Pennies as jackets

[xman777]

I know of a few times this has been discussed. They usually result in someone blindly paraphrasing the law about destruction of currency. Thanks in advance on whether you have advice about this, but it won't be needed here.

Now that's out of the way, why aren't people doing this? I'd imagine that making dies for this is not impossible, and the operating cost would be extremely low once being able to realize .01 bullet jackets. If you're going to spend 5-25 cents on a jacket anyways, why not just destroy a perfectly good penny and put it to use in another fashion? I'd prefer to think of it as "upcycling"

[obssd1958]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't pennies currently made out of Zinc? and jackets out of copper?
Not bustin' your chops, just confused.

[Magana559]

Yup they zinc now

[xman777]

Pre 82's which I have a metric ton of are almost entirely copper. My grandmother hoarded them... along with plenty of junk silver :) I'm just the lucky recipient.

[bdicki]

I know of a few times this has been discussed. They usually result in someone blindly paraphrasing the law about destruction of currency. Thanks in advance on whether you have advice about this, but it won't be needed here.

I destroyed a few pennies at Disney turning them into Mickey mouse. Disney wouldn't do anything illegal.

[bangerjim]

Right.........now ones are Zn. And hard!

Back in the "goode olde daze", we could rely on pennies for pure Cu, nickels for a source of Ni, dimes, quarters, and halves for a source of almost pure Ag. Can't make inlays or jewelry out of that carp today!

Today it is all garbage.......plated, sandwiched, alloyed.............garbage.


banger

[anotherred]

If you got true copper pennies, resell them and use the money for jackets.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

1909-1982 Pennies are 95% copper and 5% zinc.
http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1909-1982-Lincoln-Cent-Penny-Value.html

[bangerjim]

All minted coinage has always had a small amount of "hardening" alloy added to promote long-term wear resistance. The the old silver coins are not pure but are slightly hardened. Even gold coins are not pure. Only those certified "bullion" coins are pure Au. And all those silver bullion coins on TV are .999 pure Ag. Silver dollars are not pure.

But we used to treat them as a pure source of silver and gold.

banger

[williamwaco]

If you got true copper pennies, resell them and use the money for jackets.

I expect those pennies are worth more than jackets.

They are worth WAY more than a few cents each.

PS:

If you want to do it, it is NOT illegal

18 U.S. Code § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coinsWhoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

[WallyM3]

"
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

How do you "utter" a coin?

[GRUMPA]

"How do you "utter" a coin?

By taking it out of the "utter" pocket.

[bangerjim]

That utter coin is the change in Barry's "Hype & Change" he promised all those under-informed voters.......... 2X!

[WallyM3]

I knew there had to be comprehensible answers.

[wills]

"


Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

How do you "utter" a coin?
http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?typed=utter&type=1

[WallyM3]

Ah, a coin is a "document".

Lawyers will do anything to be wordy.

[clodhopper]

The more pre 82 pennies turned into jackets, the more value those un altered will have.
I wonder how uniform the resulting jacket would be. Lincon's head going up one side his chest going up the other side.
What caliber of bullets are you thinking of?

[rsrocket1]

How do you "utter" a coin?

By milking it, just like milking the "victim" card. It is worth a penny.

BTW, a zinc penny makes a great washer and costs less. Not that I would ever do such a thing.

[MOcaster]

1909-1982 Pennies are 95% copper and 5% zinc.
http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1909-1982-Lincoln-Cent-Penny-Value.html

Isn't that the same composition as gilding metal?

[PbHurler]

Isn't that the same composition as gilding metal?

Sho' nuff

Not sure of the temper though, I guess you could anneal if need be.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Isn't that the same composition as gilding metal?
Yeah, it seems to be. I wasn't disqualifying the metal as jacket material, I was just stating the actual composition in case anyone reading this was confused by the terminolgy "true copper" and "Pure Cu"

[theperfessor]

How much does a penny weigh? How much does a bullet jacket weigh? How much waste would there be? Just curious.

[Avery Arms]

I expect those pennies are worth more than jackets.

They are worth WAY more than a few cents each.

PS:

If you want to do it, it is NOT illegal...

Scrapping/melting pennies and nickels was outlawed a few years ago under a different law than the old "alter with intent" law you posted. I don't know the exact words of the new law or if it could be applied to smashing them into jackets for hobby purposes.

Also post-wheat copper pennies are not worth "way more than a few cents each" and are in fact nearly worthless. There are tons still in circulation and the people retailing them on ebay are only getting about 1.5 cents each shipped which means they are only pocketing about $25 on each $100 face value of pennies.

Anyway I don't see it as being a practical plan, too much extra labor trying to get them from pennies into jackets and by the time you buy all the required tooling you could probably buy a lifetime supply of jacketed bullets.

[FLHTC]

"
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

How do you "utter" a coin?

Hundreds of amusement parks, costal resorts and tourist attractions across the US have those hand cranked novelty creators, in which a penny is roll marked with a logo, scene or character for a small price and is ultimately destroyed in the process. Hundreds of written laws are more for the fear factor but are rarely enforced.

[WallyM3]

Sounds like the pennies would need to be annealed and mill rolled to thickness.

[FLHTC]

Sounds like the pennies would need to be annealed and mill rolled to thickness.

If you're referring to my post, they don't. You simply place them in the machine and watch them being rolled through the dies and they fall out when complete. Nothing more than an over-engineered gum ball machine

[WallyM3]

Didn't know that (though I was speaking generally). I should have known that it'd been well worked.

For bullets, I mean.

[williamwaco]

How much does a penny weigh? How much does a bullet jacket weigh? How much waste would there be? Just curious.

I wondered about that too but what I really want to know is how much would it cost to produce dies to draw the disc into a jacket?

I am reasonably sure it would not be done on a reloading press?

I am thinking your could buy a lifetime supply of commercial jackets for what the dies would cost.

[triggerhappy243]

all these years i have been running to the hardware store for 2 or 3 washers and I could have made them my self? oh the humility of it all.

[WallyM3]

Oh, the howwah!

[DukeInFlorida]

I recall my daughter doing a science project at school.

They took a file, and made an ever so slight nick in the edge of some pennies, to expose the zinc.

They placed them in a container with some kind of acid, and allowed the acid to quickly dissolve the zinc (creates hydrogen bubbles in the process).

She came home with some, and offered to show me how strong her fingers were. In amazement, I saw her bend a penny in half with the tips of her thumb and index finger. What she actually bent in half was the extremely thin shell of the former penny.

Pennies, either the new zinc ones, or the older solid copper ones, are NOT of any use in the making of a jacket for a bullet.

[MOcaster]

I recall my daughter doing a science project at school.

They took a file, and made an ever so slight nick in the edge of some pennies, to expose the zinc.

They placed them in a container with some kind of acid, and allowed the acid to quickly dissolve the zinc (creates hydrogen bubbles in the process).

She came home with some, and offered to show me how strong her fingers were. In amazement, I saw her bend a penny in half with the tips of her thumb and index finger. What she actually bent in half was the extremely thin shell of the former penny.

Pennies, either the new zinc ones, or the older solid copper ones, are NOT of any use in the making of a jacket for a bullet.

Kind of related, but not really, you can also make a battery out of the newer pennies. Mine worked pretty well and for quite a while.
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Turn-Spare-Pocket-Change-into-DIY-Batteries/

[oldred]

Probably off topic but a funny thing happened to me at work 5 or 6 years ago, a co-worker did not believe pennies are now made of Zinc so to prove it to him I reached into my pocket and retrieved a penny to scrape the plating off of and when I checked it to see if it was post '82 I was shocked (and delighted!) to see that I was holding a 1904 Indian head penny! This thing was in great condition and I had to have gotten it in change, it would be interesting to know how it got back in circulation and how many times it changed hands without being noticed before I found it. I know it's not worth much but that's probably the only time I have ever taken a penny out of my pocket to show someone and of all times it turned out to be, while not exactly a "rare" coin as far as collectible, an extremely rare coin to receive unknowingly as change.

[goblism]

I recall my daughter doing a science project at school.

They took a file, and made an ever so slight nick in the edge of some pennies, to expose the zinc.

They placed them in a container with some kind of acid, and allowed the acid to quickly dissolve the zinc (creates hydrogen bubbles in the process).

She came home with some, and offered to show me how strong her fingers were. In amazement, I saw her bend a penny in half with the tips of her thumb and index finger. What she actually bent in half was the extremely thin shell of the former penny.


Pennies, either the new zinc ones, or the older solid copper ones, are NOT of any use in the making of a jacket for a bullet.
This is what i was thinking for a jacket material when i first saw the post, not sure of the thickness of the jacket but think it is copper
http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistryhowtoguide/ht/hollowpennies.htm


(http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistryhowtoguide/ht/hollowpennies.htm)Makes me wonder if the two halves could be used as 2 gas checks?

[Cane_man]

any updates on this? I like projects like this...

could you make a die and push the penny through it to cup it, and then go from there? I'm think for 30 cal or 7mm

[dilly]

I'd be interested to see what you guys can do as well.

[Cane_man]

I assume you would have to run the penny through a roller mill first to get it in the 0.02" thickness range first... a small jeweler's roller mill like this could do the job:

http://www.t4j.co.uk/images/categories/rolling%20mill%20pic.JPG

I think pennies are approximately 0.08" thick so this would reduce the thickness by 4, not sure how many passes through the mill that would require

[xman777]

I've been playing with my jewelers mill like the one in the pic. I got it at a yard sale and that's what spawned this whole idea. The problem with the mill is that the penny comes out oval shaped, thereby making it useless as jacket material. I've tried changing the direction through the mill but once its stretched, its hard to get it to go back to being round.

[jimrk]

Using a rolling mill like above it would take 3 to 4 passes to get to around 0.030".
Then you would need to make it into a "blank".
124515
with a die and punch. Something like this.
124516124517

No magic here, this is like what you can find on the Corbin site for making jackets from copper strips.

Also from the Corbin site is what I made for the first cup. Blank sits on top of spring loaded 'head' and enters cupping die.
124518124519

Then you would need to make a few draws for the desired size.

124520

and finally after a trim and you could have a Jacket that is only good for plinking.

124521

Doable, yes. Practical, no.

[GoodOlBoy]

As individual coins the pre-82s are worth a few cents more than a penny each depending on condition and mint mark. IF you were to put together complete years, and or year spans (IE '82 S, D, and P mints) they become worth dollars a set to collectors trying to complete collections. IF you put together a decade span of all mint marks in min/nearly mint condition you are talking some decent money for a batch. By the way last time I sold coins on ebay I put up $25 worth of random pennies all pre-82 none prior to '72 (per my description) I wound up with a few guys getting in a bidding war and I received $98+ +S&H for $25 worth of pennies. Shortly after I put up several sets of Pre-72 none pre-40 guaranteed to have minimum of 3x 1943 steel pennies and possibly more in $25 face value random lots. These lots averaged $143 each (they got free shipping anytime it went over $100 aren't I generous?). So yes your pennies may be worth well more than other material to make jackets.

Also legalities aside (which I won't argue because it's been done to death, AND I wouldn't want to invalidate my Texas state park mangled pennies collection) the pennies themselves often have irregularities in the material besides having all those nice pressed faces, dates, monuments, etc in them. In the end you would wind up coming out ahead by selling the pennies on ebay, or if they are all near mint call little coin company and get the most bang for your buck, then buying thin walled copper pipe from the hardware store. Split the copper pipe and presto instant jacket material.

My 2 cents

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

Well since I had sold any lots in a couple of years I decided to check the fleaby pricing to see how close they were to what I was getting and honestly I am stunned at how low random lots are selling right now. I still think you could get more than they are worth as jacket materials, but I won't be posting any more lots for sale myself anytime soon as the prices currently suck for them.

Enjoy

GoodOlBoy

[Cane_man]

I've been playing with my jewelers mill like the one in the pic. I got it at a yard sale and that's what spawned this whole idea. The problem with the mill is that the penny comes out oval shaped, thereby making it useless as jacket material. I've tried changing the direction through the mill but once its stretched, its hard to get it to go back to being round.

do you anneal it before each pass? after the first pass it gets work hardened, if you flame it to cherry red and then quench it will soften the material and I bet it would be more circular after the second roll

[Cane_man]

Using a rolling mill like above it would take 3 to 4 passes to get to around 0.030".
Then you would need to make it into a "blank".
124515
with a die and punch. Something like this.
124516124517

No magic here, this is like what you can find on the Corbin site for making jackets from copper strips.

Also from the Corbin site is what I made for the first cup. Blank sits on top of spring loaded 'head' and enters cupping die.
124518124519

Then you would need to make a few draws for the desired size.

124520

and finally after a trim and you could have a Jacket that is only good for plinking.

124521

Doable, yes. Practical, no.

but look how much fun you had doing this!!! that's what im talkin bout :)

[dilly]

Using a rolling mill like above it would take 3 to 4 passes to get to around 0.030".
Then you would need to make it into a "blank".

with a die and punch. Something like this.


No magic here, this is like what you can find on the Corbin site for making jackets from copper strips.

Also from the Corbin site is what I made for the first cup. Blank sits on top of spring loaded 'head' and enters cupping die.


Then you would need to make a few draws for the desired size.



and finally after a trim and you could have a Jacket that is only good for plinking.



Doable, yes. Practical, no.

Thanks, this satisfies my curiosity and was a good learning experience. Your pictures were helpful too.

[Garyshome]

Just go and steel someones coppper downspouts and use them.

[Shooter6br]

Isnt it a federal law about destroying U.S coins? Just saying

[R.Ph. 380]

:popcorn:

[too many things]

put them on a train track much faster

[xman777]

Again with the federal law shenanigans. If you read the OP you'd have had nothing to say I bet.
Anyways, thanks for the awesome pics and tutorial. This is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Awesome stuff here on the CB forums.

[xman777]

put them on a train track much faster

FEMA train in my back yard lol.

[Cane_man]

and finally after a trim and you could have a Jacket that is only good for plinking.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124521&d=1418669114&thumb=1

Doable, yes. Practical, no.

Just curious how you trimmed the jacket?

I agree this is not very practical, and using 9mm cases is not nearly as involved as I have drawn them down from 0.390 to 7mm... but I might do it anyway just for fun and mess around with these pennies... I can make the cupping dies, I would just be out $200 for the rolling mill, but it would be nice to have one in the shop anyway... maybe a project this spring or summer

[jimrk]

I have a Trim die setup from RCE. Richard had it 'in stock' and I could not see all the details from the pic so I bought it. It does a draw that leaves a flare that is then pinched off. Two step but works well.

[Cane_man]

a pinch trim die?

[Garyshome]

I just herd it costs $.017 cents to make a penny!

[Cane_man]

considering the federal government, that makes perfect sense!

[Rio Grande]

They used to make a lead bullet with a zinc "washer" base. It was said bore leading was reduced to zero, and no lube necessary.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/147390-harvey-prot-x-bore-zinc-base-bullets-lakeville-arms.html

http://www.hawkbullets.com/Prot-X-Bore.htm

I see no reason why a zinc penny turned to proper diameter could not be used for this application.

[Steven Dzupin]

A truly "Penny wise -Pound Foolish" Post ! :-)

Regards,

Steve

[257]

I would wonder about the uneven thickness and how much pressure it would take to truly flatten them out.

[25/303]

I cannot see why you would have to roll them in the first stage. After watching other videos and reading about making jacket dies it appears that you could just start the first stage with a fresh coin and draw from there. The engraving will be smoothed with each step and annealing. Maybe you will have a thicker jacket and need to change the lead weight of make the jacket/bullet longer to keep the same weight as a commercial jacket/bullet. Jackets here are now about 23-30cents ea. "pennys" are 1c each. And are out of circulation.