Any S&W Shooters here?

[FlatTop45LC]

I am interested in a Smith N Frame 6.5" either a 29, 57, or 25.

I am looking for feedback on these revolvers. Specifically accuracy and durability.

I love my Rugers and am going to buy a Bisley 45 to hunt with, but I find myself wanting a Smith DA to scope and hunt with as well.

I don't hot rod loads either by the way. I like 1000-1200 fps in 45 LC and 1200-1600 in 41 and 44 mags. All with typical bullet weights.

Thanks!

[kungfustyle]

Hello FlatTop. I've got a K frame 357 and love mine. One thing you may want to check out is the cylinders. Mine varied quite a bit, from .3565 to .358. Cast boolits were all over the place. Once I reamed out the cylinders, the gun was right on.
I also have a Super Blackhawk and haven't had a bit of trouble with it. I can nail anything out to 50 yards or more w/ my Ruger. I couldn't say witch one is better. But you can get a Blackhawk Hunter DA for about $600 or $700 in the calibers that you are looking at and add another $300 for the Smith. If it were me, I'd get the Ruger and put the extra money in a good scope. By the way Leupold and Burris scopes transfer their lifetime warranty....and you can pick them up on e-bay for about $120.

[FlatTop45LC]

I may just do that KFS.

If so it will be a Bisley Hunter.

[contender1]

I own a LOT of Rugers, yet I also have a couple of the S&W guns you mentioned above. All are good. PERIOD. No problem doing as you wish with a good N frame.
PS; I have a S&W 629 classic with a scope base for sale,,,,,,,,,,,,,,! (Tempt, tempt, tempt, tempt!) :D :D

[pjames32]

4" 625JM here. Very accurate. No problems.

[MtGun44]

Current production S&Ws will live for 50,000 rounds at least with those level of
loads or even hotter, probably double that. I have several really accuate recent
production S&Ws - a Mountain Gun in .44 Mag rebarreled with a 6.5 ported bbl and
a totally stock 6" .357 7 shot 586 come to mind, but there are others, too.

In about 1990 they made the "Endurance" modifications to the N-frames and they
are far more durable than they were with heavy loads.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Assuming a 6"-6.5" barrel on my S&W N-frame......I would NEVER exceed 1000 FPS with any of the Model 25 derivatives and a 250 grain-class bullet, and would prefer they be kept around 850-900 FPS. They are not Rugers. With the Model 29 series (44 Magnum), I would keep 240 grainers at or under 1300 FPS. The current SAAMI limit (36K PSI) runs the 240s about 1250-1300 FPS anyway. The 29s are at their best restricted in this manner. I would do likewise with the 57-series 41 Magnums--1250 to 1300 FPS with 210-220 grain bullets. For the velocity envelope the original poster mentioned, Ruger would be my recommendation. They are far stronger.

ETA--gotta respectfully disagree with you on the S&W strength issue, Bill. SAAMI reduced pressure specs for Magnum revolver cartridges in the 1990s from 43K PSI to 36K PSI on account of accelerated wear to N-frame 41s and 44s and K-frame 357s. I know S&W allegedly re-engineered the platforms and added metallurgy upgrades, but I'll believe that right after I accept MIM parts as a quality uptick. Don't whiz down my back and tell me the drought ended, Springfield.

[mattw]

I shoot a 657 for deer hunting and plinking... it has held up well with 270 WFN LBT's over time and a very steady diet of LBT WFN 230's. No frame stretch yet! I also shoot a 625 in 45ACP for pins, it is ported and has a double ball crane lock, I do shoot 250 WFN in it with a very hot load of WSF, would not want to drop it in a 1911... I doubt it would chamber.

[StrawHat]

I have both models of the 25. I use the ACP for target and hunting and the long Colt for plinking and hunting. Mine are the older varieties from the 70s or early 80s, so no "endurance package". Both have been used more than average with loads equaling or slightly exceeding factory velocities. Both are still in good shape after thousands of rounds down range. I had a M29-2 but sold it after using the 25-5 at blackpowder ballistics.

Staying with sensible loads helps. S&W made and makes a good revolver.

[44man]

I owned many 29's and shot full power with 240's and 250's, even 265's, Strong guns for pressures but not good for 300+ boolits, recoil inertia is too much. If you harm a S&W, you should not shoot guns.
My only complaint was they are grip sensitive and will wander groups by your hold. So will a Bisley and the hog leg is most forgiving of all.
I would get a Ruger Hunter with a standard grip in a second. Bought one with a Bisley and it was gone in two weeks. I listened to others and made a huge mistake. I am tired of learning the hard way and nothing ever posted is not tested first.
By the way, my first 29 was in 1956 and I shot the hell out of it with a 429421 and 22 gr of 2400. I bet the gun is still in use today.

[FlatTop45LC]

44man,

If I buy a Ruger, it will be a Bisley 44 Hunter or a Blackhawk Hunter 41 mag.

[mattw]

I have been looking for a good Ruger Super RedHawk in 41 mag, it is my understanding that they were made, have not seen one. I do sometimes shoot 270's in the 41 mag and really do not like to do that to a 657, but they shoot so well. Grips? Every Smith gets a set of Hogue Monogrips before I even shoot it. That way they all feel the same and all feel right with the world.

[osteodoc08]

I've put more rounds through my Smith N frame 57s than anyone should be allowed. I have my fathers M57, a P&R no dash, that has been back to the factory at least once that I'm aware of. It was starting to go out of time and the forcing cone was shot. I learned how to shoot on that one and have put tens of thousands of plinkers downrange with it. Typically 6.5-7gr 231 with a 215gr Keith style boolit. That one is sentimental and while in good working order, I only put plinking rounds through it. My 57-1 on the other hand I use with my "serious" loads with max doses of ball powders like 296 and Lil Gun. Still tight and in time.....for now. When the time comes, I'll send it out to be reworked and some trigger work done.

OP, you mentioned scoping the gun. I'd look for a SBH Hunter model or a Redhawk. My SBH was my most accurate 41. I sold it when times were lean. I still have my Redhawk. It's quite heavy with the scope. But can withstand any subatomic load I can craft up (staying in load data of course)

[JSH]

I bought a 625 JM when they first came out. Couldn't get it to shoot in a bucket. A lot of cussing and tinkering made it come around, along with several $$ spent to get it there.
ran across a 657 41 mag. It is showing promise is all I can say on it.
Between the 625 and 657 I acquired a GP100 that I had used off and on for several years. It made the smiths look bad to say the least. Slowly but surely the SW herd is getting thinned and replaced with Rugers. If Ruger would build a 45 acp DA gun I would have a 625 for sale.
Jeff

[FlatTop45LC]

I've put more rounds through my Smith N frame 57s than anyone should be allowed. I have my fathers M57, a P&R no dash, that has been back to the factory at least once that I'm aware of. It was starting to go out of time and the forcing cone was shot. I learned how to shoot on that one and have put tens of thousands of plinkers downrange with it. Typically 6.5-7gr 231 with a 215gr Keith style boolit. That one is sentimental and while in good working order, I only put plinking rounds through it. My 57-1 on the other hand I use with my "serious" loads with max doses of ball powders like 296 and Lil Gun. Still tight and in time.....for now. When the time comes, I'll send it out to be reworked and some trigger work done.

OP, you mentioned scoping the gun. I'd look for a SBH Hunter model or a Redhawk. My SBH was my most accurate 41. I sold it when times were lean. I still have my Redhawk. It's quite heavy with the scope. But can withstand any subatomic load I can craft up (staying in load data of course)
I had a 1968 3 screw 41 mag briefly. Picked it up for a song and shot it a half dozen times. It had stag grips and a 4 5/8 barrel that just tore my hand up and had excessive muzzle blast.

Doubled my money on that one, but if left me in love with the cartridge.

[375supermag]

Hi...

I have several S&W revolvers around here. I have put literally thousands of rounds downrange through each of them. I have a Model 29 Classic Deluxe, a model 57, a Model 25 in .45colt , a 686 Silhouette model, along with a Model 10 and a Brazilian contract 1917 in .45AutoRim.
Still looking for a good used Model 27 at a reasonable price to round out the grouping. Don't know if it is possible to find a good used S&W DA .44Special at a reasonable price anymore, but I continue to search for that one as well.
I want to be able to pass a complete caliber set of S&W DA revolvers to my son when I shuffle off this mortal coil.

All have held up quite well to whatever loads I run through them. Most are well below max load level...the only one that gets any heavy loads is the .357Mag Silhouette model, which occasionally gets a few full-power Hornady 158 gr HP/XTP run through it just to remind some people at the gun club how easy it is to hit the 200yd gong with a revolver.

Most loads in any of my Smiths are cast bullets at medium velocity levels...if I want to shoot any earschplittenloudenboomer loads I have many Rugers and Dan Wesson revolvers for that.

My S&W have had many thousands of rounds through them and show very little, if any, wear (other than the Model 10 and 1917, which came to me used and holster worn...internally they are fine). I suspect that my son will be shooting them with the same type of loads for decades after I am dead and gone.

As far as accuracy goes, my son's 20-year old eyes make it child's play to knock empty shot gun shells off the 25-yard target frames off-hand with ease, particularly with the M57 and 25.
My 60-year old eyes can do it off a rest pretty much whenever I want.

Never scoped a Smith, so I can't provide any insight there.

[Char-Gar]

I have a couple dozen Smith and Weson N frames and have owned a few score more over the years. They are very fine and accurate handguns. Durability depends on the load and the vintage of the revolver.

For loads in the velocity range you seek, you would be better off with a Ruger SA or Redhawk. This is not to say that Smith will roll over and die with those loads, but they will take a pounding and quit sooner than the Rugers. I certainly would not shoot those 45 Colt loads you want in any Smith and Wesson ever made.

Folks do lots of things with handguns I would not do, but I have never worn out or shot loose a handgun in over 50 years of shooting these things and there is a reason for that.

[High Desert Hunter]

I shoot a model 25-13 45 Colt Mt Gun, it does very well with the 285gr 45-270SAA bullet at 1000fps, I talked with John Linebaugh before buying, he carries a S&W 45 Colt as his everyday companion, the loads I shoot were his recommendation.

[FlatTop45LC]

I shoot a model 25-13 45 Colt Mt Gun, it does very well with the 285gr 45-270SAA bullet at 1000fps, I talked with John Linebaugh before buying, he carries a S&W 45 Colt as his everyday companion, the loads I shoot were his recommendation.
Do you mind sharing your load?

[375supermag]

The S&W N-frame revolver...

"A more elegant weapon for a more civilized age"...

Nothing wrong with Rugers...I have a lot of them, just none in DA configuration.
I'll eventually get a GP100...someday, I guess...maybe...if I have to...

Pretty much stuck in SA mode here of late...only bought a couple of DA or semi-autos in the last decade or so.
Still need a Ruger flat-top in .45Colt, preferably stainless and another flat top BlackHawk in .44Special.

Kind of enamored of the .327, here of late, as well...plus, I never have pulled the trigger(pun intended) on a .30Carbine BlackHawk.

Once the holidays are past, I think I had better get busy on the gun-buying front.

[FlatTop45LC]

The S&W N-frame revolver...

"A more elegant weapon for a more civilized age"...

Nothing wrong with Rugers...I have a lot of them, just none in DA configuration.
I'll eventually get a GP100...someday, I guess...maybe...if I have to...

Pretty much stuck in SA mode here of late...only bought a couple of DA or semi-autos in the last decade or so.
Still need a Ruger flat-top in .45Colt, preferably stainless and another flat top BlackHawk in .44Special.

Kind of enamored of the .327, here of late, as well...plus, I never have pulled the trigger(pun intended) on a .30Carbine BlackHawk.

Once the holidays are past, I think I had better get busy on the gun-buying front.
I bought my Flat Top on a whim after starting up a Serial Number 1 piece of equipment I had the pleasure of being involved with from the ground up (hear the sarcasm? ). I hadn't seen my guns in 6 months much less shot one so I had a bad itch to scratch...

I picked up the blued version because it was all Lipsey's had left. I bought the last one of the 4 5/8" from the first run or so I was told.

I thought I would safe queen it, but after shooting it the day I got it, it became my constant companion on the farm and in the woods. It is only 35 ounces empty and carries so easy on the hip! I cannot recommend any gun any more than that little Flat Top!

I am going to get one of the 44 Specials one of these days.

[High Desert Hunter]

It is 13grs of HS 6 under the 285gr SWC, he gives the same load for the 260gr, additionally he recommended 8.5-9 grains of Unique.

[Ramjet-SS]

yup Nickel model 29 classic great gun shoots really well mostly Keith SWC 250 grain 1000 FPS great load.

I also have Model 16-4 cylinder reamed to 327 Federal 11.5 grains WW296 topped off with a 130 grain GC HP 1300 FPS super accurate.

[osteodoc08]

I had a 1968 3 screw 41 mag briefly. Picked it up for a song and shot it a half dozen times. It had stag grips and a 4 5/8 barrel that just tore my hand up and had excessive muzzle blast.

Doubled my money on that one, but if left me in love with the cartridge.

41 was all I knew as a kid and of course my first love in a big bore caliber. With handloads it can be lil mouse poot loads to rip snorting loads that, really, is more than enough for any typical ge animal in the continental US. I certainly wouldn't feel under gunned with it.

All my grips tend to be smooth Walnut that fill
my hand.......anything else and it will tear up your hands. Wish Ruger still put nice wood grips on their regular models. Those plastic cheese grater grips will tear your hands up.

[osteodoc08]

It is 13grs of HS 6 under the 285gr SWC, he gives the same load for the 260gr, additionally he recommended 8.5-9 grains of Unique.

There is an excellent article on his web page called dispelling the 45 colt myth, or something like that. Another writer, I think Brian Pearce, use 13.5gr HS-6 behind a 45-270SAA for a moderate 22.5k PSI loading.

[FlatTop45LC]

There is an excellent article on his web page called dispelling the 45 colt myth, or something like that. Another writer, I think Brian Pearce, use 13.5gr HS-6 behind a 45-270SAA for a moderate 22.5k PSI loading.
I got my loads from Brian. I am loading 6.5 of Red Dot or 9 of Unique under a 255 Keith with a BHN of approximately 18.

[44man]

A Bisley does nothing for me and I think it is just wrong. Beats my bug knuckle and a small change in grip makes it shoot funny. Only thing wrong with the 29 too. I shot 1/2" groups at 50 meters with 29's, open sights, Creedmore but put the gun down and let target setters get done, pick the gun up and miss the next targets. It is the reason a S&W NEVER won an IHMSA shoot. Not the supreme accuracy they had, just the grip. I shot ONE good group with a Bisley---JUST ONE.
I still love a S&W but a Bisley grip will be thrown as far as I can into a field.
I shifted my grip all the time on my SBH, never missed a target. I hate a RH grip but the SRH only needs held firm. Might be the best DA grip made. The angle of the dangle is important.

[Ramjet-SS]

44man I am happy that I am not the only one with that opinion about Bisley so much so I sold a nice gun made for me by John Linebaugh........

[KCSO]

My first N frame Smith was a 28 H/P and it shot over 30,000 rounds of mixed loads with about 1/3 of them hot 357 loads before it shot loose. This isn't counting wax loads and dry fire practice. With average useage a good N frame will last a lifetime. A fellow Officer who carried a M27 and wasn't on the pistol team is still shooting his gun now 40 yeas later and it's still deadly accurate. I put over 5000 rounds of cast loads throgh a M25 with no problems at all. All these were pinned barrel old models.

[Leadmelter]

Ditto,mine was a Model 28 I bought for $128. After shooting a steady diet of 19.5 grs of H110 with a 140/150 j-bullet, I had the 6 inch barrel replaced with a 4inch. With 150 cast and about 3.5 gr of WW-231, I can shoot all day into the black.
Great gun with Herrett grips.
Leadmelter
MI

[Artful]

Only S&W I have that has had to have work is my 29 8 3/8" - And I put a lot of lead down range with it when I shot Silly-wets with it. I lost track of how much I was shooting it but in the 2nd year of Silly-wet fever I shot about 60K rounds that year, got me up to A standing class.

[High Desert Hunter]

I get amazing accuracy with the Bisley grip, but for heavy loads, the M83 grip on my FA is the best I have tried, next is the Super Redhawk/GP100 design, and then the Super Blackhawk with the square backed trigger guard. To me, the Bisley just sends the recoil straight back into the heel of my thumb, and makes shooting heavy recoiling loads more difficult than the FA, with cowboy loads, I have shot 5 shot groups of less than an inch at 50 with my 5 1/2" barreled SS Bisley. I shot the Spade from an Ace of Spades at 50 yards with it, loaded Goex FFFg under a 285gr SWC lit by a magnum primer, nothing left of the Spade after 5 shots. I think hand shape really plays a big part in what grip is best, with really heavy loads in my SRH 454, the web of my hand would sting like no tomorrow, but not much stress on the wrist, with the FA, I don't feel it in my hand, but is does work the wrist over if I shoot too many barn burners in one sitting. I have no problem shooting good groups with my S&W, it would do better I am sure if it wore a 6" barrel. Now, as an addendum, another thing Mr. Linebaugh passed on to me, was to use a thicker motor oil to lube the front and rear of my cylinders, said it helps to keep the metal from getting battered as much, been doing that for near 10 years now, I can't say it has helped, but I can say it certainly hasn't hurt.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yes John told me the same I still do it have no reason to think it would not help but I actually use some mobile 1 grease. Seems logical oil will not compress until around 10K PSI.

I hated the trigger gard hitting my ring finger and battering it and never felt like I could get good grip on the gun. The classic grips on my Model 29 classic are wonderful as are the finger groove stock grips on my K frame 16-4. My BFR 30-30 grip is very comfortable and controllable.

[44man]

Yes fellas, I use STP on the pin and ratchets, front bushing too, cushions slam. STP is better then oil. You can use chain saw oil or RCBS case lube that I swear is STP.
It truely is your hands when choosing a grip and is why you should test fire each gun before committing putting down money. My big Knuckle is a huge problem, large from shooting heavy bows all my life. I have very large hands and a Bisley is death to me. Even the Freedom needed the factory rubber grips before I got control. I have NOT found a Bisley handles recoil better. It is harder to get the same hold on.
The Bisley was designed for light load, one hand shooting to get the barrel in line faster to your eye. Too many still believe in "roll", worst thing ever for accuracy. Smooth, shiny grips on a Bisley can roll the gun into the web of your hand.

[Joni Lynn]

I'm a 44 addict and my usual revolver of choice is a S&W. My preference is the 629-4 Power Port. It has the complete accuracy/endurance package and the ported barrel. I like the S&W's that have the endurance/accuracy package & with the firing pin mounted on the hammer and as few MIM parts as possible.
I have a good number of S&W's with the majority of them being 44 mags but that's not the only caliber. I don't have any 41 mags though.
I prefer the 29-5/6 and 629-3/4 from around 1990 or there abouts for the period of time and build quality of the era.
In 45 Colt I prefer a revolver with more meat in the cylinder walls like a Ruger. I know everyone says otherwise and not to worry about it but the thickness of the cylinder in the locking notches is quite thin.

[Don Purcell]

My late friend Kent Lomont put 220,000 full charge loads thru one Model 29 back in the early 60's. After 110,000 rounds he sent it back to the factory to have the springs replaced and firing pin replaced. He had them cut the barrel to 4 inch so could practice quick draw. After another 110,000 rounds it was sent back again for new springs and firing pin. The forcing cone was burned away to the edge of the barrel so they set the barrel back one turn and redid the cone. The ring around the cylinder was actually etched into the metal. When he got it back he shot it thru a Ransom Rest and it held 4 inches at 100 yards. 90% of the loads were 250 Keiths at 1400 f.p.s. with the rest jacketed full charge loads. This may sound far fetched but you would have had to of known Kent. He also put a 100 yard long belt of ammo through a Browning M-2 50 cal. non-stop at one of the Knob Creek machinegun shoots.

[MtGun44]

Al- we are generally in solid agreement on most things associated with guns, and
share the love of old guns and old revolvers, but . . . . . respectfully--

Sorry to disagree, but MIM parts are cosmetically challenged with the parting line
and ejector pin marks, but dramatically more consistent in performance and at least
equal in wear to the old fully machined parts. Talk to some gunsmiths that work on
old and new S&Ws and see what they say - that is where I get this info related to
S&Ws. As to MIM in general, I put a 2 lb trigger job on my Kimber 1911 in about 1999 or
so and have fired perhaps 30,000 or more rounds through that gun since. It still
has a 2 lb trigger pull and the parts show no wear at all. This is at least equal to
the best sear and hammer parts made and superior to many in the wear dept. I
do dislike the parting line on the S&W hammer quite a lot, it is ugly and I am
surprised they don't do some sort of cosmetic rework of the portion that is
externally visible prior to the color case hardening.

I'm afraid that fearing MIM parts will crumble is somewhat akin to wishing that those
scary steel belted radials could be replaced with good cotton cord, natural rubber
bias ply tires which were the very best that could be made in 1925. Manufacturing
methods move on.

As to the durability - I haven't run nearly as many rounds through ANY revolver as through
a few different 1911s, but I do believe that Brian Pierce is a really "straight shooter" when it
comes to writing about guns - everything he has ever written that I have tested has proven
to be true, of course can't verify everything, but have come to trust his word - and he reports
that the Endurance modifications since about 1990 make the guns dramatically more durable.
Maybe he is blowing smoke, but absent any real proof of it, I will trust him on this issue, too.

Bill

[Tatume]

...Brian Pierce is a really "straight shooter" when it comes to writing about guns - everything he has ever written that I have tested has proven to be true, of course can't verify everything, but have come to trust his word - and he reports that the Endurance modifications since about 1990 make the guns dramatically more durable. Maybe he is blowing smoke, but absent any real proof of it, I will trust him on this issue, too.

Let's also not forget that S&W now explicitly issues a life warranty on their revolvers.

Take care, Tom

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, I'll toss in my $0.02. I shot big bore revolvers many years ago, drifted away and then returned a little. Single action revolvers don't do much for me and I'm with 44Man concerning the Bisley grip frame, I never warmed up to the Bisley even a little. I think it comes down to personal preference so if it works for you, great. As for the S&W N-frame, I think it's an excellent design and the newer ones are even better. They now install a hardened cylinder crane, have longer locking notches and several other improvements to increase the life of the gun. I don't abuse guns, so for me, these improvements just make a good gun better.

The OP said he didn't want to hot-rod his loads but then quoted some velocity figures that are very hot in my book. I think he would be well served by reducing those expectations a bit.
That being said, in my experience, S&W and Ruger make excellent guns with a small strength advantage going to the Ruger. That's not remotely saying the S&W's are weak but rather the Rugers are super strong.

Back in my early days I wasn't into casting bullets but I sent a lot of commercial cast & J-word bullets down range. I could never get the 45 Colt to shoot as well as the 44 Special.

A 250gr SWC loaded to achieve 900-1000 fps in a 44 caliber is a VERY useful load and shouldn't be overlooked. I don't know why people are obsessed with the desire to push 44 caliber slugs to 1300+ fps other than to say they can.

Good Luck!

[Char-Gar]

My late friend Kent Lomont put 220,000 full charge loads thru one Model 29 back in the early 60's. After 110,000 rounds he sent it back to the factory to have the springs replaced and firing pin replaced. He had them cut the barrel to 4 inch so could practice quick draw. After another 110,000 rounds it was sent back again for new springs and firing pin. The forcing cone was burned away to the edge of the barrel so they set the barrel back one turn and redid the cone. The ring around the cylinder was actually etched into the metal. When he got it back he shot it thru a Ransom Rest and it held 4 inches at 100 yards. 90% of the loads were 250 Keiths at 1400 f.p.s. with the rest jacketed full charge loads. This may sound far fetched but you would have had to of known Kent. He also put a 100 yard long belt of ammo through a Browning M-2 50 cal. non-stop at one of the Knob Creek machinegun shoots.

This a test to see if anybody is reading your posts, right? Maybe it is satire or some other form of subtle humor I don't get. But at any rate I am calling BS on this. If you are serious about your friend Kent putting 220,000 full snort rounds through and early 60's Smith and Wesson Model 29 and holding the trigger back on 300 feet of 50 cal ammo full auto in a Browning Ma Duce, did he tell you this happened while he was abducted by aliens?

I didn't believe it when Obama said we could give health insurance to tens of millions of people who were either to poor to afford it or to sick to get it, and we could keep our insurance and our doctors if we like them, and we could save $2,500 per person for our insurance and it would not raise the national debt. I didn't believe his BS and I don't believe this dose of BS either.

[Char-Gar]

OK, I'll toss in my $0.02. I shot big bore revolvers many years ago, drifted away and then returned a little. Single action revolvers don't do much for me and I'm with 44Man concerning the Bisley grip frame, I never warmed up to the Bisley even a little. I think it comes down to personal preference so if it works for you, great. As for the S&W N-frame, I think it's an excellent design and the newer ones are even better. They now install a hardened cylinder crane, have longer locking notches and several other improvements to increase the life of the gun. I don't abuse guns, so for me, these improvements just make a good gun better.

The OP said he didn't want to hot-rod his loads but then quoted some velocity figures that are very hot in my book. I think he would be well served by reducing those expectations a bit.
That being said, in my experience, S&W and Ruger make excellent guns with a small strength advantage going to the Ruger. That's not remotely saying the S&W's are weak but rather the Rugers are super strong.

Back in my early days I wasn't into casting bullets but I sent a lot of commercial cast & J-word bullets down range. I could never get the 45 Colt to shoot as well as the 44 Special.

A 250gr SWC loaded to achieve 900-1000 fps in a 44 caliber is a VERY useful load and shouldn't be overlooked. I don't know why people are obsessed with the desire to push 44 caliber slugs to 1300+ fps other than to say they can.

Good Luck!

You are of course 100% correct in all you say. However, it seems to be "the thing to do" these days for people to blast high volumes of high pressure, high velocity, big bore handgun rounds down range these days for no real reason.

I don't guess anybody has told them that doing so will do great damage to their hands, wrists and elbows and when they turn 60 the pain will be so bad they will be back to shooting 22s, 38s and 9mms and wishing they had be doing so all along. Just picking up a full mug of coffee will become a challenge of the human will over pain.

The truth is that except for the very few, if any shots, needed to kill big bear, moose or bull elk a 40 caliber or over cast bullets, weighing 200 grains or more, traveling 900 fps will kill everything on the North American continent, within handgun range and providing the shooter can in fact shoot.

Testosterone is a heavy drug for many people and they only learn the consequences of youth when they are too old to reverse course because karma has taken over.

"Some folks learn by watching, some by listening and others by reading, but the rest have to pee on the electric fence."...Will Rogers

[FlatTop45LC]

I am not obsessed with fps.

I do want a 45 lc to run a 255 at 1000 fps.

I like 210s at 1350 or so in the 41.

[captaint]

I got over the "let's see how fast we can make this go" thing when I was still young. Thank goodness. I have the N frame Smiths and love them above all my other revolvers. My 57 is the favorite and it really likes 6.8 grains of Red Dot with Miha's 210 grain HP. With nothing left to prove to myself, enjoyable shooting is my goal. Every now and then I load up some "real" 357's just for fun. I enjoy that too, once in a while. Mike

[FlatTop45LC]

I got over the "let's see how fast we can make this go" thing when I was still young. Thank goodness. I have the N frame Smiths and love them above all my other revolvers. My 57 is the favorite and it really likes 6.8 grains of Red Dot with Miha's 210 grain HP. With nothing left to prove to myself, enjoyable shooting is my goal. Every now and then I load up some "real" 357's just for fun. I enjoy that too, once in a while. Mike
I enjoy shooting lite loads too.

My boss has a M57 6.5" that is absolutely gorgeous.

[Char-Gar]

I am not obsessed with fps.

I do want a 45 lc to run a 255 at 1000 fps.

I like 210s at 1350 or so in the 41.

All we know is what you tell us and this is what you told us; "I like 1000-1200 fps in 45 LC and 1200-1600 in 41 and 44 mags. All with typical bullet weights.".

[FlatTop45LC]

All we know is what you tell us and this is what you told us; "I like 1000-1200 fps in 45 LC and 1200-1600 in 41 and 44 mags. All with typical bullet weights.".
Completely understand. Not trying to contradict info.

I don't want to hot rod all the time, but would like the ability if I decided to.

Maybe my stated top end is a little over zealous.

[Shooter6br]

I have a 657, 25-2 (45acp) 638(38 Special) Mod 10' The 657, 25-2 and Mod 10 are wickedly accurate. For hunting 657 or a nice 629.

[Don Purcell]

Char-Gar, Ever hear of Lee Jurras former owner and operator of Super Vel? He and Kent were close friends for many years and can vouch for what I wrote. John Ross author of Unintended Consequences and high volume shooter new Kent longer than I and can vouch for him. The late Harry Stanford designer and builder of the Automag was working closely with Kent on loads and durability mods for the Automag. Kent and Elmer Keith were close friends for many years and Keith spoke very highly of him. Too bad you never new him you might have learned something.

[FlatTop45LC]

I have a 657, 25-2 (45acp) 638(38 Special) Mod 10' The 657, 25-2 and Mod 10 are wickedly accurate. For hunting 657 or a nice 629.
Good Lord that is gorgeous!

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar, Ever hear of Lee Jurras former owner and operator of Super Vel? He and Kent were close friends for many years and can vouch for what I wrote. John Ross author of Unintended Consequences and high volume shooter new Kent longer than I and can vouch for him. The late Harry Stanford designer and builder of the Automag was working closely with Kent on loads and durability mods for the Automag. Kent and Elmer Keith were close friends for many years and Keith spoke very highly of him. Too bad you never new him you might have learned something.

I know Lee Jurras quite well. He is dealing with cancer right now at his new home in New Mexico. I am not going to bug him about this as he has a full plate, but will mention it should it seem appropriate. If Lee says it is so, then it is so. I know him, but don't know you.

[Porterhouse]

I believe what Don Purcell said about Kent Lomont. I never had a chance to meet Kent but John Ross told me several stories about him. I don't know or heard about anyone else who tested any given guns to its limit, as hard as Kent did.
Back to S&W revolvers. They do suffer from end shakes and stuff with lots of shooting but I don't call them weak. That's just the nature of design and either you understand it or hate it. For me, I much prefer fine trigger and the convenience of dumping 6 or 5 emptily cases, instead of tedious one at the time single actions.

[9.3X62AL]

I didn't mean to start a pissing contest over revolver strength, but stated my beliefs based upon my experiences with a number of revolvers of various makes. It gives me little comfort to hear assurances from a maker that refuses to service older-series revolvers any longer that their Endurance Package will withstand enhanced pressures, and it similarly gives small comfort to get encouragement to hot-rod revolvers from folks that make their livings repairing the things. Both sources have their skins in different games than the ones I'm in. Short version--most of my N-frames are down the road and replaced by Rugers, a company that will work on their products when needed. The N-frames that remain are older variants that will be used judiciously, recognizing their structural limitations. If S&W wants to act like Colt, they will be treated like Colt--ignored with enthusiasm.

[MtGun44]

Al,

I had hoped that we were having a friendly discussion, if you see it otherwise,
my apology, no pissing intended, sir.

Bill

[sargenv]

My favorite S&W N frame is a 6.5" 610 that I've put about 120,000 rounds through in USPSA and ICORE competition. I opted about 10 years ago to use exclusively 40 S&W brass in it since it was more plentiful and if need be I could use the ammo in other 40 cal firearms. A bit later I also switched up to the RIMZ polymer moon clips. No more issues with bent steel clips in the 610. The next new thing is for the 6.5" - 8 shot 9mm, the 929. Sort of what I'd been hoping for, for a long time competition wise.. Cheap to shoot, moon clipped, and that lovely 6.5" barrel.. Can't wait to try one/buy one if it is in the cards...

[FlatTop45LC]

Ok I think I have reached a conclusion.

I am going to buy a Ruger Blackhawk Hunter to scope - probably a 41 mag. This will be my new dedicated deer rig for treestand hunting.

I am also going to buy a 4" S&W M25 (possibly a mountain gun) in 45 LC to carry when not specifically hunting deer. This gun will not replace my Flat Top but will add a nice DA back in my working gun line up. It will live on a regular diet of 255 - 285 grain lead from 800 - 1050 fps.

Thanks for all the comments!

[Char-Gar]

Ok I think I have reached a conclusion.

I am going to buy a Ruger Blackhawk Hunter to scope - probably a 41 mag. This will be my new dedicated deer rig for treestand hunting.

I am also going to buy a 4" S&W M25 (possibly a mountain gun) in 45 LC to carry when not specifically hunting deer. This gun will not replace my Flat Top but will add a nice DA back in my working gun line up. It will live on a regular diet of 255 - 285 grain lead from 800 - 1050 fps.

Thanks for all the comments!

Sound decisions all around.

[Petrol & Powder]

Well, not to be "that guy" and splitting hairs but...... If you're going to go with the 4" S&W N-frame for your DA revolver (an excellent choice by the way), I'd suggest leaning towards the 44 magnum rather than the 45 Colt. The difference in diameter of .02" isn't that big of a deal but the versatility of the 44 mag is far better. With the same bullet weight you end up with a slightly longer bullet which equals greater contact with the bore and slightly better ballistic coefficients and power over a greater range of bullet styles.
Add to that a little more steel in the same exterior sized cylinder and barrel, plus the option of 44 Special and the 44 mag really starts to shine. If you're not going to match your single action revolver cartridge (.41 mag) to your DA revolver choice, you might as well get the best possible chambering in your DA revolver. In my opinion, that choice would be 44 magnum over 45 colt.


I'm sure those comments will open a can of worms but so be it. I've loaded and shot 44 Special and 45 Colt side by side and I would pick the 44 over the 45 every time.

[Char-Gar]

Well, not to be "that guy" and splitting hairs but...... If you're going to go with the 4" S&W N-frame for your DA revolver (an excellent choice by the way), I'd suggest leaning towards the 44 magnum rather than the 45 Colt. The difference in diameter of .02" isn't that big of a deal but the versatility of the 44 mag is far better. With the same bullet weight you end up with a slightly longer bullet which equals greater contact with the bore and slightly better ballistic coefficients and power over a greater range of bullet styles.
Add to that a little more steel in the same exterior sized cylinder and barrel, plus the option of 44 Special and the 44 mag really starts to shine. If you're not going to match your single action revolver cartridge (.41 mag) to your DA revolver choice, you might as well get the best possible chambering in your DA revolver. In my opinion, that choice would be 44 magnum over 45 colt.


I'm sure those comments will open a can of worms but so be it. I've loaded and shot 44 Special and 45 Colt side by side and I would pick the 44 over the 45 every time.

I have loaded and fired both the 44 Mag and 45 Colt for a very long time and like you I would pick the 44 if I could only have one. It will give sterling accuracy from 700 to 1,400 fps and it is easy to find an accurate load. The only thing the 45 Colt has going for it is panache and a long frontier history.

[FlatTop45LC]

I have loaded and fired both the 44 Mag and 45 Colt for a very long time and like you I would pick the 44 if I could only have one. It will give sterling accuracy from 700 to 1,400 fps and it is easy to find an accurate load. The only thing the 45 Colt has going for it is panache and a long frontier history.
I have to be honest when I say I will take either.

I already load for the 45 Colt and like tge cartridge so it seems like a natural choice, but if thr right deal was found on a 29 or 629 I don't think I would pass it up.

[High Desert Hunter]

I chose the 45 Colt Mt Gun in part because I have so many 45 Colts, and in part, because John Linebaugh recommended it, and it is what he carries. If it's good enough for a man who lives in grizzly country, and builds some of the most powerful handguns in the world, it's good enough for me in NM.

[FlatTop45LC]

I chose the 45 Colt Mt Gun in part because I have so many 45 Colts, and in part, because John Linebaugh recommended it, and it is what he carries. If it's good enough for a man who lives in grizzly country, and builds some of the most powerful handguns in the world, it's good enough for me in NM.
I chose the 45 Colt Flat Top based on a lot of things, but mostly John Taffin's writings and conversation with Jeff Quinn.

I really like the cartridge and think its only equal is the 44 Special/Magnum.

[9.3X62AL]

If you "graduate" to the Ruger-strength 45 Colts, the differences between the 45 Colt and 44 Magnum largely fade from view. I do agree that it takes less work to arrive at accurate loadings in the 44 calibers than in the 45 calibers, though. Some of that difference fades out if a shooter pays close attention to revolver dimensional integrity, but over the span of my time with both calibers the 44s have taken about half the R&D effort that 45s have. Neither one beats the 38 Special, 357 Magnum, or 41 Magnum for being correct right out of the box, though. The 38 Special and 41 Magnum have been preternaturally accurate for me, and if you avoid light bullets in the 357 it will match those latter two.

[Bucking the Tiger]

Sir, I have a S&W Model 29 with 6.5" barrel, two S&W Model 25's with 6.5" barrels, and have the 6" Model 57 in layaway.
They are all the reissue Classic models and I have been very pleased with them all. Not as pretty a bluing job as the old ones, but dimensions are tight and the timings are crisp. All are pricey, but handle well, and are very accurate.
The Rugers are nice guns: More heavy duty and much more affordable, but the Smiths are such a pleasure to shoot. As stated before, they don't like heavy for caliber bullets, but I have found great success using the recommended weights for each caliber.
I shoot these revolvers a lot. I use Loctite #242( the blue kind) on the cylinder release cap screw and on the the screw that holds the rear sight base to the frame.
The triggers are like new jeans: a bit stiff at first, but when broken in, they are very comfortable.

[Skunk1]

I have my grandfathers S&W highway patrolman (aka model28). It was scoped by someone else but shoots lights out. Between that and my ruger security six, it's a hard choice. Both shoot great.

[FlatTop45LC]

Gosh you guys have left me pondering! So many guns so little gun budget!

Here I am left wondering - do I go 4" 45 Colt, 4 or 6" Stainless 44 mag, or a 6.5" 41 mag? Or do I just buy them all!?!?!?

[Char-Gar]

If you are happy and comfortable with the Ruger medium frame single actions like your Flattop, then hunt up on of the Ruger Flattop 357 Magnums produced a few years back that got the new Flattop thing rolling.

I have owned lots of handguns, but my Lipsey's Flattop 45 is one of the best that has ever been though my hands. I also have a OM Ruger Blackhawk in 357 Magnum. Not a Flattop but the same size frame. Both very fine guns.

[Char-Gar]

If you "graduate" to the Ruger-strength 45 Colts, the differences between the 45 Colt and 44 Magnum largely fade from view. I do agree that it takes less work to arrive at accurate loadings in the 44 calibers than in the 45 calibers, though. Some of that difference fades out if a shooter pays close attention to revolver dimensional integrity, but over the span of my time with both calibers the 44s have taken about half the R&D effort that 45s have. Neither one beats the 38 Special, 357 Magnum, or 41 Magnum for being correct right out of the box, though. The 38 Special and 41 Magnum have been preternaturally accurate for me, and if you avoid light bullets in the 357 it will match those latter two.

My experience mirrors that 100%.

[FlatTop45LC]

If you are happy and comfortable with the Ruger medium frame single actions like your Flattop, then hunt up on of the Ruger Flattop 357 Magnums produced a few years back that got the new Flattop thing rolling.

I have owned lots of handguns, but my Lipsey's Flattop 45 is one of the best that has ever been though my hands. I also have a OM Ruger Blackhawk in 357 Magnum. Not a Flattop but the same size frame. Both very fine guns.
I love my flat top 45 colt! I guess I am really just jonesing for a new shooting iron and would like to add a double action back to the stable.

I could always get a 44 special flat top to compliment the 45!

[High Desert Hunter]

Just put new grips on my Flattop 45, the faux ivories that came on it were the most ill fitting grips ever! Eventually I am going to take it apart and try to get some of the creep out of the trigger and put new springs in it. I envision it as being my do-it-all sixgun for coyotes to elk, and with the 23,000psi load data worked up by Brian Pearce, and my 4 cavity Miha 45-270SAA copy mold, I am thinkin this will be a reality. I love the look, the feel, and the balance of this sixgun, especially with the new grips (Ruger New Vaquero smooth Rosewood from Ruger), it shoots very well with both cylinders, and I know with a little help, it will do even better.

122811

[Char-Gar]

Just put new grips on my Flattop 45, the faux ivories that came on it were the most ill fitting grips ever! Eventually I am going to take it apart and try to get some of the creep out of the trigger and put new springs in it. I envision it as being my do-it-all sixgun for coyotes to elk, and with the 23,000psi load data worked up by Brian Pearce, and my 4 cavity Miha 45-270SAA copy mold, I am thinkin this will be a reality. I love the look, the feel, and the balance of this sixgun, especially with the new grips (Ruger New Vaquero smooth Rosewood from Ruger), it shoots very well with both cylinders, and I know with a little help, it will do even better.

122811

Remove the grips of your Flattop and notice where the two legs of the spring hook around lugs in the frame on either side. Take a small screwdriver and flip one of the legs off the lug, it doesn't matter which one. Now replace the grips and you will find the trigger pull dropped in half. It will still be powerful enough to give good ignition on your primers of choice.

Time is about three minutes and cost to you is nothing.

If you find the front sight to high it is because it is speced for 300 grain bullets. The fix is also very cheap. Midway sells tall rear sight blades for the Ruger Redhawk and they will fit your rear sight bringing everything into right proportion for your bullet plus you will have a near white outline rear sight.

[High Desert Hunter]

I do the poor man's trigger job to all of my Ruger's, this one just has excessive creep. The sights are just fine, even with the 325s I have been trying. I have put a little over 500 rounds through this sixgun, and good many being 45 ACP, I love it, but I will be tweaking it up a bit.

[FlatTop45LC]

Remove the grips of your Flattop and notice where the two legs of the spring hook around lugs in the frame on either side. Take a small screwdriver and flip one of the legs off the lug, it doesn't matter which one. Now replace the grips and you will find the trigger pull dropped in half. It will still be powerful enough to give good ignition on your primers of choice.

Time is about three minutes and cost to you is nothing.

If you find the front sight to high it is because it is speced for 300 grain bullets. The fix is also very cheap. Midway sells tall rear sight blades for the Ruger Redhawk and they will fit your rear sight bringing everything into right proportion for your bullet plus you will have a near white outline rear sight.
I think I will order one. Either that or file my front sight down.

[dubber123]

Remove the grips of your Flattop and notice where the two legs of the spring hook around lugs in the frame on either side. Take a small screwdriver and flip one of the legs off the lug, it doesn't matter which one. Now replace the grips and you will find the trigger pull dropped in half. It will still be powerful enough to give good ignition on your primers of choice.

Time is about three minutes and cost to you is nothing.

If you find the front sight to high it is because it is speced for 300 grain bullets. The fix is also very cheap. Midway sells tall rear sight blades for the Ruger Redhawk and they will fit your rear sight bringing everything into right proportion for your bullet plus you will have a near white outline rear sight.
************************************************** ************************************************
I'm sure Char-Gar knows, but for others who don't, the spring legs under the grips are just the trigger return spring, they don't affect the power of the hammer strike at all. Ruger makes them much more powerful than necessary. You can bend both of the legs without disassembling the gun to achieve the same result, and it looks like a more professional, (yet still free) job.

The Rugers aren't hard to work on it all if you are reasonably competent. A 2 pound or so trigger is pretty easy to do, using all the original springs.

[Char-Gar]

************************************************** ************************************************
I'm sure Char-Gar knows, but for others who don't, the spring legs under the grips are just the trigger return spring, they don't affect the power of the hammer strike at all. Ruger makes them much more powerful than necessary. You can bend both of the legs without disassembling the gun to achieve the same result, and it looks like a more professional, (yet still free) job.

The Rugers aren't hard to work on it all if you are reasonably competent. A 2 pound or so trigger is pretty easy to do, using all the original springs.

I prefer not to permanently alter the springs so the handgun can be returned to factory spec by just replacing the spring leg over the lug. Nobody removes the grips of my revolver to see how professional it looks anyway.

[dubber123]

I prefer not to permanently alter the springs so the handgun can be returned to factory spec by just replacing the spring leg over the lug. Nobody removes the grips of my revolver to see how professional it looks anyway.

It's a 50 cent spring from Ruger, and I can also feel the loose spring leg drag down the main spring coils on about 50% of them that I have tried just flipping the leg off. The poor mans trigger job works sometimes, but it's easy to do it better.

[FlatTop45LC]

Well I have found the double action to add back to the rotation. We are on vacation so I didn't buy it, but as soon as we get home I am going to get my LGS to get me one.

It will be a Ruger GP-100. I have never held one until today when we went in Bass Pro. I was looking at a 629 with a 6" barrel and asked the guy behind the counter if he had any 27s or 686s and he had a 4" 686. He handed me the 686 and then laid the GP-100 on the counter and asked me to compare.

I looked at the build and just prefer the Ruger hands down. Now I have to decide blued or stainless. I am pretty sure I want the 4" barrel but may end up with the 6" - got to study ballistics a little more.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses and any opinion on finish and barrel length on the 357 is welcome!

[9.3X62AL]

The 357 Magnum is my most-carried and most-fired revolver caliber. If it is to be carried much and shot occasionally, the 4" will do fine. If it is primarily a hunting tool, I would lean toward the 6" barrel. In general, the 33% addition of barrel length equals a 10% increase in velocity with a given load. The longer barrel's sight radius will also tend to reduce sighting error. FWIW, S&W's seemingly arbitrary length of 8-3/8" for their long revolver barrels were in keeping with NRA's sight radius limit of 10" for Bullseye competition.

[FlatTop45LC]

I really am leaning towards the 6" to help out my eyes with the sights, but I love my 4" Colt Diamondback for balance.

I do carry my revolvers a lot but usually it is a 4 5/8" single action if in a belt holster.

I have always gravitated to vertical shoulder holsters for my double action revolvers so the barrel length and portability never really clashed. I can carry my long barreled King Cobra comfortably in a shoulder rig.

[Geezer in NH]

My pre-29 44 mag I shot for years until my arthritis said no more. I shot 105K Plus of the Keith cast bullet loaded below maximum. It killed slaughter pigs and beef for the family plus a few deer and many predators.

I liked the gun but now my K frame 357 works for me at loads under max.

It seems to me deer and other mammals need more killing today as most writers think. MY flintlocks work as my rifles whenever needed to kill game. My favorite is my .40 caliber, my 54 is held in reserve for moose and bear.

[High Desert Hunter]

I just picked up a GP100 with fixed sights and a 3" barrel, so far, been easy to make hits out to 6o yards with the Lyman 358156 SWC and the Miha Prevec 359640 hollowpoint. Shoots a little high with the 180gr bullets, but so far I am really loving this sixgun, plus it is downright economical to shoot.