Sizing 45/70 govt brass

[karlrudin]

I recently started loading for 45-70 and the cases are EXPENSIVE. I neck size all of my other calibers which happen to be bottle necked. I don't work with straight cases til this one. I bought a full length die set and was wondering if I can back up the die 1 turn to only size part of the case. I have shot a box of factory ammo till my brass comes in and the fired cases fell back into the chamber of my new H & R Handi rifle without a problem. This is why I don't think they need full length sizing for now. Comments please.

[Char-Gar]

The 45-70 case is not straight but has a taper. It goes from .5039 at the base ahead of the web to .4800 at the case mouth. The fly in the ointment about about backing off a regular die is that it is possible to back it so far off the case mouth is not sized enough for proper bullet retention.

There are 45-70 neck sizing dies available, with the Lyman 310 coming to my mind first in line.

[btroj]

I size enough to get good bullet pull, no more. This is where it is up to you, as the loader, to determine how to best set up the dies.

[Char-Gar]

I have both a Ruger No. 3 and a Marlin levergun in 45-70. I size my cases in a Wilson FL hand type sizing die using an arbor press for muscle. These dies are not often seen and are no longer available from Wilson.

It produces cases that have the bullet retention/mouth of the cases sized to a cylinder measuring .466, said cylinder extending to just above where the cannelure is on most cases. The rest of the case is minimally sized being .500 above the web and .494 at the mid-point. The inside diameter of the case mouth/neck is .452 (Winchester cases) which I can expand to retain any bullet I want to use.

If a case is going to split it will be in the reduced neck portion, so I anneal the cases every five firings and get excellent case life.

As an aside, most of us neck size bottle neck cases to preserve the headspace fit of the case to the chamber thereby stopping the case from stretching each time it is fired, which will result after a while, in a case head separation. We will also most often get a smidge better accuracy with neck sized cases that fit the chamber.

A rimmed case has it's headspace controlled by the rim and a straight/tapered case has no shoulder on which to headspace. On a bottle neck rimmed case like the 30-30 and 30-40 I only partially size the case body for good feeding, keeping the die away from the shoulder to preserve the headspace.

With rimmed straight/tapered cases like the 45-70 we are pretty much at the mercy of the rifle headspace, with not much we can do with handloading to compensate. Anyway splitting will come from work hardening the neck area and annealing will deal with that issue.

Therefore I don't see much advantage to neck sizing only 45-70 brass if case life is the issue. You are going to anneal the top half of the case anyway if you want long case life.

[John Allen]

I recently started loading for 45-70 and the cases are EXPENSIVE. I neck size all of my other calibers which happen to be bottle necked. I don't work with straight cases til this one. I bought a full length die set and was wondering if I can back up the die 1 turn to only size part of the case. I have shot a box of factory ammo till my brass comes in and the fired cases fell back into the chamber of my new H & R Handi rifle without a problem. This is why I don't think they need full length sizing for now. Comments please.


Karl, I shoot quite a few 45/70s I full length size them all for convenience. If you anneal them about every 6 to 10 times of realoading you will be fine. I also do not run my 45/70's hot. Most of my loads are mild. The only things I sort are the blackpowder ones from the smokeless ones.

[country gent]

I load 45-70, 45-90, and 40-65 neck sizing only the first 1/2" or so of case from mouth down. I siaze to just below the base of the bullet and only enough to provide the wanted bullet tension for the bullet dia being used. To do this I use a mecham bushing die with interchangable bushings. I can change bushing as needed as to caliber, bullet dia, or paper patched or grease grooved groove dia. Neck dia times 2 and bullet dia gives loaded round dia for a snug slip fit load subtract wanted tension ( can be .0000 to .003) from this dia and you have bushing dia less spring back. I ussually get a bushing + and - .001 on either side of the target to experiment with also. With a single shot there isnt any need for super heavy tension as no rounds are sublected to pulling resetting due to recoil. Experiment a little and enjoy the journey

[GoodOlBoy]

I use a Lee Classic loader set. Only sizing that get's done is neck sizing unless something weird is going on with the chamber. If the cases are dropping back into the chamber for you then honestly don't need to size them. I use a flaring tool to lightly flare the case mouth, seat, and crimp on 99% of my brass without doing much else.

GoodOlBoy

[Scharfschuetze]

Years ago, I used a Lyman 310 tool for 45/70s and it only neck sized the case (like the Lee Loader above). I found an adapter for the 310 sizer for my Rockchucker press 20 some years ago and this is what I now use for 95% of my 45/70 sizing chores.

It's hard to make out the sized area in the photo, so I indicated it with the arrow. You can also see the Lyman 310 sizing die in the adapter for my Rock Chucker press and a loaded round on the right.

[karlrudin]

To fill in some more blanks of an explanation, I will be using low loads on all my loads. Medically I can't take heavy or moderate recoil. So I stay with low loads. I was pleasantly surprised with the Trailboss loads. Much less than expected. I am using a H & R Handirifle. I did fill the stock with steel bb's and added a bi-pod for extra weight. My loads will be mostly pistol powders or fast rifle powders on the low end of Trapdoor loads. 405 Lee mold. So case stretch should be kept to a minimum. Like I said above. I haven't done straight or mostly straight cases and needed input. Thanks a lot y'all. This forum never ceases to amaze me on the good people here and the great and varied information.

[Artful]

Doesn't sound like it will help you but 45 colt dies can be used to size the mouth of 45-70 cases.
I also notice a difference between brands of cases in the rim sizes.

[GoodOlBoy]

yeah rim size can vary (OLD rem-umc vs ANYTHING else), length can vary (Hornady vs ANYTHING else) etc. I wouldn't size with 45 colt dies. You are looking at .452-.454 (depending on the die) in 45LC VS .457-.459 (again die) in 45-70.

GoodOlBoy

[Artful]

yeah rim size can vary (OLD rem-umc vs ANYTHING else), length can vary (Hornady vs ANYTHING else) etc. I wouldn't size with 45 colt dies. You are looking at .452-.454 (depending on the die) in 45LC VS .457-.459 (again die) in 45-70.

GoodOlBoy

GoodOlBoy - who's dies are you measuring?

.45 colt cartridge
http://www.lasc.us/45Colt-Cart-Dimen-3.jpg
NOTE .480 straight wall case
- using carbide die (donut) for neck sizing ONLY on
the first part of the .45-70 case which is also .480 at the mouth
- the tapered 45-70 case so you can't use the 45 colt die
to do more than the first part of the 45-70 case.
http://www.shootersforum.com/attachments/wildcat-cartridges/6811d1199646784-rimmed-cartridges-375-wildcat-45-70government.jpg
Notice in the drawing the mouth of the 45-70 is .480
and stays that size for a bit before transforming into a taper
towards the rim.
might be easier seen in this drawing
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/45-70_Govt__PedersoliwithPGTBullet.gif (http://s684.photobucket.com/user/montana_charlie/media/45-70_Govt__PedersoliwithPGTBullet.gif.html)

[FLHTC]

Doesn't sound like it will help you but 45 colt dies can be used to size the mouth of 45-70 cases.
I also notice a difference between brands of cases in the rim sizes.

I've been doing that for years but care is needed to center the carbide ring over the case mouth.

[curator]

I've been shooting my .45-70 Handi-rifle for years without ever sizing the original brass. I am using a 430 grain, .462 diameter LBT "long flat-nose" boolit cast of ACWW. These thumb-seat perfectly in fired cases after being lubed conventionally (LBT blue) and then tumbled in LLA. I put a slight crimp on the case mouth to maintain seating depth. Cases last nearly forever and accuracy is outstanding. From my experience with a couple of Handi-.45-70s, they all shoot best with larger (.460-.462) diameter boolits anyway. Why work the brass unnecessarily?

[GoodOlBoy]

hrm well guess I was wrong. I was thinking about the ID of the cases, not the OD. Learn something every day.

GoodOlBoy

[oldfart1956]

Track of the Wolf sells the Lyman 45-70 neck sizing die. In stock $28.99 and fits any standard press. I'm just sayin. is all. Audie...the Oldfart..

[karlrudin]

So really what I'm seeing here for longevity, fire, don't resize if it chambers, crimp bullet to hold in place and not worry about it. Sounds like the cases will last almost forever lol

[Scharfschuetze]

Sounds like the cases will last almost forever lol

You know, now that you mention it, I don't think that I've ever had a split case with a 45/70. I've had a few cracks develop from crimping, but good annealing will delay that for quite a while, so yea, that 45/70 brass lasts a long time at my Trapdoor pressures and velocities.

[karlrudin]

You know, now that you mention it, I don't think that I've ever had a split case with a 45/70. I've had a few cracks develop from crimping, but good annealing will delay that for quite a while, so yea, that 45/70 brass lasts a long time at my Trapdoor pressures and velocities.





While you are sounding in on Trapdoor pressures and velocity loads, i have a question. I shoot clip on WW. For my 7-08 I water drop them. Should I let these 45 cals air cool. Not going to get much more velocity than 1200 fps.

[Scharfschuetze]

I used to use straight WW alloy in my Trapdoors and I just let the boolits air cool. For smokeless loads, I lubed them with either NRA 50/50 or with a version of the SPG black powder lube. They shot very well and I found them accurate on rocks and ant hills at extended range up on the high deserts of the Rocky Mountain States.

Current WW alloy seems to need a bit of tin added for good fill outs and now here in Washington State, WWs are almost gone due to recent laws banning lead. I still have a 5 gallon bucket of 'em and need to melt it down one of these day. I'll probably add 1% tin to the alloy as experience shows that to bring it back to the WW quality of past years.

[drinks]

When I first started with 45-70, all I could find in stock was r-p nickle plated ,on the first loading and firing more than 10 of the 50 had a split neck.
I now have un plated cases and have never had one split.
The plated cases went in the scrap brass bucket.

[hiram]

I slip a fired case in the full length die by hand, no press. It stops part of the way in. I use a marker to place a mark on the brass midpoint between base of brass and base of die. In the press I set the die so the brass goes up to that mark. I've had no problems doing this minimal sizing for the case, including the case mouth.

[Dthunter]

Redding also makes a decent neck sizing die for the 45-70. It works great for me.

[TXGunNut]

Track of the Wolf sells the Lyman 45-70 neck sizing die. In stock $28.99 and fits any standard press. I'm just sayin. is all. Audie...the Oldfart..

Works for me, too. That and Lyman's taper crimp die are a good combo for my 45-70 and 45-90.

[Wayne Smith]

When I was loading for a Trapdoor I found the most accurate load was a compressed load of BP with a Lyman 457125 thumb seated in an unsized case with a card wad between. That steel buttplate sure did hurt with that load, though!