Warm 165 Jwords in -06?

[kawasakifreak77]

Buddy of mine dug out this old 1917 Remington that I've been getting back together. Was thumbing through my manuals looking for 165 data (I've a pile of 163 to 168 bullets) & saw a couple loads that claim 3000 fps out of a 22" tube!

One was with Winchester 760 & another was with something-or-other 205. I'm at work now, so I don't have the info in front of me. I actually saw a couple pounds of W760 at a local fun store & just about bought it but wanted to ask here first. Even though this is a cast forum, seems like there's more knowledge here than about anywhere else.

Anyways. Has anyone acually pushed a 165 that fast? Or is it just the book loads being optimistic again?

Thanks for any help.

[nekshot]

30 years ago we did some crazy things. I was shooting speers "new"grand slam 165 at almost 3000 in a 30-06, 22 inch rem 700. I would in no way shoot that thru a 760 remington. I was looking at old notes last year and almost fainted seeing how far into the red we were compared to todays manuals. Either we were stupid or powders have changed for the better!

[ravelode]

Norma 205 was discontinued due to lot - lot variation. Even with Superformance, getting 165 gr. to 2970 fps is a max 58,800 psi load with a 24 in bbl.Max load with IMR 4350 will get you 2959 fps with a compressed load at 53,800 psi

[madsenshooter]

There have been big advances in pressure testing since those old manuals were printed. That's the biggest factor, but there's also the legal aspect, people suing the people who produced the manual. "I followed their directions and my rifle blew up". If your 1917 has the original barrel, rather than one produced later for refurbishing, you likely have a larger groove diameter and the loads you're looking at won't produce as much pressure or velocity as what's in your manual. They're just a guide.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I used the Speer 165 gr. soft point in my `06 back in `72 for my Wy deer and antelope load. It was in an old model 70 Win. rifle and I used IMR-4350 powder. I don`t have my records with me right now so I don`t remember the charge, except it was about MAX load. It made a nice tight 3 leaf clover group at 300 yds. Took a nice `goat and mulie with it. I appreciate my firearms and my hands and facial features more than to try and drive such a bullet and loading at 3K or beyond.Robert

[littlejack]

My brother and I load 58 grains of IMR 4350 under the Hornaday 165 grain sp. We both get very good accuracy/groups. I chrony'd these at just over 2800 fps.
I don't think I would want to go with any more of that powder under that weight of bullet. I sure don't want to try for 3000 fps.
Just sayin.
Jack

[Tatume]

My brother and I load 58 grains of IMR 4350 under the Hornaday 165 grain sp. We both get very good accuracy/groups. I chrony'd these at just over 2800 fps. I don't think I would want to go with any more of that powder under that weight of bullet. I sure don't want to try for 3000 fps.

I second Jack's suggestion. My best 30-06 load is a bit less H4350 for 2783 fps average velocity with a Nosler 165 grain partition bullet. This combination is extremely accurate in all of my 30-06 rifles, and kills like lightning. Trajectory is very flat at the ranges I prefer to hunt.

[Treeman]

Littlejack's load is my load -except I stick 58 grains of 4350 under a 165 Corelokt. The old 30-06 can be safely "hotted -up" in a modern bolt action-but I have never felt the need to go beyond published data (some published data stops at 57gr 4350 and a 165 but there is also 58grains from tested sources). Another 150-200 fps won't shoot enough flatter to make any difference since it shoots flat enough for any distance I ought to shoot under field conditions and I never have seen anything killed deader than dead.

[Larry Gibson]

My favorite 165 jacketed hunting load for my M70 '06 w/24" barrel is W-W cases, WLR primers, 59.5 gr AA4350 under a Hornady's 165 HPBT. It shoots moa for 10 shots at 2839 fps with 58,300 psi as measured with the Oehler M43 PBL. Factory 150 & 180s and milsurp 150 and 174 gr run 53,300 psi to 57,900 psi(M43) in the same M70.

My load is close enough for me.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

As far as useable pressure goes, the case life is really the determaning factor. Different cases allow different pressures to be generated, based on how hard the brass is and how thick the case head is.

What I've used for a max pressure is if I can get at least 5 loadings w/o loosening the primer pocket, the pressure is ok.

With the '06 in a sporting rifle, your shoulder will give out before the case does. 10 shot groups at 2900 fps with the 165-8 bullets becomes a little sadistic, at least it does with me and my 721.

Some High Power match shooters have run 62,000 "CUP" pressures, I'm sure the throats didn't last as long but, they did it over and over.

I wouldn't worry to much about pressures (using proper powders), just watch your case life and take care of that shoulder. I do now that I've had rotor cuff surgery :)

Frank

[kawasakifreak77]

I dunno what it is about this old Remington but it just doesn't seem to kick!

Anyways I loaded up a few 163 grain pulls over 57 grains of IMR 4350. It was a decently compressed load. One manual claims 58 is tops but I don't see how you could fit anymore powder in the case! At least not with LC cases, that's for sure..

Anyways, I got right at 2850 fps & a very low ES. Feel good about that for my first outing.

Then I read a mag primer might be advisable. So I'll probably revisit this with mag primers & commercial cases.

[Tatume]

Magnum primers are not needed with IMR4350 in the 30-06, unless you're shooting in very cold climes.

[jhalcott]

Most military brass is a bit heavier than most civilian brass. I tried several different makes of brass to hit 3000 fps with 165's. In 3 different rifles, a Browning, a Remington 700 and an M1 Garand. The ammo shot differently (fps and accuracy) in each. It was a LARK thing, some thing to do while waiting for the phone to ring. Cases did NOT last very long and there WAS some damage to the M1

[9.3X62AL]

With either WW-760, IMR 4320, or IMR-4350.......2800 FPS is about as much velocity as I want with the 165 grain j-words from a 22" barrel. All three powders have produced very consistent and accurate performance for me in 30-06. I have gotten away from 165 grain bullets in 30-06 and gone to the 180 grainers--at 2650 FPS they track an almost identical trajectory to the 250 grain 9.3mm at 2650 FPS from 100-300 yards.

[HamGunner]

My old 1970 Speer #8 manual is normally thought now days to be a bit on the generous side as far as it's maximum loads were concerned. But even Speer #8 does not show any powder listed as able to push a 165gr. jacketed bullet past 2,922 fps in it's tested 24" Springfield barrel chambered in 30-06. That load was 58.0gr. H414 with Mag. primer in government issued cases. Now H414 is the same powder as WW-760, only packaged from a different lot and sold through Hodgdon. So is WW-760 capable of 3,000 fps with that 165gr. bullet in a shorter 22" barrel? I would think that it certainly is, but not unless one is loading way over the suggested maximum charge and far into the red zone. I would certainly want to double check any data that comes even close to giving that sort of velocity.

Of course, I always start lower and work the loads up no matter what the manuals say is max. I usually find my best loads well before I reach the end of the chart.

On a side note: My Remington U.S. Model of 1917 with it's military sights and my 63 year old eyes shoots 3/4" groups at 50 yards with my cast 176gr. Lyman 311332 at 1,875 fps. using Rem. 9 1/2 primers and about 32 grains of Jeff Barrett's surplus RL-15. It did not show much interest in jacketed loads, not even my very good 165gr. Sierra SBT that I always used in other rifles loaded with 57.0gr. IMR 4350 or Federal Premium 165gr. factory loads.

Since it will keep it's open sights and it does like my cast load fairly well, it will not be seeing anything other than cast bullets shoved into it's chamber. It has a decent enough bore, but I doubt that I will be doing much more testing with jacketed bullets. I am sure that I could find one that it would enjoy, however.

[9.3X62AL]

I've put 3 deer down with the 165 grain BTSP, 2 from 308s at 2700/muzzle and 1 from 30-06 at 2800/muzzle. All three collapsed in under 10 yards, and I suspect would all have done so had the bullets started out @ 2500 FPS. No bullets were recovered, and none were NosParts (2 Sierra Game Kings, 1 Nosler Bal-Tip). The 165 grain 30 caliber bullet is a very efficient deer whacker if directed correctly. 170 grainers in 30-30 did well for me twice, running about 2100 at the muzzle.