Little help for my first rifle (AR-15) cast project

[just_shooter]

Hi, guys!
I need your help. I've been casting and reloading and have a lot of experience with pistol bullets, but now I start cast rifle ones. Especially .223 for my new AR-15 (my first rifle ever).I'm trying to gather all the equipment I need, and only thing I have no idea what to do is the mold. I found a nice ones at NOE website, but please help me which type to choose - with gas check groove, or without. I would like to keep low cost, so I'm gonna make my own gas checks. If I can use soda cans for GC that will be great and will be cheaper ofcourse.
So here are the questions:
1. Are soda can GC good enough to prevent leading?
2. If I make GC out of soda cans will they stay firmly on the boolits without CG grooves?
3. I suppose soda can GC can not be put on boolits with GC grooves, because they are too thin. Am I right?
4. If I use mold with GC grooves what thickness must be the aluminum/copper sheets, so they stay firmly?
5. Which GC tool to choose - FreeChex III or Checkmaker from Pat Marlin (easy to work with, delivery time, etc.)?

Appreciate your help.
Simon.

[ipijohn]

You really need to determine what you are going to do and ask some questions with dimensions, boolit weight, velocity wanted, boolit design, lube you plan on using, alloy etc.

[bruce drake]

Continue to look through the forum on information regarding using cast .223 bullets. There is a mold maker in Slovenia that makes quality molds and you will probably escape the shipping costs from the USA. Search for MiHec Molds on the forum and you'll see he has several .223 caliber mold sizes for sale.

Regarding Gaschecks, there is a fellow on the forum called Blammer that sells gas-checks at a great price as well.

Bruce

[just_shooter]

The mold maker doesn't bother me neither shipping costs. The alloy will be with 15-16 BHP. I like to keep things simple so I was thinking about Lee Liquid Alox as coating. For my handgun bullets I use PC and MCC and of course I could use these methods as well. The main concern that I have is about cas checks. If GC made of soda cans will do the job I would use them, but will they stay firmly on bullets without gas check grouve on the bottom?

Edit: Since my barrel is with 1:9 twist I guess I will cast 60 or 62 gr. bullets.

[dragon813gt]

Soda can checks are for plain base bullets. The material is not thick enough for a gas check design bullet. If you wan to make your own buy your Aluminium from Yonky at www.coilandfoil.com
If this is your first foray into rifle reloading you are in for a world of pain. 22 caliber is finicky to begin w/ and you're throwing in a semiauto action on top of it. Be prepared for quite a bit of work to get it all to work right.

[just_shooter]

Soda can checks are for plain base bullets. The material is not thick enough for a gas check design bullet.
I know that, but I don't know if these soda can GCs will do the job to prevent leading or material must be thicker for .223?

[dragon813gt]

I know that, but I don't know if these soda can GCs will do the job to prevent leading or material must be thicker for .223?

I answered your question. It's the wrong material. It's not going to fit the gas check shank so they won't work. You need thicker aluminium.

[jayjay1]

1:9 twist seems to be a Schmeisser?

I´m in here, to see how this goes.
Thought, that cast boolits won´t work in an AR, because they get damaged by feeding and might lose some lead when passing the gas hole.

MP molds is a great adress for custom made molds, I have four pieces of art from Miha, and shipping costs, for being settled in Europe, are very low.

[just_shooter]

Thank you, dragon813gt.
But I guess I can't explain the things correctly. I don't have bullet mold yet, so I consider if I buy plain base mold, will soda can GCs stay firmly or will be loose, and will they do the job to prevent leading for .223 (in combination with Lee Liquide Allox)?

[beezapilot]

For what it is worth- I've read some negative reports of cast in AR platforms, problems with gas ports and the like, but do not know for sure as I've not crossed that bridge- I cast for a bolt action .223 that has become my "plinkin' devil" and use gas checks- although at the velocity that I load for they are not required.

[just_shooter]

[QUOTE=jayjay1;3020950]1:9 twist seems to be a Schmeisser?/QUOTE]

Mossberg MMR

[dragon813gt]

Most of the reports are false claims. It does require more work but you can shoot cast in your AR w/ no issues. There is one particular forum where everyone likes to say you can't shoot cast period.

As far as PB gas checks I don't know the answer because I don't use them. Most of the molds available are gas check designs.

[xacex]

For what it is worth- I've read some negative reports of cast in AR platforms, problems with gas ports and the like, but do not know for sure as I've not crossed that bridge- I cast for a bolt action .223 that has become my "plinkin' devil" and use gas checks- although at the velocity that I load for they are not required.
Pure horse pucky! Tell that to the AR rifles in the stable that have eaten thousands already. In fact, added another couple of hundred rounds of cast through two 300 Blackout's yesterday. No gas port blockage, no leading, nothing blew up, or stopped working.

[Forgetful]

.22 GCs are very inexpensive, something like $30 for 1000. $0.03 per GC. If you want to eliminate that overhead cost, try paper patching. In many ways, paper is superior to GC.

[just_shooter]

Pure horse pucky! Tell that to the AR rifles in the stable that have eaten thousands already. In fact, added another couple of hundred rounds of cast through two 300 Blackout's yesterday. No gas port blockage, no leading, nothing blew up, or stopped working.

Sounds encouraging. I almost got a long face. Could you give a recipe to success? Hardness, lube, GC, etc.

[beezapilot]

I'm with you Just Shooter- I was just reading those dastardly worry warts that wrote the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. As a novice reloading .223's I'm willing to try cast in an AR- Whats the secret to success?????

[just_shooter]

.22 GCs are very inexpensive, something like $30 for 1000. $0.03 per GC. If you want to eliminate that overhead cost, try paper patching. In many ways, paper is superior to GC.

I've never heard of paper patching. Would you be so kind to give me more details about that? How to do it?

Edit: Found some clips on YouTube. Will try this, definitely.

[MaryB]

I know the forum that hates boolits in an AR and that is what its name starts with... I have tried it, not 100% yet but I also haven't had enough time at the range for testing.

[bruce drake]

I shoot my Mihec 69gr sized at .225 with Hornady Gas Checks in both a 1-9" 223 Rem chambered AR15 and a 1-7" 5.56 with 23.5gr of IMR 4831 at 2200fps and 3" groups with iron sights at 100 yards
I shoot my LEE Bator 55gr mold sized at .225 with Hornady Gas Checks in my 1-9" 223 Rem chambered AR15 with 20gr of IMR 4895 at 2100fps with the same 3" groups at 100 yards.

The bullets are lubed with White Labels Lube's BAC Lube

Each upper is barreled with 20" barrels and use rifle length gas tubes and buffers.

I shoot NRA reduced course high-power matches with these loads and they are sufficient to stay within the black scoring rings at 100 and 200 yards.

Do these load recipes help?

Bruce

[jayjay1]

@excess:
Those boolits do have a GC, right?
Which GC´s are you using?

@excess and Bruce.
I always thought, that the boolits will get damaged in the cycling operation in an AR, that´s why I never thought about trying it.

Would you tell us, which alloy you are using and how hard that is?


Thanks for you infos so far!

[bruce drake]

standard clip-on Wheel weights so I would put the hardness around 11BHN.

[beezapilot]

Thanks for the input on loading data- I'll be trying them out. Thanks.

[Forgetful]

You might speed up your paper patching with a little rolling machine like this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41vPHgiP7NL.jpg

You could probably also use rolling papers to control your paper thickness, since they come in a variety of thicknesses.. and flavors..

[jayjay1]

Thanks a lot guys!

Wow, only 11BHN!
Bruce, are there no damages?

About the paper-thingy, what happens with the paper, when the bullets get seated, doesn´t it get ripped or something?
Amazing infos!

[Forgetful]

Thanks a lot guys!

Wow, only 11BHN!
Bruce, are there no damages?

About the paper-thingy, what happens with the paper, when the bullets get seated, doesn´t it get ripped or something?
Amazing infos!

You still should be lubing and sizing, after papering it up. Once you pass it through your sizing die, it's not going anywhere.

[just_shooter]

Any idea where to find about 70gr. mold? So far I found only NOE one (70 and 72gr.) but I don't like very much the tip. It's too wide I would prefer something a little bit sharper. Unfortunately can't find anything else in stock.

[ipijohn]

Any idea where to find about 70gr. mold? So far I found only NOE one (70 and 72gr.) but I don't like very much the tip. It's too wide I would prefer something a little bit sharper. Unfortunately can't find anything else in stock.

One of the reasons you don't see pointy 22 cal molds is that they are harder to cast than a more round profile. The points also don't survive well when fed through semi auto rifles.

[just_shooter]

The NOE 225-70 weighs 73gr with GC and feeds perfectly. A pointy boolit will be more easily damaged by cycling.

My concerns were about feeding (thought it's too wide), but If this bullet from NOE 225-70 mold feeds perfectly as you say this one will be.

[Doughty]

I am not really an AR type guy. I shot one quite a bit 40 some years ago, but after that never shot, much less owned one until recently. When my son returned from Afghanistan 2 years ago he bought an AR in .300 BO for him and an M&P 15 in 5.56 for me. Thank you. Put a small red-dot on it, shot a few rounds of surplus, loaded a few jacket rounds which shot fine, then put it away.

A few weeks ago, while looking for something else, I found some RCBS 55 grain cast bullets that had been cast 10 years ago for some shooting with a Ruger #3 in .223 Rem. I still had some Hornaday GCs and a .225 sizing die. I had been reading a lot of the threads here about shooting cast in an AR and thought, "What the heck, give it a try." I had some range pick up LC 11 cases of which I sized and swaged the primer pockets. The only powder that I had, that I thought might work, was some AA2520. I could find NO loading book information on using this powder with cast .22, so I cogitated for a bit and decided 18 grs might work. I had some old CCI magnum small rifle primers that I couldn't remember where or why I got them so they got the nod for this load.

So put it all together and go to the range. Bang bang bang. No failures to fire or function. Twenty five yard 5 round groups about quarter size, impacting low about an inch and a half. About dead on at fifty yards and again at 100. 2-3 inch groups at a hundred with the 4 MOA red-dot. Velocity was in the mid 1900s. Tried it again two weeks running. Same old thing. No leading. As clean as the surplus ammo.

I thought this was going to be a tedious challenge. Maybe beginners luck. Anyway, clean it up and back in the safe. Now back to what really lights my fire, Ruger single shots and Marlin lever actions. I did however order one of the on sale RCBS .22 molds and some more Hornaday GCs. Just in case.

[xacex]

Sounds encouraging. I almost got a long face. Could you give a recipe to success? Hardness, lube, GC, etc.
I am using a Mihec 311410 H/P mold. The boolits are powder coated, brass is converted LC, 17.4 grains H110 over a CCI 450 primer. I am using straight clip on wheel weights, but have gone so far as 50/50 with no issue. Gas checks are home made aluminum. Pushing close to 2000fps, and over what I could push jacketed without signs of pressure for a 125 grain bullet. Maintaining under 2" at 100 yards in 16" as well as 8.5" barrels consistently. This load for me shoots about the same as I do jacketed. The only bullet I have shot that has done better so far has been the Barnes black tips. Those shoot sub MOA, but are an expensive, premium bullet. As long as you use a gas check for supersonic use you will be fine with boolits in an AR. Good luck with the 223. I got tired of playing with those tiny boolits.

[jayjay1]

Yes, I know what you mean with this pin-sized boolits, I sometimes feel the same way.
:oops:

Which caliber are you shooting in your AR, .300 BO?

[just_shooter]

I almost cleared my mind what I need to do for successful and of the project. Now I'm on hunt for plain base bullet mold about 70gr. and appropriate lube. Any suggestions on these? Will Lee Liquid Alox do the job at 2300f/s?

[Moonie]

I almost cleared my mind what I need to do for successful end of the project. Now I'm on hunt for plain base bullet mold about 70gr. and appropriate lube. Any suggestions on these? Will Lee Liquid Alox do the job at 2300f/s?

You will need a gas check to get to that velocity successfully, not sure the Lee mule snot will be up to the challenge either, perhaps 45/45/10 would be.

[just_shooter]

Yes, sure. I'm gonna use GC, but made by me from soda cans with Pat Marlins' Checkmaker. Hope will do the job:?

[ipijohn]

I have been having good luck with home made gas checks and powder coat for lube/protection.

[just_shooter]

I have been having good luck with home made gas checks and powder coat for lube/protection.

.223?

[ipijohn]

.223?

Both .223 and 300 BO.

[just_shooter]

What velocity do you shoot .223?

[ipijohn]

What velocity do you shoot .223?


1950 fps, started out much slower (around 1700) but my AR would not lock back.

[armexman]

just_shooter, have you tried reading the stickies and using the search function?
Since this is your beginning foray into shooting and casting these two things will help you learn and answer the majority of your questions.
HTH

[just_shooter]

Thank you for the suggestion, armexman. As I said previously, I have many years of hand gun casting experience, but in rifle I'm newbie. Read a lot on this, learned a lot, but some subjects are a little bit controversial. So I have had just 2-3 questions trying to search some help instead of playing Columbus and discover America. Hope I didn't burden you with my ignorance.

Regards,
Simon.

EDIT: Searching engine of this forum is not the best I've seen that's why I may missed something. If so, my bad, won't argue on that. :)

[just_shooter]

Today I slugged my barel. It's .224. Do I have to stick to this value or better to go at .225 when sizing the cast boolits in search of accuracy and less lead foulings?

[dragon813gt]

Today I slugged my barel. It's .224. Do I have to stick to this value or better to go at .225 when sizing the cast boolits in search of accuracy and less lead foulings?

This line of questioning is why someone told you to read the stickies. This is a very basic question and it has the same answer as casting for handguns, larger than groove diameter. The answers you're seeking for the soda can gas checks on PB bullets don't exists because no molds exist for it. Get a custom mold cut or buy one for conventional gas checks and shoot them. These are the options at this time. At the velocities you shoot the AR at I see no reason not to use conventional gas checks. The cost of aluminium to make your own is very little and gets washed out. You will also have the tool to make them in less than a week compared to a potential long wait for the PB check maker.

[xacex]

Yes, I know what you mean with this pin-sized boolits, I sometimes feel the same way.
:oops:

Which caliber are you shooting in your AR, .300 BO?
Yup, 300 BO. I may play with the 5.56 again in the future since I have the mold, but for now I am having fun with the blackout and pushing them faster than I could with the 223 while maintaining any accuracy. I am to cheap at the moment, or to poor to buy a 1/12 twist barrel just for shooting cast 223 in an AR. Building a suppressor, and more form ones before spring of next year is taking up all of my expendable funds.

[jayjay1]

@xacex:
If I understand you correctly, you say it is necessary to a 1/12" barrel in an AR to shoot cast boolits!?

@dragon:
I would love to read a sticky about cast boolits in an semi-automatic AR, if I could find one.
Do you know some?