The Muzzleloading Shotgun, by V.M. Starr

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The Muzzle Loading Shotgun

It's Care and Use

By


V. M. Starr
The Muzzle Gunsmith
Eden, S. Dak.

FORWARD
This book is written in the hopes that it will be the means by which many good fellows may be lead into the clan of the front feeders and to the joys thereof and by making the knowledge that I have been able to gather in the past 50 years experience with muzzle loading shotguns available to as many as possible to help get them started off on the right path without having to learn the hard way with little or no outside help.

I have tried to set forth in the foollowing pages all the things that the beginner needs to know to successfully use and care for a Muzzle loading shotgun...how well I have succeeded I will leave up to those of you who take the time to read and digest their contents.

I hereby dedicate this book to those hardy souls who have given so much of their time, effort and substance to the cause of the charcoal burners and to my many friends and customers who have made serving you such a pleasure these many years. May you all live long and prosper.

More power to your powder and may your tribe increase.

Yours sincerely,
V. M. STARR


THE MUZZLE LOADING SHOTGUN
During the past years since the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association has been doing such a good job of reviving the use of the old front feeders there has been a great flood of information on the care and use of muzzle loading rifles and pistols but not much on old Meat in the pot that old stand by of both fur and feathers the Muzzle Loading shot gun.

Much of the meat that went to tighten the belts of the old boys and their families from about 1840 through 1880 and even much later got there with the help of that old cap lock front feed scatter gun.

Now through the efforts of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association and the high cost of ready made fodder and just for the great thrill that we get from their use a whole lot of us are turning back to the guns that served our forebearers so well, and are finding that Grandpappy really had more than most present day shooters gave him credit for. Especially after someone with the know how and a heart for the old guns has put them back in good shooting order and has choked the barrels to shoot the proper patterns for the work at hand.

No matter if you want to bust a bunny or a quail in the brush or reach up into the top of that tall hickory in the bottom after a bushy tail or reach out after a high duck or a smart old crow the old gun can be choked to do the job and do it well at a cost far below the cost of modern fodder, and besides it is a lot more fun that way.

I was infected with black powder virus at a tender age and it must have been a heavy dose because I have never shown the slightest sign of recovery and me with more than three score years behind me.

I well remember the first muzzle loading shot gun that was really mine. I must have been about 12 years old when I talked one of my cousins into parting with a 14 ga. Belgian double M-L shot gun for the princely sum of $1.25. It was no beauty from any angle and was completely innocent of finish on either wood or metal but she was sound and solid and everything worked, and of course it was without a sign of choke and like most likely shot lousy patterns, but who cared? It shot, didn't it, and it made a delicious report and a fine cloud of smoke and things died that I shot at with great regularity and if it kicked I never knew it. What more could a boy want or need?

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Ammo was cheap and plentiful and even my feeble budget could be stretched over a lot of shooting. I had a good single barrel Daventort and was allowed to use Dad's fine Ithica double but they sat in the chimney corner gathering dust while the old Belgian and I did our best to keep meat in the pot in season and many a cotton tail quail, woodcock, ducks and doves found their way to the table as a result of our combined efforts.

All that took place nearly 50 years ago and many guns have come and gone since that time but my breech loaders are still gathering dust in the gun rack most of the time while I do my hunting wiht Sue Betsy a 11 bore Wm. Moore that I have used to hunt most all shotgun game with for the last 20 years.

I have choked the old gun to shoot 80 per cent patterns in either barrel to reach up after passing ducks, wide flushing pheasants and wise old crows that come to the call high where they think they are safe but seldom are.

Few men have had the priviledge to enjoy the fine shooting that has come my way in the past twenty years and Sue Betsy and I have really taken advantage of it and few were the times that the breech loaders were able to bring home a heavier bag than mine and never did they have as much fun.

Just to prove that a man with a good muzzle loader is not too badly handicapped, I will tell you about the six week crow shoot that the local gun club put on here in 1948. There were 100 guns in the contest divided up into two teams. I used M-L shot guns during the whole contest and when the shoot was over and the scores added up I had a score of 410 crows against 182 by the runner-up.

The following year when the contest was organized, Sue Betsy and I were barred--no one wanted to shoot against us. That gave me more satisfaction than winning the contest in the first place as I felt that no higher praise of the old guns ability could be offered than that.

That should be plenty about me, now let's talk about guns and their care.

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Most of the guns that are to be had in this country today were imported from England with Belgium running a close second. Most of the English guns were of good quality but some of the Belgian were pretty poor, but one good point with the Belgians, no one ever saw a pair of Belgian barrels come apart no matter how cheap the gun or how poorly made. I have never seen a pair of barrels bearing the Belgian proof mark that was not brazed together and the devil himself can't get them apart without heating them red hot.

All the barrels that bear the English proof marks that I ever saw were soldered together with soft solder and in the course of my work I have had to resolder many pairs of them.

I would say that most of the M-L shot guns made in this country used either English or Belgian barrels.

The best of the English guns were made by Wm. Greener, W.C. Scott & Sons, Purdy, Wesley Richards, The Manton Bros. John & Joe, and maybe some others that I have never heard of. There were also some good makers in Ireland, one of my shooting pals has an 8 ga. made in Belfast that any gun nut would be proud to own.

Wm. Moore made lots of M-L guns that were shipped to this country and I have yet to see a genuine Moore that had not at one time been a good one. Altho I have seen some very fine Moores, most of them that come to my shop are rather plain guns made to sell at a moderate price and give good service over a long period of time, which they surely have done. My Sue Betsy is such a gun and has seen 20 years of hard service since I have had it and how much before there is no way of telling. All that I have done in the way of repairs is to rebore the barrels and put in new nipples. I wxpect to use it as long as I need a gun and then pass it on to the next generation.

Another one of the good old work horse type was the Mortimers, all of them that I have seen so far have been well made and built for service. I used one, one afternoon on a crow shoot, it was a heavy 12 ga. I loaded with 4 drams Fg and 1 1/2-oz. No. 6 and it was sure bad news for the crows.

As a whole, all of the English guns were good serviceable guns and well made of good material, as also a lot of Belgians, except the very cheapest kind. You can tell if your gun is Belgian made by taking the barrels off and looking at the proof marks on the under-side of the barrels near the breech, the Belgian proof mark is an oval with the letters ELG inside the oval.

Most English guns have the words London Twist or London Fine Twist on the rib near the breech and almost without exception the barrels are soldered together.

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It is easy to tell how the barrels are put together by turning them bottom side up and running the point of a knife along one side of the bottom rib, if the scratch show yellow it is brazed and the gun is almost sure to be Belgian, if it showes brite like silver the chances are that it is English.

There comes along now and then a German made gun but not very often, seems that not too many of them were ever brought to this country, at least they don't show up in my shop in great numbers and those that do are usually rather showey pieces with cheek piece stocks and lots of fancy carving and shaped just right to give me a good sound smack right under the cheek bone.

I guess that the guys who used them either had no cheek bones or enjoyed a good swift kick in the puss every time they fired them. Outside of all the useless ginger bread and face busting stocks they were well made of good material.

Once in a blue moon a French gun will show up in the shop and a few of American make, but they are few and far between, but to date they have all been good ones.

In case you get bit by the black powder bug and decide you want a M-L shotgun, try and find one with sound stock and barrels of good weight that don't show too much abuse and mis-use, and of course it should have good locks or at least locks that can be repaired and if you can't do the job yourself be sure to take or send them to a man who knows about M-L locks because a gun is no better than its locks, especially from the standpoint of safety. Poor locks are a decided menace to shooters and spectators as well.

Chances are that unless you are one of the lucky ones that the bores will be rusty and pitted and will need some work. If you can get along with cylinder bore patterns all that will have to be done will be to give them a good cleaning with something to take out the rust and smooth them up a bit and they will shoot as well as ever. A piece of screen wire or a wad of coarse steel wool on a cleaning rod soaked in kerosene or your favorite brand of gun cleaner will get most of it out provided you supply enough elbow grease to go with it.

You can follow that with a hunk of emery paper on a stick and either turn it with a hand or power drill or just push it back and forth by hand, that will help a lot but of course will not do much for the pits. To remove the pits calls for a rebore job and that calls for an expert with special tools made for the job. The man who has the tools and the know-how can remove the breech plugs and remove all but the deepest pits and at the same time work in the right amount of choke to give you the patterns you need for the kind of shooting you will use the gun for. He will also polish the bores so that they load easy and clean easy and will not foul too bad.

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The same fellow will be the one to fix those locks so they will work their best and be safe to use.

If you feel that you just have to get those breech plugs out yourself, you will have to have some special equipment first; a pair of hard wood blocks shaped to fit the barrels at the breech and then a good stout machinist's vise to grip them in, then a piece of emery cloth to put between the blocks and the barrels, with the emery side to the barrels to keep them from turning, if one barrel turns a fraction against the other if they are soldered together you will have two single barrels instead of one double. Now lay one block down barrel side up and lay the emery cloth on it, lay the barrels bottom side down on the cloth then lay the other piece of emery cloth on top of the barrels and the other block on that.

If you are right handed pick up blocks and barrels with the breech on your right with the nipples pointing towards you and place the whole works in the strongest vise you can find and really tighten up on them, I put all of my 210 pounds onto the vise handle and really heave, because if one of those barrels turns a fraction of an inch against the other you will have a very nasty soldering job on your hands that will make you sweat and maybe swear as well. The next thing to do is to take out the nipple from the right barrel, if you have not already done so as it is not likely to clear the left breech plug when you try to turn it. Now you must either have a Starr patent bung starter or some other device that will take a firm hold on the lug on the breech plug and I mean FIRM and still be small enough to allow the right plug to turn and not jam against the other lug.

With my bung starter I am able to put all the turning pressure on the wrench that the lug will stand using my left arm only this leaves my right hand free to rap the end of the starter with a hammer, this not only keeps the starter full up on the lug but helps a lot to break the grip of the rust that has been undisturbed ever since Granpa touched her off the last time.

If that don't start something you can either twist off the lug or if you have some time to spare set the breech in kerosene or penetrating oul and let her set for a few days and try again, if it still don't come try a little heat but be careful or you will be in trouble with that solder again, but if the barrels are Belgian you can use more but never use more than just enough to loosen the rust. I heat a little and give her a try, if nothing gives I cool it off and heat ant try again and keep repeating the process until something gives, all the while hoping that it will be the plug and not the solder or the lug that lets go first.

If you have been luck enough to get the plugs out without busting something now you can look through and see just what kind of a mess you will have to deal with. I have found nearly every thing in the old guns except the kitchen sink. While we are talking about things in barrels be sure that it is not an old load that is in it before you put any heat on those plugs because black powder is still potent after being loaded for at least 50 years. In the last few years I have fired quite a few 45-70 cartridges that were loaded previous to the Spanish American War.

With a wad of steel wool on a cleaning rod you can scrub out most of the rust and powder residue and get some idea what the inside is like, a little penetrating oil or a good gun cleaner on the steel wool will help. If you want to a little more than that, get a wood dowel and cut a slot in the end with a hack saw an inch or two deep and take a piece of amuminum aloxite cloth an inch wide and put one end in the slot and wrap it around the end of the dowel so that it is big enough to fit tight in the bore, then put an electric drill or a brace or us any means at hand to turn it and push it back and forth in the bore and keep it soaked in kerosene or thread cutting oil, you can keep this up as long as your ambition lasts and while it will not remove pits it will do a lot to make the gun load easier and foul less, if you want any more done than that you better send it to someone who has the tools and know how to give you a real rebore job and give you the choke you need for your type of shooting.

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Now with the gun reassembled with new lnipples and the locks with good safety notches you are ready to start shooting. Unless the barrels have been badly breech burnt or otherwise badly damaged it should be safe for moderate or even heavy loads.

If your gun is a 10 bore and rather heavy you can use some good stout loads and if properly choked you can really reach out and bring down the high ones. In 10 bores that weigh as much as 10 pounds, I find that 5 drs. of Fg and 1 3/4-oz. shot either 4, 5 or 6 will do a good job on a duck pass where the shots are liable to be long and high, but it will take the average shooter quite a while to learn how to hold well enough to be able to kill ducks as far as the old gun will reach them. I once had a Belguin double that was extra stout and heavy, about 12 pounds, and had the right barrel choked to improved modified and the left to extra full and both shot very even and uniform patterns. I sold this gun to Tom Price of Aberdeen, S. D., which is near the great Sand Lake Wild Life Refuge where there is plenty of chance to use such a gun on both ducks and geese. Tom's favorite load was 6 dr. Fg and 1 1/2-oz. 6 for ducks and 4 for geese. It was the latter part of the second year that he used it before he was able to hold and judge lead well enough to take full advantage of the old gun's ability to go out and get them. Then he had great sport in bringing down birds with clean kills at ranges that left the boys with modern guns staring in open mouthed wonder.

In lighter 10 ga. guns a good load to use is 4 1/4 drs. Fg and 1 1/2 oz. shot of a suitable size for the job at hand. And you will also be agreeably surprised at how well a 10 ga. will do with even as little as 3 drs. Fg and 1 oz. shot, in fact every 10 ga. that I have ever rebored always shot light loads extremely well. I lay this to the fact that the small charges of shot in the larger bores have a much shorter shot column and this causes less crowding and less deforming in the choke and seems to give better patterns.

So if you have a good stout 10 ga. you can load it for most any kind of shooting that comes to hand, and if properly choked it will get the job done for you in good shape no matter if it be going way yonder after a smart old mallard or upsetting a cotton tail at close range in the brush.

As before mentioned my favorite shotgun is my old Sue Betsy, an 11 bore Wm. Moore that weighs about 9 pounds and full choke in both barrels, choked too close, in fact for most shooting but I just don't have the heart to monkey with those fine patterns that have served me so well for so long.

For heavy work on ducks I use 4 1/2 drs. Fg and 1 1/2-oz. 4, 5 or 6 shot. I like the No. 6 the best because they will kill ducks just as far as the pattern will hit them and are better than the heavier shot when it comes to killing cripples on the water and killing cripples is very important to every hunter that is worthy of the name. I only use No. 4 when there is a good chance that a goose will wander by and give me a chance at him or when I am out of smaller shot.

From that load for heavy work I load on down as low as 3 drs. and 1 oz. of shot, depending on the kind of game I'm after and I have killed a heap of cottontails and pheasants with the old gun with 2 1/2 drs. and 1 oz. of No. 7 1/2 shot.

For most any 12 ga. a load of 3 3/4 drs. of Fg and 1 1/4 oz. of shot will not be too heavy unless the gun is very light, and so loaded, a good 12 ga. properly choked will kill its game just as well as a modern 12 ga. with long range loads.

For lighter work, 3 1/4 drs. and 1 1/8 oz. shot will do very well and of course 3 drs. and 1 oz. will also do a nice job for lighter work like cottontails and quail or for just shooting around for fun.

For a 14 ga. 3 1/4 drs. either Fg or FFg and 1 1/8 oz. shot is about right, and of course, they will do all right with 3 drs. and 1 oz. and for light work 2 1/2 drs and 1 oz. will also give good results.

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I might as well go on record here as being against the use of FFFg in any shot gun larger than a 28 ga., and even in that FFg is better. My experience has taught me that FFFg is too wild for shot guns and by burning too fast runs pressures up too high and causes entirely too much abuse to both gun and shooter and will gain nothing whatever in the way of greater effectiveness, and will make the gun much more unpleasant to shoot and also has a decided tendency to blow up patterns. The old idea that is still hanging around in shooter's minds that when she kicks hard she shoots hard just ain't so. Any man shooting a gun with moderate loads that is pleasant to shoot will kill more game in a given number of shots than the same man with the same gun that is over loaded so that it is unpleasant to shoot.

For a 16 ga. 3 drs. either Fg or FFg and 1 1/8 oz. shot will be about all she can handle well and I like 3 drs. and 1 oz. better, 2 1/2 drs. and either 1 oz. or 7/8 oz. makes a fine load for light work or for the boy to start with.

For the 20 ga. a 2 1/4 drs. either Fg or FFg and 7/8 oz. is the thing, but if your gun is stout and heavy 2 3/4 drs. and 1 oz. is not too much but any more than that is just a waste of good ammunition and won't get you a thing except a bump on the snoot if you are not careful. Of course if the kids and the Mrs. want to play with it a 20 ga. will surprise you with what it will do with 2 drs. and 3/4 oz. of No. 7 1/2 shot.

I once made a 28 ga. single barrel for a 10 year old girl and we loaded it with 2 drs. of FFg and 3/4 oz. of No. 7 1/2 shot and found that it would do a nice job of work up to 30 yards or more, it gave good clean breaks on clay birds and she managed to kill 5 pheasant roosters with it the first season so I reckon that 2 dr. and 3/4 oz. is about the right dope for that size.

Now that I have told you what to load maybe it would be the right thing to tell you how to load it.

Assuming that your old gun has been checked over and found fit to shoot and the barrels are clean and free from surplus oil and grease and that the safety notches are good and deep and will not yield to any reasonable pressure we are ready to start to load.

For convenient loading you should have a powder flask with a measuring device on the top that will cut off the right charge of powder, and a shot pouch that has a measuring top to measure your shot charge.

After 50 years of practice this the way I go at it_I keep the powder flask under my coat tail in my left hand hip pocket where it rides easy and is not sticking out to catch on this and that and maybe pull out and get lost.

I put my shot pouch in my right hand hunting coat pocket along with the wads if there is only one pocket but if there is two pockets on that side, I put the wads in one and the shot pouch in the other. The caps I put loose in my right pants pocket after carefully cleaning it out so that nothing will interfere with picking one or two out in a hurry.

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I use only one kind of wads and those I cut from cardboard like display signs that are extra thick, about 3/32 is about right and use two of these on the powder and one on the shot. I have had several pretty wise gun men tell me that that is not enough wads before they saw the results but never have had one say a word further on the subject after they had seen one of my guns perform so loaded. You can put in more wads on the powder if you wish or if you enjoy cutting them but my experience tells me that you are just wasting your time and cardboard and in spite of the fact that shot gun shells have felt wads in them and always have had as far as I know I don't think they are at all necessary in a muzzle loader. Anyhow, if my guns shot any better I would not know what to do with the extra efficiency.

Now let's get one loaded. Pull both hammers to full cock and put a cap on each nipple and snap them and listen to the noise they make if they make a noise that is hollow inside the barrel you will know that the nipple is open and the fire went into the barrel where it is supposed to but if it goes off with a sharp crack on the outside only you know that the nipple is plugged. I like to point the gun at some small light object on the ground like a blade of grass and watch and see if the force of the cap will move it, then if I hear a hollow tonk inside the barrel and see the object move I know that the passage is open. It is not a bad idea to snap a couple of caps an each nipple and then blow through the barrels and watch the smoke come out of the niples. That gives you a good chance to see just how well the passage is cleaned out.

Now if you really want it to go off the first time and no fooling, pour about a half charge of powder in each barrel and bump the breech a couple of times on the ground to settle it and keeping the muzzle up put on a couple of caps and see if she shoots. If that goes off you may be quite sure that it will fire every time after that. If it don't, find out what is stopping up the passage and try again until it fires that loose powder because there is no use to load it if it ain't a-going to shoot.

Now set your hammers in the safety notches and take the gun by the muzzle and turn the hammers towards you and set the butt between your feet and grip the barrels between your knees hard enough to hold it in an upright position, this leaves both hands free to handle the gadgets. Reach around to your left hand hip pocket where I told you to put the powder flask, take out the flask and measure out a charge for each barrel and be sure that one goes in each barrel, they shoot better that way.

Now reach into that right hand coat pocket and get four of the cardboard wads that are supposed to be there and put two of them in each barrel and push them down to the powder then hit them just one good sharp rap with the ramrod to be sure they are seated firmly, but don't pound, pounding powder is a hang over from the days when Grandpa stole the old gun from the chimney corner and wadded her with hornet's nest or anything else that came to hand. Sure she shot but no one including Grandpa himself knew how well. Now grab that shot pouch and measure out a charge of shot and pour one down each barrel and be sure that there is one in each barrel or you will get one awful surprise when you touch off the one with the double load in it. You don't have to tell me I KNOW. Now do what I tell you and no fooling_pucker up and spit down each barrel after the shot charge before you put in the wads the spit will soften up the fouling from the former charge and the wad will act like a squeege and clean the barrel each time you load and you can shoot all day without fouling troubles as long as you spit each time.

Now put one cardboard wad in each barrel and push them down onto the shot as before and don't pound this time either or you will knock the shot all out of shape and they will fly every which way. Just hit the wad one sharp rap to seat it and let it alone. Next comes the caps. Shove your hand down into that right hand pants pocket and get two caps. You will be surprised to find how easy it is especially if you wear overalls like I do. Put one on each nipple and let each hammer down gently on each cap in turn and give it a little push with your thumb to seat the cap firmly on the nipple, set the hammers in the safety notches and you are ready to go. After you have fired one or both barrels make it a fixed habit to always put the hammers in the safety position as you take the gun down then there is small chance of accidental discharge. If you keep those hammers in the safety position there will be small chance that one barrel will go off while you are loading the other even if you forget to take the cap off the loaded barrel while you are loading the empty one. Of course the practice of taking the cap off the loaded barrel is the only way to be absolutely sure that it will not go off on you while you are loading the empty one and is a good rule to follow ALWAYS.

It is also good practice if it so happens that you fire one barrel several times without firing the other, to check with your ram rod and see if the shot wad is still tight in the unfired barrel, a half dozen shots or so will sometimes loosen the wad and let the shot roll out and spoil your shot right when you need it most. I have missed a few doubles on pheasants that way myself.

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If you are in doubt about how much powder and shot to use in an untried gun, if it is a 12 ga., a 45-70 case full of powder and the same full of shot will make a good load to start with. From that you can work either way 'till you get a load that suits you, always keeping the powder and shot equal by bulk and you won't go wrong as I have yet to see the M-L shot gun that won't shoot well so loaded if it will shoot at all. A 45-70 case holds about 3 drs. of powder when full to the top. In case you can't find a 45-70 case take a modern shell from a gun of the same gauge as your M-L and cut it off not more than 1 inch from the bottom, measuring on the outside and use that full for a starter and work up carefully a little at a time 'till you get a load that is satisfactory and keep in mind that a gun don't have to knock your hat off every time you shoot it in order to kill game. You will find that moderate loads are always the best.

Many people that come to my shop that should know better seem to think that because it is a muzzle loader the more you put in it the farther it will shoot. That certainly is not true of M-L guns or any other shot gun I ever saw. The plain facts are that any shotgun, either M-L or modern will handle just so much load efficiently and that is all. To put in any more than that is just kidding yourself, wasting powder and shot and busing yourself and your gun and playing right into the hands of the doctor or the undertaker. Don't Do It.

Now comes the hard part, if you want to use the old timers you will have to take care of them and that means cleaning. And cleaning means work, but I will try to tell you how to do it with as little trouble as possible.

If you are using your gun every day as I sometimes do in the fall all you have to do is take a cleaning rod and put a wad of fine steel wool on the end that will fill the bore just snug, not too tight and soak it in any good gun cleaner. I like and use Bedfords myself, and push it up and down the bore 'till it slides along sort of smooth like, you can feel when any caked spots are loosened up then just set it away 'till the next day and give it a wipe with a patch with a little more cleaner on it before you load and you are all set. But be sure to snap those caps on the nipples before loading to clear the passage to the barrel or you will have a load to pull.

That method will do very well for over night stands but when you are going to leave it longer or set it away for some time, then it is a different story.

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First take out the fore-end key and take the barrels off the stock and if you have a nipple wrench take out the nipples, then pour a little cold water through the barrels to soften the fouling and then get a bucket of hot water, set the barrels breech down in the bucket and with a tight patch on the cleaning rod pump the hot water back and forth through the barrels 'till the barrels are too hot to hold, then set them up muzzle down and let them dry of their own heat. If the patch don't seem to loosen the fouling fast enough to suit use a brass brissle brush instead, or the fine steel wool will do, but if your gun is choked don't scrub up close to the muzzle with the steel wool. It would take an awful lot of scrubbing to do you any damage but why take chances, the fouling will mostly be in the lower half of the gun anyhow.

After the barrels have dried of their own heat, give them a swab with a patch and a little gun cleaner on it and use the same patch to wipe off the outside. After cleaning the nipples in case you took them out, put them back and give both inside and outside of the barrels a swab with your favorit gun oil and you are all done with the barrels. Next take the stock and carefully wipe all fouling away around the locks and hammers and other hardware using the gun cleaner and follow up with the oil. That should keep both you and the old gun happy 'till you want to shoot it again.

Here is a list of the gadgets that the well equipped M-L nut should have to successfully run a M-L shotgun in the field. You should have a good powder flask with charger top. A shot pouch that will hold about 3 lbs. of shot and a charger top. A good nipple wrench and at least one extra nipple and a good wormer on the ramrod to pull the shot charge that you forget to put the powder behind. And don't kid yourself that it won't happen to you . I know better.

Another thing I like to have in the car at least, or in the boat when shooting ducks is a 5/8 dowel 3 feet long to use as an emergency ram rod. I learned that lesson the hard way when another muzzle gun nut and I were shooting ducks in the middle of a big slough a mile from the car here in South Dakota. There were plenty of ducks and we were going great when my friend was trying to push a shot wad down before a flock of ducks made it to our decoys. His cold fingers slipped on the rod and the compressed air behind the wad threw the ram rod at least 20 feet high and of course it came down in the slough in four feet of water and sunk like a rock.

Then all we could do was to both use mine. That went fine 'till a few shots later, I knelt down to hide from some ducks with the ramrod in my hand. You guessed it_I kneeled down on the rod and it just would not hold my 200 odd pounds of beef and the battle was over. It took us an hour and a half to find a stick that would do to load the old guns and the best of the flight was over. We got our limits after all but we had to take poorer ducks than those that were in the early flight. So now there is always a supply of dowels in both the car and the boat and I leave the ram rod in the gun and use a dowel when I am shooting either from a boat or a blind as we do when we hunt crows. You will find that a 5/8 hardwood dowel makes a handy gadget to have around a M-L shot gun. I use them in the shop for many uses, I keep them on hand in sizes from 1/4 to 3/4 and by turning a nob on one end they make a cleaning rod for most any size bore and by cutting a slot in the end to receive a piece of aluminum aloxite cloth they serve as polishing sticks for polishing bores and around the shop I use them as ramrods and use them for the same purpose at the muzzle trap shoots that I put on here and there about the country.

[Bret4207]

Thanks! I'm printing this one off. Good stuff!

[Howdydoit]

This is great stuff. As I want to get into ML shotgunning. V.M. Star this Really helped me decide. Now I just have to find a Shotgun. Are there any good kits out there that you would recommend? I dont think I could afford an original. :bigsmyl2:

[Gary Carter]

Don't know about current offerings, I have a Dixie Gunworks double 12 ga kit gun. going on 30 years old. Broke one mainspring and lost one screw, these are the only problems I have had with it.

[waksupi]

The Dixies are pretty good shotguns. If you are a water fowler, you can't go wrong with one of thier ten bores. A friend who did the testing for different shot alloy and compositions years back for the major ammo companies, claims the ten bore blackpowder shotgun is the most efficient of any shotgun you can shoot for game. I've had a couple of the Navy Arms doubles over the years, and wish I would have kept the first one. The old ones, had very nice English lines and fit. The later ones have been somewhat clubby. They are fun, and are a real kick in trap shooting.

[eka]

I have an original Parker 12 ga. double barrel muzzle loading shotgun that I have been trying to decide what to do with for some time. I don't think it is a Parker Bros. Makers, but a knock off on the name. The gun is from the 1880's probably. It is in pretty good shape. The locks work, but need a tune-up. The barrels are marked "Laminated Steel". The bores were rusty and pitted, but seem like they will clean up pretty well. I scratched the underside of the rib and the barrels are soldered together. The proof marks are not the Belgian oval, but not ones that I can make out to describe. Both barrels are stamped 14. I think the gun is probably of English descent. I remembered reading this post and after acquiring the shotgun, I re-read it. The gun I have seems to be exactly the kind of gun this article is referring to. An original shotgun around this era. However, several friends have warned against shooting the gun with "Damascus or Laminated" barrels. I took the gun to a gunsmith for an estimate on getting the gun back in top mechanical shape. He at first said he didn't think he would shoot the gun, but later said he thought it probably would be OK. Kinda left me scratching my head. I bought the gun with the intention of shooting it, but don't want to be hard headed about it if it's not safe to do so. If it is just a wall hanger, I will probably sell it as such, because I really don't have a need for a wall hanger. However, I don't want to act hastily and sell a gun that would be a perfectly good shooter either. I'm not discounting the advice I have been given, but this article seems to advocate shooting these old guns. The type of shooting I had in mind for this gun was light rabbit and squirrel loads. So, what do you guys think, your thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Keith

[waksupi]

Keith, I believe I would do a proof charge. Figure your max load, probably around 75 gr. 2f. Double this, and double the load of shot. Tie it to a tire, and use a long string to touch it off. If it doesn't blow, it is most likely OK to shoot. Sounds like a big load, but if you should mistakenly double charge at some time, this is what you would be dealing with.

[eka]

Thanks for the reply Rick. That was what the gunsmith and I were talking about. He said he thought if it was going to blow, it would be in the last third of the barrel. He said he wouldn't worry about the breech end very much. This guy is a seasoned smith that specializes in building custom muzzleloaders. I'd kinda hate to blow such a nice old piece of history, but I would also hate to blow off some of my body parts also.
I think I'll get the smith to tune it up and I'll polish the barrels as described in the above article, then give her a test run. When I finally touch her off, I'll report back.
Keith

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

Keith , Clean out the rust (tornado brush) proof it and shoot it, lots of fun to roll a rabbit with a "piece of history". I have a 12 and a14 ga., if your barrels are english the 14 on the bottom meens 14ga, measure to be sure. There are lots of odd gages around 11, 13 17, that i have owned. Replace the nipples with new ss, if the threads are a bit loose, oversize nipples are available.
Belgians marked their barrels with mm size, not sure about other european makers.
Check it and shoot it!!!! My .02 worth
Nick

[Old Ironsights]

Here's my ML Shotgun... I use either a .690 RB or a 12ga Lightfield slug...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_1908.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_1909.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_4558.jpg

It specializes in personal defense... :twisted:

[eka]

That is very cool Ironsights!

Nick,

I was thinking the fourteen may mean an odd guage, but I had never heard of a 14 guage. I will measure to make sure. The smith has already cleaned the threads up and replaced the nipples with stainless ones. I'm going to just go for it and proof this baby with the tire like Rick suggested. If that goes well, I'll put her back in shape mechanically and let the fun begin. I feel much better about this undertaking since I have talked with you guys. I was a little discouraged by the locals take on the project, but I also knew they were not very experienced with these guns either. With safety being the main objective, I'll continue forward.
Thanks,
Keith

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

Ironsights; I see only one thing wrong with your little "thumper", it's not mine!!!! Oh well project #603, gotta' have one of those:drinks: I have a set of barrels that have a bad "ding" about 20" out, make a dandy shortgun pair, nice toy!!!:mrgreen:
Keith; Track of The Wolf or Mt State muzzleloading have the correct wads for almost all "odd" size bores, then you get to play to find the load that the gun likes. YOU will love it, lots of smoke and noise!!!!
Nick

[eka]

Nick,

Ahh, thanks for the two companies regarding the wads. I was just wondering about that.

Thanks,

Keith

[mtngunr]

I am much appreciative of the post topic.....been taking Starr's advice for over 30yrs, using only three cardboard wads, and my experience shows him to right on track.....I think most fancy stuff is either a waste of money, or an attempt to make up in the load chain what the gun lacks in proper boring....I prefer cylinder bore personally, as most my game is taken well under 40yds.....the smoothbore is the blackpowder dream gun.....easy to load, easy to clean when done, capable of killing most anything that walks or flies in North America, using either shot or ball....and the post also reminded me of a half-finished project gun I bought and put away last year, a Spanish-made CVA 12ga SxS, it bought along with a half-finished CVA Kentucky rifle for $100 from a non-shooter homeowner who got them with the house.....I have another project gun in pieces on the table, but think that one is getting put away in pieces so that I can finish up this shotgun......

[mtngunr]

Keith , Clean out the rust (tornado brush) proof it and shoot it, lots of fun to roll a rabbit with a "piece of history". I have a 12 and a14 ga., if your barrels are english the 14 on the bottom meens 14ga, measure to be sure. There are lots of odd gages around 11, 13 17, that i have owned. Replace the nipples with new ss, if the threads are a bit loose, oversize nipples are available.
Belgians marked their barrels with mm size, not sure about other european makers.
Check it and shoot it!!!! My .02 worth
Nick

This is just a generic desenting opinion on proof loading the gun, counterpoint to all the proof-loading advisement.....the plugs NEED to be pulled and plugs/barrels inspected for security of attachment, rust and pits removed by boring, honing, polishing, whatever works.......but metal stress and fatigue is cumulative, and proof loading a gun ONLY proves it held that charge that one time, and it might let go the very next shot, even a shot of normal pressure......nobody advises proof loading used revolvers and rifles for very good reason, because it makes no sense to stress the gun in such a fashion, and there is no reason to do so with a muzzleloader, either.......you might, in fact, be creating a dangerous condition through such stress that didn't exist prior to proofing......if unsure of the gun's safety, AFTER complete disassembly and inspection of plugs and bores, then take her out and tie her to a tire, loaded with normal maximum loads, use string tied to triggers, and fire her enough to put your mind at ease.......but please, no double charges of powder or shot......why do that to an old gun, except to say you did it?

[waksupi]

Mtngunr, no objections to your observations. However, I know I have double charged guns in the past, and know many others who have. Easy to do with a double, if you are distracted. So, I would just as soon know if it would handle it, before it was in front of my face.
As far as dismounting the breechs of a double, it is a real pain in the butt, to impossible, on some of the older guns. I do grant, it is certainly a good idea, if you can do it!

[mtngunr]

Waksupi, my point is that you STILL will not know it will handle a second double charge.....how many double charges have already been put through the gun over the years? How many before the old girl finally lets go? We have no way of knowing the answers to those questions, so doing it again will only tell you it handled that double charge that one time.....any further inference is only hopeful guesswork, and is not supported by anything more than our own personal prejudices.....the same goes for normal loads, but we have a much higher degree of confidence in the outcome, as we are operating the gun within its design limits, rather than at double charges which might triple or quadruple pressures......if the owner cannot remove the plugs, he ought to send it to someone that can.....a well-cared-for arm might have no corrosion in the attaching threads, and a poorly-cared-for arm might only have a handful of packed rust scale holding the back of the barrel closed.........

[waksupi]

Well, I guess we could assume ANY firearm, will blow up at it's next firing. But chances are, it won't.
I've seen more than a few old shotguns, that were breeched, and then the ribs were soldered on. This makes dismounting them a problem.

[mtngunr]

I don't care to assume anything when lighting off a fixed breach black powder cannon only inches from my face, especially when I have no way of knowing the soundness of the breach attachment on an old gun of unknown ownership and care....something along the lines of the soldered in breach would be cause for me to reject live fire, period.....assumptions can be dangerous, and judgements of safety made on only statistical samples of one or two are nothing but assumption, with not enough info for a sound judgement.....proof loading with double charges might equally prove the old mild steel or iron breach and barrel threads held for that overload, meanwhile the thread setback and distortion has primed the gun for failure at some much earlier point using only normal pressure loads....but I'll stop beating a dead horse on this issue, as those inclined to agree with this reasoning already agree, while those who wish to believe they've proved something with a proof load will not let reason dissuade their wishes.......however, let me try to sway you with this one final thought.......reloading is a science that operates within known constraints of variables, and is well enough understood to be a safe and fun thing to do for the cautious reloader.....all science is based on repetition, with higher degrees of confidence in outcomes based on higher numbers of identical outcomes from previous experiments.......most every rock I've ever dropped has fallen, and so have everybody else's, so we have a high degree of confidence that the next rock will fall when dropped........actually, it might not, but we certainly believe it will and assume it will and act as if it will, and so far, it hasn't let us down...........contrast this to someone who manages to hop one-footed across a tightrope over Niagra Falls and then pronounces it safe......

[northmn]

A couple of points from my experiences and studies. The 14 gauge is said to have been fairly popular in England and is not really all that uncommon. Many of the English guns were stocked to shoot high for driven birds and can be an SOB to get down on for normal hunting. I have never had problems with a double charge out of a well made contemporary double, but some of the old warriors may have weakened over time. However, I have seen a lot of them still being shot. A proof testing proved that at that shot it did not blow, nothing else. As to loads, remember that the early BP cartridge guns shot loads a little lighter than we use today. 12 gauges were generally loaded with 1 to 1 1/8 oz of shot with the 10 using about 1 1/4. Some of this may be due to the fact that the early shot was soft and a longer shot columns were probably not efficient. This may also explain why Mr. Starr found the card wads to work ok and not to mess with the soft filler wads. Todays shot is harder. One of the things about a muzzle loader is that you can load what works. There is no need to get to fancy in patterning. Shoot at a piece of cardboard or paper at a reasonable range say about 30 yards and see if the pattern is even and reasonable in diameter. No real need to count to see if its IC or Mod as that doesnt really bring in the game in the field. A good test is to see if a 4 inch clay bird can get through the pattern. A lot of discussion has been aimed at wads. One of the little things I remember was that in muzzleloaders I never got all that worried. I won a shoot-off in a shotgun match one time using napkins for wads as I ran out of wads for the shoot-off. Kind of irritated the other guy watching all that stuff come out the end and still seeing the birds break. A couple of guys I knew went sharptail hunting in ND and used toilet paper for wads. They were a little sheepish about setting a stubble field on fire. They did get sharptails. Normally we used the fiber wads with lubrication, commonly I just put them in a cup of water while shooting trap, as it made the guns load easier after a few shots.

Northmn

[crossxsticks]

Waksupi, thank you for posting the shot gun article sure enjoyed the read you posted on Ml shotguns, I agree with you my model 12 is turned out to be a dust catcher lol I aint as lucky as you with the old original WM Moore to shoot i shoot a navy arms 12 that had to spend a bit on getting the barrels choked and locks ploshed and tuned haha but it shoots as good as any browning now ha. and I shoot smooth bore a lot with shot , your sure right about a meat gun and i agree most of the old timers especially out here in the flat lands used shot to hunt with by the way ill be using home made shot purty soon here . the most fun there is a muzzle loader trap shoot lol that is what got me started and there is several around country in the nmlra clubs and the protection matches are a hoot for sure.
I am working on putting a 20 ga. barrel on a h&a Underhammer aught to be a cotton tail gun deluxe.

[reivertom]

That is very cool Ironsights!

Nick,

I was thinking the fourteen may mean an odd guage, but I had never heard of a 14 guage. I will measure to make sure. The smith has already cleaned the threads up and replaced the nipples with stainless ones. I'm going to just go for it and proof this baby with the tire like Rick suggested. If that goes well, I'll put her back in shape mechanically and let the fun begin. I feel much better about this undertaking since I have talked with you guys. I was a little discouraged by the locals take on the project, but I also knew they were not very experienced with these guns either. With safety being the main objective, I'll continue forward.
Thanks,
Keith


I've got an old Belgian 14g That I refurbed and had to fit with new L&R back action locks and new nipples. The original locks were absolute crap, but the barrel was tight as a drum. This bore was supposed to be desireable to some of the rebels in the Civil War because 14 gauge is .69 caliber and the .69 cal musket balls would work in them. This sounds resonable to me. They had to scrounge for guns in many cases. The prelubed wads and over powder and over shot cards are avalable in bulk if you look around. They are lots of fun!

[wap41]

I would like to try shooting slugs out of my 16gaML.The 12ga lee keyed slug seems to be the right diameter without a shot cup.What wads should I use and how much pyrodex?It's a 7/8 oz slug

[waksupi]

I would like to try shooting slugs out of my 16gaML.The 12ga lee keyed slug seems to be the right diameter without a shot cup.What wads should I use and how much pyrodex?It's a 7/8 oz slug

I would suggest you read the first post in this topic, and stick with the recommendations there for a ML shotgun. This topic covers traditional shooting, so you may want to start another thread relating to modern loading practices.

[Nobade]

This Mr. Starr really knows what he is talking about! I have one of the Pietta 12ga. SXS guns Navy Arms used to sell, and had been struggling with it for some time. Today I shot it using cardboard wads like the article describes and all of a sudden it throws beautiful patterns, loads easy, and is a joy to use. Only having to carry one kind of wad is a huge bonus as well as much improved performance. Just remember to have a bottle of water to drink so you can make enough spit to keep it running.

I made a wad cutter out of 1147 steel, heat treated and stoned the edge. Running it in the drill press with a piece of scrap 2X4 under it I can cut wads quickly with no effort. And card board is free, so one less thing to buy!

[waksupi]

I always send new scatter gun shooters to this thread, but they usually choose to ignore the sound advise, and have to re-invent the wheel. Guess it's just too easy for them.

[Nobade]

I always send new scatter gun shooters to this thread, but they usually choose to ignore the sound advise, and have to re-invent the wheel. Guess it's just too easy for them.

Haha - everybody KNOWS you have to have an elaborate wad stack, shot cups, etc. Cardboard wads just can't work, right? Well they sure do, and I'm not going back. Another huge advantage is if you have a gun with an odd size barrel. You can't buy wads but you can make them. With this method it doesn't matter what size your gun's bore is. I sure appreciate your posting this.

[patsher]

Wow! Thanks for posting that book, waksupi! Great read, and great intro to ML-ing for me. I have pistols, not a shotgun, but it seems to me that much of what Mr. Starr had to say will cross over just fine!

Question: what KIND of cardboard are they talking about? The three-layered corrugated cardboard used in boxes, or the one-layer stuff used in small boxes typically used to package items for sale?

[waksupi]

When I need more card wads, I go to Walmart. Go to the art and picture frame section, and look for the heavy poster board. Works perfectly. It's about 1/16+" in thickness. You get LOTS of wads from one sheet.

[longbow]

I wish I had known all this back when I had my Pedersoli 12 ga.!

I didn't run into V.M. Starr's info until after it was gone. It was one of several sacrifices I made to fund college and it has never been replaced. I do keep thinking about though.

This is a terrific thread with lots of good info.

I just might print it off myself as I have been thinking about a muzzleloading shotgun again... and a trade musket... and...

One day!

Longbow

[jnovotny]

Very good read! Thought I knew everything I needed to know about ML scatterguns, guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. :guntootsmiley:

[RED333]

As I just picked up a 12ga ML SxS this is a good find, thanks much.

[Marc Adamchek]

I bought this about 3 years ago and when it came in the mail I read it cover to cover (It's only about10 pages!). I was disappointed because all the shotguns he used he had jug choked and recommended the same. Shoot yeah, you jug choke a muzzleloader you can get some good groups but there's a way to get good groups WITHOUT messing with the barrels and he doesn't give one bit of help in load development for the straight cylinder tubed old percussion guns you're going to have.

[waksupi]

I bought this about 3 years ago and when it came in the mail I read it cover to cover (It's only about10 pages!). I was disappointed because all the shotguns he used he had jug choked and recommended the same. Shoot yeah, you jug choke a muzzleloader you can get some good groups but there's a way to get good groups WITHOUT messing with the barrels and he doesn't give one bit of help in load development for the straight cylinder tubed old percussion guns you're going to have.
On the contrary, this does indeed work with a cylinder bore shotgun. I get very good pattern dispersal with Vic's methods.

[william l evans]

Loading 12 ga slug. I have lyman slug mold no. 12 BX, hollow base (big), it mikes out at .705. My barrel is cy bore, the slug slides down the tube. It is too large to put it in a shot cup and load it. can I just drop it over a cardboard wad and place another cardboard wad over it, the big skirt may fill the bore on firing. I even thought of paperpatching the slug for a tight fit. Any thoughts?
Bill

[RhodeHunter]

When I need more card wads, I go to Walmart. Go to the art and picture frame section, and look for the heavy poster board. Works perfectly. It's about 1/16+" in thickness. You get LOTS of wads from one sheet.

Waksupi, since I made my Spanish-made Kentucky into a smoothbore, I will be trying to make some card wads. Since the cards you are using are a smidge thinner than the 3/32" recommended by Starr, do you change the number of cards you use? Or do you still use 2 cards over the powder and 1 over the shot? Thanks.

[waksupi]

Waksupi, since I made my Spanish-made Kentucky into a smoothbore, I will be trying to make some card wads. Since the cards you are using are a smidge thinner than the 3/32" recommended by Starr, do you change the number of cards you use? Or do you still use 2 cards over the powder and 1 over the shot? Thanks.
I've stayed with 2 and 1. Shoot some patterns on newspaper, and let the gun tell you what it likes.

[RhodeHunter]

My Walmart did not have any of the heavy posterboard. I ended up buying a sheet of 20inch x 30inch Canson art board at Joann's Fabric. I thought that was thick enough, but on the micrometer it is 0.055 inches thick. The 3/32 inch from Starr is almost double that at 0.09375. After much research on the web, what is really needed is what is called "chipboard", which is cardboard that is not corrugated. Even with that, 3/32 inch is the thickest it comes. It is called 2X heavy chipboard, 85 point, 3/32 inch, which they say is about the thickness of two dimes. Just an FYI for anyone looking like I am. ALSO, can anyone tell me the year Starr wrote what he wrote? He mentions a contest that took place in 1948. So this must be written at least after that; just wondering when he wrote this.

[waksupi]

My Walmart did not have any of the heavy posterboard. I ended up buying a sheet of 20inch x 30inch Canson art board at Joann's Fabric. I thought that was thick enough, but on the micrometer it is 0.055 inches thick. The 3/32 inch from Starr is almost double that at 0.09375. After much research on the web, what is really needed is what is called "chipboard", which is cardboard that is not corrugated. Even with that, 3/32 inch is the thickest it comes. It is called 2X heavy chipboard, 85 point, 3/32 inch, which they say is about the thickness of two dimes. Just an FYI for anyone looking like I am. ALSO, can anyone tell me the year Starr wrote what he wrote? He mentions a contest that took place in 1948. So this must be written at least after that; just wondering when he wrote this.


No idea. Vic was an old man when I met him in the early 70's.

[griffiga]

I remember reading a reprint of his article in a black powder/hunting magazine my first year in College back in 1975, my guess would be that he wrote it sometime during the 1960's soon after the black powder boom started. I do have a question for you experts out there. I have 4 or 5 old original percussion shotguns, one is a W. Moore 12 ga, another J Hollis 12 ga, an English 16 ga, and two single bbl fowlers of English make (one 12 and the other 32 ga). They are all in pretty decent shape and I have shot them a lot, but with relatively light loads (60 grains FFG and 1 oz shot for the 12's and 50 grains FFG and 3/4 to 7/8 oz shot for the 16). Up until now all I have shot at were a few small critters and clay pigeons. My question is how heavy could I safely go if I wanted to hunt Turkey or Pheasant?

[danthman114]

just seen this thread and am pleased...
the other forums I frequent have almost no interest in black powder. i took my sxs 12ga out for dove season this year and had lots of looks and grins. im using 1 1/4 pyrodex rs with a 1/8 nitro card and 1/4 pre-lubed wad. (just a 1/2" split in half) with 1 1/4oz #7.5 shot.
works great for dove.
227324227325

[Buzzard II]

GREAT INFO! My printer bought the farm so I could not print out a copy for myself. I ordered a COPY from smile.amazon . Cost $12.95 plus shipping & tax.

[44-40 Willy]

I've been looking at getting my old Navy Arms SxS 12ga down off the wall. I bought it new around '83 and hunted with it for years. Then about 20 years ago, I put it in the living room gun cabinet and it's been there ever since. I think it's about time to teach the newer generation of squirrels a few things. And see if my grandkids have any interest in shooting the black powder instead of the black guns.

Now if I can just figure out where I put all the stuff that went with it.

[LawrenceA]

Had mine out last Saturday.
Belgium 14 Gauge 266329
266330
Izz funnn:bigsmyl2:

[SeaMonkey]

Agreed, great topic with really incredible information about the old shotguns!

I'd not seen powder loads measured in drams before and am wondering which
dram measurement was used for the book? Was it Apothecaries Dram (20 grains)
or Avoirdupois Dram (27.334 grains) if anyone should know?

I like the thought of using the larger grain 1fg powder too for perhaps a more effective
pressure development during the burn. A slower burning grain size is much safer for the
old guns and, as pointed out in the text, results in much lower peak pressures in the barrel
than would be the case with faster burning 3fg or 2fg.

[cornbelt]

Sea Monkey, it is Avoirdupois, which is 1/16 oz.
Good information here, backed up by experience. Interesting to find out that I'm not the only one who ever loaded shot w/o powder. After that I started using a clothes pin on the bbl I needed to avoid.
Anyone here ever use a buffer w/the shot for tighter patterns on cyl bore guns?

[Thundermaker]

Great stuff. This'll help me out when I start working up shot loads for a repro musket.

[rockrat]

V.M.Starr is who re-lined my 92 Winchester (25-20) back in the early 70's.

Hmm--I have a H&R 12ga. Huntsman ML shotgun just sitting in the safe. Might have to pull it out one of these days and try it out.