Leading issue with New Load

[fpsaholic]

A buddy gave me 1000 Dardas bullets, DEWC 148gn, 16-18 BHN, for 38 special cast to 0.358. I loaded them for my new S&W Model 66 with CCI Primers and 3.0 gn of Tightgroup. The OAL was 1.230. The pictures were taken after just 24 rounds. Could someone tell me where I'm going wrong?

I new to using cast bullets, and was hoping to get into making my own after these were used up, but the amount of leading here seems excessive. Any Help?

[AFK]

My guess would be a light load of titegroup not causing the bullet to expand enough to seal. Remedy with softer bullet or higher charge. Please note that I am new to the cast bullet scene and I am sure that others with more experience will respond as well.

[stubert]

I have never seen leading in the cylinder, how can that be? Do you have a burr or something that is shaving off flakes?

[fpsaholic]

I have never seen leading in the cylinder, how can that be? Do you have a burr or something that is shaving off flakes?
No, It's never happened before with factory or copper plated reloads

[GSaltzman]

16-18BHN is way harder than you need for that application. Once you get the lead cleaned out from the cylinder throats see if you can push your wadcutter through the throats. For a good fit you should be able to push them through with light pressure. .358 should work but it's always good to check. Never liked bevel base boolits but that is me. Most lube on these boolits are far to hard and do little of nothing. Start out with a clean gun and check measurements. Good luck!

[Roosters]

I have never seen leading in the cylinder, how can that be? Do you have a burr or something that is shaving off flakes?

38 special in a 357 magnum loaded to a coal shorter than 357 magnum brass, so yes it crossed a ridge.
Problem could be after it shaved that much off it was under sized by the time it got to the barrel = leading.

[GP100man]

First thoughts were the boolit is too small 358 ???

Measure em & see, bet they ain`t.

The only way to lead a cyl/barrel that bad in that few shots is undersized boolits.

Ya may try putting a bit of roll crimp to get the powder going good before launch, thus building a bit of pressure just may make the boolit seal.

How are you crimping these, if using a FC or taper crimp ya may be down sizing the boolit then .
Pull a loaded round & measure against a unseated boolit, are they the same ???

My wadcutter alloy is 9-10bhn.

Lastly there is a reason why ya buddy gave em to ya & now ya know !!

If those were given to me I`d melt em down & cast em into NOEs 358429s & give em a good dose of 2400!!

But measuring is what I`d start with to answer questions.

GP

[james nicholson]

You have received some good advice here already. I would try 357 mag brass with a hotter load, after seeing if you are crimping the boolit down excessively and verifying it is indeed .358 when it starts its journey down the barrel. I may be wrong, but that hard of a boolit in a 357 would need to be doing at least 950 fps.

[bedbugbilly]

Are you going on the .358 because of what you were told or what the box says . . . or have you measured them and that's what you got?

Just for information sake . . . I only shoot lead in all of my 38s and 357s (7 or 8 different revolvers). I shoot all different lengths - i.e. 38 Colt Short, Long and 38 Spl out of 357s all the time so there is quite a jumbo from the casing to the forcing cone - especially on the Colt Shorts. I have never had an issue of lead in the cylinder nor in the barrels (knock on wood) - and I TL with alox/pastewax.

I'd start by measuring some randomly picked boolits just to make sure that they are .358. Then, if they are, I'd be looking at the hardness of them. You might be able to compare by loading some softer WC sized to .358 with the same powder load and see what happens and if you still get the leading. If not, then you know it's a "boolit problem".

The leading in the chamber has me scratching my head. If you get none of this with factory loads, I think that pretty much points to the boolit you are using - either undersize or too hard?

Next question is do/have you shot factory loaded lead WC in that pistol and what were the results?

If your boolits truly are .358 . . . then what does your bore slug out at?

Sorry you're having that problem . . . hopefully you can narrow it down as we all can learn form it. Good luck!

[roberts1]

Easiest place to start is to try to push one through the cylinder as stated above. If they fall right through they are too small. If you are bent on using them you could boil off the lube and powdercoat them (check out the shake and bake method in the coatings section easy and cheap) which will effectively increase their size a bit and perhaps make them usable.

[fpsaholic]

I measured the bullets, they spec out at 0.358, I'm still working on slugging the barrel. The cylinder is 0.3575 on the barrel end, so a loose bullet will stop prior to passing through. It definitely is tighter on that end.

[Motor]

I have some hard cast boolits for my 41mag that are in the same hardness range as your .358s. If I load a light target they will lead my barrel.

When I load them with W-296 to magnum velocity they work fine.

Motor

[MT Chambers]

Why would they make WC bullets at BHN 18? They are meant for 800 fps and are very accurate but usually made of much softer alloy, including pure lead swaged wadcutters.

[bruce381]

Most obvious is charp edge at cylinder throat scrapping lead, should not see that at all hard boolit or not.
Clean cylinder throats and maybe polish throat area a bit with 600 grit papper wraped on a wood dowel, that is way serious scraping and the throat should have a smother tapper.

[bruce381]

also yes way too hard for slow speed laod, need softer alloy too

[Roosters]

If you look at the cylinder in the picture with the barrel it looks clean where the 38 brass would be. Then just a little dirty till you get about where a 357 case mouth would be then looks like a ring of build up of crud, fouling, carbon or whatever from shooting 357s.

[bgokk]

I would tumble lube some of the boolits with alox or 45/45/10. Try 20 or 30 and see what happens.

[hunter74]

They are way to hard! In my guns wadcutters work best at abiut 12 bhn. Thats my standard alloy I use in most calibers except for magnum loads.

I got similar results as thread starter with comercial cast with 18 bhn wadcutters. They leaded barrel and cylinder horrible with 3.0 gr of N310. With lighter loads the precision was horrible!

It's safe to say that your boolits are too hard for light wadcutter loads but if they where mine i would try a slower powder and loaded them a bit faster. They could work a little better with a softer launch and with more speed. It's only one way to find out! Good luck!

[MSD MIke]

With the DEWC shot in 38 brass in a 357 revolver I have had the best luck seating he bullet out far enough to enter the throat slightly. When seated at standard length I had leading in the cylinder and first part of the barrel even with a soft bullet and lube until I did this. Seated the bullet out so it enters the throat and problem solved. Of course you bullet must fit the throat for this to work.
This has worked in more than one of my .357 revolvers, all with .358 throats and bullets.
What others have said about bullet hardness a lube hardness is also true.

Thanks
Mike

[cbrick]

With the DEWC shot in 38 brass in a 357 revolver I have had the best luck seating he bullet out far enough to enter the throat slightly. When seated at standard length I had leading in the cylinder and first part of the barrel even with a soft bullet and lube until I did this. Seated the bullet out so it enters the throat and problem solved. Of course you bullet must fit the throat for this to work.
This has worked in more than one of my .357 revolvers, all with .358 throats and bullets.
What others have said about bullet hardness a lube hardness is also true. Thanks Mike

This ^^^^
The chamber doesn't hold the cartridge snug or aligned with the center line of the throats or the center line of the bore, it lays in the chamber at a downward angle. Notice the leading on one edge of the throats? When the round was fired that edge of the throat was on the bottom and that is where the bullet was aimed, the bullet has to "find" the throat and glance off the edge of throat and then into the throat shaving lead. Once the edge of the bullet is shaved on one side it won't seal the throat or the bore well and it leaves the shaved lead in the throat. The result is what you see in the pictures, a leaded cylinder and a leaded bore.

I also don't understand why any bullet destined for the 38 Special would be 18 BHN but doubt that's the worst of the problem.

BTW, welcome to CastBoolits. That's a great first post with the pics.

Rick

[Three44s]

I would tumble lube some of the boolits with alox or 45/45/10. Try 20 or 30 and see what happens.

+10 on this!

I would be sure you are belling the mouths of .357 cases and not .38 spec. and treat your boolits with the above or at least Lee's liquid alox. Seat the boolits out a bit on a round or two and chamber them to see if you can get them to rest in the throat (alignment issue).

You will need to play with charges and even other powders perhaps to see if driving this slug a bit harder. A somewhat slower powder like Unique comes to mind.

For my guns, I clean initially with JB or USP bore paste. As a mild abrasive I clean tool marks and remove hard fouling. I then treat with CorrosionX and dry the internals off with clean patches.

Fouling does not recruit as quickly with the above. It's dramatic.

As fouling and leading abates ....... I shelve the abrasive bore pastes and stick with the CorrosionX.

For heavy leading, I use the eternal favorite: Copper Chore Boy and my forcing cones get the Lewis lead remover.

Good luck and good shooting!

Three 44s

[fpsaholic]

This ^^^^
The chamber doesn't hold the cartridge snug or aligned with the center line of the throats or the center line of the bore, it lays in the chamber at a downward angle. Notice the leading on one edge of the throats? When the round was fired that edge of the throat was on the bottom and that is where the bullet was aimed, the bullet has to "find" the throat and glance off the edge of throat and then into the throat shaving lead. Once the edge of the bullet is shaved on one side it won't seal the throat or the bore well and it leaves the shaved lead in the throat. The result is what you see in the pictures, a leaded cylinder and a leaded bore.

I also don't understand why any bullet destined for the 38 Special would be 18 BHN but doubt that's the worst of the problem.

BTW, welcome to CastBoolits. That's a great first post with the pics.

Rick
Thanks, I never thought about it that way! How would changing OAL effect powder charge? Unfortunately, I only have Tightgroup and Clays (regular) for powder. Should I just push the load to Maximum with Tightgroup (3.3gn vs the 3.0 gn I used) Then lube and increase the OAL to meet the throat?

[cbrick]

If you increase the powder capacity by not seating as deep you'll have a lighter load and may want up the charge bit to compensate, shooting and testing will tell you this. No need to go to a max load if you don't want to. The whole idea here is to aim the bullet at the center line of the throat/bore and not at the edge of the throat. In my long range revolver I use a heavy for caliber bullet and seat the entire front driving band inside the throat when chambered. I also only length size down the case as far as the bullet seats in the case creating kinda a bottle neck so the rear of the case also helps align the bullet.

Rick

[roberts1]

I like clays for my 38 plinking loads. I use 3 grains for a 158 grain swc in 38 cases shot thru an sp 101 tho I don't think changing powders will solve your issue. Since it sounds like your bullets are correctly sized I agree with the too hard/too short theory. Those could be melted down and mixed with the same amount of pure lead to make twice as many suitably hard wad cutters if lengthening the oal doesn't help. Can you get your hands on some 357 brass? that would at least take that variable out of the equasion.