Re-chamber Model 92 to .454. Casull

[hp246]

Anyone converted a Rossi 92 from .45 Colt to .454 Casull? Thinking about having one done to take advantage of new deer hunting rules in Michigan that allow for use of certain straight wall cartridges in southern Michigan. I know the action is strong enough. My biggest concern is that the gun is very finicky about cartridge length.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Take a look at your cartridge lifter. There is a stop on that lifter that bumps against the rim face area of the cartridge. Possibly your stop is just a bit on the thick side thus stopping the cartridge too far forward. The main issue to removing metal so the stop permits the cartridge to "slide" farther to the rear of the lifter is alignment with the cartridge guide slots. As the lifter lifts the cartridge the actual rim must enter those slots. Ususally there is ample room in the slots to permit adjustment to the stop face.
Are you already already loading your 45 Colt cartridges with 300 grainers (or near that weight) at near max pressure. I hunt river bottoms where my revolver shots would be under 40 yards and have no need for more power. But if you hunt open fields I can understand the desire for that extra horsepower across the asparagus fields. I grew up in the Riverside area (SW near Benton Harbor) and can see those corn crunchers strolling through Broderick's apple orchards out of range of my recurve.
Mike in Peru

[Doc Highwall]

Will the 92 be able to take the 60,000 CUP pressures that the 454 Casull generates?

[hp246]

Yeah, I'm hunting open fields in Washtenaw County. Pretty sure the 92 will handle the pressures as they actually manufacture it in .454 Casull. But I already have a spare, and thought the re-chamber would be cheaper than going out and buying a new gun. Will discuss with my gunsmith though.

[pietro]

Yeah, I'm hunting open fields in Washtenaw County. Pretty sure the 92 will handle the pressures as they actually manufacture it in .454 Casull. But I already have a spare, and thought the re-chamber would be cheaper than going out and buying a new gun. Will discuss with my gunsmith though.


FYI, the Rossi .45 Colt M92's and the .454 Casull M92's are different.

* The .454 receivers have special hardening, over the ones designated as .45 Colts.

* The .454 magazine tubes are threaded into the receiver front walls to avoid the well-know issue of the magazine tubes moving forward under recoil, that plagued the early .454's M92's.


The bottom line is that if a .45 Colt M92 is simply rechambered to .454, it could end up being a single-shot rifle with a tendency to come apart (besides the magazine) when shot.



.

[hp246]

FYI, the Rossi .45 Colt M92's and the .454 Casull M92's are different.

* The .454 receivers have special hardening, over the ones designated as .45 Colts.

* The .454 magazine tubes are threaded into the receiver front walls to avoid the well-know issue of the magazine tubes moving forward under recoil, that plagued the early .454's M92's.


The bottom line is that if a .45 Colt M92 is simply rechambered to .454, it could end up being a single-shot rifle with a tendency to come apart (besides the magazine) when shot.



.
Thanks. This is the type of information I was looking for.

[JohnnyFlake]

I have a Rossi 92 in .454 Casull. The .45 Colt and the .454 Cassull are two different guns. The .454 has an especially hardened receiver. Also the loading tube is larger and longer than the .45 Colt loading tube. There is also a difference in the way it is mounted to the gun, that will keep it mounted, because of the extreme difference in recoil between the rounds. I was told that there is also a difference in the mechanics of the lever system that allows for the slightly longer .454 case.

If you want to go .454, buy a new one and sell off your .45 Colt and the .454 easily handles .45 Colt with no issues!

[hp246]

I have a Rossi 92 in .454 Casull. The .45 Colt and the .454 Cassull are two different guns. The .454 has an especially hardened receiver. Also the loading tube is larger and longer than the .45 Colt loading tube. There is also a difference in the way it is mounted to the gun, that will keep it mounted, because of the extreme difference in recoil between the rounds. I was told that there is also a difference in the mechanics of the lever system that allows for the slightly longer .454 case.

If you want to go .454, buy a new one and sell off your .45 Colt and the .454 easily handles .45 Colt with no issues!

Yep. Sounds like a good idea after reading the responses here.

[BCRider]

What's wrong with loading full SAMMI spec .45Colt for your close in hunting? There are a number of powder options that keep you under the max pressure yet still let you push a 250gn boolit to the mid 900's.

I "plink" with lead boolits from my .44Mag that fly at the higher 900's to low 1000 range. And someone pointed out to me that my "plinking" loads will still bore a hole front to back through a horse. So I can't see any issue with shooting deer at reasonable distances with full pop .45Colt loads.

There's also the option of moving up a hair into what would be considered +P loads and having a 250gn slug moving at an honest 1000 fps. And that should punch clean through any deer like object you find.

I would hesitate to move up to the full pull "Ruger, TC and Freedom Arms" loads though. The STARTING pressure for those is double what most of the full power loads are for .45Colt.

[DougGuy]

Loading the 300gr RF boolits, you can load them long enough to equal the case volume of the .454 and as mentioned earlier, your rifle doesn't have the special construction of the .454 rifle but you could certainly take full advantage of the 30,000psi Ruger Only loads in the loading books, and could probably develop your own load that is closer to .44 magnum pressures of 36,000psi, the rifle will sure handle that, as will your brass if it's decent.

Were it me, I would sneak in a little closer and let the Ruger Only loads in .45 Colt take 'em down. :bigsmyl2:

[hp246]

I can already do that close range under 50 yard stuff with a shotgun. no real advantage to loading the the limit of the .45. If I could drive a boolit close to 2000 fps out of a 20 inch barrel, that would be a different story.

[BCRider]

I guess it comes down to which you'd rather carry around in the woods. Weight size and all.

At 2000 fps or even close to that you'd also be looking at passing the limits of cast boolits. A gas check might fix that. But even at a 1000 to 1100 fps or there abouts you've still got a great 100 and a bit yard gun. Is that not enough?

I sort of get the idea that the whole point of big lumpy "straight wall" cartridges and shot slugs is to reduce the effective range in what is apparently fairly crowded areas. I gather that they want to use the poor BC's of the handgun caliber bullets and shot slugs to aid in dropping them down into the dirt by the time they reach 200 yards from a more or less level shot. Or am I giving them more credit than they deserve?

[Mohillbilly]

Back when I got my then new FA 83 7 1/2 454 Casull it was said ( I don't remember where ) that at one hundred yrds. that it had more power than a .30-06 had at the muzzle . In my opinion if your going to shoot 200 yrds . get yourself an 06 . I have a new Rossi 16" stainless in .454 Casull but my loads for that will be ruger loads only as that is what I shoot in my FA . I see no need for grizzly bear loads in the lower 48 . When I'm up there I can use my box of FA brand 260 gr .heavy jacket , hard lead soft point in either . I will not be shooting at grizzly at 200 yrds. out of season . We dont have any loose bears like that here in Missouri nor any pachyderm . Save your money and get a rifle that will shoot 600 yrds instead . OR get some of those Leverloution bullets .

[hp246]

Back when I got my then new FA 83 7 1/2 454 Casull it was said ( I don't remember where ) that at one hundred yrds. that it had more power than a .30-06 had at the muzzle . In my opinion if your going to shoot 200 yrds . get yourself an 06 . I have a new Rossi 16" stainless in .454 Casull but my loads for that will be ruger loads only as that is what I shoot in my FA . I see no need for grizzly bear loads in the lower 48 . When I'm up there I can use my box of FA brand 260 gr .heavy jacket , hard lead soft point in either . I will not be shooting at grizzly at 200 yrds. out of season . We dont have any loose bears like that here in Missouri nor any pachyderm . Save your money and get a rifle that will shoot 600 yrds instead . OR get some of those Leverloution bullets . My normal deer gun is an Ultimate Muzzle Loader. Custom built Howa action, Walther barrel. They advertised kills out to 700 yards. 300 grn bullet over 200 grns of pyrodex. Longest kill to date with it is 180 yards. Hunting farm country where a 30-06 isn't an option. Am interested in something for 100 yards or so. Used to hunt with a .44 mag. in a Ruger Super Blackhawk. Was not impressed with it on deer. Now that we can use the pistol cartridges in rifles, thought the .454 might be the ticket.

[DougGuy]

Used to hunt with a .44 mag. in a Ruger Super Blackhawk. Was not impressed with it on deer.

You must have gotten a bad one, I have killed more deer with my 7 1/2" SBH than ALL of my other firearms combined! Never had one get away from it!

[btroj]

A healthy load in a 45 Colt will do much of what a 454 will do.

[pjames32]

A 45-70 will do everything a 454 will do and might be easier to load reliably.
PJ

[hp246]

.45-70 is too long. Thought it might be a cool project. From the advice above, I figure I'm better off just adding one to my stable. maybe working a trade if I can shoot .45 Colt in it, as it is my backup CAS rifle.

[Ed Barrett]

.45-70 is too long. Thought it might be a cool project. From the advice above, I figure I'm better off just adding one to my stable. maybe working a trade if I can shoot .45 Colt in it, as it is my backup CAS rifle.

Buy some 45 basic cases and cut them back to your states legal length and shoot them in a 45-70.

[frnkeore]

I would like to know what they have done to get the Casull COAL. I don't want to rechamber but, would like to be able to get my 335 gr (340 Lee mold) length bullet to feed, that what I use in my NM BH and my Redhawk.

Frank

[frnkeore]

I'll bump this back to the top.

I'd still like to know what it would take to just be able to load 45 Colt cartridges with the loaded overall lenght of the 454 Casull. I think that is about 1.8 long.

Frank

[pietro]

.

I'm thinking that the boolit would have to be seated so far out that the round(s) won't feed through a .45 Colt Model 92.



.

[frnkeore]

This regards the Rossi 92 and that rifle is chambered in 454 Casull so, the lifter and or other things has been modified for that use.

Frank

[TXGunNut]

I would like to know what they have done to get the Casull COAL. I don't want to rechamber but, would like to be able to get my 335 gr (340 Lee mold) length bullet to feed, that what I use in my NM BH and my Redhawk.

Frank

So the round you want will chamber in your rifle, just won't feed? I don't know the answer if that's the case but I see the need for a shameless bump.

[DougGuy]

These are only 1.650" and they are seated to the bottom crimp groove, probably too long to feed in an unmodified 92.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg.html)

[Pb2au]

These are only 1.650" and they are seated to the bottom crimp groove, probably too long to feed in an unmodified 92.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg.html)

I have a loading exactly like that for my Rossi. It juuuuuuuuuuuust makes it. If you don't cyle the action with authority, it can hang up.
it is a rather stout combo. I use 2400 powder with that boolit and I feel confident if a dinosaur tries to eat me, I can put it down with that.

[frnkeore]

I guess, a basic thing that I would like to know is, what is the difference between the 45 Colt lifter and the 454 Casull lifter. That would be a good start.

These things are a real pain to take down so, I doubt that anyone with a 454 would be willing to pull his lifter and take a good close up pic with a scale next to it.

Frank

[donhuff]

Frank,
The 454 carrier (lifter) has a slanted (toward the bottom) tip on it, because the mag tube hole is lower in the receiver. This is because of the screw in mag tube's larger OD where the threaded section is, and because of the doubled inner and outer mag tube set up. They had to do this to keep the mag tube threads from getting into the barrel threads.
Also, the carrier cartridge stop (the little tit that sticks up to stop the cartridge) is a 10th of an inch or more, further to the rear to allow for the casulls longer loaded length.

Then because of that extra length of the carrier, the "lever" has an extra cut in it so that it will clear the carrier and case rim.

Also, the cartridge guides are special for the 454 because the rim is now farther back during the cycle when compared to the 45C.

don huff

[frnkeore]

Thank you, very much, Don. That is what I was looking for but, it sounds like it would take to much "fiddling" to get it to work. Plus, I hate taking that rifle a part.

Thanks again,

Frank

[donhuff]

Yes, it would take a lot of fiddling. And when you got through, would the deer really care?

If I wanted a 454, I'd buy a 454!..........................I have both a 454 and 45C, and feel perfectly happy 99% of the time with the 45 colt.

[BAGTIC]

Does anyone know if the M92 Rossi (modern manufacture) are considered safe with 45 Colt +P loads? I use them in my Winchester M4 trapper and it has all the recoil I want in these light weight carbines with those stocks. The 300 grain +P load will just about duplicate the current factory 300 grain 45-70 loads.

[BAGTIC]

Does anyone know if the M92 Rossi (modern manufacture) are considered safe with 45 Colt +P loads? I use them in my Winchester M4 trapper and it has all the recoil I want in these light weight carbines with those stocks. The 300 grain +P load will just about duplicate the current factory 300 grain 45-70 loads.

[jmort]

Yes. +P

Back to guns.....the 45 long Colt in a strong 1892 action...made of modern steel will contain the same pressures that the Winchester Big Bore action will contain and even a bit more....50,000 cup..easily. (My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted on www.gunblast.com (http://www.gunblast.com/)(My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted onwww.gunblast.com (http://www.gunblast.com/) But I still feel that it is not designed in a way that it will take a long sustained use of the full pressure of the 454 loads at 60,000+ lbs. So don’t go there with even a modern Rossi, Browning, or Winchester 92. I have tested the new Legacy(Rossi) Puma in 454....there are changes in the little carbine, good changes...the most noticeable is what they have done to try and keep the loading tube from shearing the muzzle holding screw...and the change in how you load....much like lever 22RFs. I still think they are going to have problems...I hope not...it is a small packable rifle, that gives the bottom end power of a heavy loaded 45-70.
If Legacy truly has a 92 action that will take 454 full pressures over a sustained high number of rounds fired...like 10,000 of them...then they have made some changes to the steel and the design we don’t know about...in my tests now over one thousand heavy pressure commercial and in handloads, the 454 Legacy has performed wonderfully. I actually thought with full loads it wouldn’t sustain even that. But I’m now glad I can say I was wrong.!
Something has changed..I know a very late model, carbon steel built Browning/Winchester 92, will not take more than a few hundred rounds of 454 pressures before it gets a beginning case of bolt set back. My 1990s 45 Colt Rossi model ‘92 with 24 inch octagon barrel also didn’t do well at the 60,000 lb. Level of pressure. One Winchester was so bad, the mortises on the bolt itself had to be peened back in place, and the steel bolt blocks had to be given Mig Weld lines up the front of them, and ground and refitted to regain action tightness. In our case, I was reloading 45 long Colt cases to 60,000+cup. When a modern Rossi...a Christmas present from my children and wife three years ago, is loaded to a top end of 50,000 cup....no damage has occurred after thousands of rounds.

So where are we.....? Modern 92s, factory chambered in 45 long Colt can take 50,000+ cup loads. But I wouldn’t trust custom rebuilt old 92 actions in 45 long Colt to be able to sustain those top pressures, unless I knew the date of the action, and it was at the very least well after the 1930s. Also I have found that some of the heavy loads I use daily in my Ruger S/As in long Colt, are too warm for the early 1980s Winchester 94 actions in 45 long Colt. I have blown extractors, loosened ejectors, on them. Now that is my warm loads in the Rugers. Most folks don’t load that high...and I can understand that.



http://leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[Clark]

I have a trapper Winchester 94 in 45 Colt with 16.25" barrel, that with 24 gr H110 and 250 gr HNDY XTP HP will do 1536 fps 3 moa ~ 22kpsi

But the 6 pound trapper 45 Colt kicks worse than my 10 pound 338 Win Mag BAR at 250 gr 2600 fps.
They both get the largest grind to fit Limbsaver recoil pad with no grinding.

What does it all mean?
Be careful what you ask for in a light weight 45 Colt rifle.

[Edster]

I run a Ranch Dog TLC-454-290-RF and I load damn close to RD's load notes using Lil Gun. Getting pretty consistent 1700fps and then some. I wouldn't want much more thump to my shoulder than that right there puts out.

[bigdog454]

keep your 45 colt and go to something i.e. a 255 gr bullet. You can push that bullet to 1400fps in a revolver add a 20 inch rifle barrel and you get 1600-1700 fps. I've killed a number of deer with a 250ish gr bullet in a 45 cal hand gun.
BD

[rbertalotto]

I have a Rossi in 454 and I'm here to tell ya, shooting that thing with 300g Casull loads will really ring your bell!

I hunt with a custom Take-Down Taurus 92 in 45LC. I use cut-down 454 brass with the small primer pocket and load hard cast 250g gas checks to 44Magnum pressure levels (well under 454 pressure levels). This combination will take down anything except big bears at iron sight, lever action range.

http://images59.fotki.com/v255/photos/2/36012/9975203/DSC_3252-vi.jpg

http://images43.fotki.com/v60/photos/2/36012/9975203/DSC_3406-vi.jpg

Article about this build here:
http://rvbprecision.com/shooting/rossi-1892-winchester-take-down-conversion.html