When is a Factory Crimp needed?

[DBrown]

I shoot Cowboy action loads in 38 special/357 and 45 Long Colt. Both in revolver and lever action. I am wondering when a factory crimp is necessory and what is its primary purpose. I am finding that the 4 die sets (with the factory crimp) are pretty pricey and a guy could save a few bucks by going with the 3 die set.
Thanks for any help.:Fire:

[MightyThor]

Just my experience, others may disagree. Since we are usually shooting very reduced loads the usual reasons for a crimp don't usually apply. IE no heavy recoil that may move bullets in a straight case, and no pressure advantage to a crimped bullet. If your gun shoots equally well and you are not having bullet movement I think you can get by without until you stumble across a "deal" then you might just grab up a set for full power loads.

[EDK]

I'd use a crimp die because the cowboy level loads don't build much pressure and the casings are going to be dirty from gas blowback. The accuracy would also be poor because the slug wouldn't obdurate (sp?) and it would also probably lead. A smoke smudged case is usually one sign of a load that needs a heavier crimp to be accurate.

I"m currently playing with crimps on 44 full wadcutters and 6.0 Titegroup in 44 magnum casings. I can't really decide on taper or roll crimp, but don't get as good accuracy or case obduration if I don"t crimp. This boolit is really working well in a number of SUPER BLACKHAWKS, BISLEYS, and their VAQUERO equivalents. I can get under 1.5 inch at 25 yards in SUPERS with a Stroh (ALPHA PRECISION) trigger job; the VAQUEROS are box stock and are scheduled to go to ALPHA later this spring.

I'd consider the carbide factory crimp die to insure functioning. You want to eliminate problems before they occur in competition. Check out GRAFS, MIDWAYUSA, MID SOUTH, etc for wholesale price and cheap delivery..eBay sometimes.

:cbpour::redneck:

[454PB]

The FCD has it's place, but not for the kind of mild loads you will be using. Standard seat/crimp dies should be fine.

[Calamity Jake]

The FCD has it's place, but not for the kind of mild loads you will be using. Standard seat/crimp dies should be fine.

I agree, I'v been shooting cowboy for over 14 years with 38/357,44-40 and 45C
the seat, roll crimp die in 3 die sets work just fine.

The only place a crimp is realy needed for these low pressure/vol. loads in for the lever gun and tube mag, 10 rounds stacked one on top of the other under spring pressure may cause boolets to get pushed back in the case if they don't have a good crimp.

[eka]

I use mixed headstamped brass in .38 Special and .357 Magnum. Due to the varying thickness of the brass, I have found some that will not go into the cylinder. Usually about 2-3 percent of my loads. I solved that problem by using the Lee Factory Crimp die. The carbide ring irons out that little bulge. Same applies for the .45 ACP. Feeding was a nightmare until I started using the FCD. For me it wasn't so much about the crimp as it was about the case uniformity that I was after. Of course you have to realize that the carbide ring is not only reshaping the case, but also the boolit inside it as well. Never had an issue, accuracy wise, in handgun loads when using it. I have never found a need for the FCD in any rifle loads, but I would be more concerned about possibly changing the shape of the boolit if I were using it in that application.

Keith

[Leftoverdj]

Never!

I've been at this 35 years and maybe a hundred guns without ever feeling a need for a trick crimping die.

[Photog]

Absolutely couldn't disagree more. I think that the low pressure cowboy loads need a crimp to help burn the powder in those big cases with small charges.
In my 45 auto, the crimp was the difference of it not functioning and functioning well. YMMV, but I use the FCD for everything.

[geargnasher]

Absolutely couldn't disagree more. I think that the low pressure cowboy loads need a crimp to help burn the powder in those big cases with small charges.
In my 45 auto, the crimp was the difference of it not functioning and functioning well. YMMV, but I use the FCD for everything.

If your load depends on crimp beyond roll or taper, or your rounds don't chamber without post-sizing brass and case together in the carbide FCD, you need to review what you're doing and fix the real problem. Case tension is responsible for boolit retention in both autos and revolvers. FCD's *can* swage case and boolit so much that the boolti is undersized for the particular gun, and can also ruin case tension because the brass springs back and the boolit doesn't. It all depends on the dimensions of the boolits used, brass, and die. Sometimes it works, sometimes the FCD couldn't be a worse choice.

IMO there's no substitute for a good, taper-crimp on autos and an appropriate degree of roll-crimp for revolvers. There also isn't any substitute for measuring chambers, loaded ammo, barrel slugs, brass thickness, and taking care that all the dimensions stack up correctly to give appropriate case tension on the boolit. I've also roll-crimped the .45 ACP to good effect, regardless of the myths we've all heard about that not working.

The ONLY time I use a Lee FCD is when I'm too lazy to trim my plinker .30-30 mixed brass and it gives a consistent crimp even though the case lengths aren't perfectly uniform or square.

Gear

[kmag]

I loaded for over 20 yrs. before I ever heard anyone say that you needed to seat the boolit and crimp it in two separate steps. I think it was the when the progressive loaders became popular with room for extra dies that all the gun writers started stating that they seated and crimped in separate steps. I don't think I saw any 4 die sets for many years after I started to reload. I know plenty of shooters won matches with ammo loaded with 3 die sets. I think the FCD came along later. The main reason most people have trouble with seating and crimping is that they don't know the correct way to set up the seat/crimp die. They try to adjust for seating length and crimp at the same time and it is a two step process. I have two Dillon presses currently, but still have a rockchucker mounted beside the Dillons. When I load on the rockchucker I use my 3 die sets and can't tell the difference when loading or shooting.
I do own a 45 FCD die but not for crimping. Had to have it to knock the parts inside of it out so I could put a bulge buster in it to iron out a large bunch of 45 someone gave me that had been fired in Blocks.

[Tatume]

I've been loading for over thirty years, and have seen bullets shaved by crimps plenty of times. This is why I began using a separate crimp die, whether it be a Lee FCD or just a spare sizing/crimp die. Usually the shaving is hard to notice, it will be a ring of lead or guilding metal built up around the case mouth. If you ever pull bullets that have been shaved you will see it right away.

Ammo should be crimped in a separate step.

[44man]

I can't add to Gear or Kmag.
I seat and crimp together for most everything. Proper adjustment takes seconds and with the constant change in boolits, I need to do it every time.
Most of my cast will not enter a separate crimp die and if I force them, it ruins accuracy.
Crimp has almost no affect on powder burn but I do understand for those that use soft lead with no case tension. If brass is ironed out flat at the crimp it is OK but if you have any crimp left on fired brass, you are still doing boolit damage.
I do not go by clean brass, my high pressure hunting loads still get carbon and lube on the brass.
Pressure that expands brass to chamber walls is momentary so as pressure drops, the case retracts and for the rest of the boolit trip down the bore crud blows over the brass.
I tumble for a long time and even then that stubborn lube is not all gone. :veryconfu

[btroj]

I use one for some rifle cases like 30-30 or 45-70. I tend towards Redding profle crimp dies for most other stuff although I wondered they don't swage my bullets down at times. Haven't seen evidence of that yet but I can still wonder.

When are they needed for handgun? When Lee needs to devise a new product to sell. Marketing is about selling a product. It isn't always a good product or a needed product, it is only about selling.

[44man]

I check a boolit in the Redding. If it does not slip through the top of the die, it will not be crimped in it. It is a good die but better suited to jacketed.

[mdi]

Yep, an FCD has it's place; in a drawer put away. I don't understand the "just make it work" line of thinking. If you properly adjust your dies an FCD isn't necessary. FCD is a band-aid fix for improperly adjusted dies or mis-matched components. I've been reloading almost 30 years and when I found I had a chambering problem, I found out why, then corrected it. Yep I owned an FCD and used it twice. The first time was with my .44 Magnum ammo., I wanted to see what all the talk was about. Well, the die swaged down my perfectly sized lead bullets and I got barrel leading. Decided to "fix" the swaging problem and knocked out the carbide ring. Next time I used it the remaining crimp was really poor (angle off and/or bad finish) so I went back to my Redding Profile Crimp Die. Been loading 45 ACP, successfully, for a few years without chambering problems in 2 guns so I didn't waste my money on an FCD for my semi-autos (9mm too). I'm not Lee bashing 'caise I like Lee's consept of manufacturing new tools without "old school" thinking, and I own a lot of Lee's equipment.

If you wanna try an FCD, go ahead. There's no one looking over your shoulder when you reload and it's your ammo, and your guns. A bunch of guys will tell you the FCD is the best thing to come along since Bullseye powder. I just let you know what my experience/opinion is and you can intelligently decide for yerself...

[Larry Gibson]

With low end CBA loads a good crimp does affect powder burn. With small doses offast burning powder in large cases (read that with very low loading density) a good crimp will make the powder burn more efficiently. I recently completed a very extensive test of CBA loads using a new powder for an ammuntion company. I had a documented 2136 rounds tests + others for sighters and firearm function tests. The 2136 rounds were all velocity and/or pressure tested. The value of the crimp in such loads by increasing the burning efficiency was obvious, particularly in larger cases in revolvers.

However, given the short distance and large size of the targets used in CBA shooting with revolvers it was questionable whether the increase in burning efficiency/accuracy was usable. That test included the testing of just about every commercial cartridge used in CBA shooting in the .32, .38 SPL, .357, .44 SP, .44 Magnum, .45 Schofield and .45 Colt cartridges. In reality there is some pretty poor ammuntion (accuracy and unifomity wise) that is used quite successfully in CBA shoting.

Depending on the cartridge and method of loading I crimp both when seating as a seperate step.

The seperate step is done when taper crimping cast bullets and almost always when crmping into a canelure groove in a jacketed bullet. When the diameter of the cast bullet and the seating die cause lead shaving when seating/crimping in the same step I also crimp in a seperate step. Also the length and taper of the crimp groove of a particular bullet can determine whether I crimp when seating or as a seperate step.

Fore example a 356156 sized .357 - .359 can be seated/crimped in the same step. However, when sized .360 the crimping will strat to shave lead so a sperate crimping step is used. Like wise a Lee TL 158 cast bullet requires a seperate crimping step if a medium to heavy crimp is to go into a lube groove without shaving lead.

To me it's not one method woks better than the other but what method works........that's what I use.

Larry Gibson

[joec]

I don't load 38/357 but do with 45 Colt which I use in cowboy action. I bought the 3 die set and picked up a crimp die also by Lee which is sold exclusively by http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53_54&products_id=98. I'm really happy with too.

I do use the factory crimp die as sold by Lee for the 9mm, 45 acp and 45-70 because I prefer to seat the bullet then crimp as two steps instead of one.

[Char-Gar]

Your question I belive is when do you NEED a factory crimp die. I assume you are making reference to the Lee Factory Crimp die. My answer is never!

Oh don't get me wrong, crimping of the right amount and right kind can be very important. But your are talking about a particular kind and type of crimp die.

I have been at this stuff for a half century with more guns and rounds than I can remember and I have never owned a LFC die, and don't feel the need to buy one. That is the basis of my NEVER comment above. If I have not found a need for it by now, I never will.

Do some poking around on this site and you will find out that the LFC die probaby causes more problems that it solves with cast bullets. I don't see the sense in spending money for problems, I get enough free ones in this life.

[fredj338]

At least in handgun calibers, the LFCD is a solution to a non existent problem. I bought one for 45acp just to try it, see what I had been missing loading 100s of 1000s of rounds w/o one. I found with some bullet types, it degrades accuracy. My ammo has always been 100% reliable, so it doesn't fix anything for me & makes less accurate ammo, no thanks.

[MtGun44]

IMO, never. The Lee pistol type FCD is a totally unnecessary device.

Bill

[brotherdarrell]

There are two types of Lee factory crimp dies. They are two completely different dies.

On the left is a Lee "CARBIDE" factory crimp die. It re-sizes your loaded ammo along the same lines as a carbide sizer die. On the right is a Lee factory crimp die, non-carbide. It should more accurately be called a 'collet crimp die'.

The carbide factory crimp die has, IMO, virtually no application. The collet type factory crimp die, IMO, does have some useful applications. I regularly use it to remove the flare from a loaded case without applying a crimp. These dies have a small amount of adjustment that allows either a light crimp or a heavy crimp.

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff489/brotherdarrell/DSC00363.jpg?t=1346037175

I quit paying the extra for the Lee sets with the Carbide factory crimp die, but will pay for the collet type factory crimp die.

brotherdarrell

[prs]

I also see the OP's question as to when a Carbide Factory Crimp die is needed (pistol type not collet type). The answet should be "never". The supposed intent of the thing is to iron-out mistakes that might keep your rounds from chambering. Well duh!? Best remedy is to set-up your traditional dies properly. If your boolit has a crimp groove you can use, then crimping and seatng in same operation will be fine if you take time to set it just so. No crimp groove, maybe best to crimp in seperate operation and then the CFCD can be used (even if you knock the carbide ring out of it). I know not of those copper condon projectiles, maybe they "need" the CFCD?

prs