Winchester trapper model 94 question

[Nobade]

Gotta question for the board - A customer wants me to cut the barrel of his old Winchester 94 back so the muzzle is the same distance from the half magazine as it was on an original Win 94 trapper. He didn't know what that dimension is, and neither do I. Does anybody here know for sure, or have one of those rifles they could measure for me? Thank you in advance!

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Much of this info is in references like the Madis' Winchester book.

For older 94s, Winchester never made a "Trapper" model. There may have been later commemoratives or some such that were given that name for marketing purposes.

Shorter than standard 20" carbine length barrels were special orders and could have been any length (pre-Fed regulation 16" minimum barrel length). A few show up with barrels shorter than 16" and have to be submitted for an exemption if in fact they were an original factory special order. In the northern states and Canada the short barreled carbines were sometimes called "Trapper" carbines and in the southern border states they were sometimes called "Pancho Villa" carbines. Many of these short barreled carbines were sent to South American countries and Australia. I think the most common special order barrel length for the short barreled carbine was 16".

[nagantguy]

My trapper in .44 is 16 just measured it as I hunted with it tonight and its drying off by the wood stove. Hope this helps. Its the trapper carbine ae.

[starmac]

My take is he is wanting the distance from the end of the magazine tube to end of barrel, not the wholoe barrel length.

[TXGunNut]

Sorry, my oldest Trapper is a mere 40 or so years old, full length magazine. I can't recall last time I saw an older 94 with a barrel shorter than 20".

[fouronesix]

The distance from the end of a "half" mag (or whatever length mag for that matter) to the muzzle would have been whatever the customer wanted and probably based on the length of the barrel within practical and design limitations. Obviously the mag length minimum would be limited by the length of the forearm. They were special order guns. Today, I think the minimum legal barrel length is 16".

The only reference I can find to short barreled '94 carbine forearm length, which may have bering on a "half" mag (or whatever less than full length mag) length is: short barreled carbines with barrels 15" or less were usually fitted with 8 1/8" forearms. Short barreled carbines with barrels longer than 15" were usually fitted with 9 1/8" forearms. Plus, if the 94 carbine to be converted to a so-called "Trapper" is of more recent manufacture and in standard rifle cartridge config, converting it to a so-called "Trapper" carbine would be apples and oranges anyway and there would be no standard to compare to the '94 carbines of the past that were the basis for the factory special orders.

[Nobade]

I want to thank everyone for their input here! This is what I suspected, that most everything was special order anyhow back when this rifle was made. (Early 1900's) The customer insisted there was a "trapper" model available, so I went with what he said. So now my life is easy - just cut it to wherever I want, 16 1/2" or so, and tell him it's exactly like the factory would have done it.

I don't know what he's trying to achieve, but he gave me a 1886 45-90 to do the same thing to. With a sight radius of about 10 inches I'm sure that will work really well. At least these rifles have been pretty seriously bubba'd already so I don't feel too bad about cutting on them. Still it's a shame to see old Winchesters get hacked up.

-Nobade

[square butte]

I have a Win 92 SRC half (button) magazine in 25-20 (not a trapper) - But it is the sweetest handling rifle I own. Would like to have a whole stable full of them in that configuration. Especially 32-20 and 30-30. Have seriously thought of having someone modify an original in the same manner. Had not thought about the trapper length barrel - but it would be handy. I wouldn't kick one out of bed. Sometimes something just gets ahold of my eye and grabs my fancy. It's a disease - Kind of like Colt SAA's with 4.75 barrels. Call me crazy. Have a feeling that if I lived close by - I would have a bunch of projects stacked up on your intake counter.

[Nobade]

:oops: Aawww...

[glockky]

Let us see some pics when your done Nobade.

[fouronesix]

I want to thank everyone for their input here! This is what I suspected, that most everything was special order anyhow back when this rifle was made. (Early 1900's) The customer insisted there was a "trapper" model available, so I went with what he said. So now my life is easy - just cut it to wherever I want, 16 1/2" or so, and tell him it's exactly like the factory would have done it.

I don't know what he's trying to achieve, but he gave me a 1886 45-90 to do the same thing to. With a sight radius of about 10 inches I'm sure that will work really well. At least these rifles have been pretty seriously bubba'd already so I don't feel too bad about cutting on them. Still it's a shame to see old Winchesters get hacked up.

-Nobade
Sounds like a good plan for the 94. Probably just cut the mag tube to handle whatever number of cartridges is desired plus the spring, follower and plug given the restriction on the minimum length to clear the forearm. I would think that when Winchester received such orders they would have done the same thing.

[pietro]

.

This is my 16" barrelled .30-30 Trapper (Below, under a Henry .22), with it's issue full-length magazine.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd30/Pete44ru/Trapper-1.jpg

You'll most likely also have to shorten the half-magazine tube on that Model 1894 to match the bbl, and add a barrel band.

Addittionally, M1894 Carbine model also used a barrel band arount the forend tip ILO the Rifle model forend cap

The proper free length of a tube magazine's spring is equal to 150% the length of the magazine tube itself - so, a 16" magazine tube's spring should have a free length of 24".



.

[starmac]

I thought the trapper designation was sort of a late comer, at least post 64. Learn something every day.

[Nobade]

Well, he originally wanted 18 3/4" of barrel so that's what he has now. The barrel is still about three inches longer than the mag tube. I didn't change it at all. When I removed the forend, the barrel was stamped 94 so it possibly is from the first year of production. Too bad it was previously cut with a hacksaw and filed flat, and the front sight dovetail was made with a small round file. It's shorter now but at least it's a nice job now. We joked that his 16 inch 1886 is the "Bar" gun and the 18 inch 1894 is the "Deer" gun. Next I have to do his 1895 - not sure yet what I get to do to that one.

You know the most impressive thing about that 1894? The front sight. A strip of silver inlet into it, a nitre blued screw to jam it into the dovetail, and that screw is at such an angle to hit the bottom of the dovetail and wedge the sight against the back side of the cut. I was mightily impressed with the amount of effort Winchester put into that front sight. The rear was pretty neat too, with a two height flip up blade. Too bad it had broken sometime in the past and was brazed back together. Didn't work too well any more. Aah, the stories these old guns could tell...

-Nobade

[rondog]

I have a question too, if I may.....

I have a 94AE Trapper in .44 magnum. Stamped "1894-1994", so I assume made in 1994. It needs a new buttstock, does this rifle have the same wood parts as the regular Model 94's?

I've done some searching on Boyd's and other stockmakers websites, and seen nothing specifically labeled for "Model 94AE Trapper", just lots for Model 94's.

[doc1876]

I don't have good internet right now but if you go to the Buffalo Bill Winchester site you will find a plethora of information on serial numbers for the model 94 trapper

[TXGunNut]

I don't know what he's trying to achieve....Nobade

Same thing I do with my Trappers, mine hang out on the mantle when company's over for dinner or other times when I'm craving eye candy. Can't remember the last time either was fired and I'm pretty sure neither has gone hunting with me, probably never will. They sure are cute, tho.

[fouronesix]

That 94 on the barrel may very well be a date stamp. Does it correspond (usually a year or less spread) to in this case likely an 1894 or 1895 DOM receiver serial date? Is the caliber 32-40 or 38-55?

[square butte]

Always wondered about the front sight restoration on a barrel shortening of a Winchester src (earlier style non-ramp front sight) with the post/stud style front sight. How difficult would it be to recreate that style setup?

[GabbyM]

Always wondered about the front sight restoration on a barrel shortening of a Winchester src with the post style front sight. How difficult would it be to recreate that style setup?

Not hard if you are a gunsmith / machinist. Plumb it up in a mill and run a dovetail cutter through to make a new slot. In the old days some used to make the dovetail just using simple files and file guides. I'm not that good with my hands and never was. Front barrel band on a 94 will require drill and tap work. Then the barrel crown. I'd classify it on a labor sheet as high skilled labor. All well beyond hobby level work.

[Nobade]

That 94 on the barrel may very well be a date stamp. Does it correspond (usually a year or less spread) to in this case likely an 1894 or 1895 DOM receiver serial date? Is the caliber 32-40 or 38-55?

The receiver has a pretty low serial number, five digits. It was a 30 WCF with special nickel steel for smokeless powder. When did they introduce the 30-30?

-Nobade

[square butte]

No dovetail involved in the stud type front sight on the earlier style carbine. It would be a soldered on with a slot cut in the top for a sight blade. Just took a look in the Madis Winchester book. 30WCF would be the 3rd chambering for the 94 - in 1895. Are you looking for the date that the chambering mark on the barrel was changed to 30-30? Apparently trappers were made in 14, 15, 16, and 18 inch - with 16 being the most common length for trappers. 14, 15, and 18 were quite rare.

[fouronesix]

I think the first year of production, 1894, two cartridges were offered- 32-40 and 38-55. The 30-30 offered in 1895. 5 digit serial is a very low number so it's an early gun- no matter the cartridge.

Could be the 94 on the barrel simply indicates abbreviated model number?

[pietro]

I have a question too, if I may.....

I have a 94AE Trapper in .44 magnum. Stamped "1894-1994", so I assume made in 1994. It needs a new buttstock, does this rifle have the same wood parts as the regular Model 94's?

I've done some searching on Boyd's and other stockmakers websites, and seen nothing specifically labeled for "Model 94AE Trapper", just lots for Model 94's.





Rondog - Your question(s) might get more attention the next time, if you started your own thread for it. (and it'd be more polite than hijacking someone else's :) )

AFAIK, The post-64 Winchester 94 stocks are interchangeable, and with diferent inletting than pre-64's.


.

[pietro]

The receiver has a pretty low serial number, five digits. It was a 30 WCF with special nickel steel for smokeless powder. When did they introduce the 30-30?

-Nobade

The first Model 1894 Carbine (model) in 30WCF, by date, was SN4787, sent to the warehouse June 24, 1895, and shipped out on July 2, 1895.

The first Model 1894 Rifle (model) in 30WCF, by date, was SN3314, sent to the warehouse May 29, 1895, and shipped out the same day.

The first Model 1894 takedown in 30WCF, by date, was SN5056, sent to the warehouse Sept 4, 1895, and shipped out the same day.


.

[Geezer in NH]

Remember this under 16 inches by the least amount is a Federal felony without prior approval and payment of a $200 tax and background checks, photo's, fingerprints and CLEO sign-off. The Feds has no sympathy whatever.

However when approved the result will be cool!!

[TXGunNut]

Federal crimes are always felonies and Nobade is an experienced 'smith. Good luck with the CLEO signoff, many jurisdictions it ain't gonna happen. And I agree, when ATF agents sign on they turn in their sense of humor for the duration of their employment.

[windy]

back in the 1950's i met my great-uncle bert, who was something of a family celebrity--a trapper (especially bears and cougar) and hermit whose cabin up in lolo pass was said to be the coldest year-around habitation in idaho. uncle bert wasn't used to talking to kids, and i didn't know anybody that close to 90 years old, but eventually i pestered him into talking about his life in the woods. one of the things i asked him was what gun he carried, and he told me stories about several--but he said his favorite was a 32 with a 16" barrel. i couldn't even picture it, back then, but when i discovered that winchester had made a run of 'em, in the 1980's, i knew i hadta have one. his may have been a marlin, for all i know, or even a 32 remington, but it's gone now....but there's one that's gonna pass down in the family from here on, dangit!
mind yer topknots!
windy

[Nobade]

Remember this under 16 inches by the least amount is a Federal felony without prior approval and payment of a $200 tax and background checks, photo's, fingerprints and CLEO sign-off. The Feds has no sympathy whatever.

However when approved the result will be cool!!


Yep, I don't have a SOT just an FFL so I can't go making short barreled rifles. I won't cut anything down to less than 16 1/2 inches just to be on the safe side. That's small enough for one of these anyhow, it is very compact and has a tiny sight radius so it's hard to hit things with. I'll let the AR guys have their short barreled rifles, I got no need for them. I have handguns for that!

-Nobade

[BCRider]

...... In the old days some used to make the dovetail just using simple files and file guides.......

One of the videos on You Tube by Larry Potterfield from Midway USA is about this exact process. The You Tube channel name is "MidwayUSA". Here's the link for one job on a octagonal barrel done wholly by eye and some measuring;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W60yBwzipKA

Here's another on a round barrel that he does with a simple jig;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcfAFxsfqA0

[doc1876]

122978


now that I am back home, here is the serial numbers for trappers. I think I copied this from something that the Winchester Museum had out.

[Clark]

124618
I bought this 45 Colt Win 94 trapper new in 2004 at BIG5 for $300.
It was made in 2004.
It kicks like a mule with 250 gr 1535 fps.
It shoots 3 moa.
It has a 16.25" barrel.