My Mould Kal Tool & Die for Pedersoli Gibbs

[Saltner]

Always with the spirit of experiments i am made another daring gift bullet mold of custom marketing is like a Miss Universe with fishnet stockings and miniskirt underarm.
This is a bullet mold nose pour molds adjustable to make patched bullets manufactured by KAL Tool & Die - Canada
122548
This a good shot
122550

[montana_charlie]

Nice shooting.
When did you receive your KAL mould?

CM

[zuke]

Very nice! How often can you group them like that?

[Saltner]

The mold i bought in May but had temporarily abandoned the experiments with the bullet patched because it gave me the best results of the New Postel i use.
I was stubborn to cast bullets with various percentages of tin (60,40, 30, 20, 16: 1) and loaded with heavy doses of powder.
I will continue the experiments in February because now the shooting range closes for the winter season.

[Keith Andersen]

I bought a mould like it used on E-Bay about three years ago or so. It looks very good but the parting line flashing are a

[montana_charlie]

I bought a mould like it used on E-Bay about three years ago or so. It looks very good but the parting line flashing are a b..ch
Possible remedies for that ...

To start, remove the handles and press the mould halves together.
Look into the cavity to find out if any light shines through.
If it does not, reinstall the handles and check that again.

If there is light with the handles and no light without the handles, there is some interference between the mould block(s) and the handles. An inspection should find it and a file should cure it.

If ther is light visible when the handles are removed:
Check the mould faces for any 'obstructions' to closing.
Check the alignment pins for excess protrusion.

If there is never any light:
Cast at a lower temperature.
Don't 'pressure cast'.

CM

[Keith Andersen]

Cm.

You might also suggest; learn to cast. Been told this also by the guy that made the mould. I read that others are having this problem. The only good thing with that mould was the handles. Very good handles!

I got the problem solved and I had Steve Brooks make one for me that is very good mould with no problems.

[powderburnerr]

I am glad you got the problem solved with brooks,,
kals mould was designed to cast with lead not lead tin alloys , lead is hard to cast with, these moulds cast lead good.finning is a result of casting too hot , too high of tin content , and pressure casting, sorry you had a bad time with yours , mine is great.

[Keith Andersen]

I am glad you got the problem solved with brooks,,
kals mould was designed to cast with lead not lead tin alloys , lead is hard to cast with, these moulds cast lead good.finning is a result of casting too hot , too high of tin content , and pressure casting, sorry you had a bad time with yours , mine is great.

Well not all of us want to shoot pure lead bullets. Alloyed bullets are more commonly used in black powder type cartridge rifles.
Yes it was a little tough getting the alignment pins out of the block. I left one pin in so the haves lined up and the dykem blue told the story.

[montana_charlie]

I am glad you got the problem solved with brooks,,
kals mould was designed to cast with lead not lead tin alloys , lead is hard to cast with, these moulds cast lead good.finning is a result of casting too hot , too high of tin content , and pressure casting, sorry you had a bad time with yours , mine is great.
When tin is added to lead, the melting temperature gets lower, so lead/tin alloy can be cast at a lower temperature than pure lead. By holding the temperature down any finning problem should disappear.

I have to say "should" because I do not get any finning with my KAL mould(s) even though I use alloys as rich as 16 to 1.

I did have a fight with the mould over poorly shaped bases.
During that 'contest' I had the alloy up to 800 and was pressure casting. That caused some 'tits' where alloy protruded into the vents a little. But those were too short to see, and could be scraped off with a fingernail.

I cured my base fillout problem without the high heat and high pressure, so now I just set the pot thermostat for 725 and use 'cadence' to keep all tempreatures in sync.

I have never tried any pure lead in a KAL mould ...

CM

[powderburnerr]

charlie , they will cast anything just like any other mould with a little practice , they were just made to cast easy with a high lead alloy,sounds like you got yours sorted out. good

[johnson1942]

i think every mold should be bought a couple of thousands over sized then the cast bullet is pushed through a push through resizeing die to the size you want. every bullet will be round and of the same size, its a simple way to fix creases seams and slightly different diam sizes. every one is a better caster than me and this is my way to make good bullets. just weigh them and put in same groups, recast those that are too far off.

[Saltner]

You're right, as precise a bullet is cast, it is always better to give a slight resizing to standardize not only that bullet but to make them all the same, what must weigh all the bullets and split them for weight eliminating the lighter ones, usually keep the bullets with a weight range of between 3 grains and use the lighter the first shot in order to dirty the barrel.

[Lead pot]

i think every mold should be bought a couple of thousands over sized then the cast bullet is pushed through a push through resizeing die to the size you want. every bullet will be round and of the same size, its a simple way to fix creases seams and slightly different diam sizes. every one is a better caster than me and this is my way to make good bullets. just weigh them and put in same groups, recast those that are too far off.


A shot bullet three thousands out of round will be round by the time the bullet clears the muzzle and probably in better shape then one pushed through a sizing die. :)

[country gent]

With the soft bullets used jn BPCR rifles and Black Powder wether sized or not bullets will swell to fit throat and lead of chamber so the actual "final sizing" is being done when the round is fired. This may even close fill some small voids inthe bullet from casting as the lead moves around under the pressure of firing it. I cast from 20-1 alloy and they are a soft bullet that casts well in my luman and brooks mold. Great fill out and good wieght consistency. The way I cast ( ladle 700* pot and a slightly slower pace) I get very good bullets. I use lyman 510 grn round nose, Lyman 535 grn postell ( mould is converted to nose pour now), a brooks adjustable Paper Patch in 45 caliber and Lyman 400 grn postell and Old west 400 grn Nasa bullet in 40 caliber, last is the lyman 335 grn 38 caliber. I believe the obtration is te sizing that is required more so. A sized bullet is easier to load into cases but on firing it changes due to elasticity and pressure. This is why bore riding PP works on firing the bullet swells into the rifling.

[Don McDowell]

A shot bullet three thousands out of round will be round by the time the bullet clears the muzzle and probably in better shape then one pushed through a sizing die. :)

I am in complete agreement with this.
In Farrow's book he told of running out of bullets for his Ballard while shooting a match in France. So in order to get enough rounds put together to finish the match he says he took his pocket knife and trimmed down the diameter or some of the bullets he borrowed from the guy that was in contention to win the match. He claims to have won that match, so when you think about how out of round a batch of bullets shaved off with a pocket knife would be and yet still be able to win a match, one has to wonder if we don't go a wee bit overboard about how round a bullet is.. And one also has to take into account , is the bore and the grooves of the rifle as perfectly round as the bullet coming out of the size die.

[LeRoy.Beans]

Then agin, it was Farrow telling this fable.

[Don McDowell]

History does tell us he won that match in France...
But be that as it may, when you can take a bullet that is .440 and send it rattling down a .450 bore with decent accuracy to 800 yds, one does have to give pause and thought to many things..

[LeRoy.Beans]

History does tell us he won that match in France...
a damn good shot, and a better BSer - well known for it.


But be that as it may, when you can take a bullet that is .440 and send it rattling down a .450 bore with decent accuracy to 800 yds, one does have to give pause and thought to many things..
Done that a lot have ya?

[Don McDowell]

On occasion, and you?

[LeRoy.Beans]

I call BS on that.

[Don McDowell]

I call BS on that.

On what?

[Lead Fred]

Been e-mailing KAL for months now trying to get mine on order.
Sure wish someone was there to answer back

[Don McDowell]

Pm Powderburner he may have what you want on hand.

[idahoron]

Always with the spirit of experiments i am made another daring gift bullet mold of custom marketing is like a Miss Universe with fishnet stockings and miniskirt underarm.
This is a bullet mold nose pour molds adjustable to make patched bullets manufactured by KAL Tool & Die - Canada
122548
This a good shot
122550


I want to try those. Is that a die that they pull off the shelf?

[Saltner]

Is just one in the picture :bigsmyl2:

[montana_charlie]

Been e-mailing KAL for months now trying to get mine on order.
Sure wish someone was there to answer back
Circulatory problems and resulting surgery laid him low back in August.
He has recovered enough to start puttering in the shop again, and looking at a rather intimidating backlog.

CM

[Yellowhouse]

I have a KAL mold pretty much identical except it throws a .434 tapered bullet. Finning was a problem until I really began to monitor temp and not let it get too hot, eliminated the "pressure" pour, and just slowed down a little. Actually I had more problems with an adjustable .40 pp mold from Brooks in that regard. But the same technique worked for it too. 20-1 and with 30-1 alloy.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In a book modestly entitled "How I became a Crack Shot". Mind you, he was. I am a long way from my copy, which I haven't opened in many years, but I think it is unlikely that a French match was at long range, and it is possible that a fairly inaccurate shot at the finish was enough to win.

He does, I remember, tell how the Germans went in for unscrupulous rule-bending, but the French were delighted to be beaten in style.

[Don McDowell]

He was out of ammunition and the Swiss wouldn't let him borrow a gun or ammo...
For those that might be interested in reading Farrows book, or better yet Wingates manual for rifle practice, they are as far away as your google browser look for them and others in the library.

[Gunlaker]

It is a really enjoyable book. Although I think he should have titled it differently. Maybe "I am a Crack Shot" :-).

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

"I am a Crack Pot",,,:p there fixed it for ya Chris... Yup I still think he stiffed the motel in Glendive, and the excuses he came up with for shooting that poor buff bull in the testicles....

[Gunlaker]

Ha:-)

I do like the book, but it doesn't say much about how he became a good shooter, just that he shot a lot. The last section on shooting advice to a new shooter was interesting I thought.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I for the most part was severely disappointed with the book, as it said but very little about the guns and loads he used. Nowhere near the useful information in it, that is in Perry's book or Wingates.

[Gunlaker]

Yeah, Perry's book is absolutely excellent. Except maybe the part about the eye colors :-). I'm glad Kenny made a bunch of us aware of it.

Which book is Wingate's I don't think I've heard of it.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

It's called the Manual for Rifle Practice. It's in the google library. George Wingate is the authors name.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Don.

[Saltner]

I'm curious to know how people in that direction patching the bullet. It seems to me that my barrel prefer the patch wrapped so that with the rotation of the projectile, the patch tightens to it.
This is a picture of the web that shows the direction of patching.
129182
instead this is the way the contrary, the patch could unroll with the rotation of the bullet
129183

[ResearchPress]

General George Wood Wingate is the author of "Manual for Rifle Practice". I have an original 6th Edition (1878) and there was an 7th in 1880 - I don't know if there were any further editions.

David

[Saltner]

Paul A. Matthews in his book The Paper Jacket explains why.
But i had no problems in the notch of the paper although it was wrapped so as not to unwrapped.
129191

[Don McDowell]

Saltner I roll the direction shown in your bottom picture. As to the patch coming unrolled, I don't think it's going to happen. There will be anywhere from 8000-18000 lbs psi pushing the patched bullet down the barrel, the bullet should be bumped up to fill the grooves thereby trapping the paper between the bullet and the barrel wall.

[ResearchPress]

Pictured below are two bullets from an original 19th century range box for muzzle loading in my collection. You can see the direction of the wrap.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/pics/wrappedbullets.jpg

David

[montana_charlie]

Pictured below are two bullets from an original 19th century range box for muzzle loading in my collection. You can see the direction of the wrap.

Being intended for a muzzleloader, the direction of the wrap may not matter, but what was the direction of twist in the rifle that those bullets were to be fired in?




I'm curious to know how people in that direction patching the bullet. It seems to me that my barrel prefer the patch wrapped so that with the rotation of the projectile, the patch tightens to it.
To start with, I patch to groove diameter. If you patch to bore diameter, I would be inclined to believe that direction of wrap is a non-issue in a rifle with modern (deep) rifling.

But, my bullets don't sit up within the rifled bore while waiting to be fired. Since they must pass through the leade just like a jacketed bullet would, they are subject to damage from the patch 'crumpling backward' if not wrapped in a direction that tightens it as it hits the lands.

In support of my theory, I started this thread, sometime back.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?70789-Direction-of-wrap

Wrapping counterclockwise (like your upper picture) permanently cured the problem for me.

CM

[Don McDowell]

David do you have any info on that bottom bullet? It looks an awful lot like the "standard" Buffalo Arms bullet style.

[Lead pot]

Maybe the wrapper was left handed. :) I'm right handed and my patch is the opposite of those :)

[Gunlaker]

They sure do Don. My 500gr Creedmoor bullets look exactly the same. Except that they are newer. My .45-70 never liked them, but strangely they are very accurate in my fast twist .45-90.

Oops. I should have noticed that you were talking about the bottom bullet. Mine look exactly like the top bullet. Mostly shank and a short nose.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I have their "creedmoor" bullet in a 40 cal. But the ones I'm talking about look about exactly like the bottom one. I don't know the 45 cal numbers, but the one I asked them to make in 44 is the 434470.
I believe Leadpot had a hand in them adopting that style of bullet....

[Lead pot]

Chris I have their "creedmoor" bullet in a 40 cal. But the ones I'm talking about look about exactly like the bottom one. I don't know the 45 cal numbers, but the one I asked them to make in 44 is the 434470.
I believe Leadpot had a hand in them adopting that style of bullet....

Yes Dave, Jim and I spent some time on the phone when they started making moulds. DAve sent me one of the first 2 hole guide pin moulds and later a three pin.
This is the first bullet, and it is a good one.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0223-2.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_0223-2.jpg.html)

[Don McDowell]

Yes that's a good bullet.

[ResearchPress]

That last bullet looks very similar to an original Metford bullet.

Besides the muzzle loading bullets I pictured, I have an original unfired Gibbs No. 1 and a Westley Richards No. 2 cartridge, each loaded with paper patched bullets. All the bullets are wrapped in the same direction as those shown in the above picture.

Of those bullets shown above the top one is .45 and a cylindrical Whitworth bullet with a deep thick walled base cavity. It would have been sold by Whitworth, Eley and maybe others. The lower bullet is .46 and for a Gibbs-Metford and has a shallow and wide dished base cavity.

I'll get some pictures and post more, but will have to wait for some daylight...

David

[Lead pot]

I had a swage die made for a .45 Metford bullet that is a very close copy of it and it is a fine shooter out to 1200 yards.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1641.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1641.jpg.html)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

David do you have any info on that bottom bullet? It looks an awful lot like the "standard" Buffalo Arms bullet style.

I suppose the chronology means that the standard Buffalo Arms bullet looks a lot like it.

In theory the patch wound so that it tends to be unloosened by the bullet means that it will be shed quickly and consistently on exiting the muzzle. I think the centrifugal force, which some some appreciable fraction of that which can explode a jacketed bullet, means that the bullet will shed a paper patch wrapped in either direction.

I don't believe any patch can be unwound in the bore. An excessively hard bullet patched up only to land diameter might just possibly part company with its patch in the bore. But I think that is more likely just a question of the bullet being forced forward out of the patch.

There was a short-lived system in the days of lead-bullet scheutzen shooting, whereby a patch of exactly π times the neck diameter was rolled into an edge-to-edge tube, and placed in the chamber with a special applicator mandrel. The bullet was then inserted into the paper-lined chamber, and, I assume, the paper pressed down into a tail behind the bullet base. The idea was to make the bullet as concentric as possible in the bore. That certainly stayed on the bullet all the way down the bore, so I suppose just about anything would.he right width to fit the

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I had a swage die made for a .45 Metford bullet that is a very close copy of it and it is a fine shooter out to 1200 yards.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1641.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1641.jpg.html)


That is an extremely bullet-shaped bullet. Somebody has to do it!

[Saltner]

I think it's very interesting this system patching with the false muzzle.
What do you think?
Which method is better?
129485 129486

[Gunlaker]

I suspect that the cross patch system is superior, but don't know as I don't own one. One day I will though. Mr. Niedner also used an interesting system ( shown in Ned Roberts book ) which utilized a chase patch like setup, but with the base folded over. Dry patched nd muzzle loaded. The rifle and tools were recently sold at auction.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I think it's very interesting this system patching with the false muzzle.
What do you think?
Which method is better?
129485 129486

I would imagine when shooting patched in muzzleloading/schuetzen type events the cross patched may hold a slight advantage. But when shooting a cartridge I believe the rolled patches have the advantage.
We've found out/rediscovered that when you patch further up the bullets sides and on to the ogive you will need a few more minutes of elevation , than you do when patching shorter, and using something like the "Hyde based" patch. Also when using the harder alloy's as described as early as 1875 in Remingtons Catalog accuracy maintains better especially at distance.
The cross patch system provides what looks to be a more even layer of the patch across the base which would be a definet accuracy advantage, but it seems it would take a bit of careful measuring , trial and error to get the length of the patch right so it doesn't bug the ogive and nose of the bullet to much.

[ResearchPress]

Took some more pictures of some 19th Century bullets and ammunition.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/pics/bullets1.JPG
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/pics/bullets2.JPG

From left: the first two are .45 Whitworth bullets as sold by Whitworth, Eley and maybe others. The central bullet is .46 and for a Gibbs-Metford. These all come from the same riflemans range box from the muzzle-loading era. The two bullets on the right are also Metford and from a later (breech-loading) period.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/pics/cartridge1.JPG
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/pics/cartridge2.JPG

The leftmost cartridge (from the headstamp) is Westley Richards No. 2 Musket. The two on the right are Gibbs No. 1.

All the paper patched bullets are wrapped in the same direction.

David

[Saltner]

I would imagine when shooting patched in muzzleloading/schuetzen type events the cross patched may hold a slight advantage. But when shooting a cartridge I believe the rolled patches have the advantage.
We've found out/rediscovered that when you patch further up the bullets sides and on to the ogive you will need a few more minutes of elevation , than you do when patching shorter, and using something like the "Hyde based" patch. Also when using the harder alloy's as described as early as 1875 in Remingtons Catalog accuracy maintains better especially at distance.
The cross patch system provides what looks to be a more even layer of the patch across the base which would be a definet accuracy advantage, but it seems it would take a bit of careful measuring , trial and error to get the length of the patch right so it doesn't bug the ogive and nose of the bullet to much.

Even in my opinion are the best bullets with the rolled paper, the cross could be comfortable on the shooting range, costs less time, but the strips have to be perfect!

[Don McDowell]

Thanks David for the pictures and descriptions.

[Lead pot]

That is an extremely bullet-shaped bullet. Somebody has to do it!

It also is an extremely good shooting bullet. It makes a extremely good ringing sound on the 1K iron :)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think the cross patch system would totally eliminate irregular detachment of the patch on exiting the muzzle. Whether that matters depends on how often that actually happens with a rolled patch. I would think very seldom if it is properly done. It is arguable, I suppose, that a single layer of paper will locate the bullet more centrally in the bore than a double layer.

[Don McDowell]

Well actually when you've got a proper rolled on patch of paper that isn't to thick, when the bullet exits the barrel all there is of the patch is basically small strips of confetti. The only "strip" of paper that's left might be what was folded over the base.

[Lead pot]

If you look at this high speed video you will see exactly what a patched bullet does after it leaves the barrel. go down th the BPSU shot and put it on full screen and set the resolution to HD http://www.svartkrutt.net/news/nh_vis.php?id=21 as soon as the bullet shows up at the muzzle pause it and do this several times as the bullet moves across the screen. Very interesting.

[ryan28]

There appears to be a perfect seal there too, some others I have seen seen show smoke before the bullet exits, although they might have been grease groove.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Try handling those little strips of paper on a windy day. No fun and not a real option on the windy dusty, ranges of Raton, Phoenix.

KW

[Lead pot]

I don't have a front stuffer with a falls muzzle, but I do shoot at our local matches with my Hawken and flint southern mountain rifle against guys that use cross patches in their rifles. They put a pinhead drop of superglue in the center of their cross patches at home and they say that it makes handling them much easier at the range. One guy has a second plate that covers the patch so the wind don't blow it around and it also serves as a trim guide for cutting his long strips he uses.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Well I do have front stuffers with false muzzles and the cap you mention, and I still maintain the challenge to deal with the thin paper strips in very windy conditions. Have been shooting slug guns for about 4-1/2 years.

I find it of interest, when someone offers options on something they have never done, using the top cap to cut the patches for length would way to short on my rifle's bullet.

My 40 is very accurate at 200 yards, but the winds play hell with it at 300. I shot my first perfect score last year at Phoenix at 100 yards. 100-4x it was good enough for 3rd place. 100-8x took top honors.

KW

[Lead pot]

Relax Kenny.

I just said what I see the locals do and it works for them. The top plate they use for cutting the long strips is made the diameter they need to patch their bullet. They use a straight razor and draw it up from the underside of the plate. I don't shoot the slug guns but that don't mean that I cant see what works for those that use them.

Kurt

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt,
i am relaxed, I shared actual experience, dealing with with that blows hard enough to blow a whole tin of patches off ones slug gun loading bench, you shared an opinion, which I disagree with based on actual experience, get over it, your talking about something you have never personally done.
KW

[montana_charlie]

I don't have a front stuffer with a falls muzzle, but I do shoot at our local matches ... against guys that use cross patches in their rifles.
One guy has a second plate that covers the patch so the wind don't blow it around and it also serves as a trim guide for cutting his long strips he uses.
I find it of interest, when someone offers options [opinions?] on something they have never done, using the top cap to cut the patches for length would way to short on my rifle's bullet.
Relax Kenny.
I just said what I see the locals do and it works for them. The top plate they use for cutting the long strips is made the diameter they need to patch their bullet.Kurt,
i am relaxed, I shared actual experience, dealing with with [wind?] that blows hard enough to blow a whole tin of patches off ones slug gun loading bench, you shared an opinion, which I disagree with based on actual experience, get over it, your talking about something you have never personally done.
Actually, it appears that Kurt has merely described something that he has personally observed, something that Wasserburger has not done, or even heard of.

Wasserburger is clear that he feels Kurt should not opine on something he has not actually experienced, but Wasserburger is not at all shy about expressing his opinion on a practice that he has not "personally done"... or even seen being done.

Considering the force with which Wasserburger assails Kurt for entertaining us with his observations, I suspect he may be the actual source of that big wind which blows across his bench.

CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Charlie, if you think I am using force, then your hide has got pretty thin. Upside you at least spelled my name right this time. That is progress. Thanks for doing all that work cutting pasting ect. And interjecting on cross patching, I guess you do a lot of cross patching with a false muzzle too? Or was it a chance to jump in and be your as usual charming self? So what sage advice do you offer? Oh and just for record the wind last year at Phonenix had little to do with my wind, one day we never got a shot off due to the wind snapping the legs off the target backstops.

KW

PS I await another one of your wonderful windy replys, trust me the disregard you hold me, no where equals mine for you.

[Lead pot]

Come on now Kenny. This not called for. If my post bothers you that much I can delete it.

Kurt

[montana_charlie]

Or was it a chance to jump in and be your as usual charming self?
Yep, that was pretty much it. Thought I would 'draw fire' a little to take some heat off of Kurt.


PS ... trust me the disregard you hold me, no where equals mine for you.
I have been told I am not alone ...

CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Nor am I Charle, when it comes to you.

Kurt you post does not offend me, I disagree with what you mentioned, that's all. And I stated as such, trying to handle those thin strips of paper is very difficult in real windy conditions, been there, to get from your tin to the false muzzle then keep them in place plus put the retaining cap you mentioned on and not lose those patches is difficult.

Chuck jumps in self admits to take some imagined Heat shows he is just looking for a fight. True colors never shown.

KW

[SharpsShooter]

Really K. Dubyah... You want to start an argument over strips of paper blowing in the wind??? Really unbelievable!

To the other gentleman perusing this thread, I do apologize. This is an interesting thread with a lot of good input. Do not let one member spoiled with his own opinion of himself mute your discussion.

The pictures and description were great by the way.

SS

[Gunlaker]

To change the subject a bit, Kenny, how does that cross patched rifle compare with your cartridge guns at 200 yds or 40 rods?

Thanks,

Chris.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Not having the right to express an opinion on people who practiced perversions must be a strain. I wonder if there is any reason not to keep the patches as one long strip of paper with short ones pasted across it at the correct intervals, and tear them off one at a time? You could even play the sneaky trick of having a wide false muzzle, to tear them off against the sharp edge. Still, I must admit that I have never done it.

[Saltner]

But what i posted !!! [smilie=b::groner:
I could not imagine that the tred to warm up so much.
Attention friends, with this heat is the patches that the strips crosswise burn. :mrgreen:
As we say to me all goes into a cow to say the professional women of the street.:bigsmyl2:
However i am puzzled use the strips to the open field of fire with the wind, but you can prepare already glued to facilitate the loading operation.
I want to build a false muzzle and try my Gibbs, but i'll have to superimpose 4 strips to reach the exact sizing.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I simply stated I disagred with Kurt, based on my own personal experienced with Slug gun shooting with Triditional Cross patching,.
Chris, they are very accurate, but on par with my world record pp group shot in the 5@200.
hope that answers your question.
KW

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Kenny.

Chris.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Salt you should be able to do it with two patches crossed giving 4 sides. However I would also suggest a Chase patch which is used by a good many muzzle loading Slug guns, as another option. Just A thought.
KW.

[Huvius]

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/pics/cartridge1.JPG
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/pics/cartridge2.JPG

The leftmost cartridge (from the headstamp) is Westley Richards No. 2 Musket. The two on the right are Gibbs No. 1.


David

David, is the copper plated bullet the same size as the PP bullets?
I suspect my Gibbs is supposed to use the plated one since it is such a late 461 although it is sighted for the 360gr bullet.
I am just wondering if the plating is thin and pliable enough to allow the bullet to bump up as a patched one will.

[Bent Ramrod]

:hijack: Just an aside. Glad to see you are back and posting again, Kenny. Hope your recovery is proceeding on schedule.

[ResearchPress]

The copper jacketed bullet appears close to the PP in size. c1895 Gibbs and Fremantle were experimenting with such .46 bullets in 540-570 grains, with smokeless powders. In 1896 though the NRA changed its rules for 'Any rifle' to be of a maximum bore of .315, rendering continuance with the larger calibre obselete for match rifle shooting and effectively bringing an end to the black powder match rifle.

David

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bent,

thanks, recovery is very slow, I still can not walk, or at least they won't let me yet, a lot of nerve damage along with the trauma of the shattered leg. I did not lose the leg or get frost bite in the 2 hrs laying in -14 deg weather, it may of actually helped. Still can not figure out how it only got the leg and not killed me, lucky is all I can say.

KW

[Kenny Wasserburger]

David, so in 1896 that killed BP shooting in the UK. I know Foulke was the last winner with BP in the U.S.

KW

[Lead Fred]

Waiting on mine to come from KAL, sure hope it works this good for me

[ResearchPress]

Kenny, yes the 1896 rule change brought about what we'd probaly regard as the 'golden era of black powder'... times were changing though and as noted some had been experimenting with smokeless powders in the .45 cal rifles. By then as well the military rifles had changed and .315 was regarded by the NRA as the largets practicable military calibre.

David

[Huvius]

David,
Is there any information out there on the thickness of the copper "jacket"?
Sure would be a fun project to copper plate some boolits of the proper shape and weight.
For now, I will stick with paper patched. Sure makes a Metford barrel look purty.

[ResearchPress]

Can't find anything on the coppper jacket, but the bullets were 94% lead : 3% antimony : 3% tin.

David

[45bpcr]

Saltner,

I also shoot a Gibbs and I'm curious, what type of rear sight are you using? Mine still wears the Pedersoli sight it came with but I'm thinking of changing to one of Lee Shavers rear sights as the "tunnel" through the eye cup is awfully long and requires adjustment of the staff angle as ranges increase to get a clear sight picture.

Craig

[Saltner]

I have the original diopter Pedersoli, i know that according to the distance should be adjusted the tilt of the diopter, but i shoot only 110-220 yards and did not have to adjust anything. Maybe 550 you should adjust the inclination to see better.

[OuchHot!]

Please ignore if this is too far off topic. What paper do you folks prefer? I used to use 100% rag but that seems all gone. I still try to use 25% but don't actually know if it matters. Not enough real shooting experience with newer papers to know.

[ResearchPress]

I also shoot a Gibbs and I'm curious, what type of rear sight are you using?
I've used my Ped. Gibbs out to 1200 yards and not experienced any problems with the original sight supplied with the rifle (I have twice won our clubs 30 shot 1,000 yard match with this set up). www.longrangerifles.co.uk (http://www.longrangerifles.co.uk)

David

[Lead pot]

I have a KAL Gibbs mould. I use it for a core mould to swage these Gibbs bullets for the .44-77 and the .44-90bn 2-5/8.
I just swaged the jacketed bullet using a .022 jacket wall. pretty good match to the one above. The Gibbs shoots quite well at the midrange matches as well as the 1000 yard gong matches. It's a good bullet.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_2265_zpslvcbjxh5.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_2265_zpslvcbjxh5.jpg.html)

[ronpardue]

To what dimension do you size your bullets to when you using paper wrap??? What size do you size your bullets to when just using lubed bullets??

[BrentD]

I size my bullets to .450-.451 for ppb.

Lubed bullets? Whatever for?

[Chill Wills]

For my Pedersoli Gibbs I get a good fit - not too tight but enough with patched bullets wrapped to about .449" I say about because mic'ing paper wrapped bullets is an exercise in soft touch v a little squeeze - subjective it is.
A good fit with GG bullets in my Gibbs IS .449"

Another rifle barrel may need something different. However, I think Pedersoli held specs. close to this. I used provide Joe Hepsworth (for his mail order catalog sales) with ready to shoot bullets for this model rifle and he nor I ever heard they did not work.

The old British rifles were classically larger at 0.451" but not in all rifles. Best is what you find works.

[BrentD]

Every Pedersoli I have played with had a very tight bore. My Gibbs came with a .448 sizing die and needed it. It is definitely some that has to be fitted for each rifle.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

I know a husband and wife that both shoot their own pedersoli gibbs, and need a differend diameter bullet for each rifle.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Lead pot]

I think the variances come from reground reamers from over use :veryconfu [smilie=f:

Y'all have a Happy New Year.

[Saltner]

Some tests done because desperation in finding a compromise to shoot the PP that are somewhat mangy
6 shoots at 110 yards with the best damn flyer
257269

Could be good but finished powder, however, from the previous not having lubricated the patch barrel is dirty more
257270

An alternative to the use 1,5F 2F which has performed remarkably well
Note that although the particle size is different, there is practically no difference in speed
257271

Decreasing the dose widens
257272

Conclusion: I stubbornly use boots on 65-70 max 80 but I found that for PP it takes so GASSSSSSSSS

[Gunlaker]

Your muzzle velocity consistency looks good!Chris.

[heelerau]

David, I am ver interested in having a mould made up for the hollow based whitworth bullet on the left had side of your photos. I found heaps of these in unfired condition as a kid on the sheep station my late father managed. I remember they bases being quite deep and the skirts thick. There were no base plugs. I think sever hundred paper cartridges had been dumped on the edge of the creek, and I just stumbled upon the bullets by accident at the age of 10 or 12 . Unfortunately none have survived in my possession to date. I reckon it might be a really good bullet to try in my 1st gen PH Volunteer .451, hence the interest

Kind regards

Gordon

[ResearchPress]

A couple of people I know made moulds for similar bullets a few years back and had/have great results from it in Whitworth rifles.

David

[martinibelgian]

Pure lead and 100grs of 2Fg? That bullet must upset like putty... I would go for a harder alloy. Then again, I'm not a ML shooter - but my bore-dia. PP bullets in my no.2 musket are 1:16 alloy, and shot over 90 grs of Swiss no.4 (1 1/2Fg) take the rifling, and shoot quite well... No need for pure lead IMO. Also - again with my breechloader and bore-dia. PP bullets - I've found it needs a pretty thick wad to perform best, probqbly helps in avoiding gas cutting of the bullet.

[Saltner]

It's been a long time since I updated my results, since then I've always used 100 grains of 1,5 F Swiss.
The nipples thank you :shock:

110 yards
https://i.ibb.co/n3LyZsQ/100.jpg

[Saltner]

220 yards
257279

[Saltner]

550 yards
257278

[Randy Bohannon]

Those Gibbs rifles didn’t set world records for good reason. They will shoot and shoot well , 89-100 grs of Swiss 1.5 Fg was always accurate in mine .It even shot sized down Paul Jones 540 gr. .458” Creedmoor bullets really well. Those Gibbs rifles have barrels made from Mauser steel, rare expensive steel developed by the Germans in the 1930’s to make guns. Not used in America for guns anyway we’re happy with good steel but those Gibbs barrels are special.