38 spl, How low can i go?

[jeepyj]

I'm trying to develop the lightest load I can for a 38 spl. The idea is to help keep peace at one of the places I shoot. The mould is Lyman 358345, a great little 115gr boolit that data is quite sparse for, at least for the 38. So far the lowest I've dared to go is 2.0 grains of Bullseye in which is traveling an average of 607fps out of my 6.5" Blackhawk. This was a recent chrono test I did testing for groups and such. I wouldn't say it's the tightest groups I've ever shot but were quite respectable. This will simply be a tin can plinker when all is said and done.
This data came from an trashcan wadcutter in an old Lyman manual. Any other members with thoughts on this boolit?
jeepyj

[paul h]

I haven't had the chance to try that in a revolver, but when I was fiddling with "cat sneeze" loads in my 35 whelen and 148 wc's I was using a 22rf case that was cut down to about 1/8" long before the bullets would stick in the bore. You could probably go a bit lower, but beware at some point you'll be sticking bullets in the bore, though if you cast soft it's not a big deal to drive one out. Also with my cat sneeze loads I was using a dab of tp to keep the powder over the primer, something to consider when dropping way down.

If you can live with the report and accuracy of the 2 gr loads I'd call it good.

[leeggen]

til you start sticking the boolits in the barrel then move up alittle. I know this isn't load data but evry barrel has its point.
CD

[dragon813gt]

til you start sticking the boolits in the barrel then move up alittle. I know this isn't load data but evry barrel has its point.
CD

Yep, just have a squib rod handy. I found how low I can go w/ W231 in A 6" 586.

[35remington]

Merely tip the barrel up before firing to position the powder near the primer. A lot of case space is inevitable with light bullets in the 38, even with wadcutters if they are light.

At the Lincoln Parks and Rec range they offered a load very similar to yours.....a short wadcutter.....with a charge I identified as very similar to about 2 grains Bullseye. At least, the powder looked exactly like Bullseye, and I have been around enough Bullseye to know. You had to buy the load from them and turn in the cases when you were done. This was to prevent damage to a backstop that was intended for 22's only, but the 38 shooters got to play with the light wadcutter and get some shooting in. It was an indoor (doublewide trailer, actually) 50 foot range.

Handloads were not allowed in 38's, nor any other ammo than what they provided. Yeah, I actually took a bullet puller to the range and tore down one of the rounds to see what it might be loaded with.

Sounds just like yours. The tuna can sized bullets shot very well at 50 feet.

[Hannibal]

I have it on what I consider sound advice that Bullseye works particularly well when trying to find loads that barely exit the barrel. My purpose was to inspect for base deformation on cast boolits.

[jeepyj]

I haven't had the chance to try that in a revolver, but when I was fiddling with "cat sneeze" loads in my 35 whelen and 148 wc's I was using a 22rf case that was cut down to about 1/8" long before the bullets would stick in the bore. You could probably go a bit lower, but beware at some point you'll be sticking bullets in the bore, though if you cast soft it's not a big deal to drive one out. Also with my cat sneeze loads I was using a dab of tp to keep the powder over the primer, something to consider when dropping way down.

If you can live with the report and accuracy of the 2 gr loads I'd call it good.

Interesting point with the TP. I also noticed at the time I was using the chrono that there was something like an 85fps spread on 12 rounds. 607 was my average. Seems like that would bring a bit more consistency to my load. Does anyone have thoughts on this?
jeepyj

[bedbugbilly]

What is the issue where you shoot? Noise or just the fact you're shooting?

If you want to try something different, try getting some 38 Colt Short cases and loading those. Yea, you'll have bullet jump from the short cartridge to the barrel but I shoot Colt Shorts a lot out of my 357 5 1/2 New Vaquero and 4 3/4 Uberti Bisley. I normally load a Lyman 311242 121 gr RN or a Lee 356-120-TC "as cast". I've been using 2.0 gr of Bulls Eye or 2.4 gr of Red Dot with either one. I don't know if it would cut down on the noise though if that is the issue. They work fairly well for just general plinking and can killing. Noise, etc. isn't a problem as I shoot on the farm so I haven't reduced those loads to see how far down I can go. And, I don't have a chronograph. Based on those loads with a 120 gr boolit - and I'm going by the Lyman data for the 38 Smith & Wesson cartridge which has a similar case size - the BE loads should be going around 560 - 600 FPS and the RD around 600 - 650 = but thus a guess on my part. Of course the shorter casing is going to give you less case volume so pressure is more than a 38 spl casing. I think you could reduce those charges a ways and still be fine.

I will also add that the above 38 Colt Short loads are nice to shoot out of a Smith J frame for plinking as well.

A standard set of 38 spl won't work on the 38 Colt Shorts/Longs. I now have a set of Lee dies just for them but before that, I sized in a Lee 38 spl carbide sizing die, slightly belled the mouth with a Lee universal expander die, seated with my 9mm seating die and then taper crimped with a 9mm taper crimp die. With the cartridge being what it is, a taper crimp will work fine - I just check them in a 38 spl cartridge gauge. 38 Colt Short Star Line brass is available through Track of the Wolf as well as others when they have it. A 100 casings should run around $19.00 or so.

As far as "squibs" - I can tell you that an uncharged casing with a CCI small pistol primer had no problems putting a .358 148 gr. WC just past the forcing cone in my Smith Model 36 snub. Just don't ask me how that all came about! If you keep dropping your grain weight, just make sure to check between shots to make sure it left the barrel. The best way is to just make up some batches and drop the grain weight and see when it causes a problem with your pistol. Then, increase the grain weight back up so you feel confident you won't get any.

Good luck and let us know how it goes for you.

[olafhardt]

Years ago I used to get remanufactered 38 special from Midway with 100 gr wc's. I think Blackhills made it.

[happy7]

I have done quite a bit of experimenting in this area. As was said, you can keep reducing the load till the bullet sticks in the barrel. However, there are a couple issues with that. My experience is that once you get under about roughly 500 fps, accuracy is not great, and only becomes worse as you get slower. Also, point of impact changes quite a bit.

A good crimp is important as it does improve the consistency of the burn, which becomes inconsistent at the lighter loads, at least in my experience.

Bullseye is a good powder for this, and before Trail Boss came out, this is what I used. I like Trail Boss better. It burns similar to Bullseye, but fills the case better (although at loads that low, the case is still basically empty), and also because of its low density, it is much easier to measure when you get to very low loads, like one grain, which some powder drops are not capable of measuring.

[WRideout]

One thing to keep in mind if you are using absolute lowest charge weight, is ambient temperature. As a former artillery man, I can tell you that propellant temperature has a great deal to do with chamber pressure. A load that does not stick on a warm day, may do so on a very cold day. FWIW.

Wayne

[Digital Dan]

Fella can sure find some benefit from light loads, but one needs to pay close attention...

121838

[osteodoc08]

8 rounds. Wow.

[rhbrink]

Ever think about trying round ball loads? Quiet, low recoil, accurate, cheap!

RB

[Char-Gar]

I can see the fun and benefit of using light loads in a 38 Special, but I don't think going to low as to flirt with a stuck bullet is all that smart. i would want the load to be sufficient to shove the bullet to the intended target regardless of ambient temp or muzzle position.

Last year in a rapid fire falling plate match, I had a "puffer" in my Douglas barrel match 22 LR pistol. This was followed with a full power load. I removed two bullets from the barrel. While the heavy bull barrel showed no enlargement on the outside, there is a shadow ring inside the barrel. I still use the pistol, but even a lowly 22 bullet stuck in the barrel can cause damage to the barrel.

[Outpost75]

Many years ago William Dresser wrote an article entitled "Minimum Loads In Handguns" in which he used soft-swaged 148-grain factory wadcutter bullets in the .38 Special, flush-seated, testing in a 6" K38 and also in a 2" snubby. The flush-seated wadcutters work best for this because they reduce the amount of free airspace in the case. Once you start taking conventional bullets and seating them out to a length of greater than about 1.25", you can get variations due to changes in powder positioning.

I have worked up minimum loads which give me good accuracy to 50 yards in my rook rifle, and which reliably and safely exit the rifle barrel. The lightest charge of current production Alliant Bullseye which accomplishes this is 2 grains when loading a soft-swaged hollow-based wadcutter flush to the case mouth, applying a normal taper crimp as you would use in an autoloading match pistol, or 2.5 grains when using 155-160 grain soft cast Cowboy style bullets seated to a length of 1.40" or greater to use in a lever-action rifle.

For very mild and light loads, I use the Fiocchi .380 Rimmed Short cases (0.687" long) measuring a nominal 1.7 grains of Bullseye using the #00 rotor with the RCBS Little Dandy powder measure, and I seat the Accurate .36-155D bullet to the crimp groove. These give about 600 fps to exit the rifle barrel reliably, and about 500 fps in revolvers OK at short steel plate ranges.
121873

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Many years ago William Dresser wrote an article entitled "Minimum Loads In Handguns" in which he used soft-swaged 148-grain factory wadcutter bullets in the .38 Special, flush-seated, testing in a 6" K38 and also in a 2" snubby. The flush-seated wadcutters work best for this because they reduce the amount of free airspace in the case. Once you start taking conventional bullets and seating them out to a length of greater than about 1.25", you can get variations due to changes in powder positioning.

I have worked up minimum loads which give me good accuracy to 50 yards in my rook rifle, and which reliably and safely exit the rifle barrel. The lightest charge of current production Alliant Bullseye which accomplishes this is 2 grains when loading a soft-swaged hollow-based wadcutter flush to the case mouth, applying a normal taper crimp as you would use in an autoloading match pistol, or 2.5 grains when using 155-160 grain soft cast Cowboy style bullets seated to a length of 1.40" or greater to use in a lever-action rifle.

For very mild and light loads, I use the Fiocchi .380 Rimmed Short cases (0.687" long) measuring a nominal 1.7 grains of Bullseye using the #00 rotor with the RCBS Little Dandy powder measure, and I seat the Accurate .36-155D bullet to the crimp groove. These give about 600 fps to exit the rifle barrel reliably, and about 500 fps in revolvers OK at short steel plate ranges.
121873
Outpost75,
Yep, I thought that William Dresser article is a very good one.

I've posted the following on another thread with the same question, I'd highly recommend that the OP find this article.


There is a great article in "The NRA handloaders guide" C1969
"Minimum Loads in handguns" by William Dresser.

He worked up a load of 0.75gr of Bullseye for a 146gr. WC specifically for a Smith & Wesson Chief's Special [38 spl] with 2" barrel. MV=195 fps

The article goes into great detail on how to work-down to where the boolit sticks in the barrel and then work-up to a level where it will reliably shoot. Also mentioned was that Wad Cutters are best as they can be seated deep which then reduces powder capacity space, which would be desirable in this instance.

I couldn't find any online free copies, but you can loan it from the local library, no doubt.
Good luck,
Jon

[Shiloh]

Ever think about trying round ball loads? Quiet, low recoil, accurate, cheap!

RB
I've done .36 call round balls a time or two.
Loaded 148 gr WC with 2.3. That is as low as I dared to go. I should have clocked them. Currently at 2.7 gr. Bullseye.

Shiloh

[Centaur 1]

The cylinder gap is what causes a lot of problems with very light loads in a revolver. Once the base of the bullet clears the gap, the gases have an escape route other than pushing the bullet. The sound is more of a cat fart than a cat sneeze when this happens, but it is loud enough to make you think the bullet exited the barrel, so be careful. You need to work down a load for every revolver separately because the cylinder gap can vary quite a bit between guns, and a load that works in my gun may stick the bullet in yours.

[Outpost75]

My experience has been that the old yellow-fluffy Hercules Bullseye made prior to the Alliant change lights off more easily and is better suited to highly reduced loads than the modern black Alliant having well defined particles.

[alamogunr]

Outpost75,
Yep, I thought that William Dresser article is a very good one.

I've posted the following on another thread with the same question, I'd highly recommend that the OP find this article.

That same article is in the 1981 edition of NRA's "Handloading". I had almost forgotten I had that book. Thanks for reminding me to check that article. A lot of good stuff.

[reloader28]

Last winter I was playing with 38spl, 100gr Ranch Dog in my 357 with low loads.
I was at about 1-1.2 gr Bullseye when the boolits started bouncing off my wood block and landing at my feet at 10yds.
Never had a squib though. I was looking for a fun rabbit load.

[w30wcf]

I'm trying to develop the lightest load I can for a 38 spl. The idea is to help keep peace at one of the places I shoot. The mould is Lyman 358345, a great little 115gr boolit that data is quite sparse for, at least for the 38. So far the lowest I've dared to go is 2.0 grains of Bullseye in which is traveling an average of 607fps out of my 6.5" Blackhawk. This was a recent chrono test I did testing for groups and such. I wouldn't say it's the tightest groups I've ever shot but were quite respectable. This will simply be a tin can plinker when all is said and done.
This data came from an trashcan wadcutter in an old Lyman manual. Any other members with thoughts on this boolit?
jeepyj

jeepyj,
Historically speaking there was there was the early .38 Special 116 gr. Mid Range cartridge that used 2.2 grs. of Bullseye.

It was introduced by UMC in 1908. As the pic on the box shows, it had a case cannelure at the base of the 116 gr. bullet....probably to distinguish it from other .38 Special rounds although the shorter bullet would be noticeable.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/38SpecialMidRangejpg.jpg

I have recreated the historic cartridge with the same bullet you are using over 2.2 grs. of bullseye and they shoot pretty well at 50 ft. from my Ruger .357 revolver.:D You might try bumping up the charge to 2.2 grs. and see if that works a little better accuracy wise.

w30wcf

[jeepyj]

I'm overwhelmed with the fine positive responses. The reason for this quest is I'm just trying to be considerate of my neighbors at camp. I've never had a complaint but I'd rather not ruffle any feathers ether. As some know sometimes we get caught up in the moment and before you know it two or three hundred have disappeared down the range. It’s not my intention to actually work a load down till I stick one but with the vast experience in this crowd I figured that I'd ask rather than reinvent the wheel. Given the fact that this mould doesn't seem to have a boat load data available for the 38, I would rather air on the side of caution and see what others have safely done. When a friend and I were testing I had some 4.0 gr, 2.8 gr and 2.0 grain. The data for all these was found at one place or another ether in print or online so I had a good comfort level about shooting. My observations from my bench rest were that I really didn't see a huge difference in accuracy & grouping between any of those three but a very distinct difference on the noise level.
jeepyj

[Petrol & Powder]

Lot's of good advice and experience on this thread.
A few points that seem to jump out:
*Bullseye appears to be a popular choice of powder for light loads
*If standard length 38 Spl. casings are used, a flush seated WC will help to keep the free space inside the casing to a minimum.
*Make certain that EVERY bullet exits the barrel and TAKE A SQUIB ROD WITH YOU !!

I've never stuck a bullet in a snub-nose 38 but I'm sure it's possible. I have stuck bullets in longer barrels. Sticking one bullet in a barrel is annoying, firing another cartridge behind an obstructed bore is a whole different situation. I've never fired a second bullet behind a stuck bullet but I've stopped others from doing it. BE CAREFUL and PAY ATTENTION.

Good Luck !

[bedbugbilly]

Petrol & Powder . . . .

LOL Trust me . . it IS possible to stick a boolit in a snub. :-) I've only had one squib (knock on wood) and that was in my Model 36. I knew it as soon as it happened even with ear muffs on . . all I got was a "pffffft" from the primer and I knew right away . . . and I also knew right away WHY it happened . . . it was because of ME! I was loading on my Lee 4 hole turret and my wife asked me a question and I got interrupted. Not her fault . . it was mine. I use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure mounted to my powder thru die and I didn't drop a charge. That was a very good lesson to me . . . keep your mind on what you are doing and if you get interrupted . . . START OVER. I should have pulled the casing from the press, dumped it (just to "make sure") and started over. Thank goodness I didn't drop a double charge!

I like Bulls Eye very much but am now overly cautious when I load and never let my attention be diverted to other things.

This has been an interesting thread . . . lots of good information!

[jeepyj]

So the latest... I was able to go out and do another round of testing. This time 1.9 grains of BE, the results were overall pretty good. It is my belief that my RCBS powder dump isn't designed to run quite that low so I'm getting a spread on average 94fps this was over two trips and 4 separate chrono results. Keeping in mind not all were 1.9gr tests in other words that was the deviation for the 4 different tests loads all very similar in deviation. I'm up for conflicting thoughts on that thought but it is what it seems like to me. I've decided to build a mini dipper out of a .22 cartridge possibly similar to what paul h was referring to in his post.
The average speed for the 1.9 gr was 569fps. I did also discover that reading the instructions for the chrono proved to be interesting such my Muzzle blast was beating my boolit to the chrono giving me errors that I hadn't seen in other loads.
The photo shows 6 sets of groups. The testing day was around 27 degrees and 10+/- mph wind so admittedly not the very best shooting I've done but as I mentioned before these are can killers for camp so once I zero the sights back in I think it will be fun!
Also i would be very interested if anyone wants to part with a 358425

122136

[paul h]

If you're having trouble finding a 358425, any 148 gr wadcutter mold can be cut down to produce a lighter bullet. I cut down an H&G 050 to drop lighter wadcutters.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/3/4/4/344100033/7031047671_98E535D4B9262A30FB8F5660F8F87E51.jpg

[MarkP]

The Lyman 358101 would be Ideal for what you are doing, the Lee 358-105 shown in the post above would be a low cost alternative. The Lyman 358101 is 77 gr, the Lee 358-105 is basically the Lyman with a point.
I seat the little Lymans below flush and shoot with 2.0 gr Reddot, like others have mentioned I have stuck a few when I was below 2.0 gr of Reddot. What will work in one revolver may not in another as the gases my vent out the cylinder gap and stick the boolit. I shot some in my 8-3/8" M 14 and stuck some in my 2" M 64. I did read on here someone is loading the Lee 105's backwards for a full WC profile.122150

[Poygan]

I loaded 2 grains of Bullseye with a 70 grain wadcutter and 2.8 grains of BE with a 105 grain wadcutter. The 70 grain WC was quiet but inaccurate. The 105 grain WC was more accurate but not as quiet at 25 yards. They were tested in a Rossi Model 92. Federal primers. I found a 70 grain WC that bounced back from the target area about 10-15 yards.

[35remington]

Unless you position the powder for
every shot, 92 fps spreads are more likely to be from position variation than powder drop variance. Check and pay attention to this point next time.....I mentioned this here already.

[olafhardt]

I made a powder dipper out of a 22 lr case. These dippers can be calibrated with an insulin syringe. The downloaded Lee chart in the 1cc column gives the density of powders in GRAINS per cc.

[zomby woof]

I've loaded 2.7 WST with a LEE 358-150RN. A very light shooting accurate load.

[jeepyj]

Unless you position the powder for
every shot, 92 fps spreads are more likely to be from position variation than powder drop variance. Check and pay attention to this point next time.....I mentioned this here already.
35 Remington,
Thank you for mentioning this, I forgot mention this in my post. From your earlier post I did make a very conscious effort to rase the barrel and tap the side of the cylinder between each shot on the 1.9 grain testing and still had A similar spead. I will say this surprised me a bit because I was hopping to trim that number a bit by doing that. I did not do this on the other tests prior To reading your post. Thanks again for your valuable information.
jeepyj

[Petrol & Powder]

When you start getting down to really short wad cutters you may be approaching round ball territory. (80grs +/-) There's just not enough bearing surface to make much difference at that point. I've shot round balls in 38 Special but I was never impressed with the results enough to consider them to be a replacement for the 148gr WC.
I know your primary goal is a quiet cartridge but you may be approaching the wall of diminishing returns. I think your best bet in terms of accuracy vs. noise may still be a 148gr WC loaded to a level that consistently gets it out of the barrel. Get to that point and call it a day. There's a limit to how much noise reduction you can get without screwing up the accuracy component of the equation.

[Forrest r]

Another mold to keep an eye out for is the h&g #41. Here's how h&g described their mold.

#41 - .38 S& W Special. 110 grains. A lightweight bullet primarily for indoor short-range use, similar to configuration of#50, but with only two rounded grease grooves. Available in plain base and bevel base.

I see them for sale a couple times a year on ebay & they usually go pretty cheap.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/hampg41close_zps6e24e811.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/hampg41close_zps6e24e811.jpg.html)

[blackthorn]

Quote "I made a powder dipper out of a 22 lr case. These dippers can be calibrated with an insulin syringe. The downloaded Lee chart in the 1cc column gives the density of powders in GRAINS per cc."

Where can I find the referred to chart? Thanks!

[35remington]

Lee's website under powder VMD. One of the PDF's.

[Patricklaw]

Lee's website under powder VMD. One of the PDF's.

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

[blackthorn]

Thanks!

[jeepyj]

If you're having trouble finding a 358425, any 148 gr wadcutter mold can be cut down to produce a lighter bullet. I cut down an H&G 050 to drop lighter wadcutters.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/3/4/4/344100033/7031047671_98E535D4B9262A30FB8F5660F8F87E51.jpg

I am lucky and was able to abtain a 358425 from a fine member that I had recently had done some other business with and I look foward to casting and testing. In preparation of it's arrival I made a 2 grain powder measuring device out of a .22 cartridge. I've inluded a photo. Many thanks for the idea for the .22 in which started with you paul h. More testing fourth coming! As always comments both positive and negitive are welcome because thats how I learn. Any thoughts?
jeepyj

122452

[NavyVet1959]

In preparation of it's arrival I made a 2 grain powder measuring device out of a .22 cartridge. I've inluded a photo. Many thanks for the idea for the .22 in which started with you paul h. More testing fourth coming! As always comments both positive and negitive are welcome because thats how I learn. Any thoughts?


Will it double as a beer bottle opener? If not, then you might need a slight mod... :)

The slowest that I've ever gotten out of a .38/.357 was around the 400 fps range. I don't remember the powder charge though. Probably around 2 gr of Hodgdon Clays and a 158 gr cast bullet, but it's been so long, I might be off a bit on the powder charge. I can't find my reloading notes for that experiment either.

For most of our loadings, we tend to think that an increase in barrel length will give us an increase in muzzle velocity. When we are working in loads this low though, that's not necessarily the case. We just need to be prepared to use a rod to hammer out the bullet if we get one stuck when working at the bottom end like this. :)

[jeepyj]

bump as reference to slow quiet boolits post
jeeyj

[dakotashooter2]

Being the tightwad I am I have cut down some 38 sp cases with cracked mouths to 38 S&W length . Initially all I had was 158gr SWC and loaded them with red dot . They actually made for a reasonably quite load, even out of my 85. I recently acquired a 115 gr swc mold to help save some lead, but have not had time to work on a load yet.

[bigdog454]

I have used standard 38 spcl. brass and loaded the bullet deep to 38 S&W OAL. using 231 powder. don't know the vel. but you could watch the bullet hit the target.
BD

[lwknight]

Obviadently, barrel friction has a big role in velocity of light loads. After reading through the posted loads and velocities , I was surprised that 550-600 fps were obtained from 2.0 grains of bullseye.
I have been using 2.0 grains with 100 grain DEWCs and getting only 450 fps. I am sizing .357 in a .356 X6" barrel. Admittedly , I did not crono any other guns than my GP-100.
I called these my rat thumper loads because you could shoot a rat in the barn and not punch a hole in the tin if you miss.