More on Colt's financial woes...

[DR Owl Creek]

Bloomberg News reported last week that Colt didn't file its annual report on time, and is expected to default on its massive operating loans due on December 31st. The report also indicated that Colt will default on its $10.9 Million interest payments for its $249.4 Million bonds, at 8.75%, which are due November 17th (today). Colt stated it can't pay its $308 Million in outstanding loans due to poor earnings and cash flow. Standard & Poor's rating for Colt's bonds dropped to CCC-.

For more, go to: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-13/colt-defense-searches-for-financing-as-default-looms.html

[Love Life]

Reckon I better go get me a new Colt.

[FISH4BUGS]

Hey....not all bad news. Colt is THE premier historic arms maker that the name alone is worth millions. They will go under, the bond and stock holders will take it in the shorts, and they will reorganize. Hopefully they come back stronger and better with less debt, less union restrictions (remember, they ARE a union shop) and a new management team.
Sometimes bankruptcy can be a good thing. Too bad the investors lost money, but hey....it IS a gamble.

[jmort]

Need new ownership/management and to get rid of parasitic Union. Expect that reorganization will save Colt.

[Love Life]

If only the old crew of USFA would buy Colt and produce that pony to with the same quality that they produced their clones...

Dang Colt. People want your guns!! However, try to buy a SAA new in the store. Sounds easy right? No. You have to troll gunbroker and other forums and pay more than the MSRP from the factory.

1911's are a roll of the dice. Not in reliability, but in QC on finish and parts.

They shot themselves in the foot by flinging boogers at the civilian market while feeding the Government.

[Quiettime]

They shot themselves in the foot by flinging boogers at the civilian market while feeding the Government.

You said it right. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that had something to do with why Colt was able to keep those contracts for so long. It is not unheard of for the feds to make deals with arms manufacturers regarding the civilian market.

[Doc Highwall]

And they are still dealing with traitor Malloy.

[KCSO]

Colt died years ago when they went to work for the government and let the civilian market go. They neglected any new developments in the 1911 and put out the same old gun at an inflated price and lost their main market, they imported cap and ball revolvers and stamped Colt on them and sold them for inflated prices. Now they are front men for Walther. Soon they wil be a subsidary of Remlin and quality will dop farther and prices rise higher.

[runfiverun]

their quality isn't on par with their prices if it were I'd buy one.

if we are gonna lament losing a company, USFA is the one to be missing, good quality properly built guns at a reasonable real world price.

[FISH4BUGS]

I think it is too early to tell what will happen. I cannot see Colt going away. Their union has to let up on them and give them the ability to ease the work rules. Sometimes bankruptcy is the only way to take away the stranglehold a union has on the shop. It also lessens the debt load.
I, for one, am looking forward to the future of Colt after they reorganize. Maybe they can bring back the SAA. I am a Colt collector and they will never duplicate the craftsmanship they had in the early to mid 1900's (ever shot a Shooting Master or a New Service or a Prewar SAA or an Officer's Model match?), but the guns will be a damn sight better quality than most.

[seaboltm]

Ruger is sitting on a lot of cash. They should buy Colt and do it right.

[Love Life]

I agree 100% that Colt "quality" is over priced. I also understand that nobody else is a Colt regardless of the price. That makes me retarded, but I can accept that about myself.

I like Colt 1911's because they are reliable and they are Colt's. However in the fit and finish department, they really are not a $900 gun.

I like Colt SAA revolvers because they are Colt's. However, they are overpriced because Colt refuses to make enough of them and you all know how supply and demand works.


Now USFA...ahhhh. They made functional art at a very affordable price considering the quality of their offerings. They forced the lowering of Colt SAA prices. Then they went and pinched out, tapered end up, the Zip gun and left everybody hanging on their mighty fine revolvers. Just "POOF!! We hate making money!!" and started making garbage. My dislike of USFA is quite profound and I will not own any of their products in the future.

[Love Life]

Ruger is sitting on a lot of cash. They should buy Colt and do it right.

As long as no Ruger influence makes it into the SAA line. The difference between a real SAA and a Vaquero/blackhawk is night and day. No ruger SA revolver even compares to the Colt SAA for feel and eye pleasing lines.

I wouldn't want them to change anything about the 1911 either, just the price.

[Quiettime]

... Then they went and pinched out, tapered end up, the Zip gun and left everybody hanging on their mighty fine revolvers. Just "POOF!! We hate making money!!" and started making garbage. ...

Is that even the same company? I thought the USFA that was making the SAA's was defunct

[Love Life]

Is that even the same company? I thought the USFA that was making the SAA's was defunct


Yes. One and the same. USFA made some of the finest revolvers I have ld in my hand. The fit was every bit as good as my Freedom Arms, and the finishes were superb. Bright case colors, mile deep bluing, correct diminsions, timed so that a turn line never really formed.

Then they wanted a piece of the 22 market and released what will go dwon in history as an epic fail in the firearms world.

[M-Tecs]

Same company. Word is the owner is a flake and he got tired of the product line.

[seaboltm]

As long as no Ruger influence makes it into the SAA line. The difference between a real SAA and a Vaquero/blackhawk is night and day. No ruger SA revolver even compares to the Colt SAA for feel and eye pleasing lines.

I wouldn't want them to change anything about the 1911 either, just the price.

Agreed. Ruger would bring modern manufacturing techniques (casting) and marketing to the table.

[alamogunr]

Agreed. Ruger would bring modern manufacturing techniques (casting) and marketing to the table.

I don't think you and Love Life can buy enough guns to keep Colt going, even after reorganization. Ruger's work for me.

[Love Life]

I don't think you and Love Life can buy enough guns to keep Colt going, even after reorganization. Ruger's work for me.


No, I can't keep Colt going. However, I own a few Colts and no Rugers. If Colt were to disappear then I would just pay higher prices on the auction sights for the Colts I want.

I'd like to see Colt come out of this as a stronger company who actually produces a steady supply of quality firearms.

[starmac]

There has to be some gross mismanagement issues going on, given the firearm market the last several years has been the best it ever has been and possibly ever will be.

[xman777]

I wonder if Pelosi would arrange a Bailout proposition?

[garym1a2]

In the commercial world you learn to compete or die.
Plenty of companies to make AR's and 1911's. What have they done NEW recently?

[Love Life]

If they would just DO what they currently make...

[nagantguy]

How could they not be making money, with the prices they charge and the government contracts? Wonder if a former politician sits on their board. Seems like they be making bank, even if they only make a few of the guns everyone wants they certainly charge enough

[starnbar]

Colts problems started back in the Clinton era and in 2001 colts m4 contract went to fn in Carolina its been hit or miss ever since with colt. Too bad I always liked colts got a few of em and inherited a few from my family.

[USAFrox]

How could they not be making money, with the prices they charge and the government contracts? Wonder if a former politician sits on their board. Seems like they be making bank, even if they only make a few of the guns everyone wants they certainly charge enough

According to the article I read, they lost the most recent contract to FN, and since they had been neglecting their civilian offerings while they had the government cash pouring in, now they are behind the power curve when it comes to competing in the civilian market.

[smokeywolf]

Their fit and finish isn't what it was in the 19th and earlier 20th centuries, but still better than most. Their designs are copied by dozens of different manufacturers. So, all they have to sell is better quality than most and the Colt name. The economy won't support that anymore. The average Joe would like to have a Colt, but settles for a Ruger, Astra, Llama, RIA, Taurus or whatever. Even folks who have the money to shell out for a Colt know that if the Colt name isn't a necessity for them they can get even better overall quality for the same price elsewhere.
The economy just plain won't support charging that extra 20 to 30% just for that rampant colt logo.

smokeywolf

[lefty o]

colt turned its back on its bread and butter for 15-20yrs (the American gun owner), because they were sucking on the gvmnts nipple. this goes to show what happens when you defecate where you eat.

[TheDoctor]

To me Colt died when they discontinued the Python. It would be wonderful if there was a way to make them like they used to. Sadly, that kind of work is probably gone forever. I hate to think of what the price would be if they did still make them however. I know quality costs, but I also know people that spend more on a 1911 than what a python would cost now, adjusting for inflation.

And yes, they seemed to abandon the civilian market, and made their bank from government contracts. Guess they never learned the lesson of not being dependant on the government!

[starmac]

I may be off here, but didn't colt roll over and agree not to sell some arms to the public back about the time ruger and S&W caved in.

[theperfessor]

Colt? Ruger? Cougers?

[Char-Gar]

Colt has been on the heart-lung machine for decades due to union problems along with retarded management decisions. Going under is probably the only way it will ever be a viable company again. I just hope that whoever buys the name and assets will move it to a right to work state and put good people in charge. Colt Made In Texas, has a nice ring to it.

There was, is and will be a market for Colt branded products, if they can get their act together.

[Love Life]

<------ Market for Colt branded products!! Doesn't matter how much you paid, or who made it, if it ain't got a Pony on it then it ain't a Colt.

I'm still thinking on the made in Texas stamp on a Colt. It would be weird after seeing Connecticut on them for my whole short life.

[Petrol & Powder]

Ruger is sitting on a lot of cash. They should buy Colt and do it right.

Or not buy them and make copies of the profitable guns.

It's time for Colt to die, they're nothing but a name at this point and not a very profitable one at that.

[waksupi]

How could they not be making money, with the prices they charge and the government contracts? Wonder if a former politician sits on their board. Seems like they be making bank, even if they only make a few of the guns everyone wants they certainly charge enough

Government projects is no doubt one of the big problems. They don't get in any hurry to pay a vendor. If you get paid within six months, you are lucky. Creditors won't always wait. I will never take another government contract that isn't paid up front.

[Love Life]

Or not buy them and make copies of the profitable guns.

It's time for Colt to die, they're nothing but a name at this point and not a very profitable one at that.

If they can make exact copies instead of the homely and uninspiring stuff they make now...

[BD]

Any US firearms manufacturer with a 1911 and AR-15 line that's not in the black after the last 5 years needs a change of management ASAP. If it takes a bankruptcy to "get they'ah from he'ah", so be it. The fit and finish on Colt 1911s has been dismal for over 30 years. Colt has used "reliability" as a euphemism for extremely loose tolerances for so long that the average american consumer has long ago deserted the ship for higher quality at lower prices elsewhere, (nearly anywhere else for that matter). A perfect example of what the union gets you in the US these days.
There are more than one or two Colt 1911s in my family, and we love 'em despite their faults. But, the best workmanship by far is evident on the one produced around 1915. Even with more than 20 years experience behind them, they couldn't match the fit and finish of the product produced by a sewing machine manufacturer pressed into service for a very limited run to meet a desperate need in WWII.
Some of you guys like the rampant colt for it's own sake. I only like the Colt's that have some personal meaning to me. As a brand, it's GMC in the gun world.

[GabbyM]

I seriously look for the Colt name to migrate to China. As Maytag did.
That should make some of you anti union fellows happy.

Jaguar cars are made in India now. After Ford sold it off. Bush is owned by a German Beer company and so on.

[fatnhappy]

Jaguar cars are made in India now. After Ford sold it off. Bush is owned by a German Beer company and so on.

In fairness, Germans know how to make very very very good beer.

[Recluse]

1911's are a roll of the dice. Not in reliability, but in QC on finish and parts.

They shot themselves in the foot by flinging boogers at the civilian market while feeding the Government.

I remember getting a Series 70 Gold Cup NIB and how disgusted and disappointed I was when I took it out to the range. Another couple hundred dollars later to the gunsmith (and this was in the early 80s) and the gun was reliable, accurate and beginning to live up to the heralded Colt reputation.

I wrote them off when they went all gov all the time and told civvies to go pound sand. They actually did many of us of that generation a large favor because we had to go looking at Springfield and other manufacturers if we wanted something in the 1911 design.

Having used their JUNK (aka M16) while in the military, there was absolutely zilch about a Colt AR that appealed to me. I understand now that the quality and reliability of those plastic aberrations has improved, but you'll be hard-pressed to find to many vets of the 60's and 70's that have anything fond to say about the guns we were issued or had to carry.

And then there is the whole Connecticut/northeast issue. A lot of gun-owners would just as soon do business with a manufacturer that resides in a pro-freedom area of the U.S. Colt and S&W are shooting themselves in the foot by staying up in the northeast. Even Mossberg has began moving facilities down to Texas. No reason for Colt and S&W to stay up there. Smith & Wesson is my handgun, but I refuse to buy a factory-new S&W anything so long as they remain up there.

Too many years of abject corporate arrogance on the part of Colt combined with dismal management practices and downright pathetic marketing has led Colt to where they are today.

:coffee:

[Petrol & Powder]

In fairness, Germans know how to make very very very good beer.

True and I think it is actually a Belgium company :popcorn:

[Petrol & Powder]

If they can make exact copies instead of the homely and uninspiring stuff they make now...

If you don't like it, don't buy. Problem solved.

[Artful]

Or it could be enough of us older colt owners won't bother with them - I quit buying Smith's when they sided with the .gov over civilian rights - I quit buying Ruger - until after Big Brother Bill passed on - I Don't buy Colts anymore or HK's - but I still find ways to spend my money. Got an eye out for an FN pistol now.

[dragon813gt]

True and I think it is actually a Belgium company :popcorn:

Yes, and they make even better beers than the Germans.

Colt is a name, that's it. I have no desire to ever own one. And since I'm in my mid thirties I'm the demographic they should be aiming for. I still have plenty of years to buy their products. But I doubt one will ever be in my safe. It's full of more Rugers than any other brand. Even when it comes to older firearms I have no desire to own a Colt. I sort of understand why some people do. But I'm brand loyal to very few companies. And the ones I am, none are firearm companies, get a lot of my money.

I don't want to see them bought by the Freedom Group. Consolidation does not work in the consumers favor. I don't want to see them produced in China. I don't even want to see them produced by Miroku who knows how to produce a high quality firearm. Union shops, well I feel they've outlived their usefulness. But they are not the cause of Colt's problems. Piss poor management is.

What if Bloomberg bought them just to kill a firearm company? Maybe he should really put his money where his mouth is.

[Love Life]

If you don't like it, don't buy. Problem solved.

That problem has been solved for many years now.

[fatnhappy]

Yes, and they make even better beers than the Germans.


whoa, whoa whoa. Let's not be hasty. We should try all of them first, then decide.

[MaryB]

If colt thinks they can try to dump AR's onto the civ market to get in the black they are for a world of hurt. AR market is flooded and prices are headed down.

[TXGunNut]

I have a few Colts, hope to buy more someday but it probably won't be a new one. Tried for months to find a new 1911 awhile back and they simply weren't out there. They need a new owner and management team, hopefully they can get out from under some debt and the union at the same time.

[starmac]

whoa, whoa whoa. Let's not be hasty. We should try all of them first, then decide.

You can't be serious, you really haven't tried them all by now?? LOL

[MtGun44]

Have a goodly number and like my Colts. . . . . but Colts is totally dead now. There is only a name,
owned by some relatively anti-gun folks and made by somewhat indifferent labor to medium to fair
standards, sold in too small quantities at too high prices.

If someone that actually LIKE and ENJOYS guns were to buy the name and then start making
quality guns to the old designs AND doing a bit of innovation, they could RECREATE the Colts
name, but that is a CREATION, since Colts is really dead, just a name, zero actual continuity
and zero management connection or culture from the old company of the 1940s.

Bill

[FISH4BUGS]

Pan Am Airways was purchased by B&M Railroad and now does, among other things, airplane maintenance under the PanAm name. They occasionally fly charters under the PanAm name.
Colt could come back and be another company. They will NEVER recreate the pre-war quality of their guns. The steel is different, the machining is different, the skills are different. The best quality guns I have ever owned were a prewar (1920's) Commercial 45 and a pre-war 44 Special Single Action Army (never to be sold - they will put it into my casket).
The name Colt has too much history to die. All we can hope for is that they come back to life in some other form and make superior quality guns again.

[Petrol & Powder]

whoa, whoa whoa. Let's not be hasty. We should try all of them first, then decide.

I'm working on it, but I'm only one man and there are new ones every day ! [smilie=s:

[dragon813gt]

whoa, whoa whoa. Let's not be hasty. We should try all of them first, then decide.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of German beers like. But I happen to prefer Belgian beers. Particularly their Ales.

[Love Life]

Coors Light. In words of others who have no real argument, but want to sound authoritative, "'Nuff said."

[Petrol & Powder]

Companies don't exist to make guns, cars, washing machines, etc. They exist to make money. When they cease to make money they cease to survive. You can pump some cash into them for a short time in an effort to turn things around but if they remain unprofitable, there comes a point when they collapse.
Bad management hurt Colt and unions really hurt Colt. They made some great products in the past and had the rights to some great Browning designs when those patents were important. Colt also had some very profitable lines. (that they ran very poorly.) That's all gone now. Would you invest in a failing company and if so, would you continue to invest in a failing company?
It's time for them to go away.

[dragon813gt]

Coors Light. In words of others who have no real argument, but want to sound authoritative, "'Nuff said."

I can get that out of the faucet at home. It's called WATER ;)
I barely drink anymore. No free time and all it does is make me tired. A newborn does a good enough of that. /thread drift

[Love Life]

Petrol&Powder- It saddens me greatly, but you are right. I was born 70 years late.

[dakotashooter2]

I'm sure Obama will bail out this "to big to fail" company.................... or not........

I wonder how many millions in bonuses the leadership of this company pocketed while driving it into the ground?.......

I always laugh when I hear the term "Union Pride" associated with a product. Their "Pride" is that they are IN a union...not that they produce a good product................

[cuzinbruce]

Really amazing. Colt had a lock on 3 of the most popular guns ever. The Colt SAA, Colt 1911, and AR-15. Those were Colt's babies. And there are tons of them being sold right now. But not by Colt! Look how many others are making SAA's and 1911's. And everybody is making AR's of one sort or another. But what is Colt's market share? Bupkus!
Fortunately guns mostly don't wear out. So there are still plenty of older ones going strong. I have a New Service and an Officers Model Match. Fine guns both. And which I shoot but doubt I will ever wear out. So Colt will just be a memory. Like so many others.
If you are not infatuated with the latest technology, life will continue. I stopped buying S&W's when they prostituted themselves for Bill Clinton. But I have a whole bunch of them that are still going strong. And I will never own a gun with a built in lock.
We will see what happens with Colt. But you live by the government contract, you can also die by the government contract.

[Handloader109]

cuzinbruce has it right, Gov contracts, renewed every few years, get increasingly difficult to maintain ANY profit margin. You think that US Gov buys that weapon for what we pay for a civilian version? NO WAY, there is always some other company out there that bid a dollar less than you, and you MIGHT get to meet or beat their price since you already manufacture. Or NOT. Never ending chase to the bottom.

[Love Life]

You need to wash you mouth out with soap!

[5Shot]

Coors Light. In words of others who have no real argument, but want to sound authoritative, "'Nuff said."

I hate to ever say a disparaging word about anyone, but Coors Light is not beer. I drink it on occasion myself, but it ISN'T beer! Just Colorado Mt. Spring Water and a bit of flavoring.

Guinness...now that's beer.

[pretzelxx]

At $354 per m4 barrel, there's profit. I can buy the exact same one, for $165. Not entirely sure how they're failing if they're spending so much on government contracts! They make 3x what they should be in profit.

[Love Life]

It's a shame. My last Colt M4 let me shoot a 242 out of 250 on the KD range, and I'm pretty sure the 2 dropped points at 500 yds were due to ammo variation.

[rockrat]

Now if I could just win one of those 500 million dollar powerball things and Colt goes into bankrupcy, maybe I could buy the remains for a million or so. Move the machinery down to Texas or Oklahoma, find some good machinists, someone who knows how to work metal, and some who would take pride in the fit and finish of the product. As long as I could make expenses and taxes and a little more so I could say I do make a profit and pay for upgrading machinery to make a better product, then that would be good. No gov't contracts, period.

If Colt goes by the wayside, well thats just the way business works. Big Pontiac fan in my youth, but they are gone too. Business are born, and businesses fade away, just the way things go.

[GabbyM]

I'll add in here. I'm very happy with my FN manufactured Winchester model 70 I bought a couple years ago. Made in South Carolina. With any luck Colt will be acquired by a company that at least makes them here. With American parts. Then I'll be hoping it isn't the group that owns Remington, Marlin, DPMS along with others.

Here’s the mission statement from FNs web site. I see nothing in there that Colt has done or seemingly cared about for years.
Our Mission
FN America, LLC is passionately committed to providing our customers with a portfolio of products, training and support services that enhance their performance and safeguard their lives. Through our parent company, FN Herstal, we have a 125-year history that dates back to the days of John Moses Browning and the legendary gunsmiths of Liege, Belgium. Together, we have continued their proud legacy of developing the most innovative products on the market today that exceed our customer’s every expectation.

[Love Life]

FN's SPR rifles are the bee's knees.

[dragon813gt]

FN's SPR rifles are the bee's knees.

Spike's or GTFO ;)

[DR Owl Creek]

The Wall Street Journal reported that with Colt skipping the $10.9 million interest payment yesterday, they will have a 30 day grace period to make it up. If Colt doesn't make that payment by December 15th, they will then be in default, and the bond holders can demand immediate payment in full of the $249.4 million bond.

Dave

[dkf]

For a limited time only: Buy a Colt 6920 and get a FREE junk bond.:bigsmyl2:

[dakotashooter2]

I hate to ever say a disparaging word about anyone, but Coors Light is not beer. I drink it on occasion myself, but it ISN'T beer! Just Colorado Mt. Spring Water and a bit of flavoring.

Guinness...now that's beer.


ANY "beer" with the name "light" in it is NOT beer.....................

[mainiac]

250 million in debt,,,and its the unions fault?????think about this.....

[country gent]

I have a 6" python made in 1958 I bought used. Near mint other than at some point it was drilled and tapped for scoppe mounting. Colts had many issues over the years and has built some fine arms, The SAA (actually desighned by colt), the 1911 ( a John Moses Browning desighn licensed to Colt), The M 16 / AR 15 ( desighned by Stoner licensed to colt) along with many fine firearms that have went to the wayside. The small colt ponies and mustangs have been sought after for carry guns and back up for years. The detective specials were a effective weapon until penny pinchers took over. The troopers and varients were ofay but budget minded copies. As soon as a company starts being ran to make a profit its in trouble. Corners are cut quality goes down. A company need to be ran to make a PRODUCT that is profitable. A quality product produced and profits follow. Yes I have several colt products the above mentioned Python, a couple colts a pre war super and a delta elite 10mm. My compition service rifle is now a Colt HBar ( jewel trigger and support tube added) It has been a competitive rifle. I also have Armalites in match rifle and service rifle styles. The H Bar I got at a very good price ( good enough I also planned on changing out the barrel to a Krieger when purchasing it) and that was its real selling point for me. I like colts and the Pony but am not tied to them. As most consumers today brand loyalty isnt near as strong as it was 20 years ago. Colt may or not come back but no matter the out come a piece of history is being lost

[Deep Six]

250 million in debt,,,and its the unions fault?????think about this.....
Well obviously the $250 million hole didn't happen overnight. Trying to blame the woes on any one part of the company is not helpful though. Management abandoned, even insulted the civilian market at times while they lived on government contracts. Meanwhile the union was probably more interested in unsustainable benefits and "sticking it to management" than building a quality product the company could make a profit on.

[starmac]

As soon as a company starts being ran to make a profit its in trouble

Are you serious??? The problem starts when a company is not run to make a profit, at least in my way of thinking.

[TXGunNut]

Colt could come back and be another company. They will NEVER recreate the pre-war quality of their guns. The steel is different, the machining is different, the skills are different. -FISH4BUGS

Times are different as well. They may be able to come back as a viable company but it will never be the same. Colt is gone, same as Winchester and Marlin.

[starmac]

I have a different way of thinking I guess.

steel isn't the same. Nope, but it can easily be better.
Machines aren't the same Nope they can definately be better.

Skills are not the same. Maybe not, but they were learned once, and could be again. It may be hard to duplicate the pride in workanmanship people of bygone days had.

The big difference they would have between now and when it was originally started is a lot of competition, rules, regulations, labor concessions, and LAWYERS.
They still have a name somebody can build and capitalize on from a fresh start, but couldn't make many mistakes.

[GabbyM]

Colt could come back and be another company. They will NEVER recreate the pre-war quality of their guns. The steel is different, the machining is different, the skills are different. -FISH4BUGS

Times are different as well. They may be able to come back as a viable company but it will never be the same. Colt is gone, same as Winchester and Marlin.

Nice thought but we'll see a fork stuck into the Colt Inc. system very soon. they have nothing left. Leaches have sucked the life from the company. All to the joy of the union bashers here that truly don't have a clue. they are just like the democrats with there talking points and get all giddy and smiley at one another when they are able to spew out upon queue a union bashing talking point. Facts mean nothing to idiots. Fact is what is the spread of a Union workers pay from a non union workers pay in South Carolina at FN. Oh yes the SC workers actually make more money. Must be a union problem then wright?


BTW guys I first joined the UAW in 1977 as a worker in the lowest paid plant in the city. After a couple decades we turned it into a huge deal where Ingersoll Rand bought it then moved it to Pennsylvania into a non union plant. Now Caterpillar has taken over there market share and they are invisible in the market. Must be because of the union problems Caterpillar keeps whining about. I'm getting old and tiered of listening to people talk like fools.

For the record. I'd just as soon work in a non union plant and negotiate my own terms. As I some times did back when I was working shops. But that's only because Union wage is pretty much a minimum wage for any given job. When studying the private sector. Now anyone want to bash government unions? I'll jump right onto that one. I.E. campaign for me and get a raise or buck me and you're gone. That's American like Lennon was a Russian product.

[MaryB]

Excess wages/benefits, over regulation, over taxation, ignoring a market that is large, all of the above caused the failure.

[GabbyM]

Excess wages/benefits, over regulation, over taxation, ignoring a market that is large, all of the above caused the failure.

What is the wage at Colt and what is the wage at FN or any other shop. ??

I know the answer but you don't have a clue obviously. Just another talking point anti union drot.

[MtGun44]

"the steels are different"............ sorry, but I call baloney on this. Get real,
whatever steel they were using can be made today. In all probability, nobody
would want or need to do that, steels today have much fewer slag inclusions and
are much more consistent structurally. If a big company actually wanted it,
anything could be reproduced.

Whoever is in charge at Colts needs to find a president that actually has some
sort of a history with guns, preferably handguns, and get back to quality and
consistency. Probably will require moving to a different state, as so many
gun companies have and are doing.

Bill

[MaryB]

Okay Mr Know It All, post them along with the benefits the workers are getting

What is the wage at Colt and what is the wage at FN or any other shop. ??

I know the answer but you don't have a clue obviously. Just another talking point anti union drot.

[starmac]

Union wages is very seldom the problem, as non union wages are often better, it is the benefit packages and working rules that get companies in trouble.

It is quite possibly from a pure business stand point, it would be more profitable for colt to file bankruptcy and sell to someone that can put some profitability back into the company. I would think if that was the plan they would have done it before defaulting, or at the very least any day now.

[dragon813gt]

Ingersoll Rand bought it then moved it to Pennsylvania into a non union plant. Now Caterpillar has taken over there market share and they are invisible in the market.

What market are you referring to? Do you realize how big Ingersoll Rand currently is? Do you know what other brands they own? They are doing just fine and are a profitable company. I won't go into details about how they're slowly killing the Trane brand because this thread has nothing to do w/ that.

I've seen very few Union workers who ever see the failures in said unions. They were a good idea at one point, but not anymore. The teachers union in PA voted themselves a pay raise for retirees and it's put a severe financial burden on all school districts. Which of course hurts all home owners in the form of higher school taxes. Work for fifteen years, retiree and get paid 80% of your top grossing year for the rest of your life. Where do you find that outside of unions and how is it sustainable?

[USAFrox]

dragon813gt, you're right - it's not sustainable, and it makes no sense. But union workers will never see the light on this.

[Quiettime]

Now if I could just win one of those 500 million dollar powerball things and Colt goes into bankrupcy, maybe I could buy the remains for a million or so...

probably more like Billion with a B

[Outpost75]

Colt Defense LLC (the“Company”) announced today that it has entered into a new $70 million seniorsecured term loan facility with Morgan Stanley Senior Funding Inc. (the “MSFacility”). Proceeds from the MS Facility will be used to repay all amountsoutstanding under the Company’s existing term loan agreement dated as of July12, 2013 and provide additional liquidity, including to allow the Company tomake the $10.9 million interest payment due November 17, 2014 under theindenture governing its existing senior notes... The lenders under theCompany’s existing credit agreement dated as of September 29, 2011 (the “ABLCredit Agreement”) have also agreed to amendments to the ABL Credit Agreementnecessary for the Company to enter into the MS Facility. The Company believesthat the MS Facility will provide it with the time and flexibility necessary tosupport its medium and long term objectives. (Colt Defense acquired Colt'sManufacturing in 2013, hence is the only remaining Colt entity.)
http://www.nrablog.com/post/2014/11/18/Colt-signs-2470-million-Senior-Secured-Term-Loan.aspx

[USAFrox]

Wow. I wouldn't have made that bailout myself (assuming of course that I had the means). Well, I hope Colt can take advantage of it, and dig themselves out of this hole.

[TXGunNut]

Excess wages/benefits, over regulation, over taxation, ignoring a market that is large, all of the above caused the failure.


That and more, plenty of blame to go around. Sad story that didn't have to happen. FN proved American workers in modern plants could produce a first-quality product with today's materials in today's business climate, proof is the Super Grade M70 in my safe that rivals anything from the "good old days".
Only fly in that ointment is that I understand production of that rifle is going offshore.

[starmac]

No model 70's made here for a year or so.

[TXGunNut]

Wow, time rushes by. Have probably seen one of the foreign made ones but haven't taken the time to look it over closely.

[alamogunr]

Union wages is very seldom the problem, as non union wages are often better, it is the benefit packages and working rules that get companies in trouble.



Amen! Benefits and Work Rules. PLUS intimidation of the majority by a minority of bullies.

[FergusonTO35]

Here in Central Kentucky, Colt and Winchester are almost completely irrelevant to the new gun market. I can count on one hand the number of new Colt pistols I have seen for sale in shops here the last few years other than the Umarex rimfires. Even though Colt AR's are apparently available no one buys them, given how many fantastic deals are available on other makes.

Winchester is even more dead, if that's possible. Nobody other than the microscopic group of diehard fans will wait forever and then pay well over a grand for a Miroku made Winchester lever action, as nice as they are. The foreign made Speed Pump shotgun has never been any competition to the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500. The FN made model 70 was probably a very nice rifle but I think there are still alot of hurt feelings over the post-64 debacle and closure of the New Haven plant: nobody ordered them and nobody bought them.

Sadly, both firms could vanish and the new gun market here would not feel a thing.

[DR Owl Creek]

Colt Defense LLC (the“Company”) announced today that it has entered into a new $70 million senior secured term loan facility with Morgan Stanley Senior Funding Inc. (the “MSFacility”). Proceeds from the MS Facility will be used to repay all amounts outstanding under the Company’s existing term loan agreement dated as of July12, 2013 and provide additional liquidity, including to allow the Company tomake the $10.9 million interest payment due November 17, 2014 under the indenture governing its existing senior notes... The lenders under theCompany’s existing credit agreement dated as of September 29, 2011 (the “ABLCredit Agreement”) have also agreed to amendments to the ABL Credit Agreement necessary for the Company to enter into the MS Facility. The Company believes that the MS Facility will provide it with the time and flexibility necessary to support its medium and long term objectives. (Colt Defense acquired Colt'sManufacturing in 2013, hence is the only remaining Colt entity.)
http://www.nrablog.com/post/2014/11/18/Colt-signs-2470-million-Senior-Secured-Term-Loan.aspx

What the terms "senior debt" means here is that by providing the extra funding, Morgan Stanley now has "super priority" over all the other bond/stock holders, creditors, suppliers, unions, etc in any kind of reorganization or bankruptcy. In other words, Morgan Stanley just bought Colt for $70 million.

It would be nice to think that Colt's senior management and directors would have learned something from all their miscues, and now do what it takes to turn Colt around. More realistically, they'll probably just write themselves nice "golden parachute" plans and eject, stiffing everybody else. Either way, Morgan Stanley acquired Colt for $70 million. Everyone else can fight over any crumbs that might be left.


Dave

[FergusonTO35]

Not sure how more debt and a new Wall Street master to answer to is solving anything. Reminds me of people who pay for one house their entire lives because they keep taking out home equity loans. Colt needs to reinvent itself in a major way, or at best they will just end up as a nameplate that gets traded around like Marlin, H&R, and Winchester. If that means leaving Hartford and/or selling off the defense part that is still far preferable to the status quo. Heck, they could even stay in Hartford and focus on quality traditional handguns and nothing else. There are thousands of people who will happily fork out north of a grand for a 1911, Python, or SAA as long as the quality matches the price. Sadly it seems Colt would rather just keep making the same stupid decisions that didn't work for other gunmakers and won't work for them.

[starmac]

I seriously doubt private sales would ever get them out of the hole they have dug in, no matter what they offered or it's quality.

[FergusonTO35]

No, you are right about that. I was more talking about if they went bankrupt and/or split up the company, sold everything that wasn't nailed down. They could then go back to just being Sam Colt's company again.

[ohland]

"the steels are different"............ sorry, but I call baloney on this. Get real, whatever steel they were using can be made today. In all probability, nobody would want or need to do that, steels today have much fewer slag inclusions and are much more consistent structurally. Bill

Exactly true. The old retrobate was tapping a an original Winchester 1885 Low Wall barrel (no harm, it was lined), and he would hit hard spots. Doesn't help with keeping the same drilled hole length if one has to apply more moxie to get through a hard spot. No, he didn't make a ported barrel, but it sure doesn't help.

[Love Life]

The FN Winchester CRF actions are the bomb. True sleepers. Buy them, build on them, and enjoy them...oh and wait forever for a fiberglass stock but that is really arguing the small things.