my molds. And cast PERFECT boolits from the 1st one right out of the box. I have proven in over 25 molds oil does NOT cause wrinkles. I lube my molds with PAM for casting hot melt glue boolits and only wipe them off lightly and go right back to casting lead with NO wrinkles. And there IS PAM in there!

Scrub and clean all you want, you will still get wrinlkes!

OK......what causes them you ask:

Peheat you molds to FULL CASTING TEMP on a hotplate as several have stated above. A FULL HOT mold will give you excellent results. A hot plate is faster and more efficient than just laying them on top of your casting pot. And you can also preheat your feed ingots too!!!!!!

Wrinkles are 95% of the time generally caused by cold mold, cold mix....OR......LACK OF TIN! Your WW's have only 0.5% Sn and you are just diluting it even more adding pure lead as said. Add some pure Sb or solder or pewter and get that Sn content up to 2%. Sn lowers the surface tension of the molten lead and gives you excellent fills and no wrinkles. Try it. It is amazing what that little % of Sn will do for you!

Wrinkles can also be caused by you not pouring the molten lead directly down the sprue hole and you are getting a swirl down in there. Try to pour right down the hole and not the edge. Don't treat the sprue as a swirling sewer drain.....hit the hole dead on.

Let us know how you do!

bangerjim

[John Boy]

Once lead reaches 800 deg, fill mold.
800 degrees is not a valid absolute constant temperature! Each mold is different and I have cast with 205 molds in my collection

Heat the pot alloy and mold to a temperature which will be less than 800 degrees - with a clean mold - constant rhythm - with a 5 seconds pour so the sprue puddle frosts in 5 seconds. It's that simple.

I cast on a yearly average close to 4000+ bullets with different alloys from 42 to 550 grs that are perfectly filled out, sharp bases and with no wrinkles - not frosted and the Bell Curve weights are within 1 gr. You might ask, so ... the 42 gr pure lead bullets are used to reload 22LR primed empty cases with black powder

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Casting/Hoch322215Bullets_zps3d55d6c3.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Casting/Hoch322215Bullets_zps3d55d6c3.jpg.html)

[sthwestvictoria]

Obviously I agree with the warm mould - like others I preheat on an electric hotplate. I also support the idea of adding more tin, I use charity shop pewter at around the 2% by weight to Wheel Weights (shooting rifle).

I am curious about BangerJims contention about oil not being a factor. I have always just followed suggestions of others here and degreased and cleaned. Perhaps I will trial a casting session after oiling and not cleaning.

[dromia]

I rarely cast at that high a temperature, most of my casting is done around 700, except for pure lead which I run about 750.

I never put anything in the cavities but melted alloy, I never clean new moulds but I do season them for a week or so on top of the cast iron stove. If you feel the need for smoking the mould or using mould srelease then you have another problem that needs dealing with.

I lube the mould with Bull plate lube as cbricks instructions and then get it up to temperature by sticking it in the melt if aluminium or with a blow torch if iron or brass, I keep the torch moving and have never had any warping over thirty years and hundreds of moulds.

The key is getting the mould, and the sprue plate, up to temperature, especially with aluminium moulds. The aluminium will heat up long before the steel sprue plate, I like to get my mould very hot to start with so that the sprue puddle takes a while to solidify I then cast slowly till the mould cools to my casting temperature and then away we go.

Get the sprue plate hot too not just the mould.

[kevmc]

Lots of good advice above!!!
You've found the right spot to get all your questions answered...so you will have success. Period!
Clean, HOT mold will get you there.

[snowtigger]

Where did you get your WW metal? If you smelted it yourself at 800 degrees, you may have also melted some Zinc into the melt. Zinc is a no-no. WW metal should melt at 650 or a little cooler. Zinc, considerately hotter, enough so you should be able to skim it off with the clips and other dross before hitting their melt temp.

[bangerjim]

Obviously I agree with the warm mould - like others I preheat on an electric hotplate. I also support the idea of adding more tin, I use charity shop pewter at around the 2% by weight to Wheel Weights (shooting rifle).

I am curious about BangerJims contention about oil not being a factor. I have always just followed suggestions of others here and degreased and cleaned. Perhaps I will trial a casting session after oiling and not cleaning.

I too always followed the scrub and clean and clean and scrub old technique until one day years ago I got a new Lee mold and was anxious to try it. Just casually wiped it off with a paper towel and put it directly on the hot plate. Once up to CASTING TEMP (very important!!!) it dropped perfect 255gn slugs.

And I do use at least 6 of my 38's and 45's to cast hot melt glue (HMG) which uses PAM (can you say OIL!) as a cavity/sprueplate lube. Not a problem (after a quick wipe with a papertowl and Q-Tip) going back to hot lead from cold PAM! (with HMG you cool the mold with ice cubes!)

Try it.......and see for your self. An easy test anyone can do at home!

Works for me with every one of my Al Lee molds...........your mileage may vary!

If you stop and really think about the physics, thermodynamics, and chemistry that goes on in the mold cavity, there is no way a teeny weeny little bit of grease/oil could cause all those big ugly wrinkles! Over and over. Time afer time. Mabe once...until you melt and transfer it out with a drop or two. It's low temps, alloy pouring techniques, and low Sn content/alloy mix that are the gremlins of wrinkles.

DISCLAIMER: The above information is based upon my personal many-times tested and proven experience, not olde wive's tales that have been around for way too long. Beleive what you want. This is tested on ONLY aluminum molds from Lee and other fine suppliers.

More time casting boolits....less time scrubbing molds.

Have fun casting wrinkle-free pills!!!!!!!!

bangerjim

[cbrick]

Lots of good advice above!!!
You've found the right spot to get all your questions answered...so you will have success. Period!
Clean, HOT mold will get you there.

Precisely kevmc!

Anyone that wishes to not clean their molds are of course free to cast that way.

Oil in a cavity WILL prevent proper fill-out or getting GOOD bullets. Anyone that may doubt this I suggest that you don't take anyone's word for it, a very simple test that you can easily do yourself will give you the correct answer in very short order. The next time your casting place a small amount oil in one of the cavities and start casting.

For 10 years on this forum I have I have been trying to help newbies avoid as much aggravation and disappointment as possible by saying . . . The very best casting mold is a perfectly clean mold.

Rick

[DickelDawg]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Gotta go try some of these. Seems like mould temp is at least part of my problem.

[bangerjim]

Rick...........I agree 100%. Do not take my word (and perhaps 100+ different successful casting sessions) for it. Just take a Q-TIP and smear a bit of PAM or light machine oil (similar to that they coat molds with at the factory) in a cavity or two and, after bring the mold up to complete casting temp (that is the key here!), try a few pours. I get very few if any wrinkles with my many molds. Just a quick wipe with a towel and a quick swab with a dry Q-Tip removes any "dripping" oil, but definitely leaves that dreaded thin film so many on here bemoan causes wrinkles.

But please, everyone just give it a simple test try. It has worked for me for a long time. And I was not just born April 2013 when I found this most excellent forum.

And thanks for your many years of tireless support and help to those learning (and relearning) this fun hobby!

bangerjim

[bangerjim]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Gotta go try some of these. Seems like mould temp is at least part of my problem.

Excellent! It is amazing what a hot(er) mold and, if needed, raising your mix to 2% Sn will do for your path to perfect projectile Valhalla.

banger

[Tom W.]

I can't say anything bad about spraying the molds with Rem Oil after casting. A few pours and it's gone, with pretty boolits as a result.:bigsmyl2: I would say that if you are going to smoke a mold ( and yes, sometimes it is necessary, at least for me with new molds ) use a few kitchen matches rather than a candle.. and if you try bullet lube as a hinge pin and sprue plate lube, don't let it get on the faces or in the cavities of the molds.:groner:

[prs]

Another factor, DicklyDog(the OP) is in Colorado. It has gotten colder there as winter approaches. Cooler ambient temps such heat from your mold, more reason to do the things stated to increase and maintain mold heat.

prs

[DickelDawg]

Thanks again for all the help. I believe problem is solved. Homemade vent fan moves too much air. Moved pot a little out from under the little hood I made.

[GhostHawk]

Very small piece of advice for you.

Find a convient container from cool whip size up to half a gallon, fold a towel in the bottom and put an inch or so of cold water in it.

Now, once you have your lead hot, your mold hot, and the sprue is starting to cut easy DON"T DO OR CHANGE ANYTHING.

Just get in that zen groove and ride it!

Cast at least 50, don't look at them, don't sweat how they look, just CAST.
Once you get the rhythm right everything will come together, and the few dud's you cast are no big deal. Just sort them out and throw them back into the pot for next time.

But it is important to JUST CAST, don't over think it, don't tinker, don't look at bullets, don't get distracted, don't have a phone on you in hearing range. Not at first.

Be at one with the pot, the mold, and totally in the moment.

Then when you get hot, tired, sweaty, irritable stop. Turn off the heat, go lay your bullets out on a dry towel and sort.

2 piles.
Good boolits, nothing more than some frost or a few wrinkles, Good fill, clean cut lube grooves, no missing parts, crooked bases, etc.

Bad Boolits, improperly formed, missing lead in some spot, obviously not round, true perfect boolits that will shoot straight.

Don't beat yourself up over the bad ones. Lead recycles perfectly. Let them dry, eventually they will go back into the pot.

No blame, no guilt, you did what you did, your learning, you don't expect 100% success. Frankly if you get more than 60% good ones in your first year of casting your doing well.

If your not, then it may be time to clean out the pot and start with clean lead with known tin content.

If your doing it right you should be dropping a pair of boolits 5-6 seconds after you filled the mold. Just enough time for the sprue to set.
Not enough time for the mold to cool off.

If I get interupted I set the mold on the top of the lead pot. And I may dunk a corner before starting to cast again.
Or I will pour 2-3 ladle's full of lead along the side to make sure the mold is up to heat. Then get back into the groove asap.

Don't sweat the small stuff!

[wv109323]

I will add one more thing that can make a difference. I didn't see it in your OP. You need to get the lead in the mold cavity as quickly as possible. I was casting with a lee six cavity and could not get acceptable boolits. The lead was coming out of my Lyman bottom pour at a fast dribble. I took a piece of wire and cleared the nozzle. Lead starting pouring much quicker and I got acceptable boolits. I run my lead at 725* and use a hot plate to preheat.

[cbrick]

I would say that if you are going to smoke a mold ( and yes, sometimes it is necessary,

Ok, if it's necessary what is it necessary for, what does it do?

IF smoking a mold does anything other than gunk up a mold and plug vent lines it would be to cover up a problem. If there is a problem much better to find the problem and correct it than make an attempt at covering it up.

The best casting molds are perfectly clean molds.

Rick

[bangerjim]

What smoking a mold appears to do (at least from my scientific observations and ideas) is fill in the microscopic grooves/pits that can be in the machined cavities of the molds. Those surfaces look shiny and smoothe but the ARE made with a boring bar/cherry and leave microgrooves and scratches behind.

The TYPE of smoke appears in my tests to makes a significent difference. I have found an ultra-fine smoke such as a "lazy" acetylene flame or beeswax candle flame seems to work much better than plain old parafin candles.

I can see possibly (your prerogative!) smoking a mold ONCE when it is new....a light "non-gunked" coating. If a caster feels the need to smoke over and over again to try and stop sticking and poor dropping, there is something else wrong and other corrective steps should be definitely looked at. Multi-smoking will "gunk" up the cavities as you mentioned.

Mabe the smoke thing is another wive's tale handed down the same way the oil-caused wrinkles has been?????? My grandfather smoked his molds and used beeswax to lube the cavities!!!!!!!! Kept the table full of game year round!

That's my view from this end of the barrel! [smilie=s:

banger

[paul h]

Some molds can be finicky, but I can't think of a single Lee mold I've had that has been difficult to cast with.

I think what most new casters have a tough time with is getting the mold good and hot and casting quickly enough to keep the heat in the mold. I've cast over 1000#'s of coww's from 100-500 gr in every conceivable mold material and from singles to gang molds. I've never had a problem getting complete fillout with ww's.

The key is a hot mold cast quickly enough to keep the heat in it. When the mold is up to temp, the sprue will take a few seconds to solidify and several more seconds to go from shiny to dull. If your sprue freezes instantly and is a dull silver color, your mold isn't hot enough. Just keep casting as quickly as possible and the mold will come up to temp and your bullets will fill out. If the sprue won't form and the excess runs off like water, then your mold is too hot and you'll have to turn the furnace down.

I've never found oil in the cavities to cause wrinkles, but it will cause porosity. You can either clean it out, or just keep casting and burn it out. You do need some lube for the sprue plate, and if you get on too much, you'll see porosity in your bullets, but again after a few cycles it'll burn out.

Just keep at it. Plan to cast an entire 10# pot. It may take 1/2 the pot to get the temp and tempo right, but you will produce good boolits. As with anything it takes some practice to get it right, but it's not like learning a concerto.

[bangerjim]

Another "indicator" of mold temp is found when you water drop your boolits. I drop all to just cool them off, not to gain any hardness, as I PC and bake them all now.

When your lead and mold is up to corrct temp, your drops will "talk" to you with a firm sizzle as they hit the water. No talkie.......too cold. A small explosion....too hot! A little experience and you can get a very good handle on the mold/lead temp pretty easily. You will quiclky learn the "sweet spot" sound you are looking for!

Been using that one of years.......long B4 this madness for PID controllers on pots and molds has taken over this place.

banger

[GhostHawk]

I have smoked all my molds, "once" the day I received them.
I have yet to ever smoke one twice. To me the smoke just fills some of the pores, allows for a quick easy release.


I also tend to polish the fill holes in the sprue cutter. It is my experience that the tool marks tend to allow lead to collect and sit around the hole. I also take a file and take off a bit of the sharp edge that can score the top of the mold. Not much, half a dozen strokes just to round the corner will do it. That one I think is mostly cosmetic, but could have a long term impact.

If I see lead accumulating on the sprue plate a little bullet lube and steel wool cleans it quickly and seems to help keep it from reoccurring.

There are lots of little tricks to casting, some make a difference, some just make a difference in you. You "Believe" they work so they work.
For you, for someone else they may not.


I learned it doing fishing sinkers, the small ones always seemed to want to hang a sinker in the mold. Throwing off routine and rhythm,
allowing the mold to cool while I pried it out and usually burning myself in the process.

In my experience unless there is a burr or something physically allowing the boolit/sinker to hang a one time smoking didn't hurt anything.
And tended to make for fast easy release.

It is what I believe, you can choose to believe something else. Its a big world, room for both sides on that argument.