Can you gentlemen help me figure this out?

[Jevyod]

I will try to write this as best I can. I need some help to figure this out. First, some background. I purchased a new 1895 SBL in 45-70, and a Accurate 46-415V to go with it. About 3 weeks ago, I took it out for the first time, and shot a 1.2" 5 shot group at 100 yards. I was extremely happy, and proceeded to load up 20 more. I just got back from the range, and was rather dis-heartened. The first group I shot was all over the place. It was like a 5 inch group. The next several groups proceeded to get a bit smaller, but I could get nothing better than 2.25. I felt good and solid in my shooting, and figured I should be able to do better.

I decided to eliminate some possibilities. I took random bullets and weighed them. Out of 6, my weights were from 419.5-423. I thought that seemed fairly consistent. I then shot several over my chronograph. 1335-1390. That doesn't seem too bad. I was extremely careful in case prep. I trimmed to the same length, and pretty much did all I could to be consistent.

Several thoughts; first of all, I expected velocity to be a bit higher. Secondly, I would periodically peer down my barrel between shots to watch for leading. While I saw no signs of leading, there seemed to be a bit more unburned powder in the barrel than I am used to seeing. Thirdly, I dug around in the berm to see if I could find any bullets. I found one, but the side was all smashed, indicating a side hit. I thought maybe my bullets were tumbling, but all the holes in the paper were clean cut.

There were several things different about the loads this time vs last. First of all, last time I used Vulcan copper checks. I went to order more, but they were out. I got some Gator checks instead. Secondly, I did not let the bullets sit as long before I loaded them. I do powdercoat, so I didn't figure that was the issue. Thirdly, I only did one coat of powdercoat instead of 2. I didn't think any of these things would make that much difference, but maybe they do.

And my load was 36 grains IMR4198 and CCI 200 primers. I did think that maybe the colder weather might have something to do with it? Last time it was probably 55 and today its more like 30. Anyway, sorry for the long post but wanted to give you all the info I could. So any thoughts? I need your help! Maybe I just had a terrible day of shooting!!!

[Tatume]

I took it out for the first time, and shot a 1.2" 5 shot group at 100 yards. ... Maybe I just had a terrible day of shooting!

It's more likely that on your first day you had a lucky group.They happen quite often. If everything is done right, one out of 20 groups will be significantly better than the others. If you only shot one good group, it may well have been that one.

Do you have a scope on the gun? For testing of the gun and ammunition you should mount a fairly powerful scope. You can take the scope off after you have tuned the gun and loads.

Bench technique with lever guns becomes critical too. They are sensitive to bag placement. Also, the fact that you have to take the gun out of the bags to operate the lever doesn't help either. Work on consistent technique, and you may see some improvement.

Take care, Tom

[Jevyod]

I do have a scope on the gun. But not very high powered. Its a Leupold 1-4x20....

[williamwaco]

1) The side "all smashed" doesn't indicate anything. If the bullet hit sideways it will make an oval shaped hole in the target. If your target has round holes, forget about that issue.

2) The weights and velocities are quite good.

3) According to published data, I would expect your load to produce 1350 fps +/- 50.

4) On the very first trip with new loads and a new gun, you were very intensely paying attention to what you were doing and were probably more careful about hold.

5) In my experience, with any load with cast of jacket bullets with any firearm from a 2" chief special to a 17 pound .222 with a 30x scope, I expect the smallest group to be one third the size of the largest and the average of say, ten groups, to be right in the middle.

6) I think you have concocted a load that will average about 2.5 with a minimum of around 1.25 and a maximum of around 5 inches.

7) My first rifle was a .22 Hornet with a 4x pre-war Weaver scope. Your scope is so far ahead of that that they can't even be reasonably compared. I could hit a dime every shot with that rig. ( If the wind was not blowing )

Summary: Those results sound quite normal to me. I expect you just need to do more load development.

[R. Dupraz]

Jevyod:

I have lever guns that are shot regularly, one of which is a Marlin
CB 38-55. And I agree with everything that Tatume already posted, especially the rare lucky group thing. Those levers can be pretty snotty sometimes but most times it's just a matter of finding the problem. When ever this kind of thing happens, I like to go back to the basics and start there. And I wouldn't worry about what the bullets look like after impact with the berm if they make nice round holes in the target. Probably distorted upon impact. Here are a few other things to check.

1. See if all the screws are tight. Especially the screws that hold the butt stock to the action. And then see if there is any movement between the butt stock and action.

2. Double check bullet fit to throat and groove. Have a rifle where the bore groove diameter was larger than the largest bullet that could be chambered. A chamber reamer fixed that.

3. When checking loads from a rest with a lever action, load only one round at a time, not from the magazine.

4. Try resting the rifle near the front of the action when over a rest or bags.

5. And yes, in my experience, changes in temp. can make a difference. Just have to adjust the load.


6. And, I usually let my cast bullets age for at least a 2-3 days because I have found that if not, they don't shoot as well.



Good luck





1. Double check bullet fit in the throat

[stephen m weiss]

Unburned powder causes inaccuracy if the unburned powder chunks are small enough to get wedged in the bearing lead in of the folllowon shots. Isolate this by firing after brushing or blowing out the barrel between shots for a few groups.

The comments on statistics are completely accurate. You gotta shoot a lot more groups. It's good practice anyway.

The poor powder burn issue is a bigger issue that is given voice here I think. I am playing with addressing that issue. I am about to post a development post regarding that.

[Jevyod]

I would be interested in hearing what you have found!

[murf205]

Jevyod, I had the same thing happen to me with a .243 M70 Winchester. Bought the thing at a gunshow in Birmingham and carried it home, mounted a scope and promptly shot a 1/2" 5 shot group---the one and only! Wore the barrel out trying to get the @#$%^ thing to shoot even a 1" group, but to no avail. Sometimes its better to have them shoot crappy from the start and then get accuracy later...makes us think we did something right. BTW my 2004 vintage Marlin 45/70 loves IMR 4759 and Accurate 2015. Might be worth a try to try some 5744 as well, never heard 1 bad experience about 5744.

[wv109323]

You didn't mention anything about bullet fit to the bore except the first bullets had two coats. I would examine that area a little more.