Lead Boolit Failure on Deer Hunts

[DonMountain]

For the last couple of years I have waffled between cast lead boolits and j-word bullets for deer hunting. My first deer killed a few days ago with a lead boolit was typical of those killed the last few years. It seems that I tune up my loads in my rifle (7.5 x 55 French bolt action) to be able to shoot a 3" group or smaller at 100 yards during the summer and fall before opening day. And of course opening day of deer season it turns cold, down in the teens, and the first boolet out of a cold rifle barrel always seems to be a flyer. This year it was correct for elevation but about 16" left of point of aim at about 100 yards. The second deer I shot at the next morning again with a cold barrel, I missed completely. The forth day, again early in the morning I took a different rifle and used j-word bullets and again, shooting across the same field to deer in a hedge row, hit it right at the point of aim. So, are cast lead boolits not practical for deer hunting when shooting them out of a cold barrel? They are fun for target practice in reasonable weather after shooting a few to warm up the barrel. But that is not possible when deer hunting. Or is that why lead boolits disappeared with the 45-70 before 1900? Are the big straight wall cases the only ones that will throw lead boolits accurately from a cold barrel?

[btroj]

Lube, it depends on the lube. Cold weather makes some of them squirrely, cold barrel flyers are a norm.

Larger diameter, heavier bullets are less affected by this.

Some lubes are designed to prevent this, look at MML

[Dan Cash]

Try paper patching, your rifle will act in a more consistant manner, aat least mine do for me.

[TCLouis]

Are you cleaning the gun after firing and before the trip to the woods hunting.

I shot about 900 rounds of 7mm Soup Cans and Lee cast thru a Husky 7 mm Rem Mag a few winters ago and zero never wandered during that time. Pushed a dry rough wool cloth patch through the barrel every once in a while but that was all of the cleaning I did.
Oh, obviously there was no leading.
I have no idea of the velocity and I just shot it at paper and small rocks on the hillside here at the house.

[35 shooter]

I use Ben's Red and have shot it from 15* to 97* with a 112* heat index. Don't know about above or below that, but it wasn't giving any signs of quiting.
One thing i do to insure a first shot though is run one wet patch 0f atf oil through the bore after shooting, then one dry patch through before shooting or hunting again.
1st shots are in the group in my rifle when doing that.
That one patch is straight through the bore and out the end...no back and forth.
Also works with r5r's simple lube for me in my rifle too. The rifle is a 35 whelen.
As already mentioned mml lube should be good too...just haven't tried it yet in mine.
Hope this helps.

[triggerhappy243]

You should be doing your hunting load development in the winter................. When it is cold like the day you hunt.

[white eagle]

don't really sound like you had your load dialed in initially
getting around 3" at a 100 yds sounds to me like you needed more work

[leftiye]

It probly is all about lube, and bore condition. Yes, it probly can be corrected. Don't put the gun away after the season, figure out how to avoid this while you have cold weather to shoot in.

[ammohead]

See if you can duplicate this phenom on paper consistently before you blame the boolit. Shooting at game can make the nut behind the stock loosen up. lol.

[44man]

Never clean a gun for hunting. Shoot enough before season and leave it alone.
That is usually the problem.
Barrel vibrations are different in the cold, check the stock to make sure it is not bouncing off wood.

[kevmc]

see if you can duplicate this phenom on paper consistently before you blame the boolit. Shooting at game can make the nut behind the stock loosen up. Lol.

x2!!!!

[DonMountain]

See if you can duplicate this phenom on paper consistently before you blame the boolit. Shooting at game can make the nut behind the stock loosen up. lol.

I can duplicate this on paper. In the summer time when I bench rest the rifle (French 36/51 in 7.5 x 55 French) I usually go out to my shooting range with a bag full of cartridges. Bench resting them the first one is always a flyer being 6" or more from the succeeding group. And after several rounds I can get a group at 100 yards down to less than 3". This is without a scope of course and using the really crude iron sights on the rifle. So, all of you guys that claim that a 3" group is really bad at 100 yards with old iron sights must either have really good eyes and modified sites, or your not telling the truth. In the winter time this initial round may be even more of a flyer. I think I have resolved the issue this year though. I borrowed my wife's 356 Winchester and killed 3 deer with it within 10 minutes using j-word bullets. It hits on-the-money the first round or the 50th round. So I just assume that cast boolits are just not accurate and suitable for a one-shot type shooting activity when the first boolit has to go where you aim it. As for the Nut-behind-the-stock problem. I don't get very excited about shooting deer anymore since I am an elderly retired guy. And I am just shooting all the deer to eliminate some of the destruction in summer time in our Soy Bean fields. But we do eat them all. Or give them to some of the children that can't afford meat.

[Blammer]

I think 3" at 100yds with open sights is great and I'd be happy with it and not fear hunting with that either.

If your first shot is always a flyer, you need to look at ways of fixing that and sight your rifle in for that first shot flyer. Problem solved.

Good suggestions here on trying to resolve that.

I do not have the first shot flyer issue with any of my cast bullet guns.

I have a 44mag, rifle and pistol, 360 DW rifle, 30-06, 35 whelen, 444 Marlin and a few others all shooting cast .. no first shot flyer issues.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

If You have proven to your self that the first shot is always a flyer, I'm assuming you are shooting a clean BBL. ?? If so shoot a fowling shot or 2 before going hunting....if your using Black Powder , you might want it clean if not in use for long periods....lots of folks using a good lube and a proper sized boolit do not have this problem , and no need to clean the bore after each shooting session eliminating the flyer problem....JMHO...Good Luck:cbpour:

[Boyscout]

Maybe I am superticious but I usually don't clean my barrel after my range practice with cast bullets. On the times I have, I dry the bore and take a fouling shot. I have shown others my bores and they can't believe they have not been cleaned.

[leftiye]

If you're using a good (circular definition) lube, you can avoid first shot flyers - one that doesn't leave substantial corrosive or hard(ening) deposits is usually the answer. Cleaning isn't necessary (in fact is undesirable) after every firing or session. CORE bore condition defines a good lube, usually it also includes minimum lube on the bore at all times to get the job done.

[winelover]

I can't believe that no one has suggested to the OP to try a different powder. Some powders are temperature sensitive. Find a load combination that you like and then test it in cold weather.

Winelover

[NC_JEFF]

Winelover has a good point, cold sensitivity and powder have been mentioned numerous times here in various forums. Don did say that the load improves after a few shots and all rounds settle into the 3" group, but this was during warmer weather. I think the answer to your first round flyer is in everything mentioned so far....
Don't clean the bore after a session.....this is not needed with a good fitting boolit at the proper speed......a lubed patch after a session followed by a dry patch before your first shot of the next session should suffice........and a better lube may be the answer
Don what lube do you use and what boolit and powder?

btw, I think a 3" group through retired eyes and old iron sights is pretty good. Good luck resolving your first shot issue. JD

[Digital Dan]

I'm thinking in two different directions with this. First off, lacking load information makes it a bit of a puzzle w/o all the pieces. Not going to speculate on that angle.

Next is lube and/or cleaning practices at play. Clean bore first shot with lead often flies elsewhere, perhaps more notable with BP than smokeless. I've noticed this to be a bit more pronounced with regular lubes as compared with ALOX in velocity ranges that I call moderate, ie 1600-2000 fps, but ALOX seems to work a lot like .22 RF lube and I get better results after a half dozen rounds or so have been fired. I also notice that with SR4759 at the loads I use in the .30-30 that cleaning the bore after shooting is wholly unnecessary. It is spotless. Subsequent shooting sessions do NOT generate first round flyers if the barrel is not cleaned.

[Larry Gibson]

DonMountain

It is the lube as mentioned; what lube are you using? getting a 6" flyer when the weather is warm on the 1st shot from a clean barrel is indicating the wrong choice for a lube. It only gets worse with cold weather as you have found.

Larry Gibson

[Dan Cash]

[QUOTE=DonMountain;3016346].... So I just assume that cast boolits are just not accurate and suitable for a one-shot type shooting activity when the first boolit has to go where you aim it. ...QUOTE]

Your assumption is indicative of your vast lack of understanding of cast bullet work and general rifle accuracy. Suggestions have been made to help you which you choose to refute or excuse. Following that path will not gain you anything.

[btroj]

I can duplicate this on paper. In the summer time when I bench rest the rifle (French 36/51 in 7.5 x 55 French) I usually go out to my shooting range with a bag full of cartridges. Bench resting them the first one is always a flyer being 6" or more from the succeeding group. And after several rounds I can get a group at 100 yards down to less than 3". This is without a scope of course and using the really crude iron sights on the rifle. So, all of you guys that claim that a 3" group is really bad at 100 yards with old iron sights must either have really good eyes and modified sites, or your not telling the truth. In the winter time this initial round may be even more of a flyer. I think I have resolved the issue this year though. I borrowed my wife's 356 Winchester and killed 3 deer with it within 10 minutes using j-word bullets. It hits on-the-money the first round or the 50th round. So I just assume that cast boolits are just not accurate and suitable for a one-shot type shooting activity when the first boolit has to go where you aim it. As for the Nut-behind-the-stock problem. I don't get very excited about shooting deer anymore since I am an elderly retired guy. And I am just shooting all the deer to eliminate some of the destruction in summer time in our Soy Bean fields. But we do eat them all. Or give them to some of the children that can't afford meat.

You get warm weather first shot flyers and are surprised they are there in cold weather too? What?

The problem isn't the lead bullet, it is the lube, load, and other factors totally in your control.

What lube? That is the single biggest factor in cold barrel flyers. Change to a lube that reduces or eliminates that problem. Look in the lube section, there are more than a few there. Look for tesring by Eutectic, he tests lubes for cold barrel flyers in temps down to 25 below.

[dave roelle]

I suppose some folks just aren't interested in getting cast working-----------++ Dan Cash on the PP !!!!!-----its the easiest way to detour the problems of lube selection !!!!

Dave

[DonMountain]

Winelover has a good point, cold sensitivity and powder have been mentioned numerous times here in various forums. Don did say that the load improves after a few shots and all rounds settle into the 3" group, but this was during warmer weather. I think the answer to your first round flyer is in everything mentioned so far....
Don't clean the bore after a session.....this is not needed with a good fitting boolit at the proper speed......a lubed patch after a session followed by a dry patch before your first shot of the next session should suffice........and a better lube may be the answer
Don what lube do you use and what boolit and powder?

btw, I think a 3" group through retired eyes and old iron sights is pretty good. Good luck resolving your first shot issue. JD

My complete load: WLR primer, WIN 6.5 x 55 cases reformed and trimmed to 7.5 x 55 MAS, 32.0 Grains of H4895 powder, RCBS 30-180-SP-GC with Hornady gas check and LBT dark blue solid lube that requires a heater to put on, and sized to 0.309 to lube and gas check through a RCBS LAM-II, fired in a MAS MLE 36/51 that I bought brand new and unfired about 20 years ago for $50. And there is very few round through it. I do shoot fouling shots in target work before the season and leave uncleaned through the deer season. The barrel appears sharp, and clean with no lead or fouling. Its just the colder it gets, the wilder the first shot is. And it is unpredictable where it will hit. High, Low, Left or Right. Until after I have fired a few shots through it. After target shooting a few rounds it will shoot more accurately than I can see through the sights. Which is a peep on back of the receiver and a wide post in front.

[btroj]

Use a different lube and test it in cold weather, at least as cold as you are likely to get in hunting season.
Carnuba Red is like this in my 32-20 below 45 degrees or so.

Leaving a barrel fouled can make it worse actually. That cold lube film changes the friction characterisitics of the first shot or two until the bore heats some.

This is EXACTLY why the lube quest started.

[triggerhappy243]

Wood stock on this rifle ....I will bet. RED FLAG!

[Silvercreek Farmer]

French

There's your problem! :kidding:

Sorry about the misses, I know that is frustrating. Have you tried cast in the 356? Seems like it would be a natural for cast. How does the 7.5 shoot with j words, same issue?

[DonMountain]

Wood stock on this rifle ....I will bet. RED FLAG!

All antique military rifles in my collection that are big enough calibers to shoot deer with have wood stocks on them. But my AR is too small of a boolet to shoot at deer effectively through much brush and be very successful. And that's the only one I have with a plastic stock. Plastic stock, high pressure round (.223 Remington) means J-Word. But it does make a dandy squirrel rifle with light loads and boolets!

[w5pv]

Ben's Red

[DonMountain]

There's your problem! :kidding:

Sorry about the misses, I know that is frustrating. Have you tried cast in the 356? Seems like it would be a natural for cast. How does the 7.5 shoot with j words, same issue?

What do you mean "French" is the problem? My grandfather was French! Didn't the French originate smokeless powder? Unfortunately for my family tree, I agree with you. The disasters of WWI and WWII in France. And this horrible rifle the MAS MLE 36/51. But it started getting so valuable I figured I better start using it. And I enjoy shooting the odd ones. It doesn't even have a safety on it. The French military went into battle without ammo in their guns, and only loaded them when they saw an enemy to shoot at. But the barrel slugs at 0.3075" and really throws J-words way better than I can aim it. But I haven't shot them in years. I used to use it for deer hunting with J-Words years ago and didn't have this cold barrel drifting problem at all. I have never fired cast boolits in the 356 since when I bought it I bought a 5 pack of 100 round boxes of Speer bullets for it. And loaded a couple of hundred of them 20 years ago. And still have at least 100 loaded. And since my wife usually uses that rifle for deer hunting since it is so light and has a scope on it, it takes a long time to shoot up that much ammo. For her its one cartridge=one deer. No practice, no nothing. She keeps up her practice with trap shooting. Different, but at least she is handling and shooting a gun.

[DonMountain]

Ben's Red

I recently purchased some new lube from White Label Lube Co. called "Xlox 2500 plus", to replace my dwindling supply of the LBT Blue lube I have used for years (I think they went out of business years ago). So, is this one reasonable to try or should I buy samples of all the lubes and do my own testing over the winter? Of course I have heard so many conflicting reports on lubes that it is hard to choose one unless I do extensive testing.

[DonMountain]

Use a different lube and test it in cold weather, at least as cold as you are likely to get in hunting season.
Carnuba Red is like this in my 32-20 below 45 degrees or so.

Leaving a barrel fouled can make it worse actually. That cold lube film changes the friction characterisitics of the first shot or two until the bore heats some.

This is EXACTLY why the lube quest started.

And where are the research results from the "lube quest"? Or is it still ongoing?

[jmort]

LBT/Veral is still alive and well

http://www.lbtmoulds.com/lube.shtml

[ammohead]

I would keep shooting it more and cleaning it less. If you are not getting lead fouling the barrel should stay quite clean with cast only. You say that the Mas was bought new and has few rounds fired at this point. Keep shooting with maybe a bit softer lube than you are using. Veral has a blue lube that doesn't require heating at room temps, in your garage in the middle of winter may not be the same but regardless a bit softer lube should help. Let the barrel season with use and this phenomenon may go away to a point that hunting with it is possible. I have a 1903 springfield that has maybe 500 cast rounds through it and has yet to be cleaned and shoots like a house afire.

Blanket statements like cast boolits are no good for hunting won't sit well with this crowd. That's why we have a forum for it.

[DonMountain]

I would keep shooting it more and cleaning it less. If you are not getting lead fouling the barrel should stay quite clean with cast only. You say that the Mas was bought new and has few rounds fired at this point. Keep shooting with maybe a bit softer lube than you are using. Veral has a blue lube that doesn't require heating at room temps, in your garage in the middle of winter may not be the same but regardless a bit softer lube should help. Let the barrel season with use and this phenomenon may go away to a point that hunting with it is possible. I have a 1903 springfield that has maybe 500 cast rounds through it and has yet to be cleaned and shoots like a house afire.

Blanket statements like cast boolits are no good for hunting won't sit well with this crowd. That's why we have a forum for it.

I apologize for that statement. It was just in reference to the first boolit flyer in a very cold barrel from this MAS MLE 36/51 rifle last Saturday. I don't seem to have the same problem in my 44 Mag Ruger Redhawk or my 45-70 Browning 1885. So I've decided to lay this rifle aside for the rest of the season until I try some of this Xlox 2500 plus lube I recently purchased. I have it all set up in my lube/sizer now working on 45-70 boolits for my brother. But I haven't tried any 30 Cal boolits with it yet. Is it possible that I am sizing these boolits too large for the rifle? It seems the 0.309 work well in my other American 30-Cal rifles. New and old ones. And my Swiss.

[largom]

I used LBT blue lube for a while then decided to make and try some FWFL [Felix World Famous Lube]. I never shot the LBT blue in cold weather and it required just a little heat loading in my basement. When I tried the FWFL my groups improved and I have used it for all calibers [22 thru 45-70] ever since. All of the deer I have killed for the past several years have been one shot kills with cast boolits and FWFL. I lived in Maryland until last year so our deer hunting temps. should be similar.
I load my cast 30 cal. boolits as cast which is .311, I lube with a .312 die. and have never had any leading. My 30 cal. velocities are 2000 to 2200 FPS. The only cleaning I do with cast boolits is to run a dry patch thru the bore after target practice and I always shoot at least one round day before season and no cleaning.
I agree with others that your problem is lube. You may also try a fatter boolit if it will chamber in your rifle. If you would like to try FWFL I can send you a sample.

Larry

[DonMountain]

I used LBT blue lube for a while then decided to make and try some FWFL [Felix World Famous Lube]. When I tried the FWFL my groups improved and I have used it for all calibers [22 thru 45-70] ever since. All of the deer I have killed for the past several years have been one shot kills with cast boolits and FWFL. I load my cast 30 cal. boolits as cast which is .311, I lube with a .312 die. and have never had any leading. My 30 cal. velocities are 2000 to 2200 FPS. The only cleaning I do with cast boolits is to run a dry patch thru the bore after target practice and I always shoot at least one round day before season and no cleaning.
I agree with others that your problem is lube. You may also try a fatter boolit if it will chamber in your rifle. If you would like to try FWFL I can send you a sample.

Larry

Thank you very much for your offer Larry. Since I do have other resources for taking care of this deer problem this year here in my soy bean fields, I would like to take some time to explore all of the suggestions I have read so far on this forum. I already have another, softer lube set up in the lube/sizer. And I have sizing dies I can try from 0.308" to 0.314". And my rifle barrel is already dirty. And I have plenty of formed brass for the 7.5x55 French. But I am going to put that off until the deer season is over. I think around Christmas time. Then I will take all of my prepared cartridges out to the shooting range for the one-shot trials with the different lube and different size dies and see if that makes a difference. And just leave the rifle out in the barn to stay cold. Where might I find the recipe for the FWFL so after I do a run of the two lubes I have here with the different sizer dies I might try putting some together to try also. But the last time I had trouble with flyers everybody recommended the Xlox 2500 Plus lube. What happen to that? Of course I don't notice the flyers when woods hunting with the rifle and just shooting deer at 30 or 40 yards. And if I see a deer out in the field in front of the house, I just call my wife over and she can kill it with her 356. We have killed 5 deer so far this year. The grandson killed one with J-Words in a 30-06. I killed one with the French MAS rifle and boolits that is a problem, and three were killed so far with the 356 and J-Words. But we do need to shoot about 10 more of them to clean up the problem.

[MT Gianni]

Clean your bbl before you switch lubes. By fouled or dirty we mean that the pores of the steel are already impregnated with the lube you are shooting. Changing lubes, which I believe you should do, requires you to purge the old lube out and re-season the bore.

[DonMountain]

Clean your bbl before you switch lubes. By fouled or dirty we mean that the pores of the steel are already impregnated with the lube you are shooting. Changing lubes, which I believe you should do, requires you to purge the old lube out and re-season the bore.

Thanks for your suggestion. I will give it a good cleaning and then fire some test rounds with the new lube, and then let it sit in the cold for several hours before trying the series of one-shot rounds. Using different sized boolits. Then after each one-shot-cold-barrel start, I will shoot a good 10 shot string and see where they all end up. And label each shot one through 10 or 11 to see what the progression is.

[largom]

If you want to try the FWFL just do a search for Felix World Famous Lube and you will find the formula.

Larry

[davidheart]

French....There's your problem! :kidding: .......

Somebody beat me to it. :D :D :D :guntootsmiley:

.........

1) Change your lube or paper patch.
2) Make sure you're taking a fouling shot. Even j-words need proper copper fouling to shoot consistently.
3) Check the temp sensitivity of your powder and possibly switch powder. Test when it's the same temp outside as you'll hunt. Check for standard deviation.
4) Slug your bore to double check your bore diameter and measure carefully. My 30-30 is .310 so I need to shoot .311 boolits for more consistent accuracy. ;)
5) Finally when testing for cold bore accuracy don't shoot "groups". Shoot one shot. Wait 15 minutes for the barrel to cool. Shoot again. Repeat.

That's about it. The vast amount of users on this forum use cast for getting game so the boolit isn't the problem.

[44man]

I use 296 in my revolvers, supposed to go to pot in the cold and needs a mag primer in the .44.
Not proven by me at all.
4227's are the worst for temp changes so a powder can have an affect. But it is NOT the first shot only. It is barrel condition for the first shot. Keep the rod and patch away from the gun until done hunting.
BP fouling MUST be removed but a patched RB will hit POA because you lube when seating a ball.
My hunting guns are FILTHY dirty. Sight for deer and never go near the bore until the season is over.

[pls1911]

FINALLY!!
I waded though this whole thread agreeing with the suggestions but wondering why no on had suggested slugging the bore... until Davidheart, two messages above.
I agree that most likely the largest issue you have is lube, and you are addressing that point.
Twist rate and bullet hardness are factors I don't think you've mentioned.
You indicated using an RCBS 180-FN, which should drop around .309-.310, depending on your alloy and all the other factors. I don't know what your 7.5mm nominally measures, I'd think .309 would be in the ball park for .001-.002 correctly oversized.
You may also consider a second/ final lube step with JPW/LLA/MS. I do this for .30 cal bullets fired in at least 2 dozen Marlins and Winchesters, Savages and Mausers spanning decades of manufacture with some interesting bore variations. I cast soft alloy, heat treat HARD, lube with supplies bought 20 years ago, gas check, size through a .312 die, then tumble with the JPW mix. Several bullet designs shoot well in all these guns when built with this method.

Another alternative may be to powder coat the bullets which should/could eleminate the lube issue. If you're interested PM me and we'll see what I can do to work up samples of .30 cal bullets on hand, several designs, all around 170 grains and gas checked. It will be early spring before I can get to it though.

[44man]

Any lube that needs a heater is too hard. Make Felix and be done with it.

[truckjohn]

Any chance you can try a stick of LBT Soft to see if the problem goes away?

LBT soft is good stuff - I use it myself and I don't get first shot flyers...

Thanks

[Geezer in NH]

Got to go with the Ben's Red suggestion myself along with check the bedding of the barrel.

[44man]

Ben's works in a rifle and LBT soft works too.

[btroj]

I agree with 44 man that Felox or Bens lube are likely to work well.Why didn't I suggest slugging the bore? Because it isn't the issue. He sights it in and gets 3 inch groups before the season. He specifically mentioned cold barrel flyers.Changing bullet size isn't likely to have any real effect on cold bore flyers.

[mattd]

Use a different lube and test it in cold weather, at least as cold as you are likely to get in hunting season.
Carnuba Red is like this in my 32-20 below 45 degrees or so.

Leaving a barrel fouled can make it worse actually. That cold lube film changes the friction characterisitics of the first shot or two until the bore heats some.

This is EXACTLY why the lube quest started.

I was hunting in MO opening day like DonMountain, using carnuba red and varget w my 3006. it was high 20s maybe. I was 3/4" at 50y sighting in during warm weather. pulled a bore snake thru once w REM oil prior to opening day. shot at a deer at 30y and complete miss. Couldn't figure out what happened cause I am so confident w load. 10 min later, while on the ground looking for blood, shot two deer to point of aim at 30 &60y. I'll have to test this while its still cold.

[DonMountain]

I was hunting in MO opening day like DonMountain, using carnuba red and varget w my 3006. it was high 20s maybe. I was 3/4" at 50y sighting in during warm weather. pulled a bore snake thru once w REM oil prior to opening day. shot at a deer at 30y and complete miss. Couldn't figure out what happened cause I am so confident w load. 10 min later, while on the ground looking for blood, shot two deer to point of aim at 30 &60y. I'll have to test this while its still cold.

I killed the first deer I shot at this year with boolits out of the MAS 36/51. Its just that I shot at the heart and hit over to the left and up about 16 inches from where I was aiming. Broke both rear legs and backbone and went out the other side. The second deer I shot at a day later I missed at a much shorter distance. The rest of them I got with j-words right where I was aiming. The slugged bore of this rifle measures 0.3075", so it is tight and I have been using boolits sized at 0.309" in it. And I have a softer lube set up now in the LAM-II sizer.