What happened this time?

[roadie]

So, I got back from work late last night and see that the "Testing the 30XCB" thread is shutdown. I looked through it and didn't see anything I thought would warrant that. Sure, there's thread drift, but if thread drift is cause for killing a thread, there would be very few threads anywhere. There was also some potentially nasty crud being stirred up, but that was nipped in the bud.

That thread was bringing out a lot of good stuff and I'm sure it has a big following. Just cause a lot of people don't post, doesn't mean they're not interested.

What happened?

[btroj]

Yep, integrity was mentioned. Gee, that had never happened before.

Mike showed the real value of any groups posted, discuss it with him.

[roadie]

You're right, there was just a bunch of irrelevant cr@p being thrown back and forth, and it wasn't furthering the cause. I had hoped that in the temporary absence of my XCB rifle, others would actually have filled the void and posted some shooting. Only Larry did so (he posted some amazing results), but the thread nevertheless spiraled downward.

When I have data to post I will do so, possibly in the HV thread or in the original XCB thread. However since some very busy posters now feel that posting groups is worthless, to the point of bringing up personal integrity, time will tell what will eventually end up on this site.




I don't think that anyone feels posting groups to be worthless, if anyone does, I would sure question their motives. It's great to see good groups posted, (and somewhat rare) and I commend you on putting the work in and posting the results as you did.

As to the integrity crud, I really didn't see that anyone was questioning yours....others, yes, but that seems to be a longstanding tradition with this bunch. I really believe this, and threads like it, are tainted from the get go with personal issues that go back years. Guys get their noses out of joint and look only to belittle and antagonize. There are some humongous egos in it too.

Regardless, I would like to see it continue, rather than be buried. Possibly as Love Life suggested, the irrelevant and integrity crud could be deleted and the thread continue. I personally would like to see it overlooked by an impartial moderator who would keep it on track. I don't see it working any other way, this type of thread seems to spiral into oblivion very quickly.

Anyway, thanks for the effort you've put into it , it is appreciated.

[btroj]

I want to keep a thread on track discussing HV shooting and what needs to be done to make it happen in an accurate manner. What bullet mould, alloy, lube, powder, etc works and when/why.

What derails these discussions every time is any talk of barrel twist and what is "best".

Lets discuss the rifle you own, not what it "should" be.

[roadie]

I want to keep a thread on track discussing HV shooting and what needs to be done to make it happen in an accurate manner. What bullet mould, alloy, lube, powder, etc works and when/why.

What derails these discussions every time is any talk of barrel twist and what is "best".

Lets discuss the rifle you own, not what it "should" be.


I agree, the problem though is who is the intended recipients ? As you say, it should be about the common rifles in everyone's cabinet, standard twists, common loading techniques, etc:....but will the common stuff work?

I'm seeing that there seems to be more to it than just getting a special mold cut, the long thought hard alloy might be counterproductive...a softer alloy that will deform the way we need it to might be a part of the solution.

If it's gonna take a special twist, a custom barrel, a special mold and all the related expensive gunsmithing work to pull it off, then it doesn't really benefit a lot of people. It then becomes more of a personal thing to feed egos....them things are already big enough, I think. Granted, this isn't the case with everyone involved.....just some.

And the other thing which seems to be widely overlooked is that what works for one rifle doesn't always work for another....even identical rifles.

[cbrick]

I don't think twist will be an issue given that within this test group there are 10" 12" 14" and soon 16" twist barrels. My personal thought is that it will be fascinating to see and compare differences including the loads used in different twist barrels. That is it will be fascinating if we can get there without getting the thread locked. Yet again.

So who closed the last thread and why?

Rick

[geargnasher]

Deleted

[geargnasher]

Deleted

[btroj]

How is the 1917 looking?

[stephen m weiss]

Just a quick question, what is the propose failure mode when a cast bullet exceeds the rpm limit? Rotational stress is a pretty simple analysis. It's a little more interesting what happens if it yields and starts coming apart, like how much does the rpm drop as the diameter increases and how does this then affect the stress state.

Are we sure that RPM effects are not simply one more source of stress on the rifling-driving band high stress location? Sure the energy associated with spinning the bullet is only a half percent or so of the translational energy, but it is the rifling whose primary purpose is to impart spin that are also the ONLY guiding bearing surface. So when there is bearing surface failure on the lands, how do you determine from test what caused it, the spin or the bearing speed?

This was a constant source of conflict when I solved bearing problems in industry. My aproach that worked most often was to put as much theory to practice as was possible.

If we find that the stress from spinning itself is 1 part per million of the stress due to offcenter pressure loading, is it safe to simply solve either the offcenter geometry, the pressure, or the material properties? To me, I expect the EXACT nature of the bearing lands to be of much greater significance compared to the spin rate. The spin has so little energy to it. But.. thats just a guess. Without actually running the stress analysis, I would never argue the issue.

I will say that when an engineering group had to develop bearings for 2000 inch per second electrodynamic vibration equipment.. the old bearings blew out and we had to use pressurized oil bronze bearings. I did some long life bearing design for medical stuff. I put together some wear energy formulations to use for bearing material selection. The same laws apply here.. when I get around to it, I will post an in barrel stress analysis. I have done half so far.. It's enlightening.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Well, the question I've never heard an answer to regarding rpm is why this "rule" doesn't seem to apply to paper patching?
I personally don't agree with the theory, but I'm here to learn, not argue, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

[Love Life]

Well, the question I've never heard an answer to regarding rpm is why this "rule" doesn't seem to apply to paper patching?
I personally don't agree with the theory, but I'm here to learn, not argue, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

I honestly think that as speed goes up, the rifling becomes the culprit for hurting our lovingly cast boolits. That knife edge just cutting. The paper would protect it in the same way a copper jacket does.

I have absolutely no way to prove this, just my thought. I tried to prove it out with a poly rifled barrel, but couldn't. It seems the walthers and Schneiders are not "true poly" like a Glock barrel...

[cbrick]

Having given the subject careful study and analysis I have come to the conclusion that this thread is a "Special Project". It therefore fits this forum perfectly. :shock:

Rick

[btroj]

Malls are safe thanks to my presence. No food court is left unguarded, no pet store left unpatrolled, no hot mom left unflirted with.

Thank you for your service

[leeggen]

Guys the high velocity thread was bring up alot of ideas and thoughts about how to go fast with cast. Made me start thinking of a few things I was not do and what I needed to look ahead to for going fast. It didn't matter what rifle was being used cause each one is pretty unieq to themselves. Just wish we could have new data everyday but there has to be time for our jobs and family. So as soon as the delays in information started then the drift started. To bad, now I will have to try alot of things that if others had failed already then I might not have to waist time going thru it. Maybe someone will start a chat where this discussion can cont' but by invitaition only,comes to mind. I know some will have to poke fun at others and on the net it can be taken wrong real fast like. I don't care if you disagree with each other but the calling out and finger pointing needs to be done somewhere else. I want to learn "How Can I Make A Boolit Go Fast"
We need to pool imfor. and ideas to get there. So now what do we do to get back to the fast track?
CD

[btroj]

Well, it is awful cold here for decent group shooting. I don't care to sit for an hour at the bench in 25 degree weather. Today it almost got to 50 but it was windy as hell. Not group shooting weather.

I can't post groups I haven't shot! Work, deer season, weather, and a lathe got in the way of more shooting. I barely found time to get a rifle sighted in for deer.

This isn't someing I ever considered a short term proposition. It might take years for me to figure it all out. Look at the lube quest, it has been over 2 years and nothing is finalized.

Why the rush? It will happen in time. Maybe if I lived in a warmer climate and was retired?

[cbrick]

Maybe if I lived in a warmer climate and was retired?

You'll have to take my word for it but . . . . . .

Both are wonderful! :mrgreen:

Rick

[cbrick]

Didn't you actually move to a colder climate? But less inhabited by leeches, liars, and other low life.

Why yes, I did but . . .

Not nearly as cold for nearly as long or nearly as windy or nearly as much snow as it is for you. :mrgreen: Just a bit of each for me.

Rick

[dtknowles]

Well, it is awful cold here for decent group shooting. I don't care to sit for an hour at the bench in 25 degree weather. Today it almost got to 50 but it was windy as hell. Not group shooting weather.

I can't post groups I haven't shot! Work, deer season, weather, and a lathe got in the way of more shooting. I barely found time to get a rifle sighted in for deer.

This isn't someing I ever considered a short term proposition. It might take years for me to figure it all out. Look at the lube quest, it has been over 2 years and nothing is finalized.

Why the rush? It will happen in time. Maybe if I lived in a warmer climate and was retired?

Shot three special test groups today, the results have my head spinning. Think I may have shot them too fast.

Tim

[btroj]

Shot three special test groups today, the results have my head spinning. Think I may have shot them too fast.

Tim

That is pretty well where I am. I have lots of ideas but it will be a bit before I can test them.

Dare I ask what you shot?

[roadie]

Guys the high velocity thread was bring up alot of ideas and thoughts about how to go fast with cast. Made me start thinking of a few things I was not do and what I needed to look ahead to for going fast. It didn't matter what rifle was being used cause each one is pretty unieq to themselves. Just wish we could have new data everyday but there has to be time for our jobs and family. So as soon as the delays in information started then the drift started. To bad, now I will have to try alot of things that if others had failed already then I might not have to waist time going thru it. Maybe someone will start a chat where this discussion can cont' but by invitaition only,comes to mind. I know some will have to poke fun at others and on the net it can be taken wrong real fast like. I don't care if you disagree with each other but the calling out and finger pointing needs to be done somewhere else. I want to learn "How Can I Make A Boolit Go Fast"
We need to pool imfor. and ideas to get there. So now what do we do to get back to the fast track?
CD


Very well said.

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that shooting high velocity cast, with good accuracy in common rifles, is gonna happen overnight. It could well take years, though some claim to be doing it now.

I personally don't care when btroj does his tests, it's not like he, or most people, can just drop everything else in life and jump on it. There are other concerns that demand time.

I would much rather all the info be available in one stickied thread, rather than in a dozen scattered all over the place. And considering how much controversy surrounds this subject, I don't understand why it hasn't been set up so it's just one thread, well moderated and crud kept out of it.....so it goes weeks or months with little input, so what, at least it's easy to find.

Okay....two stickied threads....each "side" can present it's case.

[dtknowles]

That is pretty well where I am. I have lots of ideas but it will be a bit before I can test them.

Dare I ask what you shot?

I had 18 near perfect (weight sorted to +/- .1) 121 grain Loverlin bullets sized to .311, 2 grooves lubed with MML+.

Loaded in 30BR cases formed from WW 300 Savage brass. Powder charge was 34 Grains of BLC2. During bullet seating three were set aside because they seemed to have low neck tension. The brass is just decapped and reprimed. No sizing.

It was gusty with little calm at the range. My wind flags are just bamboo sticks with plastic streamers. I fired two of the low neck tension rounds to check the sights and fowl the bore. Sights were close enough so I move to a corner bull and fired a five shot group. The rifle is a glued in sleaved Rem 600. Used a rear sand bag and a cast iron front rest with elevation adjustment and windage (I don't use).

The first group starts as the same spot relative to the bull as the second fowler. One o clock two inches high. The next 4 shots form a dotted line to the right for about an inch and three quarters. The total vertical is less than a quarter inch. I am thinking awesome, a little more care with the wind flags and I am going to nail me a tiny group. I move to the upper right corner bull and start the second group. (oh, I adjusted the elevation knob, did not count the target lines carefully). First shot, carefully picking a calm, goes into the target at 6 o clock, I am thinking bad things but I keep the same point of aim and fire the second shot and it too, is at 6 o clock but slightly higher) (must have over corrected the elevation. Feeling good two more shots go in at 6 o clock, none touching but a nice little square. The final shot, bad words, it is at 12 o clock, opening the sub MOA group up to over two. I have rounds for another group and a sighter. I move to the lower left corner bull and the first shot is 8 o clock. Next shot is back at 6, another at 10, another back at 6 cutting deep into the whole there. Last shot is at 7 next to the bull, another two inch group. I was so disappointed I did not fire the remaining round, forgot all about it, I guess I saved a primer.

Tim

[btroj]

Tim, look for patterns. That is a big thing Run taught me. Is it always a certain shot number that goes out? I need to pay more attention to that, maybe start taking a small target to mark as I fire each shot.

Sounds like a sweet rifle.

[cbrick]

Tim, what barrel length? Velocity? Have you had success with BL-C in the past? Just wondering about muzzle pressure with that powder.

Rick

[dtknowles]

Short barrel, fastish powder, no more bullets. No sure the best bullet design. Wonder about the lube. Might be sized a thou to large.


Tim

[geargnasher]

Loverin bullet, perhaps a Lyman model with overly-skinny bearing bands? What's the seasoned condition of the barrel, and what lube?

Back to Stephen W.'s post way back, he is correct that translational energy on the lands due to torque is around half a percent, give or take depending on bullet radius and rifling twist. I've calculated that myself several times in several guns using the simple formula developed by Dr. Mann. What I kept coming up with was the pressure itself being less than the yield strength of typical alloys, but that it was possible to exceed the strength fairly easily, as in shooting pure lead at 1800 fps in a ten-twist, four-groove .30 caliber. What is NOT explained is abrasion damage of the lands. Several of us think this happens SOMETIMES and is definitely a possible failure point. Linotype is notorious for being sensitive to abrasion, which may be exacerbated by normal or fast twist rates. I'm beginning to think that tin in the alloy makes it more sensitive to abrasion. Sounds silly probably, but alloys with low antimony and an absolute minimum of tin, when heat treated, take abrasion very well. They also SHOOT very well and can take steep rifling twist rates IF you apply the correct techniques to launch and follow through to the muzzle with adequate pressure.

Gear

[cbrick]

Gear, that's where I'll start. 2% or under Sb and .5% Sn. Gonna order the XCB mold from Al. The only rifle I have to try any of this is a TCR 83 26" with a 10 twist in 308. Shoots several loads well but all of my shooting has been 1800-2000 fps with 180 gr, just never had need or reason to push it harder. Also from available powders on hand I'm gonna start with V-140. I have a 12 twist 308 with a Shilen Stainless match barrel but I don't know about HV with that. Might be fun to see what it could do with it's 15" barrel. I also have a couple of Rem 700's in 7-08, never pushed them either. Maybe I'm handicapping myself but I can't get it out of my head that the 7mm would make things more difficult. I also have fewer molds in 7mm.

Another thing, the only range I currently have available is 100 yards. Would take some serious tree surgery to get more range & the landowner would never go for that.

Should all be interesting.

Rick

[btroj]

Rick, I can shoot all the way to 600 but don't. I shoot to 100 only and that is good enough for me.

[Eutectic]

1. Back to Stephen W.'s post way back, he is correct that translational energy on the lands due to torque is around half a percent, give or take depending on bullet radius and rifling twist. I've calculated that myself several times in several guns using the simple formula developed by Dr. Mann. What I kept coming up with was the pressure itself being less than the yield strength of typical alloys, but that it was possible to exceed the strength fairly easily, as in shooting pure lead at 1800 fps in a ten-twist, four-groove .30 caliber.

2. What is NOT explained is abrasion damage of the lands. Several of us think this happens SOMETIMES and is definitely a possible failure point. Linotype is notorious for being sensitive to abrasion, which may be exacerbated by normal or fast twist rates.

3. I'm beginning to think that tin in the alloy makes it more sensitive to abrasion.
Gear

1. Question: Do your calculations include both boolit velocity and acceleration? (along with torque)

2. I'm not sure what I have seen is several examples over many years would be described as 'abrasion'..... It looks to me as more of a swaging action..... Pushing the alloy 'over' in layman's terms. If we could duplicate this phenomena at will I suppose we could find out by a pre and post weight? Be tough to stop our boolit without weight loss I imagine. Either way I repeat my analogy how a passenger train feels to a passenger when it is going fast on poor tracks..... If our boolit is not 'locked tight' in a circumferential uniformity during rotation who knows what the affects may be?

3. If 'abrasion' is the word them antimony is the culprit. (I believe) You know I started casting before the common term 'hard cast' was even spoken! You also know I shoot alloys as soft as I can for terminal boolit performance. Yet you have also seen I have shot very soft... very fast as well.

Eutectic

[dtknowles]

Tim, look for patterns. That is a big thing Run taught me. Is it always a certain shot number that goes out? I need to pay more attention to that, maybe start taking a small target to mark as I fire each shot.

Sounds like a sweet rifle.

I have been disappointed with this rifle since I got it but when you get a bench rest rifle for $1000 you can't expect it to be top grade. As far as patterns, there seem to be many forms. The first group told me the wind was giving me horizontal spread. The second group I think was trying to tell me I was lube fowled on the fifth shot. I should have patched before the third group. I use MML+soap sent by a member here, different from the member who provided the bullets. I shot last week as well and saw the flyers start at around shot 10 or so.122741

[dtknowles]

I expect to hear howls from the herd, but contact Goodsteel to do a check of her.
I think he would be willing provided the workload on the bench is not too bad covered up. Just my 2 cents

Why would I get a smith to look over this gun. I might see if I can borrow a bore scope (doubt that will show much be a nice bore) the throat is hardly eroded, but otherwise what is the smith going to do. Relap the bolt lugs, check the crown, check the bedding, it is glued in, free floated and tight. It shoots jacketed under a half inch (sad performance I say) but certainly it should shoot cast under an inch.

Tim

[roadie]

What's the goal of high vel, accurate cast shooting?

Who is it supposed to benefit? I would hope it's for the average guy with an average rifle, who wants to get close to jacketed accuracy with cast.

Is it about shooting fast at any cost? I truly don't see the benefit of having to drag a rifle with a 30 inch barrel into the hunting grounds to bag a lil deer....it's a bit clumsy, not to mention the powder burns on the lil deer.

Or, is it more about bragging rights..."lookee what I can do and you can't...I AM the greatest!".

I would really like to hear from both (or more) viewpoints.

So, what's it all about?

[roadie]

Understandable on the 30" barrel.
it is about how to get as close as possiable to jacketed velocity by controlling those factors (variables) that limit how fast we can launch those bullets.
It is how do I cast a better bullet select the right componets to achieve the best I can with my rifle and comparing notes of hey I used this lube and it worked for me.
The idea of certain ranges and group size was to provide a even method of comparison. Simple. Twist is a factor, Lube is a factor, alloy is a factor, case prep and volume is a factor, ignition of the charge is a factor. It should be repeatable by anyone given the exact same componets and methods.


So, the general consensus is that it's not possible, (or extremely difficult) to achieve the goal with average rifles?

Meaning, of course, rifles that currently have good accuracy with jacketed bullets.

And silly as it may seem, I felt the need to clarify that....it seems tiny, lil things are pounced upon and twisted out of context...not saying by you.

[cbrick]

CBrick , Rick in post#156 I will say that sounds like pretty interesting test bed. Like you I not too sure about the 7mm. 100 yards, heck right now I not shooting past that until I can get the velocity up there within a reasonable accuracy level.

Which lube was you thinking of? Mike

Which 308 are you referring to? The TCR 83 or the 15" XP? The XP may present problems other than barrel length for velocity. Concerning barrel length I foresee a problem with powder burn rate slow enough and muzzle pressure, don't know yet, haven't tried it. Next is the rifling, no idea how that may effect HV with cast. Shallow groove and thin rifling, I'll have to try it to find out.

Lube? Like everything else I'll start out with what I have currently. LBT Blue, Lotak and several home made recipe's. I can read here, take notes, see what results I get with what I have and go from there. I intend to revisit the lube quest thread and see what I can pick up there but that thread is long enough to be a project in itself.

Rick

[Bodine]

Okay guys this is getting to be confrontational, please keep it civil. If all you would like to do is argue, find somewhere else to argue.

[geargnasher]

Rick, don't let fear of the short barrel or high muzzle pressure keep you from trying. You wouldn't believe the blast and fireball my 20" Pig Gun made at 23-2400 fps with slow ball powder, but I finally got it to group. Others are doing just dandy with "barely legal" rifle barrels.

Gear

[cbrick]

Rick, don't let fear of the short barrel or high muzzle pressure keep you from trying. You wouldn't believe the blast and fireball my 20" Pig Gun made at 23-2400 fps with slow ball powder, but I finally got it to group. Others are doing just dandy with "barely legal" rifle barrels. Gear

Dang, my computer has been messing up, I just wrote three paragraphs in response and poof. Gone.

I intend to try it Gear. It will be interesting if for no other reason than it's a direction I haven't gone before.

Rick

[cbrick]

Rick, don't let fear of the short barrel or high muzzle pressure keep you from trying. You wouldn't believe the blast and fireball my 20" Pig Gun made at 23-2400 fps with slow ball powder, but I finally got it to group. Others are doing just dandy with "barely legal" rifle barrels. Gear

Without trying to turn me into a chemist which lube have you had decent success with?

Rick

[geargnasher]

Felix lube. LBT Soft. Below 2K fps, Lyman Alox. Your best bet is probably going to be to pick up some decent candle paraffin from the craft store and some modern Vaseline and just go with the old NRA formula (you DO have a decent supply of yellow beeswax laid in, I presume?). I'm not going to say that what you're using now won't work, but for reasons other than accuracy I haven't done enough shooting with it at any speed to give you a meaningful data point.

Gear

[cbrick]

Felix lube. LBT Soft. Below 2K fps, Lyman Alox. Your best bet is probably going to be to pick up some decent candle paraffin from the craft store and some modern Vaseline and just go with the old NRA formula (you DO have a decent supply of yellow beeswax laid in, I presume?). I'm not going to say that what you're using now won't work, but for reasons other than accuracy I haven't done enough shooting with it at any speed to give you a meaningful data point. Gear

I have the LBT, kinda. LBT used to have two lubes, hard and soft, I bought quite a supply of what was the soft. As near as I can tell what used to be his soft is now his mid range since he came out with one he now calls soft. Unless I hear reason to try something different I'll start with that. It's already in the Star. :mrgreen: The other Star has home made Lotak. No Lyman alox, no LEE stuff, no anything lube in a bottle. No Felix lube for no other reason than it's been on the to do list for way to long.

Rick

[cbrick]

well Rick sorry to hear that (computer issues) but best of luck with the rifle /cast work up I think you will have a blast.

I just may start with the XP. Curiosity is starting to get to me. I've decided that if I start out with no expectations about it I won't be disappointed. :mrgreen: Just will need to try a different direction with it.

Rick

[btroj]

Gotta start somewhere Rick.

[dtknowles]

Dang, my computer has been messing up, I just wrote three paragraphs in response and poof. Gone.

I intend to try it Gear. It will be interesting if for no other reason than it's a direction I haven't gone before.

Rick

I have had that happen a few times with this laptop. Often wondered if it was trying to tell me to let it go.

Tim

[oneokie]

Gentlemen,
Second warning on this thread.

[Hamish]

Gentlemen,
Second warning on this thread.

not it being a smart mouth, but for what??? Roadie got a little too "too" for my taste, but I don't see any thing after that.

its beginning to get rather facinating what gets warned or "disappeared" and what seemingly should set off the fire alarms, but does not,,,,,,

[dragon813gt]

Nothing good comes from these threads. This happens all to often. There is a distinct pattern that repeats itself over and over. It's never going to work itself out.

[geargnasher]

not it being a smart mouth, but for what??? Roadie got a little too "too" for my taste, but I don't see any thing after that.

its beginning to get rather facinating what gets warned or "disappeared" and what seemingly should set off the fire alarms, but does not,,,,,,

I don't know what to say, I'm not a moderator. Only thing I can recommend is ask one of them.



Nothing good comes from these threads. This happens all to often. There is a distinct pattern that repeats itself over and over. It's never going to work itself out.

One of the patterns that happens over and over are pages of posts just like these, pointless and pessimistic. Several long pages of which were just painstakingly edited. When even the slightest disagreement comes up, lots of people pile on with their two cents about the conflict, not the topic, so the topic BECOMES the conflict. It's like the spectators feed on the least bit of drama rather than either staying out of it or interjecting requests to keep things on track. Please be part of the solution, not the problem that keeps happening.

There is a triangle button by every post if you don't feel the staff did what you think they should. You can also pm individuals and discuss it privately. Options, folks, there are options rather than just complaining and hinting of conspiracy. I think a lot of the people who show up to pour gas on these fires need to stop and re-evaluate their own reasons before hitting the "submit" button.

I'll go pull all my defensive and explanatory posts from this thread myself, I think they probably should have been removed along with the ones they addressed. If staff disagrees and thinks they should stay, they can un-delete them. If both of you will do the same with the posts I quoted, I'll delete this one, too. Shall we move on?

Gear

[dragon813gt]

One of the patterns that happens over and over are pages of posts just like these, pointless and pessimistic.

There is a triangle button by every post if you don't feel the staff did what you think they should. You can also pm individuals and discuss it privately. Options, folks, there are options rather than just complaining and hinting of conspiracy. I think a lot of the people who show up to pour gas on these fires need to stop and re-evaluate their own reasons before hitting the "submit" button.

Gear

My post wasn't pointless and pessimistic. It was pointing out the childish behavior that happens over and over and over. It's apparent that it's never going to change. And don't worry, I reported a lot of posts in this thread. Don't assume I'm just posting to complain. It's sad that either "side" doesn't see the faults in their behavior. Everyone else is wrong but they are right no matter what.

[dtknowles]

My thanks to the Mod for the nice clean up job.

Tim

[Larry Gibson]

............ When even the slightest disagreement comes up, lots of people pile on with their two cents about the conflict, not the topic, so the topic BECOMES the conflict. It's like the spectators feed on the least bit of drama rather than either staying out of it or interjecting requests to keep things on track. Please be part of the solution, not the problem that keeps happening.............Gear

Very good and sensible advise. Hopefully all involved will read it and head it. Let's all be part of the solution.

Larry Gibson