Key holing 45's

[bigalf]

Hey casters
I am trying to get into reloading and casting all at once. I casted and PC'd some 230gr .452 boolits. I loaded them with 4.4gr Winchester powder. they were keyholing. So I dropped down to 4.2gr and they are still tumbling. Should I just keep dropping down loads or is there something else I can try?

[Tatume]

There are many types of Winchester powder, but the powder type is almost certainly not your problem. It is much more likely that your bullets are undersized. Does the gun shoot commercial cast bullets or jacketed bullets well?

[bigalf]

There were no issues shooting jacketed bullets.

[TES]

time to get some calipers.....Are you sizing your PCd boolits? If not than that might be an issue as well. What type of alloy are you casting with?

[bigalf]

I have calipers, from hornady. the boolists are being resized in a lee sizer at .452. Alloy is all clip on wheel weight.

[btroj]

Key holing and tumbling is a certain sign of an unstabilized bullet. Is the bore leading?

Sounds like something is undersized somewhere.

[c1skout]

Is this for a 45acp? Are you using a starting load from a manual? Did you try just tumble-lubing the boolits? You may need to take a step or 2 backwards and start again.

[bigalf]

Yes it is for a 45. And no I have not tried any other lube other than PC. Maybe Ill try that.

[62chevy]

Lee Modern reloading 2nd Edition say to use 4.3 start and 5.3 max load for Win 231. That is the only Winchester powder I see listed for the 230 gr lead boolit. Could be size or the bases are really bad. Shot some like that when I first started and they keyhold and leaded my barrel in my 45.

[bigalf]

just looked it is Win 231. what do you mean base could be bad? I'll check for leading.

[warf73]

You said in post #3 you had no problems shooting jacketed. Did you clean the bore spotless before you started shooting cast?

[jeepyj]

What is the the actual diameter of the Boolit being dropped? I have a 230 round ball mould that drops small. When I size it it barely hits the sizer. You may have an slightly undersized boolit.
I had your same problem a few years ago with a 38 caliber boolit.
The things I'd do next.
1st slug your barrel and mic the slug
2nd mic your boolit.
After that post your result for both along with your lead mixture.
jeepyj

[6bg6ga]

I had a keyholing problem with my Colt Officers 45acp and it ended up being the bullets that were sized on the 450 sizer. I sold the sizer and purchased a Magma sizer and dies and problem solved. No more bullets that were undersized or sized on one side. No more Key holing either.

[GabbyM]

When seating and crimping your bullet. Most crimp dies can crush a bullet down in diameter if you set them to far down. Lee factory crimp die is noted for doing this. My Dillon die set with dedicated forth station crimp die will crush them if set to deep and hard also. You start with perfectly good boolits then ruin them.

Just a side note. I'd not go to all the trouble of powder coating for a 45 acp. Just lee tumble lube then allow to dry for a week before loading. Unless it's just cool looking bullets you're after.

[44man]

Size should be the only answer, also measure with a good mike, not calipers.

[prs]

Well, he says he is pushing through a Lee .452" size die and that he powder coats. If the die is sizing the uncoated boolit, then the boolit "should not be" too small. And then, when coated it will be about .002" bigger yet, but SOP is to size to .452"again for .451" barrel. If coated properly, the coating is TOUGH and there "should be" no additional leading. Maybe barrel is already fouled?

Let's hear about the pistol. Is it a modern made one that may have a very sharp or abrupt leade from chamber to rifling, thus stripping the coating and some lead away and leading the barrel?

prs

[fredj338]

Instability can be lower vel, so dropping the charge is only going to make it worse. I agree, check size first. Not just cast but loaded. Pull a bullet, measure it. If it is smaller than when you loaded it, that is likely your problem. Over crimping or too small an expander as Gabby notes.

[HangFireW8]

I'm thinking either the crimp has sized the boolit down, or too low velocity. For any given load, jacketed usually has higher velocity because higher engraving forces lead to a higher pressure, more efficient burn. As little as .2 or .4 grains can fix it.

Pull a loaded boolit and measure it.

[buckwheatpaul]

I agree with Tatum....more of problem with the boolit is undersized....go to the the book...."From Ingot to Target" by Fryxell....outstanding source for ever ails you, your casting, and sendin' 'em down range.

[bigalf]

The over crimp is a good idea, Ill look into that. seems like the more answers I get the more questions I have LOL. How do I tell the differecne between leaded barrel and just a dirty barrel. The Win 231 seems to burn fairly dirty so the barrel looks dirty, but a few patches through it and it looks fine, so I assume its just dirty.

[MtGun44]

Never had a situation with "overcrimp", including a really substantial roll crimp
on 8 BHN boolits for .357 Mag, actually reduce the boolit diam - I think this is
a fiction. I always crimp to about .003 or .004 of actual taper at the case mouth.
Case is .470, so that is a crimp diam at the case mouth of .466 or .467. Never
a problem.

Mic the boolits as cast. Never saw a semiauto that wouldn't do well
with .452, but it may be possible that the case is sizing down the
boolits. . . . . .

WAIT --- ARE YOU USING A LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE! This beast is
well documented to reduce the diameter of boolits while in the case.

(EDIT for clarification: "In some situations " - certainly did not intend to imply
that it always does this. Depends on brass thickness, die ring diam and boolit
diam. But it does happen.)

If so - get a regular taper crimp die and stop you problem.


Bill

[Dale53]

I size my .45 ACP (and Auto Rim) bullets to .452". I have used a variety of bullets from 195 grs to 230 grs. I have even used 250 gr Keith's in the revolvers. All bullet metal has been WW's+2% tin. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die on nearly all of my cast bullet pistol and revolver bullets. I get great accuracy (under 1" at 25 yards off a Ransom Rest).

I use Lee dies for my .45's. I load on my Dillon 550B, if that makes a difference.

I have never had an issue by overcrimping (I measure the case mouth and taper crimp to .470" with .45 ACP).

Dale53

[62chevy]

I size my .45 ACP (and Auto Rim) bullets to .452". I have used a variety of bullets from 195 grs to 230 grs. I have even used 250 gr Keith's in the revolvers. All bullet metal has been WW's+2% tin. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die on nearly all of my cast bullet pistol and revolver bullets. I get great accuracy (under 1" at 25 yards off a Ransom Rest).

I use Lee dies for my .45's. I load on my Dillon 550B, if that makes a difference.

I have never had an issue by overcrimping (I measure the case mouth and taper crimp to .470" with .45 ACP).

Dale53

Same here with the Lee FCD for the 45 acp but the Lee FCD for the .380 will swag the boolit down push all the lead out and make the loaded round to fat for the chamber. Both the 45 and 380 are cast will Wheel Weights and no tin added.