What first rifle for my kids for deer hunting?

[Blammer]

How many times have you seen that question asked?

Several I'm sure.

I too have responded in kind to the poster question based on what I thought, my experience with certain calibers, recoil, rifle type size length, wt etc...

Most of my suggestions have been based on what I envisioned my kids shooting and what they could handle.
You know, load down a 308 with 125gr bullets, or load down the 7-08 with 120's or somthing of that ilk. Make sure the stock fits, good recoil pad, bla bla bla.


Now the rubber meets the road.

My brother has some property to hunt on, and our whole family is getting together for the week.

Me, my kids, my brother his family (of course, his house...) and my parents.

Since my Dad and I and my brother are all hunting the excitement has naturally spilled over into the kids.

My son and daughter both want to go. Naturally I can only take one at a time, and they understand that, but the lurking question is, what rifle?

After discounting the 458 Lott, and going down in caliber until something suitable and reasonable started to appear. I landed on a few different calibers and rifle choices that are not common and most likely few would have as a choice.

I have the standard 30-06, 308, 7-08, 223 (223 is legal here btw) to choose from. I originally thought the 308 with appropriate loads or the 7-08 would be a nice rifle for them. Was going to use my 223, but don't have any loads developed for it, and the straight 10x scope on it may be difficult for new shooters when the deer is 40 yds away... my other 223 has open sights and that takes some practice to use on an AR. Low light would be a problem too. Scopes are the way to go for sure.

Son shot the 7-08 with mild 154 gr bullets, and didn't hate it, but didn't like it. It was his first time shooting a "high powered" rifle, so his experience on recoil is pretty small. He could manage it ok and it would work just fine for him. It rocked him pretty good, as he is all of 85 lbs and skinny as a bean pole. I got to thinking about my daughter and she is just as slender if not more so due to her height and weights all of 95lbs soaking wet. She too is not a fan of recoil. Noise is no problem as they shoot my blank 308 ammo and love it, no recoil but really loud! (hearing protection is a must, it's the blue ammo blanks you can buy that shoot the blue plastic bullet)

Now I got to thinking of my "alternative" rifles that are custom that may work.

The first one that popped into my mind was my AR in 25 WSSM. A bit stout in the recoil dept so the RAR in 7-08 would be a better choice.
I also have a 25-223 in an AR, this is what I went with.

In a nutshell it's a 223 case necked up to 25 cal. It shoots a 100gr bullet at 2500fps or so, dead nuts accurate, and your standard AR 15 recoil. (basically not much)

My AR has a collapsible stock so it's adjustable. Nice hand grips for the kids and they seem to like the looks of it. :)

So when we hit the deer woods that is what we'll be taking.

yea, I never guessed that would be the one I would wind up using.

On the flip side, if I didn't have it, I'd have a good reason to go get a 22" stainless RAR in 243 win... (well that may just show up anyway's...)

[dragon813gt]

Some areas by me are shotgun only. I "fondly" remember having to sight in a twelve gauge slug gun while I weighed all of 95 pounds. Talk about almost ruining me for life :laugh:

There is never one answer. The rifle you chose wouldn't be an option because semis are not allowed. My 14yo step daughter will be shooting my 1894C as it's the softest shooting rifle I own. As much as I tried to convince her she "needed" to shoot the Mosin she wouldn't bite.

[DougGuy]

Take what they can shoot most accurately! Caliber, velocity, or recoil don't matter a whit if it's not a good shot. Also, you could teach them that once they are sighted on a deer, they won't even notice the recoil or much less the noise! Funny how that works! Good luck either way!

[pjames32]

I've been helping a friend with his 2 grandsons who drew a youth cow elk hunt in December. He bought them both 7-08 rifles. I loaded some 120gr loads to 2400 fps to start, then we moved to 140gr loads at 2400fps. The boys weight 80 & 90lbs and so far are doing well with the loads. I plan to load some 160gr heavier loads for the hunt and I will sight in the guns before we go so they will not know til they shoot at an elk.

[Echo]

What comes to my mind is a Handi-Rifle in 30-30. Complete with scope, could be done for less than $300 (maybe), and serve for years.

[michiganmike]

My first thought is to buy a Ruger American in 7mm-08 IF you reload. Then roll you own for your kids using a reduced load with a jacketed 130 gr. of your choice, or a cast bullet. My Ruger M77 loves the Lyman 150 grain bullet (#287407). Casting with wheel weights it drips 145-146 grain bullets.

This bullet at around 1600 fps is very accurate for me and has VERY little recoil.

[DougGuy]

That Ruger American might be a little long in the stock for kids. Got to figure a winter coat needs a shorter stock too. A HR doesn't offer a follow-up shot.

[GhostHawk]

I agree with Echo except the list of calibers should include .357 and .44 mag along with his dirty thirty.

All 3 would be low on recoil from a handi rifle, and you have a very good teaching tool, and learning tool as well.

I started out on a .410 mossberg bolt action shooting slugs and after a few years said SCREW the recoil, give me a gun that will kill something!

So the next day my dad and I went up to the local gun shop and we decided on a 20 gauge Remington 870 with an inch cut off its stock.

I still have it, 2 other 870 Wingmasters in 12 and 16, and yes the much hated much sworn at .410 too.

If a young shooter has their eyes full of deer they won't much notice the recoil.

But I do believe that too much gun is just as bad or worse than too little.

[RickinTN]

I did exactly what your first "hunch" was. I started my oldest on a Remington Model Seven in .308 Winchester. I used 150 grain 30-30 bullets and a reduced load of Alliant 2400 for just over 2,000 fps. Several deer fell to that combination. I have started others with the 7-08 in a custom Ruger 77 that is just a little heavier than a model Seven. I used either 120 or 125 grain bullets for this cartridge in the low 2,000 fps range and the deer were also very dead. If I'm not mistaken I have a small stash of the Nosler 7mm 120 grain flat point bullet designed for the 7-30 Waters I've been saving for such an occasion to arise. I think if you drop the bullet weight in the 7-08 down to 120 grains and the velocity to around 2,500 or fewer fps. your son will find it pretty comfortable. I will be happy to send you enough for load testing and hunting if you would like. I also have some scarce but published data for each cartridge for these weights and velocities.
Let me know if you would like some,
Rick

[Blammer]

thanks, but I too have some of the Nosler 120gr FP's. :)

plus, I have the NOE 7mm Hunter. :) At reduced loads and 75 yds or less it should do dandy. Problem is, I don't have time to develop a load with it before the 24th.

I'm thinking the AR in 25-223 will do fine this year.

[lbaize3]

Have you considered a hand rifle in 243 shooting a 55 grain bullet. Sold a bunch to parents with first time hunting kids. Most came back to tell me that the combination was soft recoiling and deadly on our small Texas deer.

[Blammer]

Most of my experience with NEF rifles has told me that they kick much worse than other type of rifles even with reduced loads. So, no I have not messed with them for my kids.

I have an NEF 243 barrel I'll sell.

[popper]

Got 2 of those stick GKs with Weatherby 243s. Good shooting rifle but hard to find 90 gr. ammo. I think the bigger/slower is better for the new hunters. Most won't take shots at greater than 50 yds.

[Artful]

I'm thinking the AR in 25-223 will do fine this year.

Ah but what about next year?

My first deer rifle was Mauser 7x57 - only factory ammo was 175 RN - it killed fine - on both ends...

Much happier with handloads with 139 grain bullets and recoil pad and scope added to it.

It was a learning project for me. I like a simple bolt action for newbie's and like the bargin you get
when you pick up a nice used "sporterized" surplus rifle. Pick up an extra stock so you can fit the rifle
to them at present size and then add spacers as they grow into the original stock.
Mauser, Mosin, SMLE, doesn't matter as if you handload it adjusted to what they can take as far as recoil.
Heck you could even do Father, Son, Daughter - AR build party - parts are going to be cheapish for next year
or so I'd think.

[longranger]

Ruger American in 300BLK and never look back,wish it was around when my kids were learning to hunt.Very tolerable recoil even for the smallest shooter and .308 bullets,and the benefit of sub sonic's if you choose.

[dragon813gt]

Ruger American in 300BLK and never look back,wish it was around when my kids were learning to hunt.Very tolerable recoil even for the smallest shooter and .308 bullets,and the benefit of sub sonic's if you choose.

Where can you buy one? Just had my dealer check on Monday and they aren't available as of yet.

[220]

Started my son deer hunting with a 30/30, LOP is already shorter than most bolts recoil isn't excessive and even less running slightly reduced loads with 160gr FTX at around 2100fps.
Bit of practice shooting it from field positions to give him confidence and we were set to go.

Didn't take him long to progress to bigger cals, purchased a 375H&H a year ago when he was 16, shoots it very well and uses it on everything from rabbits up.

[butch2570]

I shot many deer with my mothers marlin varmint king, 222 remington while I was younger, and only lost one buck with that rifle it worked fine as long as there was not a bunch of brush involved. When I turned 16 I bought myself a Rem 760 in a '06 ' ( dug ginseng and picked up pop cans) and have never looked back, that being said the 25-223 or a 223 will work fine until they get a little bigger.

[runfiverun]

good choice.

when my girls were smaller I started them on the 308, first with cast using 4895 then moved them to jacketed loads and kept bumping them up as they got bigger and could handle it.
the oldest girl ended up with a sporterized 7.7jap rifle, and littlegirl ended up with a 7.65 argie.
they have free pick of my rifles for hunting season, and they do pick through them [littlegirl usually takes my ruger tang safety in 7x57, and the oldest picked out my model-70 257 Roberts featherweight this year]
they still take their own rifle out at least a few day's every year.

[jsizemore]

The 25-223 with 100gr bullets sounds about perfect.

I got a load for a 7-08 in a Rem model 7 set up for close cover 100 yards or less. Shoots a Nosler 120gr BT @ 2600fps. 38.7 gr of VVN-135. Very low recoil. That velocity worked great in an XP-100 so it had to be good in the model 7.

I hope ya'll see plenty of deer. Good Luck.

[wv109323]

My daughter bought a Remington 770 in .243 win. At Wa-mart for $279.00.

[375supermag]

Hi...

When my son turned 12 years old, I bought him a .25-06 for whitetail and black bear.
I was a bit concerned that anything from a .270 on up might be just a bit too much recoil.
He is nearly 21 years old now and shoots several different rifles up to 7mm Mag.
He keeps looking at a stainless Tikka in 300Mag as his next rifle, so starting him off with a medium- bore seems to have got him started off on the right foot, so to speak.

[Houndog]

I know not many people have the equipment to do it, but I built my Grandson a model 7 Remington in 25BR. The rifle including a Leupold 2X7 scope weighs just under 6 pounds loaded! We load a Nosler 85gr Balistic tip over a a charge of AA2520 for 2800Fs. The first Deer shot with this rifle was 385 yards away measured with a range finder! Think of it as a really short 257 Roberts.

Lots of folks ask why such an oddball chambering?
First off it's extremely accurate
Second He WILL have to learn to not only reload but also reform brass
Third, it's odd enough he'd have a heck of a time selling it if he ever wanted to
Fourth Papaw Likes playing with chamberings most people never heard of and everybody will remember when they see one

[DIRT Farmer]

I started all three of my kids on the Thompson Center Seneca 45. They started with round balls and 25 grains of powder. By their first deer season I was loading a Maxie ball and 35 grains of powder. At 75 yards it would punch through both sides of a deer. To bad good optiond no longer exist on the black powder side commerical side.

[MaryB]

While .223 might be legal if the deer are larger like here in SW Minnesota(200 pound does are common, we had a buck break 300 pounds one year) it takes a very accurate shot placement. Not something I would start kids with. Need to put the deer down so they do not get discouraged or wound and lose one and give up.

[country gent]

Sporterized an AK for a friends boy in upper michigan rifle zones. Cheap practice ammo available military surpluss and Handloads for hunting. 7.62 X39 has light recoil and with 125 grn or so soft point bullets [placed correctly is very affective. The rifle is short light and esy for smaller hunters to handle. We up graded the sights to a ghost ring on the reciever and a lolly pop front turned up to fit in existing ring. removed bayonet and its mount, tuned trigger a little and refinished the wood. He took deer every year with it until he moved up to a larger caliber. With the change in the sights and tuned trigger that little rifle would really shoot nice groups for him. Its also been loaned to a couple nieghbors children to learn to shoot and hunt now. Not the prettiest but is functional and effective

[richhodg66]

I started #1 son with a Remington Model 7 youth in .260. #2 son shoots left handed and the only maker at that time of left handed youth bolt action rifles was Savage. They had a package deal of their 110 in .223, 7mm-08 or .308, so I got one in .308 and per Hogdon's youth loads, used 125 grain jacketed and 37 grains of 4895. Low recoil, great accuracy and killed deer as fast as a full power .30-06. It's still the load he favors shooting.

If I were gonna start a kid and I handloaded, I'd find a bolt action .308 with a stock that fit and load just such rounds.

[dakotashooter2]

It seems to me that the 300 BLK is just a 30-30 class cartridge that will work in a semi auto platform.

I started my son with the 243 but if I had to do it over would probably go with a downloaded 7mm-08 or 308.

[MaryB]

AR platform is so kid friendly and as they grow they can adjust it to fit. Major plus there plus the number of available calibers is huge. And if they play any video games it will be a cool factor thing for them... yeah I know... for us older folks who are not gamers it makes no sense.

[Hickok]

22/250. Broadside lung shots right behind the shoulder. Turns internal chest cavity into jello. Pin-point accurate, no recoil.

[butch2570]

While .223 might be legal if the deer are larger like here in SW Minnesota(200 pound does are common, we had a buck break 300 pounds one year) it takes a very accurate shot placement. Not something I would start kids with. Need to put the deer down so they do not get discouraged or wound and lose one and give up. Yeah, the West Virginia state record for firearms is about 185 ish B&C, I believe, killed here in my home county with 170 ish class deer killed a few times a year also 150 -160 class are quite common, 200 lb deer is common here also, I'm not saying a 222 or 223 is the perfect deer round, far from it . But I killed quite a few with mine and only lost one, a 55gr soft pt out to about 150 yds will put the smack down on a 200 lb deer. My son was about 10 years old when he killed his first 8 pt with 222 rem , about a 125 yd shot , broadside and it was DRT. For beginners ( me my son anyways) practice was paramount, no flinching and not being afraid of shooting the gun, when the moment comes I would rather have a 222 rem bullet through the vitals as opposed to 30 -30 in the guts because the child flinched from recoil expectations, IME.

[butch2570]

I'd say... whatever they can hold steady best, If I were in your shoes and considering a new rifle I'd probably go with Ruger American Compact, 18" bbl and 6 lbs, probably 243 with decent bullet like the 90 gr accubond. This is true also, a kid needs all the support they can get when shooting at animals, I taught mine to shoot prone off of his backpack when hunting, I still use this method today at my age , it will spell success for young kids when hunting, takes the wobble factor out.

[FLHTC]

It seems to me that the 300 BLK is just a 30-30 class cartridge that will work in a semi auto platform.


I wouldn't say "Just". It's being introduced by Ruger in an All American bolt gun with a MSRP of $450. An attractive price for a quality gun in that caliber. One will be in my safe soon.

[Blammer]

A really BIG deer here will top 150lbs... so 223 should do dandy.

[fatnhappy]

How old are your kids DJ? My son is 13 and fully able to precisely handle the recoil of the 7-08 with reduced loads. I moved him up to full power loads this year and so far so good.

I don't mean to rain on your parade buddy, but I feel an 11th hour search can be bad juju. Ideally, development of the markmanship skills should have taken place over the preceding couple of years. Have they been practicing point of aim and dry fire exercises on replica targets? What's you confidence level that they know where to aim for odd shot angles? Have they been out with you and seen the kills or helped you butcher your deer so they're familiar with the shot placement?

Please don't read this the wrong way, I'm all for taking kids hunting. Unless you can answer the above questions positively I suggest they go as observers until they've witnessed a couple kills. God forbid, they wound a deer the first time out. That might cause irrepairable harm to their hunting ambitions.

Flame on.

[Blammer]

Dean no problem or insults here. Good points and questions too.
Son is 11, Daughter is 13
My kids have been with me deer hunting and I actually got one. We've been squirrel hunting a bunch. They shoot the 22's easy enough, and have tons of practice with their BB guns in the back yard range. (the bottle of 6,000 BB's is gone) They are basically familiar where to aim on a deer. I taught them to aim between the front legs of the squirrel for a good chest shot, no matter how the squirrel was lined up. Same theory for a deer.

Both kids are familiar with deer anatomy as they've helped me process (and field gut one) all that I've gotten home.

[John Allen]

My first was a marlin 336 30/30 great gun I would say starter gun but I still use it.

[Quiettime]

AR platform is so kid friendly and as they grow they can adjust it to fit. Major plus there plus the number of available calibers is huge...

ABSOLUTELY! No reason you can't hunt with AR (If it's legal where you live). .300 BLK would be perfect or a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC for a little more power.

Light weight, accurate, fast follow up shots, 6 position adjustable stock, factory pistol grip is right for small hands and there's bigger ones available for under $30 as he grows.

Perfect.

[btroj]

My daughter was 13 when she got her first deer. Load was a reduced charge of 4895 with a 130 Hornady. Velocity was around 2200 fps and it shot well. Recoil was manageable for her. I also got bipod long enough to use sitting to make a good shot easier.

[fatnhappy]

Dean no problem or insults here. Good points and questions too.
Son is 11, Daughter is 13
My kids have been with me deer hunting and I actually got one. We've been squirrel hunting a bunch. They shoot the 22's easy enough, and have tons of practice with their BB guns in the back yard range. (the bottle of 6,000 BB's is gone) They are basically familiar where to aim on a deer. I taught them to aim between the front legs of the squirrel for a good chest shot, no matter how the squirrel was lined up. Same theory for a deer.

Both kids are familiar with deer anatomy as they've helped me process (and field gut one) all that I've gotten home.

I was hoping you'd take it that way. The written word so poorly conveys my meaning. I'm relieved to hear they've enjoyed the benefit of experience afield. It so much sounded much like their desire was an impulsive matter. Then again, read my second sentence.


For the record, you know how I feel about the 7-08 and similar cartridges with reduced loads. A 120 grain bullet at 2200 isn't a love tap.

[skeettx]

Remington 788 in 30-30

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=453230898

Mike

[7br]

When your kids drop the hammer on a deer, I would imagine they could handle the recoil of the 458 lott just fine. It is getting the practice in with light loads that is important. I never hear the shot or feel the recoil when I am hunting. Just one of those weird things that my mind does when I actually concentrate. SQUIRREL...

[smokesahoy]

I'm using a 223 this year. It's just a handy light woods gun. Using Sierra game kings in 65 grains over 25.5 TAC the gun is totally practical for shots out to a bit over 100 yards. If not further, but there is no way I'd get that range in the forest. People pooh pooh it all the time, but with a hunting bullet sitting on a hunting load in a platform/caliber that allows you to place the lead precisely there really is no good reason not to use it at the appropriate ranges. Plinking in the forest I have put these rounds through 6" diameter hardwoods. When my daughter is old enough to come I know what she'll be carrying.

[MarkP]

The 25-223 sounds like an excellent choice. I have an XP-100 in 6-223 it has killed a few deer and antelope using Hornady 80 gr SSP (single shot pistol) bullets. I think they have dicontinued these perhaps only temporarily. But the 25-223 should be a great little deer round.

My daughter has a 243 Win, she has been shooting it since she was 8 yrs old with Trailboss and 95 & 75 gr boolits; for hunting I loaded thinner jacketed 87 gr bullets with SR4759. She is 10 yrs old now and 85 lbs. I sighted her gun in with the hunting loads.

As others mentioned long eye relief is a great option to have.

[ohland]

thanks, but I too have some of the Nosler 120gr FP's. :)

Well, we were planning on using the Nosler Ballistic Tip Hunting Bullet Part# 28120, Spitzer Point / Red Tip again this year in our 7-30 Waters G2 Contenders. That may not happen this year due to a nasty fall on the ice this (dark) early morning...

BUT... The 357 Max (nice re-chamber for a suitable 357 Mag) will do everything to 150 yards, and with proper bullet, I daresay 200 yards (no experience, but big boolits at moderate velocity = deer).

The 7-08 with 120s should rock your world out to 250 yards plus.