Primers for 454 Casull

[nighthunter]

I'm having a problem getting good ignition with H-110 in my 454. I tried a firmer crimp which didn't help. I'm using Winchester Small Rifle primers. They work well with other powders such as 2400. After having to knock a few bullets from the barrel I pulled what was left. Weighed the powder charges after pulling the bullets and all were spot on at 29.0 grains. Would a Remington 7 1/2 primer give me better ignition? It is supposed to be a little hotter than their 6 1/2.

Nighthunter

[waco]

Small Rifle MAGNUM primers.......

[nighthunter]

A Remington 7 1/2 is considered a MAGNUM primer in most manuals. Have you experience with it or just running an armchair response?

Nighthunter

[str8wal]

So are you saying the primers aren't lighting the powder, but are dislodging the bullet?

[Cornbread]

As long as I run loads that are not downloaded in any way I have never had any problems getting complete and total ignition with CCI small rifle primers in any of my three 454 Casulls. I have never tried Winchester primers in it. I had issues with Winchester primers and odd ignition in 45-70 so after I used them up I have never tried any Winchester primers since. They are probably fine for half the world but my gun didn't like them. I have used CCI in all primer types since then. I shoot 200 rounds of 454 even on slow weeks, sometimes I shoot that many in an afternoon and I have not had a single issue with ignition of H-110 using CCI. The big caveat to that is never to download it. If you download it you get all kinds of ignition problems. That is why I dislike H-110, it has a really narrow window in which it works well. In that window it is fantastic, out of that window you never know what you are going to get. I use it for full house, snot beater loads and it works amazingly well. For everything else in 454 I use 4227.

[nighthunter]

That's correct str8wal. Some lodge in the barrel and the ones that don't are definitely are under powered. Unburnt powder is very evident in both cases.


Nighthunter

[High Desert Hunter]

If you can, I would suggest trying a different primer. I have fired thousand upon thousands of 454 Casull loads, most loaded with middle of the road to full house loads of H110 and have never experienced a single misfire. Only misfire I have ever had was in a Super Blackhawk with H110 at -30* F.

[Whiterabbit]

I'm sitting in an armchair. I don't shoot 454 cassul anymore, only 460. But if I DID trade my 460 for a 454, I would be using large rifle magnum primers for all my loads.

Because I would have all my 460 brass (and if I did not I would be willing to buy a few hundred new) which I would cut down to fit my 454 cylinder. Problem solved. Especially since I don't reload any small primer cases, so it makes stocking up on primers VERY easy.

[Tatume]

You don't say what weight bullet you're loading or in what gun you're shooting them. Using CCI small rifle primers and Accurate No. 9 with 265 and 300 grain cast bullets I get perfect ignition once the charge is heavy enough. Problems with ignition occur when the charge is too light. In the voluminous 454 Casull case there is no recourse but to shoot stiff charges of slow burning powders. If you want lighter loads, use Unique or 2400.

[bobthenailer]

For loads using 30+ grs of H-110 /296 or WCC 820 i use Rem 7 1/2 BR rifle primers, for loads using up to 29grs H-110/296 & WCC 820 i use Federal small rifle primers, for loads using up to 9.0 grs of Tightgroup powder i use Federal small pistol primers.

[truckboss]

I've had my model 83 in 454 for over 20 plus years.I only use WSR primers and 95% of my loads are h110.I have never had this problem,not saying it does not exist.The lowest temp I've shot was 30 degrees.My favorite load 26 grn h110 335grn wlngc lbt,this rocks.I can't even tell how many of these i've shot with out one misfire:veryconfuI hope you find your problem.Working on your gun is not as fun as shooting it:bigsmyl2:

[wlc]

Has/does anyone use the CCI 41's? They are the primers that are made for the AR with the harder cups to avoid slamfires. IIRC they are also mag primers. Recon they would work reliably in a Ruger SRH 454? Reason I ask is that I have several thousand of them and no regular SRM primers on hand.

[JeffHolt]

Magnum powder like H-110, Win 296 and MP-300 ect., require magnum primers for reliable ignition. A heavy crimp helps as well. It's really that simple. just my 2 cents...

[cbrick]

Need to know what bullet weight. 29 gr H-110 with bullets of 240 gr is way to light a charge for H-110 to work. I tried H-110 with 240's loading down to 33 gr's with miserable results, load wouldn't hit a barn if I were standing inside it. Without pressure H-110 simply will not burn well and you'll get the results you experienced. Crimp isn't the solution and a hotter primer will have very limited success. Bottom line . . . H-110 cannot be loaded down.

So, what bullet weight?

Rick

[nighthunter]

Bullet is NOE 454-285 SWC. My bullets weigh in at 290 grains and I size them to .452. I came into some WC-820 powder yesterday which has been my long time favorite powder for mag handgun and am going to use it in the 454. WC-820 is much easier to light.

Nighthunter

[44man]

Need to read what I found. You need to shoot max or just under with H110 or 296 using the SR primer of any kind.
Cut down .460 brass and use a LP mag primer and you can shoot any load from starting book loads to max. Imagine shooting another shot with a boolit in the bore and unburned powder behind it?
Any SR primer is just wrong and brass never should have been made for them. I would not buy the .454 abortion.
Do not let anyone tell you what primer to use. Tests show the SR is wrong. Any can have a failure to ignite without a full charge of H110 or 296. Other powders get by. I have opened primer pockets for a LP but it is hard to do. Best to go through the pain of cutting .460 brass.
I carry a brass rod and a hammer in my shooting bag for those that don't listen.

[High Desert Hunter]

44man, will have to disagree, I have fired thousands of 454 rounds in 2 different firearms, and have never had a misfire or hangfire. I have shot loads of H110 with bullets from 250grs up to 420grs. Couldn't begin to figure how many jugs of H110 I have burned in my 454. I get great case life, and the primer pockets stay tight. I have never personally known anyone who has had problems with the 454 and 454 brass.

[lawdog941]

What's the case volume of a 460 cut down to 454 specs? Are they the same or is there manufacturing differences of the same make?

[Plastikosmd]

I'm closing in on 2k rounds fired with 3 different platforms (FA x2 and a Taurus over 16 yrs.)

Never a failure.
I run with unique for plinkers and 4227 for power.
It isn't the round, it's how it was loaded and the choice of components in the load.

[44man]

No problem with full charges of H110 or 296 but starting book loads would not ignite. You can't work loads from the book, Just go to max for these powders. Other powders are OK.
Once I went to a large primer pocket, even a standard LP fired all loads but the Fed 155 was more accurate. Freedom and SRH. Both failed with starting loads.
.460 brass is the same. Just longer. Cut it and see how good the .454 can be.

[cbrick]

Look at book loads for most any H-110 load and there is a very narrow window between starting and max loads. For a reason.

Rick

[44man]

You forget the .454 started with duplex and triplex loads with Bullseye at the primer. Fear was the LP could not take the pressures, unfounded since I went over max with a Fed 155. Never flattened a primer.

[badbob454]

Bullet is NOE 454-285 SWC. My bullets weigh in at 290 grains and I size them to .452. I came into some WC-820 powder yesterday which has been my long time favorite powder for mag handgun and am going to use it in the 454. WC-820 is much easier to light.

Nighthunterand burns cleaner...

[cbrick]

You forget the .454 started with duplex and triplex loads with Bullseye at the primer. Fear was the LP could not take the pressures, unfounded since I went over max with a Fed 155. Never flattened a primer.

No, I didn't forget the origins of the 454. I also didn't forget that H-110 will not work well with reduced loads regardless of the primer.

Happy Thanksgiving. :mrgreen:

Rick

[High Desert Hunter]

44man, you must have gotten a lot# of H110 that was a little off. I have never had a single failure when using published loads in either the FA or the Ruger version. I would never say that you didn't have an issue, but my own personal experience doesn't have the same results as yours.

[MarkP]

This can happen in a 30 M1 carb with only 15 gr of 296/H110.

[cbrick]

This can happen in a 30 M1 carb with only 15 gr of 296/H110.

Probably so, that's a full 1.5 gr lighter than recommended starting charge. Hodgdon lists 16.5 to 17.5 gr H-110 for both rifle and pistol. H-110 should not be reduced, it will not burn well. A narrow window from start to max loads with H-110, in the 30 Carb it's 1.0 gr.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Rick

[truckboss]

Need to know what bullet weight. 29 gr H-110 with bullets of 240 gr is way to light a charge for H-110 to work. I tried H-110 with 240's loading down to 33 gr's with miserable results, load wouldn't hit a barn if I were standing inside it. Without pressure H-110 simply will not burn well and you'll get the results you experienced. Crimp isn't the solution and a hotter primer will have very limited success. Bottom line . . . H-110 cannot be loaded down.

So, what bullet weight?

RickYep.I would say on the light side.On the F/A web site it shows their 300 grn. at 28.5 h110.

[cbrick]

Yep.I would say on the light side.On the F/A web site it shows their 300 grn. at 28.5 h110.

:mrgreen: Yep, I never have said that there weren't lessons that I had to learn the hard way. I had a very early FA 454, load data that came with the revolver from FA for 240 gr bullet was 36.0 to 39.0 gr. and yep, I had to learn for myself they were correct. They were.

Rick

[44man]

i went by Hodgdon data to start. Failures until the charge was more.
I posted about a 1/2 gr reduction with 4759 in the 45-70 that failed to light off. Who would expect? LR primer too.
The OP found the same as I did.
Be careful, I don't post for fun.

[Joni Lynn]

I haven't fired my FA 454 all that much but I've had no ignition issues either. I loaded 296, 1680 and Unique all with the 7 1/2 primer and all loads were more than starting loads and not max loads.
I have seen 296 & H110 fail to ignite when the load was too light.
Best wishes.

[MarkP]

Incorrect 15 gr is a max charge for a 30 M1 with a 110 gr which is the most commonly available bullet wt, you are showing 85 gr data.

This was encountered in laboratory conditions; commercial loading and testing. It can and does happen with full pressure loads.


Probably so, that's a full 1.5 gr lighter than recommended starting charge. Hodgdon lists 16.5 to 17.5 gr H-110 for both rifle and pistol. H-110 should not be reduced, it will not burn well. A narrow window from start to max loads with H-110, in the 30 Carb it's 1.0 gr.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Rick

[nighthunter]

OK .... update ..... I'm not sure the Winchester small rifle primer is the culprit. Today I loaded and shot 50 rounds loaded with 27.0 gr WC-820 and CCI 450 primers. I had 4 squib loads out of the 50. I am wondering if perhaps the primers are some how being damaged when seating in my Dillon 550 press. To find out I loaded 50 rounds the old way on my 45 year old Rock Chucker press and seated the primers with an RCBS hand held priming unit. I'll take the rounds to the range tomorrow and see how they perform. I appreciate everything from you guys so far and will update tomorrow.

Nighthunter

[Plastikosmd]

Primers are igniting tho? How would that be the issue? Something doesn't make sense. I only load in a 550......ponder

[cbrick]

Incorrect 15 gr is a max charge for a 30 M1 with a 110 gr which is the most commonly available bullet wt, you are showing 85 gr data.

This was encountered in laboratory conditions; commercial loading and testing. It can and does happen with full pressure loads.

Your right, just looked again. Sorry, I need to be more careful.

Rick

[cbrick]

OK .... update ..... I'm not sure the Winchester small rifle primer is the culprit. Today I loaded and shot 50 rounds loaded with 27.0 gr WC-820 and CCI 450 primers. I had 4 squib loads out of the 50. I am wondering if perhaps the primers are some how being damaged when seating in my Dillon 550 press. To find out I loaded 50 rounds the old way on my 45 year old Rock Chucker press and seated the primers with an RCBS hand held priming unit. I'll take the rounds to the range tomorrow and see how they perform. I appreciate everything from you guys so far and will update tomorrow. Nighthunter

Thinking out loud, you changed powder and primer & still had 4 squibs, weak hammer spring maybe? How did the primer indent look on all of them, even the squibs?

Rick

[MarkP]

I have seen primers with inverted anvils, however these were complete misfires.

Primer strikes should have a minimum indent of at least 0.017" in depth.

[ebner glocken]

I've used magtec small rifle primers in the 454 w/o issue so far. The load I settled out for was 31.0 296 behind a lee 300 w/ gas check. The only real issue was bullet pull that was corrected with a purchase of a redding full profile die. Here's some results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9yDfYMzUrc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjRO1UtRA1k

Ebner

[44man]

I've used magtec small rifle primers in the 454 w/o issue so far. The load I settled out for was 31.0 296 behind a lee 300 w/ gas check. The only real issue was bullet pull that was corrected with a purchase of a redding full profile die. Here's some results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9yDfYMzUrc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjRO1UtRA1k

Ebner
31 is a full load for a 300 gr. 28 and 29 had failures, book starting loads.
I have no experience with WC-820 but have to surmise it needs 100 % load capacity.
Not primer damage and a primer does need hit with a certain force but does not explain the wrong primer in the .454. The SR primer has a lot of pressure with not enough fire. Push powder out and the flame goes out. You must keep powder at the flash hole.
Once you cut .460 brass for the LP mag, you will see the .454 come to life.

[cbrick]

does not explain the wrong primer in the .454. Once you cut .460 brass for the LP mag, you will see the .454 come to life.

Seems your the only one with an issue with the design and or the designers of the cartridge. I've never experienced a single problem with the exception of trying to reduce H-110. Not a single primer problem of any kind and I think my 454 had plenty of both life and accuracy.

Rick

[Joni Lynn]

The original ammo/brass for the 454 used a large pistol primer. I think I still have some here somewhere. Freedom Arms changed to small rifle primer for some reason. I never had any issues with either in my guns.

[nighthunter]

Made it to the range yesterday. Was shooting WC-820 with Rem 7 1/2 primers. No problems what so ever. 27.5 gr is listed as max for AA #9. Being that primers were seated with the RCBS hand priming tool I think my problem is the primer seating in the press. I am not bad mouthing the press manufacturer I just think maybe I have to find if something needs adjusted. I looked up the specs on the priming arm and will check into it here shortly.

Nighthunter

[Whiterabbit]

31 is a full load for a 300 gr. 28 and 29 had failures, book starting loads.

Any person who experiences this, all they have to do is seat the boolit deeper and they will see ignition failures go away.

[BRobertson]

Seems your the only one with an issue with the design and or the designers of the cartridge. I've never experienced a single problem with the exception of trying to reduce H-110. Not a single primer problem of any kind and I think my 454 had plenty of both life and accuracy.

Rick

Amen to that!!
I don't have as much experience with the .454 as some, (I hunt exclusively with the .44) but after hundreds of rounds from my M83s, I have had no problems with the small rifle primers( Rem 7 1/2) and 296. I have quite a few friends that have extensive experience with the .454 and they all seem to feel as I do!!

Bob

[44man]

[QUOTE=cbrick;3027698]Seems your the only one with an issue with the design and or the designers of the cartridge. I've never experienced a single problem with the exception of trying to reduce H-110. Not a single primer problem of any kind and I think my 454 had plenty of both life and accuracy.
You said it right, reduced loads, means starting book loads too. Just use enough powder. Our problem was starting book loads. Can't work loads at all just go max.

[Cornbread]

Seems your the only one with an issue with the design and or the designers of the cartridge. I've never experienced a single problem with the exception of trying to reduce H-110. Not a single primer problem of any kind and I think my 454 had plenty of both life and accuracy.

Rick

Amen to that!!
I don't have as much experience with the .454 as some, (I hunt exclusively with the .44) but after hundreds of rounds from my M83s, I have had no problems with the small rifle primers( Rem 7 1/2) and 296. I have quite a few friends that have extensive experience with the .454 and they all seem to feel as I do!!

Bob

Yep same here. I've never had an issue with CCI SR primers and a full load of H-110 and I live in Montana and it gets cold with a capital "C" here. There is probably no issue with the WSR primers either I just don't care for Winchester primers. A lot of guys love them and they work great for them so that is purely personal preference on my part not something anyone should base their primer choice on. What I can tell you for sure is that with CCI SR primers and H-110 full house loads I have had zero problems with ignition. Sore hand problems when using my 2" 454 snubby, yes, but ignition problems no.

Like a few have mentioned, never, ever download H-110. I dislike H-110 for the narrow window it has between not going off, and going off like a bomb. For this reason I prefer 4227. Again personal preference because I like to be able to go up and down a ways depending on which of my 454s I am shooting. H-110 does not give me that flexibility, 4227 does to a much larger extent and that meets my needs/wants.

It looks like the OP found the problem, light strikes due to the primer not being fully seated so the primer slides in when hit leading to crummy ignition in some cases.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't understand everyone's aversion to downloading H110. Truly, honestly, seriously, in 454 it is easy and safe. Just keep pushing the bullet down till the base hits the powder, 0% compression. (and 0% empty airspace in the case!)

No issues, and you all have likely read of ruger only loads in 45 colt which (65ksi notwithstanding) are, for all intents and purposes, reduced 454 cassull loads. The difference? Not leaving empty space in the case.

OF COURSE it's a recipe for squibs if you maintain the same OAL thus expanding the amount of airspace in the case. However, in a revolver we have the luxury of seating OAL wherever we want, assuming we properly expand the case to get solid neck tension on the case.

I promise you all, it works, and you can prove it by using H110 45 colt loads (with 45 colt OAL) in 454 cases in your 454 revolvers. It does work.

[Cornbread]

I don't understand everyone's aversion to downloading H110. Truly, honestly, seriously, in 454 it is easy and safe. Just keep pushing the bullet down till the base hits the powder, 0% compression. (and 0% empty airspace in the case!)

No issues, and you all have likely read of ruger only loads in 45 colt which (65ksi notwithstanding) are, for all intents and purposes, reduced 454 cassull loads. The difference? Not leaving empty space in the case.

OF COURSE it's a recipe for squibs if you maintain the same OAL thus expanding the amount of airspace in the case. However, in a revolver we have the luxury of seating OAL wherever we want, assuming we properly expand the case to get solid neck tension on the case.

I promise you all, it works, and you can prove it by using H110 45 colt loads (with 45 colt OAL) in 454 cases in your 454 revolvers. It does work.

I guess I should clarify, don't download H-110 at regular OAL for 454 Casull.

I shoot Ruger only H-110 45 colt loads in my Ruger convertible 45 colt / 45 acp and Whiterabbit is correct, it works fine you just can't do the same thing with 454 cases and crimp in the normal crimp groove for your standard 454 OAL or you leave airspace and you get big problems.

[happie2shoot]

I don't understand everyone's aversion to downloading H110. Truly, honestly, seriously, in 454 it is easy and safe. Just keep pushing the bullet down till the base hits the powder, 0% compression. (and 0% empty airspace in the case!)

No issues, and you all have likely read of ruger only loads in 45 colt which (65ksi notwithstanding) are, for all intents and purposes, reduced 454 cassull loads. The difference? Not leaving empty space in the case.

OF COURSE it's a recipe for squibs if you maintain the same OAL thus expanding the amount of airspace in the case. However, in a revolver we have the luxury of seating OAL wherever we want, assuming we properly expand the case to get solid neck tension on the case.

I promise you all, it works, and you can prove it by using H110 45 colt loads (with 45 colt OAL) in 454 cases in your 454 revolvers. It does work.


You sound like Veral Smith, years ago I called him and asked him about wc-820 and he said seat it on down on the
powder just like H-110 and you will love it, have gone through 3 eight lb kegs of 820 and 4 eight lb kegs of H108,
he and you are right.[smilie=s:

[Whiterabbit]

the voice of experience. Funny thing? It works for 460 S&W too. I've loaded 45 colt loads in 460 cases, 454 loads in 45 cases, and every combo minus 460 loads in 45 cases, it's just too small!

Also funny thing? Works for 38/357/357 max too!

http://www.hmds.ws/Pics/357magmaxi.jpg

For revolver, just have to make sure they don't jump since often you aren't in the crimp groove anyways. Easy enough to test. Taper crimp dies exist if crimp is truly needed.

I made myself a tool for load development:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123325&d=1417412530
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123326&d=1417412530

No matter what powder, no matter what charge, I know how far to seat the boolit to put the boolit base on the powder. Marks are every .100 inches. I have one in .45 and one with a .25 rod for 7mm.

ALL my loads are 100% load density unless there is a specific reason to deviate.

[nighthunter]

I don't know what some of you didn't "get, comprehend or understand". 29.0 gr H-110 with a 300 gr cast bullet is not an under loaded charge of powder. You post the data as it appears in commonly available reloading publications and prove me wrong. Just because the primer went ffffffffttttttttttttt doesn't mean I charged the case with the wrong amount of powder. 44man trying to make his usual spiel against the 454 because of the primer size doesn't impress me much.

[Cornbread]

I don't know what some of you didn't "get, comprehend or understand". 29.0 gr H-110 with a 300 gr cast bullet is not an under loaded charge of powder. You post the data as it appears in commonly available reloading publications and prove me wrong. Just because the primer went ffffffffttttttttttttt doesn't mean I charged the case with the wrong amount of powder. 44man trying to make his usual spiel against the 454 because of the primer size doesn't impress me much.

Up until this post you never gave your bullet weight. People were guessing that you may have downloaded since you didn't specify bullet weight. Since you aren't downloading, it sounds like maybe a primer seating issue.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have an original 454 [ The factory ask if I wanted my order changed to adj sights as they just brought them out].
Also original LP brass. Never had a problem.
However, I got the gun to shoot heavy loads, never loaded to less than the middle of the charge weight.
The gun is designed to drive 240 to 260 gr bullets [ J-word] in the 2000 fps range so lighter loads were not considered.
My rule of thumb is, : no less than 90% fill to the bottom of the case and usually 95%.
Modern cases have less space than orginal,so over loading is little problem.
IF you are shooting an FA 83 don,t worry as a test was made with a cast 250gr boolet and a full case of BULLSEYE,,,,,, no damage.
If you want to load down, use a faster / easer to light powder [ 2400 , unique etc] and save the Magnum powders for the hot stuff.
A real nice load is Trailboss [full case ] and a cast 250gr boolet.

[Plastikosmd]

^ strong frame for sure, wonder what the pressure on that load was

[Whiterabbit]

I don't know what some of you didn't "get, comprehend or understand". 29.0 gr H-110 with a 300 gr cast bullet is not an under loaded charge of powder. You post the data as it appears in commonly available reloading publications and prove me wrong. Just because the primer went ffffffffttttttttttttt doesn't mean I charged the case with the wrong amount of powder. 44man trying to make his usual spiel against the 454 because of the primer size doesn't impress me much.


I sense some anger or general upset-ness within the text of this post. No need! No maliciousness on my end anyways, no hate, no anger. Just hte facts. Here's the bottom line: H110 does not like empty space in the case. Many powders are like this, but H110 is particularly intolerant. I don't care if a charge is over, under, high pressure, low pressure, etc etc etc. The moment you put air in the case, it BECOMES a low pressure load! At that time, squibbs become a risk.

But there are other ways to get a de-facto pressure reduction without empty airspace. For example, a weak crimp combined with poor case tension. This allows for easy boolit movement, which makes the expansion chamber expand sooner, which (of course!) reduces pressure. Some folks say they see improvement with a harder crimp. No surprises. I tell you I don;t crimp at all, even H110. I use neck tension to get me to the same place. What else? Use soft lead and a PB boolit. That also makes it easier to move no matter WHAT neck tension or crimp you put on it. That will always have less ignition pressure than a GC boolit or a hardcast. you don;t have to take my word for this, it is testable!

What else? The hotter primer of course reduces the risk of squibb because of the increased pressure. Some people don't need it? of course! They have enough of the other factors (qty of powder regardless of data, lack of airspace, sufficiently low expension chamber) to achieve the needed pressure for consistent ignition.

It's pretty straightforward.

----------------------

It applies with many ball powders. Great example is AA#9. Exactly the same, but with MUCH less sensitivity to expansion. So downloading is OK, but it will still reach the point of squibbing faster than other powders, and risk mitigation runs the same way.

----------

H110 is just sensitive, is all.

[High Desert Hunter]

I reserve H110 for the heaviest of loads, that is where it shines, in the past I have used every load in the book, from starting loads up through maximums with no issues. The small rifle primers are not an issue, I have used them in other applications, some of which they had to ignite even slower burning powder with no failures. In the AR platform, small rifle primers are the norm. The problem with H110 is as has been stated, air space within the case. Shooting an FA, I trim my brass to the bare minimum, and keep it there, this also reduces the amount of airspace when bullets are crimped in the crimp groove.