Colt vs S&W strength opinion please

[Dan Cash]

I am looking for a working .32-20 revolver and the major choices are Colt New Army/Official Police and Smith & Wesson M&P pre war (II) revolvers with some Colt Positive Specials thrown in.

I shoot a load of 10 grains of 2400 under a 105 grain cast bullet in my Marlin 94 .32-20. Thoughts on the suitability of that load for one or all of the revolvers mentioned.

Thanks
Dan

[Char-Gar]

There is not much to choose between the two as far as strength goes. Both of these sixguns can be problem children in the accuracy department. I have both. The Smith cylinder throats are .312 and the Colt Army Special is .316. Quite a difference. There are the only two I have ever measured, so I can't say what others of the same make are.

Smith and Wesson started heat treating their cylinders about 1930, so those are somewhat stronger than the previous ones.

[smkummer]

The colt new army would be my last choice, due to the very old obsolete action and parts situation. After that since I am a Colt guy, It would depend on if I wanted to hot-rod the 32-20. If I wanted to hot rod, it would be a post WW1 army special, I don't know if I have seen an official police in 32-20. If I was not hot rodding, then it would depend on if I like a small frame (police positive special) or medium frame(army special) and I would not be concerned if it was pre-WW1. I have heard Colt heat treated after WW1. The smith is of course a nice frame size as well. I think your short changing yourself with a 4 in. barrel and shooting 2400, the 5 or 6 would be better. In my testing with magnums, the 4 in barrel and 2400 did about the same as using unigue. Meaning using much less powder for the same results.

[Artful]

If it was me I'd be looking for a Buckeye Ruger Buckeye Special run Convertible, New Model Blackhawk with cylinders 32-20 W.C.F. and 32 H&R Magnum, catalog # S-32X - you could hotrod that puppy. Probably send 32 mag cylinder to have reamed to 327 fed mag.

[Outpost75]

Colt Offificial Police is heat treated. The pre-1930 Army Special is not. If you want to shoot Winchester 92 loads get a .30 carbine Ruger and use .32-20 brass in it. If you want to be able to interchange brass and ammo between the rifle and revolver, a Bowen cylinder blank for the Ruger costs about $300, and it will cost about that much more to get it properly chambered and fitted. Or find a Buckeye Special...

I got a custom cylinder done in .44-40 for my Ruger SBH, because Vaquero cylinders are too short and their dimensions fouled up. Am pleased with the result.

[9.3X62AL]

I got a custom cylinder done in .44-40 for my Ruger SBH, because Vaquero cylinders are too short and their dimensions fouled up. Am pleased with the result.

I gave some thought to a similar plot with a Bisley BH x 44 Magnum, having a 44-40 WCF tooled up for it. Since the "matching" carbine is a Win 73, I would not need the BH's strength for load swapping, and soon found a Uberti Cattleman that does good work as the 73's understudy.

My opinion--10.0 grains of 2400 is WAY too much powder for any bullet weight in the Colt New Army or the S&W M&P. I have one of each; the Colt throats are .312", the S&W's are .314". The Colt Police Positive Special is a bit more delicate than either of those. Ken Waters in his "Pet Loads" column within "Handloader" (and an assemblage of his articles of that same name by Wolfe Publications) gave as his Pet Load for revolvers a 115 grain bullet over 6.0 grains of IMR SR-4756. In my 5" barrels, this gives about 925 FPS. When I had the PPS, I cut that load back to 5.5 grains. These give decent accuracy in my guns and roughly correspond to black-powder velocities. They shoot fairly well in the Marlin, also--giving about 1225-1250 FPS.

[rintinglen]

S&W began heat treating cylinders right after The Great War in 1919 at serial number 81287 in the 32-20 series, in the 38 special guns above 316648 were heat treated, at least according to The Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson.

Colt began heat treating Revolver Cylinders in 1909 for the U.S. Army Model 1909, however, I have not been able to confirm when the Army Special began to have heat treated cylinders. The cut off is generally held to be 1927 when The Army Special was re-branded as the Official Police, however I have seen no authoritative written documentation to substantiate this, and this seems late compared to other Colt products.

The Police Positive Special supposedly had heat treated Cylinders from the get go in 1908, but I can not confirm that. There is a lot of "info" floating around, but darned little documentation to substantiate statements made. Belden and Haven's book, A History of The Colt Revolver and Other Arms....may have this information, but I don't have a copy.

[Dan Cash]

Thanks a lot for the information and advice. I mis stated calling the Colts under consideration New Army models. I meant to state Army Special. I must be getting old.

I don't want to hotrod the cartridge but if the revolver won't stand what I am feeding the carbine, I will stay with my existing caliber revolvers. As rintinglen said, there is a lot of information around but little documentation. It would be nice to know the pressure of the .32-20 load which I am using in the carbine.

[rintinglen]

PS. I totally concur with AL on the advisability of limiting the Army Special and M&P's to moderate loads. 10 grains of 2400 is a hot load in a Rifle, My S&W gets nothing hotter than 4.5 grains of Unique and the RCBS 32-98 SWC, while my Police Positive only gets 98 grain wadcutters over 3.3 grains of WW-231.
The Army Special is a fine gun, but Colt-competent gun smiths are getting to scarcer than Obama telling the truth. I would not hotrod it.

[Guesser]

I shoot 2 Army Specials in 32-20 but I don't hot rod them, get a more modern gun to do that with. A Ruger, modern Colt SAA, even an italian copy of the Colt SAA. I have 5 Colts in 32-20 all 1925 or earlier. I have a Uberti that I can juice up a little if I want but my new Ruger Single 7 gives me all the 32 juice needed.

[onceabull]

Although I believe a late (like 1940-41) Official Police in 32-20 is the strongest of the revolvers you mention, the cost of a decent (80 % finish,no timing issues) is likely to be darn close to a similar grade of Buckeye convertible,and it will a LOT harder to find....The Ruger is the only on of these I would consider hotrodding... Onceabull

[dubber123]

As a side note to this discussion, if this is a "working" revolver, pay close attention to the sights on the S&W's if you are buying online. I haven't yet pinned down the date, but I believe it to be some time in the 1920's when their sights went form "useless" to "very good". I have 32-20 revolvers with the gen 1 and gen 2 sights, and it is a world of difference. The gen 1 sights amount to a razor blade up front, and a hairline scratch in the back. Very hard to shoot.

[Harry O]

I have been shooting 32-20's for a little over 50 years and have handloaded them for all kinds of strength guns. I also shoot 10.0gr of 2400 with a 100gr Remington FN-SP bullet in my 1990's Marlin 94. I ONLY use that load in the rifle, though. I have (and have had) several handguns in 32-20, but I have not used that load in any of them.

I once bent the centerpin (ejector rod) in a pre-WWII K-frame S&W with an 8.0gr load of 2400 and a 100gr Hornady XTP. It was repaired and I stuck with the Ken Waters load for my handguns from then on. There is no problem with that load and it is powerful enough for that caliber.

I have some experience with the 41-frame Colts, but not in that caliber (38 Special and 41 Long Colt only). I would not shoot the Colt nor the S&W with the rifle load you listed. If you decide to try it anyway, make sure to let us know how it turned out. If you can type afterward.

[lawdog941]

If they are of the same era, they are both similar in strength. Mostly preference after that.

[Dan Cash]

Thanks to all once again for the information and advice. That is shy I was asking. The load I listed gives me 1600 fps from my carbind and I have read all the warnings about shooting the old factory high velocity ammo in 73 Winchesters and handguns. While this load is not up to the old advertised velocity of the High Velocity loading and is very reasonable in the carbine, I did not intent to spend 7 to 900 dollars on a vintage revolver just to bend it. I will forego a .32-20 revolver as a result of this inquiry as I don't want a Ruger and am happy with the calibers I now use. the .32 just seemd like fun.

[9.3X62AL]

There is a lot of good work that can be done with a 32-20 revolver of the 1900-1940 vintage and loads appropriate for their strength. I hunt varmints and small game with them quite a bit, and they are nigh-to-perfect as a jackrabbit whacker. They might do as a defensive number, too--a controlled-expansion bullet of 115-120 grains in weight running 925-950 FPS is right in line with Dr. Martin Fackler's views on what works as felon repellant. These loads have a sharp report, but recoil is very mild and shot placement is eased accordingly. These revolvers in 32-20 were quite popular for some time, and there has to be a reason for that......I suspect its tame recoil and enhanced velocity and bullet weight over the other 32 caliber revolvers of the day had much to do with this.

[Clark]

I have wrecked enough Colts and Smiths.
Half the time I split the cylinder, the top strap breaks.
Usually the top strap at least bends.

But I would be surprised if you could hurt a 32-20 in a work up. Finger tip extraction keeps the max pressure way down in a work up.
The hoop stress is low in 32-20s with small inside diameters and thick walls.

Even with an old miss timed Colt, I can top hat the primer.
I could probably dig up the brass. I have ~ 50 pounds of over stressed brass labelled and stored away over the last 12 years.

[historicfirearms]

I have wrecked enough Colts and Smiths.
Half the time I split the cylinder, the top strap breaks.
Usually the top strap at least bends.

But I would be surprised if you could hurt a 32-20 in a work up. Finger tip extraction keeps the max pressure way down in a work up.
The hoop stress is low in 32-20s with small inside diameters and thick walls.

Even with an old miss timed Colt, I can top hat the primer.
I could probably dig up the brass. I have ~ 50 pounds of over stressed brass labelled and stored away over the last 12 years.

WOW! That's interesting. Care to share why you did that?

[Char-Gar]

I have wrecked enough Colts and Smiths.
Half the time I split the cylinder, the top strap breaks.
Usually the top strap at least bends.

But I would be surprised if you could hurt a 32-20 in a work up. Finger tip extraction keeps the max pressure way down in a work up.
The hoop stress is low in 32-20s with small inside diameters and thick walls.

Even with an old miss timed Colt, I can top hat the primer.
I could probably dig up the brass. I have ~ 50 pounds of over stressed brass labelled and stored away over the last 12 years.

Jug, is that you!

[9.3X62AL]

Clark likes to test things.

[Char-Gar]

Clark likes to test things.

It would so appear.