357 mag for deer hunting

[Orchard6]

Hey guys I'm new here so bear with me if this has been beat to death but I picked up a Rossi 92 in .357 mag a while back and I'm hoping to use it on a deer or 3 this year.
I have a question on boolit hardness though, I want to use the Lee 158 gr RNFP pushed to 1875 fps by 17.2 grains of Lil' Gun to harvest the deer but I'm not sure on the hardness I should be using at that velocity. Currently I'm casting with AC COWW and am getting decent accuracy and minimal leading. Would this be to hard to expect any kind of expansion going thru a 130-150 pound deer? Or am I not really needing any expansion with the relatively large flat nose?

I normally shoot deer in the lungs more so than in the shoulder if that makes a difference. Any input would really be appreciated.
Thank you much, Orchard6

[petroid]

You will likely get some expasion at that velocity and with that alloy but it isn't absolutely required. The flat nose will hit hard and crush tissue. Sounds like a great deer load.

[dragon813gt]

I'd be more concerned w/ why you are getting leading than the hardness.

[FergusonTO35]

Are you using a gas check? My 358-158-RF takes a gas check no problem and drops at 162 grains.

[Orchard6]

I guess I should have stated that the boolit is plain based and I'm tumble lubing with Lee liquid alox. I think those two reasons are resulting in the minor leading that I'm seeing. Since these are hunting loads I wasn't too concerned with a little leading after 15 shots as I only have 3 tags!

[shoot-n-lead]

You could probably back that load up a hair, remedy the slight leading and still have a very deadly hunting load.

I am honestly surprised that you are not getting more leading than you are.

[DanWalker]

Would this be to hard to expect any kind of expansion going thru a 130-150 pound deer? Or am I not really needing any expansion with the relatively large flat nose?

I normally shoot deer in the lungs more so than in the shoulder if that makes a difference. Any input would really be appreciated.
Thank you much, Orchard6
My suggestion is ,you gotta change your way of thinking when you're shooting cast boolits at critters. I had some pretty miserable experiences with ugly drawn out kills when I first started hunting with cast. One of the things I did was to change where I aimed. Like you, I used to always aim right behind the shoulder for a double lung hit. The problem was, this provides MIMIMAL resistance to the boolit. they would just pencil through. It was like shooting a deer with a field point tipped arrow. Yeah, they were gonna die, EVENTUALLY. I started getting FAR better results when I started aiming for shoulders. I now aim to try to take out one or both shoulders. The nice thing about doing this with cast projectiles is that with your average alloy(12-18 bhn) it doesn't shatter and frag the heck out of the shoulders like a jacketed bullet will. You just punch a hole.

[DougGuy]

^^^^THIS...

If you can scratch the alloy with a thumbnail it's soft enough that some leading is expected at that velocity, but that's a good alloy for a hunting boolit. You should see some expansion, but it's secondary really, that boolit if you can break a shoulder like Dan says, will stay together and maximize damage done with that caliber.

[Lefty Red]

You could probably back that load up a hair, remedy the slight leading and still have a very deadly hunting load.

I am honestly surprised that you are not getting more leading than you are.


Me too! At that speed I would figure allot of leading, even with water quenched alloy.

My Henry likes the 158gr RF at about 1400fps double lubed with Alox and propelled by IMR4227.

I wouldn't worry about using Alox. It's not as sexy as other lubes, but it works.

Jerry

[Lefty Red]

I will also echo what Dan said too, casts bullets kill differently than jacketed. You need bone to transfer the energy of a casted bullet into the animal for shock and damage. The jacketed can use just soft tissue to transfer its energy.

Major Dan Wesson took grizzly bear and moose and just about every other animal walking with as 158gr SWC bullet in his 8 5/8" S&W going around 1400 fps. So you can back the speed back and still take a deer, with proper placement.

[OnHoPr]

Take heed in what Dan says especially shooting at angled or raking shots on deer in the MI brushy woods and trying to track with no snow and leaves upturning while the critter is running after the shot and THICK brush only a stone throw away. Try to hit shoulder bone going in preferrably, but going out will help also. The bullets at those speeds with only hitting maybe a green rib at the hardest is going to leave a tunnel wound through the lungs, deadly yes, but a ten second death run can turn into a couple of hundred yards in the thick stuff. You just might spend more time hard tracking.

[Lonegun1894]

I took a couple deer and several hogs with this bullet pushed by 7.0grs Unique out of a 4" Ruger Security Six, and wasn't getting anywhere near the velocity you're getting, and it worked very well. I used to get very slight leading, but switched to the Lee 158gr SWCGC, and then the Lyman 358156. Effect wasn't changed much if any, but the GC bullets allowed me higher velocities once I started shooting a TC Contender and a Rossi 92 .357 like yours. I have not tried putting a GC on this bullet yet, but may have to try after the comments Ferguson made. It really isn't needed for most of my loads, but you also don't need the velocities you posted to take deer. I'm not saying don't use that load, I would if it is accurate, just saying it isn't needed if slowing it down a bit gets rid of your leading problem. Then again, like you said, you only have 3 tags so it shouldn't be much of a problem. I say make sure it hits where you point it and go make meat.

[Orchard6]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys! I think I'll stick with this load for this year and start aiming for the shoulders. Hopefully I'll have some venison in the freezer soon! Ferguson can you go into a little detail on gas checks for the 158 rnfp? I think I might like to try that!

[30calflash]

My suggestion is ,you gotta change your way of thinking when you're shooting cast boolits at critters. I had some pretty miserable experiences with ugly drawn out kills when I first started hunting with cast. One of the things I did was to change where I aimed. Like you, I used to always aim right behind the shoulder for a double lung hit. The problem was, this provides MIMIMAL resistance to the boolit. they would just pencil through. It was like shooting a deer with a field point tipped arrow. Yeah, they were gonna die, EVENTUALLY. I started getting FAR better results when I started aiming for shoulders. I now aim to try to take out one or both shoulders. The nice thing about doing this with cast projectiles is that with your average alloy(12-18 bhn) it doesn't shatter and frag the heck out of the shoulders like a jacketed bullet will. You just punch a hole.

I was planning to use my 1894C with 158 JSP's as I don't have time to work out a cast load for this season. Would the above apply to a non HP bullet? Just want to do it the right way. Thanks.

[DougGuy]

I was going to suggest trying soft gas checks. You get some dental wax on fleabay, sheets that are .060" thick, lay it on a charged and flared case and use something flat to cookie cutter it so you have a wax disc sitting in the top of the case and seat the booolit on it. They work in my .45 Colt revolvers, the wax on the base of the boolit serves to "season" the bore for the next shot.

[Ben]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys! I think I'll stick with this load for this year and start aiming for the shoulders. Hopefully I'll have some venison in the freezer soon! Ferguson can you go into a little detail on gas checks for the 158 rnfp? I think I might like to try that!

A plain base bullet at 1875 fps.

Not me ! !

[Blammer]

I've hunted with my 357 mag lever gun and bagged two deer.

I've had no problem with aiming for a double lunger, they do their normal death run and then I go collect them.

I use standard WW alloy air cooled, the NOE 360-180 is what I like. A 35 cal hole going in and at LEAST that going out, not a problem.

If you're worried aim for bone on the far side of the animal, should put them down nicely.

I will say, on one, I shot right through the ham bone and it made the neatest hole coming and a bigger neat hole going.

[Pirate69]

Hey Blammer, isn't that the wrong end of the deer?:kidding:

The Turk I got from you is shooting great.



I've hunted with my 357 mag lever gun and bagged two deer.

I've had no problem with aiming for a double lunger, they do their normal death run and then I go collect them.

I use standard WW alloy air cooled, the NOE 360-180 is what I like. A 35 cal hole going in and at LEAST that going out, not a problem.

If you're worried aim for bone on the far side of the animal, should put them down nicely.

I will say, on one, I shot right through the ham bone and it made the neatest hole coming and a bigger neat hole going.

[FergusonTO35]

Orchard6, I buy aluminum .35 caliber gas checks (available here and on auction sites) and install them with the Lee push through .358 sizer die. Just push the base of the boolit down on the check then run through the die, easy as can be. Been awhile since I fired them but I know I was using a pretty stout charge of H110 and getting good accuracy and no noticeable leading out of a micro groove Marlin 1894.

[Orchard6]

Thanks Ferguson, that might give me something new to try over the winter.

[mnewcomb59]

Think about how slow that Rossi twist is. 1 twist in 30 inches. The marlin .357 rifle is 1 in 16. My 9mm M&P has a 10 inch twist.

With using the Lee 125-rf in the fast twist 9, my range scrap alloy begins to strip the riflings around 1050 fps. This leaves leading along the rifling paths. I can take the same 125-rf out of soft range scrap well over 2000 fps in the slow twist Rossi with no leading.

Think about this - to torque the rifling paths as hard the 10 inch twist m&p at 1000 fps, the 30 inch twist Rossi would have to be going 3000 fps - AND the Rossi has 4-5 times the barrel to gently accelerate the bullet. The 158-rf shoots within 3 MOA with softer-than-wheelweights range scrap at 16-17 grains of Lil gun (1.09 or 1.18 CC volume) in my rifle. I did have to fire lap out some machining marks near the muzzle but after 25 or so firelapping shots I can shoot soft lead really fast with this (basically) round ball twist.


The down side is that the Marlin can shoot 220 grain sub sonic, where the Rossi only likes WFN 158s subsonic, not even the longer 158 SWC. The upside to the slow twist is that gas checks aren't a part of your budget. I would love to hear what LArry Gibson has to say about his RPM theory and the DRAMATIC differences in twist between 10" twist 9m and 30" twist 357 rifle and what that means for accuracy and bullet alloy.

[Odinbreaker]

I roll my cast bullets in motor mica after lubing really helps with leading

[725]

I'm with Ben on this one. A PB boolit doesn't need to be driven so fast. If I was prone to try it I would certainly use Ben's red as a boolit lube and maybe his new creation, Ben's LL.

[Orchard6]

Thanks for the input guys, hunting started yesterday and I had a chance to put a medium sized doe in the freezer, which I took! She was about 65 yards out and had just come out of the swamp into a grassy clearing that I overlook. I took aim at the front shoulder and placed my shot, she dropped like a rock and never went anywhere! The shot was a little high and hit the top of the lungs and the spine but I'll take that over a gut shot any day.
http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w548/orchard6/Mobile%20Uploads/3B8CEC33-D041-4371-A1AD-B53BB33AD873_zpscjb31o0o.jpg (http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/orchard6/media/Mobile%20Uploads/3B8CEC33-D041-4371-A1AD-B53BB33AD873_zpscjb31o0o.jpg.html)
Now that I know how effective my load is I have a much higher confidence level and won't hesitate to take a shot on another one! Thanks for all the tips and suggestions guys!

[Orchard6]

Oh, I almost forgot, I did make a last minute tweek on my load. I switched over to a TL 358-158 swc and got the best accuracy with 17 grains of lil gun. It had a little better accuracy than the rf that I first tried.

[izzyjoe]

Good job on the deer, you'll get that load worked out!

[DanWalker]

AWESOME! Congrats!

[Lonegun1894]

That load looks like it just might work, well, maybe. Now you know we won't really know if that load is ok to use til we get a report on how that doe tastes, right? Way to go!

[FergusonTO35]

Good job! Sounds like you can push that boolit pretty hard without a gas check. I might pick up a Rossi one of these days, that slower twist sounds good for stout loads.

[Lonegun1894]

Ferguson,
That slow twist is great, but there comes a point when you just can't drive a bullet fast enough to get it and keep it stable. My 20" .357 keeps 158s stable to 500yds (accuracy was another matter), but a friend of mine gave me a couple dozen 220gr bullets from an unknown mold that I couldn't keep stable to 100 yds. I tried some 180s and they did ok, but had some stability issues at 200 yds. I know most people don't push these rifles that far, but I was wanting to try and find out what the limits were for me and this rifle cause I had this crazy idea as to what if it was the only one, and could I make the .357 work for everything if I had to. Not that I want to or plan to.

[mnewcomb59]

Ferguson,
That slow twist is great, but there comes a point when you just can't drive a bullet fast enough to get it and keep it stable. My 20" .357 keeps 158s stable to 500yds (accuracy was another matter), but a friend of mine gave me a couple dozen 220gr bullets from an unknown mold that I couldn't keep stable to 100 yds. I tried some 180s and they did ok, but had some stability issues at 200 yds. I know most people don't push these rifles that far, but I was wanting to try and find out what the limits were for me and this rifle cause I had this crazy idea as to what if it was the only one, and could I make the .357 work for everything if I had to. Not that I want to or plan to.

Silhouette style 180s don't fly too well because they're longer and skinnier for their weight. The stabilization takes into effect bullet LENGTH as well as weight. The more it looks like a flying soup can, the shorter for its weight it will be. I have had better luck with the beartooth 185 WFN than I did with a longer and skinnier 180.

My most recent idea is to make a "Lever Keith" style boolit mold that is a long nosed RNFP instead of long nosed SWC. Make it 170 grains, with a longer nose (.36" instead of .30") because the Rossi will accept up to 1.66" OAL.

This 170 grain bullet will have a case capacity either the same or slightly more than average 158s, just like the Keith 173.

This means that you could have enough case capacity to use 158 grain data, just like the real Keith. There will be enough case capacity for 2000 fps with Lil Gun, and a short enough bullet that it would stay stable as far as you could shoot it out of the Rossi.

I have mocked it up on Mountain Molds a bunch of times, but never had the funds to go through with it. It would be pretty much the ranchdog design but with a longer, skinnier nose and more case capacity.

[FergusonTO35]

Good idea. My Lee 358-158-RF drops at 162 grains and shoots great. Mebbe I'll just stick with that.

[Tristan]

You might try the 45/45/10 mix of tumble lube, which seems to have helped some folks eliminate (avoid) minor leading at pretty good speed. It's equal parts LLA and Johnson's Paste Wax, + 10% mineral spirits.

Search on lubes subforum for 45/45/10 if your interested in the recipe.

Looking forward to trying that boolit myself in a 357 rifle. I'm going to try 1-1 WW's and Range scrap (that's a bit softer than WW's) plus tin, water quenched. If they come out harder than expected, I may try de-tempering the nose of 10 or so for testing and hunting.

[happie2shoot]

The 357 is a good elk, deer and almost anything gun with the right boolit.

http://www.mountainmolds.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=155&p=387&hilit=elk+shot+with+a+357#p387

I have a friend that owns a ranch here in Idaho and can hunt anything he wants, he use to say that only the big
bores were good, now he likes the 357 for most things except real long shots.

Elk are nothing at 125yds with the 180 wfn at 1850fps and that lee 158rfn is pretty good too.

Two years ago we tested three 357 RBHs with 6.5'' barrels at 200yds, 187 FN from a LBT mold, at 1500fps,
all three guns shot 6'' or less.

[FergusonTO35]

What sort of rifle or carbine does your friend use? Got any pet loads for the 358-158-RF?

[Lefty Red]

What sort of rifle or carbine does your friend use? Got any pet loads for the 358-158-RF?

My Henry likes that bullet over 4grs of Trail Boss all the way out to 100 hundred yards. Not too fast, but tight groups and almost the same POA/POI as my XTP hunting load.

Jerry

[happie2shoot]

We have 20'' Rossi 357, I don't know the load he used on the deer but
the 158 rf was going 1750 fps and the deer he shot with it was 125yds.

The elk was 198yds and the 190gr rf was going 2200fps from a 35rem
marlin.

The rossi has no problem shooting the 190gr at 1850 with h-110 or lil gun.

Buffalo Bore uses lil gun in their 180cast 357.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

If you ever wonder what the factories, use this forum is great info.
I have to say this, start low and work up.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/

The best boolit I use in the 357 is a 187gr fngc from Veral Smith of L B T,
the OAL is longer with mine than the BB 180 and the meplat on mine is
bigger, .280''.

For the hot loads I mostly use h-108 but h-110 or lil gun will be as good
or better.

[Motor]

I was planning to use my 1894C with 158 JSP's as I don't have time to work out a cast load for this season. Would the above apply to a non HP bullet? Just want to do it the right way. Thanks.

The SP would be a better choice than the HP. A 170gr SP would even be better. Most .357 JHPs are designed to expand on humans and do not do well on deer as they tend to over expand and not penetrate.

If I was going to load a JHP in .357 for deer it would be a 180gr Hornady. It should do very well from a rifle.

I know this thread is a couple weeks old. Nice work OP !!! The hard cast .358 sounded good to me. :)