Lubing a minié bullet

[DuncaninFrance]

I have just purchase a Pedersoli 2 band Enfield in .557" and intend to shoot minié bullets. Some videos on YouTube show the hollow base being filled with lube/grease before loading, others load as cast with a lube coating in the grooves.
I don't see the need to fill the cavity but, as always, there will be pros & cons.......What do you think?

[GoodOlBoy]

I have almost no front stuffer experience, however, I do have experience loading front stuffer bullets (minnie's, Maxi's, and REAL's) into 45-70 hulls over black powder. In my experience in this capacity only I have done the following with them.

Hand lubed in grooves only, over a lubed pillow ticking patch - Decent accuracy, a messy proposition for the hands.
Pan lubed in grooves and base filled, over a lubed pillow ticking patch - Decent accuracy, but used alot of lube (relatively speaking) and didn't see alot of difference. Up side is hands weren't a mess for the process.
Hand lubed in grooves only, sitting over a grease "cookie" and a lubed pillow ticking patch - Good accuracy, and fouling was a bit easier to scrub out. Again uses relatively alot of lube because of the grease "cookie"
Tumble Lubed in LLA, and a lubed pillow ticking patch - Good accuracy, easy process.
Tumble Lubed in 45-45-10, and a lubed pillow ticking patch - Good accuracy, again easy process.

Some may ask about why the lube pillow ticking patch in BP cartridge. I did this ANY time I was combining black powder and a hollow base bullet just for my own sanity so I KNEW there was no space in the cartridge case. I have been told what I did was completely pointless, and I have been told it wasn't. For me it was like a safety blanket or a teddy bear. It was a bit of reassurnce no matter what side of the fence I was on.

I am eager to see what the front stuffer guys have in advice on this one since they have all the real experience in this department, and as always I am hoping Santa drops a front stuffer off at my place this Christmas!

GoodOlBoy

[Harry O]

My experience has been with hollow-base 41 Long Colt bullets -- probably more than 10,000 so far. Filling the base with lube is less accurate than filling the lube grooves in the side. You can pan lube hollow-base bullets. As long as the base is completely filled out, you will not get lube in the hollow-base before it hardens.

[btroj]

Filling the base isn't needed. I just dipped the bands in a mix of beeswax and Crisco. Messy but it worked quite well.

[Zouave 58]

Back in the day when I was a skirmish shooter we used to grease the grooves with 2/3 beeswax 1/3 beef suet and fill the cavity with crisco. The crisco is unnecessary if you swab between shots. The purpose of the grease groove lube is to limit leading and the purpose of the crisco is to keep the fouling soft. I found a small but significant increase in accuracy in one of my muskets with the crisco in the base due to what I believe is a hydraulic effect forcing the minnie skirt to uniformly expand into the bore if the minnie starts out way undersized. The closer one can get to a minnie sized to just slip fit in the bore the better the accuracy seems to be.

[dromia]

I just get a dollop of udder cream on the boolit before loading.

[beroen]

Bore butter easy peazy

[curator]

The Enfield rifle was designed to shoot a .545 smooth-sided Pritchet bullet paper patched up to .577 and dipped in bee's wax lube. There was a wooden plug in the base cavity to facilitate expansion into the grooves. Most American (Union) minie' bullets were swaged from pure lead and lightly coated with various thin waxes. This "coating" was to prevent oxidation in storage, not to prevent leading. The grooves on the bullet's sides were referred to as "scrapers" and were not filled with lube. When I can wipe the bore with a damp patch after each shot, I have found the Lee tumble lube alone to work very well. When several shots are expected and no time to wipe the bore between, I fill the base with a 50/50 bee's wax/lard (or Crisco) lube and blast away. The extra lube keeps the fouling soft so the gun can be reloaded repeatedly without cleaning but is a bit messy. Bare-sided and unlubed minie' bullets will NOT lead your bore using black powder contrary to conventional "wisdom." Generally speaking, my 3-groove Springfield and Enfield rifles shoot a bit more accurately with little to no lube. Recently switching to Olde Eynsford 1.5 Fg, I am able to shoot 60 grain bare-bullet charges 10 to 12 times without wiping the bore because it burns so much cleaner than the standard Goex FFg I had been using.

[carbine]

For what it is worth, the N-SSA shoots a fair number of Minies each year. Many folks use the Red Capplug tubes, they measure the powder, out it in the tube, seal it with the bare minie, then using the tube, dunk it into melted lube. Nothing goes into the base. There are other methods, your milage may vary

[Nobade]

I dip lube mine with gatofeo #1 and let 'em dry. 25 or more shots are easy without wiping the bore. Nothing in the base.

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Duncan, (I assume you mean .577)
I think most any lube will work including any of the recipes for dip lube. Much of the idea of Minié lube is to keep fouling soft for repeated loading and firing without having to swab between shots. No problem trying various combinations to see what works best for you. Most of the time I just place an open container of Crisco on the bench and apply to the outside of the ball with my fingers. During really hot weather I use a similar lube that is stiffer and is a simple mix of beeswax and Crisco.

Most of the original "arsenal" type lubes for Miniés I see reference to are some combination of lard (tallow) and beeswax.

[jonk]

I am a skirmisher and shoot probably a thousand minies a year. Some of my guns shoot better with a lubed base, some not; but in all cases I lube the sides with a good black powder lube, either SPG or 50/50 beeswax/crisco. Personally I use an RCBS lube sizer. RCBS doesn't make dies in the proper diameter, but S and S firearms does, as does Lodgewood Mfg.

Do note, that whatever method you choose, you must use dead soft lead, and size your bullets 1-2/1000" under bore diameter. Don't assume that because it's a .58 musket that a .575 Lyman mold will get you going. You really need a plug gauge, or to slug the bore. On a musket, you can do this by taking an oversized Minie, tapping it in to start with a hammer, then pulling out by the nose with pliers, and measure the base.

Now that you have the gun, next step is to figure that out and buy a mold that is suitable. I find that with my Enfield, it likes the RCBS Hodgdon .580, sized to .577, over either 48 gr of 3F powder or 55 gr of 2F powder.

[bedbugbilly]

Try different lube methods and see what works best for you. I've shot rifled-musket for 50+ years and used to shoot N-SSA years ago. All I've ever done is use Crisco in the base and never had a problem. Years ago, I used heavy paper/light cardboard tubes for pre-measured charges and then inserted the minie ball in upside down. Then things got "high tech" and plastic loading tubes started showing up.

Everyone has their own methods of lubing - I always found just a dab of Crico int he base was a whole lot less messy than trying to remove a minie lubed in the grooves on the skirmish line where you were shooting a number of rounds for a timed event. In the end, YMMV but don't "over think" it. The purpose of the lube is to keep the fouling soft in order to make multiple shots without a problem in getting loading another round.

Good luck and enjoy that new rifle!

[fouronesix]

Forgot to mention. If you haven't purchased a mold yet, as others have said, pay attention to the design and diameter. If your bore is close to .577... that is a plus as it will allow for more options for a correct sized Minié. I have tried the Lee designs but they never shot very well. I've had much better results with the RCBS N-S design and the more traditional Lyman.

[Motor]

Bore butter easy peazy

Like the post I quoted, I coat them with bore butter.

I have also used Lee's A-Lox lube. I do the 50cal. 250gr REAL bullet with it and it works just fine. I shoot these from a side lock long gun and sized to .501" from a .500 S&W revolver. :)

[ColColt]

I'd be buying them minies rather than cast for them. U have an old 70's Navy Arms Zouave 58 cal and can tell you straight up casting those big 510 gr mini balls(conical really) is no fun. You have to get the cherry as got or hotter than the mould before the inside of the skirt will fill out and not produce voids and wrinkles. A real PITA to cast those bullets.

[smilin jack]

ColColt, I agree the Minnie mold (Lyman 577611) is hard to cast with but can be done with plenty of work. Mine throws 510 grain slugs.
I turn up the Lee electric pot full hot. There is a DIY extension, holding the pot about 2 inches higher than stock above the base plate. This allows the hollow base plug and mold to slide under the pouring spigot on the bottom of the pot. The pour spigot hole has been slightly enlarged to speed the flow. This may be the best improvement.
10 pounds of pure lead sweetened with a large wheel weight seems to help fill out the mold. The slugs still mushroom OK for hunting. One cow elk and one buck have fallen to the Navy Arms Hawken Hunter with a nice charge of Goex 3fff.
I put a 1/8" lubed felt wad over the powder, lube the minnie grooves and base with Bore Butter, then put a 0.625" diameter card wad on top the slug to hold in place. It shoots to POA with a clean barrel. The shots go a hand span low with a dirty barrel.
My Lyman Black powder handbook gives lots of loads for this rifle. Got the kit back in the 70's, finished it and had the barrell hot blued at a local shop. Been using it to hunt and rendezvous trail shoots.
Dave

[ColColt]

I remember reading somewhere back in the 70's where Val Forgett took an elephant with the Hawken. I forget the bullet but it wasn't the standard minie bullet...weighed a bit more. If a 520 gr bullet from a 45-70 can penetrate a buffalo I can see how the minie could drop an elephant. Wish I could recall the charge he used but it was something like 140 gr, IIRC.

[fouronesix]

I remember reading somewhere back in the 70's where Val Forgett took an elephant with the Hawken. I forget the bullet but it wasn't the standard minie bullet...weighed a bit more. If a 520 gr bullet from a 45-70 can penetrate a buffalo I can see how the minie could drop an elephant. Wish I could recall the charge he used but it was something like 140 gr, IIRC.

The load used in the 58 cal heavy gun was 180 gr FFF under a 610 gr Minié.
The load used in the 58 cal light gun was 125 gr FFF under the same 610 gr Minié.

That article appears in the 1975 edition of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. The story is laced with misleading if not downright false info. In 1973, when the hunt took place in Tanzania, the author states it was probably the first time an elephant had been taken by a "rifled" muzzleloader in the last 100 years (as if a "rifled" muzzleloader made it more of an accomplishment!) Bull poo. Hunters and poachers have taken (and cripple and lose a large percentage by the way) all the major big game, including elephants, in Africa with AKs and muzzleloaders rifled or not. This has been going on continuously ever since muzzleloaders and blackpowder were introduced to the continent. While poachers commonly use AKs if available, many still use muzzleloaders.

The story has all the smell of a cover for a "stunt hunt" from the get go. Many people still think Forgett "dropped" the bull elephant with a muzzleloader firing a heavy Minié over a heavy charge of black powder out of a heavy "Hawken". More poo! A backup gunner had to use a 458 mag to kill it after being hit with the muzzleloader.

The hippo kill in the story was typical of poor shooting, poor accuracy or poor shot placement. Hippos are usually shot in the water and clean kills require very precise shooting to hit the brain case. The first shot at 60 yards was anything but perfect- through the lower neck and jaw and required follow up shots to finish off the hippo that was wildly thrashing around in the water.

There are other errors in the story with nonsense embellishments obviously designed to cater to the uneducated or at least gullible masses about hunting big game in Africa with a muzzleloader…. to make such hunting sound even more "macho". Like the statement about the weight of an average male Cape Buffalo being 4000-5000 pounds (associated with the part of the story about killing a Cape Buffalo with a muzzleloader). Obviously a false statement to embellish the "feat"- good grief! I'll guarantee a 1500 pound (average adult male) Cape Buffalo is all anyone wants to dink around with using even a modern medium to large bore dangerous game rifle and modern ammo.

Sometimes facts are uncomfortable.

[ColColt]

Well, I reckon that's what I get for believing what I read. I met Val Forgett at a gun show in Charlotte, NC around 1972 and he didn't seem the type to spin tales but I guess looks are deceiving.

[fouronesix]

Should be put in context. At that time, Forgett was likely trying to increase market interest in muzzleloading given that Navy Arms (Forgett) was the leader in the re-birth of interest in muzzleloaders and muzzleloader hunting.

[ColColt]

At the time I met him I had just bought one of his 58 cal Zouaves and was asking him about how much powder could safely be put in the barrel. He told me as long as there was still enough room to seat the bullet it was safe. I didn't take that to heart, naturally. I did get up to 140 gr before I called it quits. When the hammer re-cocked itself I knew that was a far as I needed to go.

[joatmon]

Just wondering fouronesix where your info comes from?

Thanks Aaron

[fouronesix]

Just wondering fouronesix where your info comes from?

Thanks Aaron

Specifically what info or facts are in question?

The story by Forgett is in print form for anyone to read. I have it in hand (have had it since 1975) and I can read. The Navy Arms company history is well known and can be found in many sources.

The Africa info is based on my first hand experiences in Africa, including dangerous game hunting and dealing directly with other hunters, government officials, locals, farmers/ranchers/game preserve operators and poachers. Plus the experiences of PH friends who live there and whose families have lived there for generations.

If those info sources are not acceptable, you'll have to do the research independently and spend no small amount of time and effort to gain the direct experience.

[fouronesix]

At the time I met him I had just bought one of his 58 cal Zouaves and was asking him about how much powder could safely be put in the barrel. He told me as long as there was still enough room to seat the bullet it was safe. I didn't take that to heart, naturally. I did get up to 140 gr before I called it quits. When the hammer re-cocked itself I knew that was a far as I needed to go.

I'd say 140 gr is a little much for any kind of .577-58 musket. Those type charges are best left to thick barrel wall muzzleloaders like the heavy "Hawken" style guns shooting a specially designed heavy skirt Minié or solid base conical- not any kind of reproduction musket or rifled musket. I don't know what the Italian proof loads were for the muskets Navy Arms was selling- but I'll guarantee they weren't even close to the "fill the bore if you like" statement! They may have been something like a double charge (120-140 gr) of BP under a heavy bullet of some kind or double charge under possibly two bullets???

As to the OP- heavy loads are not what the muskets were or are intended to shoot and won't shoot them very well anyway. They are capable of fine accuracy IF they are loaded to reasonable levels- like a hollow base pure lead Minié of good design, lubed with a soft lube, sized from bore diameter to no smaller than .002" less than bore diameter, over a charge of about 50-55 gr FF blackpowder. Heavy charges will yield heavy recoil, may damage the gun, will foul more quickly, may strip the Minié right through the first few inches of the shallow rifling and will blow the skirt.

[joatmon]

Not trying to disagree, wish I'd put the question in a PM. It's hard to ask a question on line and make it come out right for me sometimes. I was wondering about the 458mag part and the hippo part mostly.I like to read about such and was just looking for a source.

Thanks Again Aaron

[fouronesix]

Not trying to disagree, wish I'd put the question in a PM. It's hard to ask a question on line and make it come out right for me sometimes. I was wondering about the 458mag part and the hippo part mostly.I like to read about such and was just looking for a source.

Thanks Again Aaron

No problem. Thread drift for sure but the subject was started and needed addressing.

The 458 was used to kill the elephant. The Forgett story goes something like this. He shot the elephant aiming for a side brain shot. He expected the animal to drop at the shot but when the smoke cleared, the elephant was wheeling around and came on a charge. One of the backup gunners (apparently there were 2) fired using a 458 and the elephant dropped. They dug the muzzleloader bullet out of the skull or head and discovered it had penetrated 15" of porous bone. Then went on to insinuate- "if" this, that or the other would have happened the muzzleloader "would have" been perfectly suited for killing an elephant… OK??? But, 15" penetration on a correctly placed side brain shot would have easily penetrated the brain and the animal would have gone straight down. Reading between the lines I can only assume the shot was not correct and the bullet ended up somewhere in the head. Additionally, in the caption accompanying the 2 photos of the dead bull, it states the bull weighed about 8 tons. Yet another probably gross embellishment or intentional false statement simply to enhance the story. Those photos show an average bull of not much age with obviously narrow head and very little heavy bone definition in the skull. Probably in the range of half the weight stated…. at most 8000-9000 lbs…. not the 8 tons (16000 lbs) as printed in the caption.

Kind of the same scenario with the shot on the hippo. The story mentioned "stalking" and waiting for the shot. Well, normally the pods are spotted from a distance. Hippos usually spend the entire daylight in deeper water pools or on adjacent sandbars in rivers during the day. Then what little "stalking" is done amounts to sneaking or crawling up to the river bank edge overlooking the pod. Then waiting for ID of a good bull and setting up for a good shot to the brain from a solid rest above the hippo. That first shot was obviously poor and required an unknown number of follow up shots to finish the job.

What some PHs and "video ranger hunters" do these days for "enhancing" the danger or glamour of hippo hunting is to try to catch them on land as they return to the water after feeding all night. They usually return to the water before sun up each morning. Given the size and nature of hippos on land (where they feel vulnerable) they are usually defensive and many times charge, so provide a good "show" for the videos or later stories. The ethical PHs I know have no interest in such contrived stunts.

[joatmon]

Thanks for the info! Having never hunted Africa I do read a lot about it and think 'ONE DAY' but we'll see.

Thanks Aaron

[fouronesix]

Thanks for the info! Having never hunted Africa I do read a lot about it and think 'ONE DAY' but we'll see.

Thanks Aaron

Absolutely keep it in mind. Africa is not for everyone and the type of hunting there varies tremendously. Do the homework and dig deeper than the sales pitches. I've noticed that it does continue to get more and more expensive if for no other reason than continued supply and demand forces. Politically, each country and region seem in continual flux. The trends seem more and more restrictive, so the supply-demand principle keeps nudging prices higher and higher. Some hunts, in say Namibia or much of South Africa, are relatively straight forward, controlled and well organized. Some areas/concessions in a few countries are fairly remote and very large, can include many unknowns and are better suited to one wanting a little more "adventure". Most hunters who go for a "once in a lifetime" experience, who have a good trip, start planning how to pay for the next "once in a lifetime" trip before they even leave Africa. :)

FYI- One Africa hunt video I recommend is by Rainer Josch in Tanzania. I have little use for most hunting videos these days, but this one is excellent. It was filmed in 2010 and follows 3 buffalo hunters. Available through safari press. "Buffalo Hunters, the Mountain Challenge- Part 1". There is another similar one by Josch done a couple of years earlier, but IMO, not as good as this one. Here's a link to Hatari Productions site- then click on the above mentioned 5 minute trailer.
http://www.hatariproductions.com/index.php?id=3

[heelerau]

I have just purchase a Pedersoli 2 band Enfield in .557" and intend to shoot minié bullets. Some videos on YouTube show the hollow base being filled with lube/grease before loading, others load as cast with a lube coating in the grooves.
I don't see the need to fill the cavity but, as always, there will be pros & cons.......What do you think?
Mate I just dip the minnie bullets into a standard British Army mix of 5 parts beeswax to 1 of unsalted lard by volume. You want a bullet that is just about bore size, a nice slip fit, if it has a light skirt as some of the lee minnie bullets are, a charge of about 55 grains of FFg black, so you don't rupture the skirt, if you are using a heavy skirted bullet I use 75 grains of FFg black. I don't put lube into the base cavity, and I run the freshly greased bullets through a lube size die just to get the excess lube off. Off the bench at 50 yds using the latter load I can regularly shoot a 98 on a 50yd pistol target. My PH Navy 2 bander has been bedded and the lock tuned about 30 odd years ago.

Cheers and good luck

Heelerau

[Zouave 58]

In regard to the comment about filling the bore with powder; back in the time frame of the 60-70's it was generally believed that there was a theoretical maximum of powder that would burn within the barrel and the unburned surplus would be expelled out the muzzle. It was therefor thought that you couldn't over charge a musket causing the barrel to burst so long as you had a single projectile that was seated on the powder column. Of course, any air gap between the bullet and the powder was going to potentially ring the barrel or cause a barrel burst. I don't know of any testing that has been done to substantiate the theory other than a couple of articles in Muzzle Blasts that touched on it. Love to know what you-all think.

[Geezer in NH]

I saw an experiment done on a GM barrel breech plugged both ends of a 36" barrel 50 caliber filled to max with 3ffg, drilled flash hole with a fuse for firing. Many years ago. EVERY bit of pressure went out the vent.

This was done before the barrel went into production. No internet , No computer calculations (what's a computer remember the age) The barrel measured the same after firing as before.

Location was Wonalancet NH part of Tamworth NH

[Nobade]

I can believe it. Just like a jumping jack firework.

-Nobade