10mm vs 45acp

[nekshot]

A family member recently bought a ati 1911 in 45 and this started the old debate again. I am a wheel gun guy. I enjoy shooting semi's but when push comes to shove I want the revolver. I do want to get a 1911 pistol in the near future and I toss and turn between a 45 which we have all the goodies or a 10mm. I am strictly interested in knock down power at 80 yards or a few more. My head tells me a 200 grain boolit in 41 cal will hit and drive harder than a 200 gr boolit in 45 cal will at the same speed. Any one have a "my uncles neighbor's cousin had a 10mm yakk yakk yakk" reality story proving one over the other. Also I like long barrels.

[Love Life]

Full snort 10mm shooting the RCBS 200 gr loaded over an unsafe charge of AA#9 shot through a Pinyon pine log. The 230 GR H&G 34 loaded over an unpublishable load of powder for an honest 900+ FPS did not penetrate the pine log. I shot the log numerous times to verify. The results were the same.

The 10mm was a Delta Elite and the 45 acp was a Colt Government. Apples to apples for the most part.

The 10mm was easy to make hits with to 50 yds, but so was the 45. On the steel plates the 45 hit with more umpf.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[lefty o]

i odnt much care for these debates, because they are pointless and go in endless circles. if however you want to look at purely ft lbs of power, the 10mm loaded to its potential smokes the 45acp, not even a close comparison.

[35remington]

It does not matter because the revolver will beat them both in terms of "knockdown", and for a hunting pistols a revolver is still ahead both. For defensive use 80 yards is less than useful. Thus I see any debate as pointless.

If a 44 magnum revolver is readily available the decision matters even less. For defensive use the original cartridge is best for the 1911 pistol.

If we load the 45 ACP case to 45 Super speeds there is little difference between it and a 10mm. This is pretty easily done. The wisdom of doing so when the 44 is available is another matter.

[Maine1]

I carry the G-20, daily. I also carried the G-21 for many years prior.
The change from 10mm from 45 took some time and expirimantation to sink in. The 10mm is flatter shooting, easier to hit with at distance than the 45, point of aim with my hot 200 gr loads. The "punishing recoil" is a myth.
The 10mm pentetrates better due to its better BC. The 45 gets it done, the 10mm does it a bit further away, and/or deeper.

shot the glocks head to head, a good 200 gr XTP load in each, the 10mm out penetrated the 45 easily.

ONLY real downside for the 10mm is ammo. I have buckets of 45 i picked up and cleaned, free for the taking and effort. I BUY every scrap of 10mm brass i have. Once you get the ammo thing sorted out ( and since you are here on this site, you likley have it licked)
10mm is all down hill.

[seagiant]

Hi,
If you want nothing but knock down power in a 1911 platform the 10MM is your boy!

If you want to shoot defensively,do a lot of damage and get back on target quickly in complete control then I would give the nod to the tried and true 45 ACP!

[Jupiter7]

If both are 200grs at 1k FPS(40s&w can do this) then the 10 still wins not because of BC but better sectional density. Warm that 10mm up to 1200 like the original Norma loadings and it's no contest.

[jmort]

The 460 Rowland is the way to go. Way more gun than a 10mm. The ne plus ultra of the 1911 platform.
http://460rowland.com/compensated_1911/

[Oreo]

Well, there's a fantastic whole entire line of MiHec molds in 10mm. Everything from 135gr hp, 150gr wfn, 170gr wfn, 190gr wfn, 200gr wfn, and soon a 220gr wfn, all with hp options. A new group buy will be opening shortly.
;)

There is LOTS to be gained from a 10mm with a longer barrel / long-slide. IMHO, that (long slide) is more a hunting gun then a defense gun though. IIRC, Ctious claims to have gotten a 200gr up to 1500fps in a 6" barrel.

And my last point: Magazine Capacity.

[DougGuy]

well, jmortimer took the debate right outta this one huh?

About 20yrs ago when the FBI was doing their choosing and comparing 10 versus 45 seemed like the whole country got caught up in the debate. The 10 feeds better in the 1911 platform. Check. The 10 penetrates more. Check. The 45 has more knockdown and less penetration at close range. Check.

At 80 yards, it certainly isn't going to be a legal self defense, so why would this 80 yard figure come into the equation?

[Maine1]

The 10mm factors in in activity beyond SD, at least with me. Taking coyotes, for example.
Dismissing a shooting at 80 yards as a defensible SD act? Honestly, there is not enough info to make that assesment. Self defence on the trail comes to mind.


I warmed up my Mihec mold the other night. No rounds downrange yet, but i am really liking those shallow HP bullets @ 197-200 gr!


I'll also say: you might want to test your split times between 45 and 10mm. Assuming 10mm is this beast that you have to pull down out of the clouds for another shot is an assumption many people make, but its not always true. My splits are sometimes tighter with the 10mm, esp when i use my hot 200 gr loads. YMMV.

The bottom line is choose a caliber you can live with and go on with life. I like my 45s, my 44's, 357s, and my 10.

[jmort]

He said he was strictly interested in knock-down power at 80 yards so the 460 Rowland is in fact the answer.

[lefty o]

He said he was strictly interested in knock-down power at 80 yards so the 460 Rowland is in fact the answer.
except he was specifically asking between the 10mm, and 45acp, otherwise we'd have all told him the 50BMG is the answer. lol

[jmort]

I thought he wanted a 1911 platform and wanted to maximize performance. If he only wants to consider lesser options, then so be it. The 1911 does not come in a .50 BMG.

[MtGun44]

"The 10 feeds better in the 1911 platform."

Politely as possible, this is hogwash, a meaningless massive overgeneralization.

I have shot and own MANY 1911s and observed many, many more fired many millions of
times during decades of competitions. I have a friend with two 10mm Delta Elites that I have
shot, developed loads for and worked on a good bit to improve reliability and accuracy. I like
the 10mm cartridge, it is a good one and the Delta Elite is a neat pistol, but be realistic
- the 1911 was DESIGNED specifically for the .45 ACP, and the 10mm is a afterthought
and a pushes the limit of the design a good bit, both case length and pressures.

Making a completely unprovable statement like that is just that, unprovable. Can I prove you
wrong? Probably not - but I know that I have seen significant numbers of malfunctions of
many types in 10mm 1911s, and proportionally (probably seen 1000 .45 ACP 1911s fired
for each 10mm I have seen fired or fired myself) many more failures in 10mms than with
.45 ACPs. More feeding issues in .45 ACP as absolute numbers observed? Sure, but as a percentage,
not close.

I like the 10mm in 1911, flat shooting, pretty powerful with original old-spec handloads
and with some work, can be pretty accurate. More reliable? Not in my experience.
Dramatically less reliable? Not in my experience - but pickier with ammo and seems to
need more work (at least the Delta Elites I worked with did) to be accurate.

Bill

[Lead Fred]

Aint never seen an 8 shooter, thats what the P220 carries. Not a fan of handguns, but everyone said I had to have one.
Being raised on 1911s, 45acp was my only choice.
If id gotten a wheel gun, it would have been a peace maker in 45LC or Model 29a S&W in 44 mag.

With a 10 rounder in, and three 8 rounders handy, I can unload a pile on 250fr RNPB in the op4s direction.
Good enough for me

[NavyVet1959]

I carry the G-20, daily. I also carried the G-21 for many years prior.
The change from 10mm from 45 took some time and expirimantation to sink in. The 10mm is flatter shooting, easier to hit with at distance than the 45, point of aim with my hot 200 gr loads. The "punishing recoil" is a myth.
The 10mm pentetrates better due to its better BC. The 45 gets it done, the 10mm does it a bit further away, and/or deeper.

shot the glocks head to head, a good 200 gr XTP load in each, the 10mm out penetrated the 45 easily.

ONLY real downside for the 10mm is ammo. I have buckets of 45 i picked up and cleaned, free for the taking and effort. I BUY every scrap of 10mm brass i have. Once you get the ammo thing sorted out ( and since you are here on this site, you likley have it licked)
10mm is all down hill.

I also have a G20 and G21. I do not find the G20 recoil to be excessive. I converted the G21 to a .45 SUPER +P+ (i.e. .460 Rowland without the longer brass) and the recoil on it is noticeably more. Still not .44 mag level of recoil though.

You can load 10mm loads in .40SW brass as long as you keep the OAL the same. At least in the Glock. Supposedly the 1911s have a weaker extractor and this should not be done. I don't have a 10mm 1911, so I can't test it. I seldom use 10mm brass in my G20 since .40SW brass works so well and is so available.

[6bg6ga]

When the 10mm came out in the Delta Elite it was a tough choice for me to make. Which one? Brass is a consideration in my opinion. I seldom shoot the Glock 20 I have simply because every lost case costs me money. The brass for a 45acp is cheap and easy to find. Getting back to the original Delta... some reports were good and others bad so I passed and went with the proven 45acp. I have owned a number of these boys with only one regret and that was a original low serial number officers in stainless steel. Didn't perform well but simply stove piped or jammed with about every shot and I am no beginner at this. Long story short a polishing and re angle of the feed ramp along with all new springs dispite that fact the original springs had less than 50 rounds on them and the gun now feeds everything you put in the magazine. Knock down power... The 10mm is supposed to be as powerful if not slightly more powerful than the 357 maginum. I would hate to get hit with either but for closer knock down my money is on the 45acp larger bullet / mass .

[nekshot]

Thanks for all input. I thought my head was right! I have researched the roland and like it. I just have a thing about longer bullets doing better than fat roundish ones. Why 80 yards? As a young man I quickly got bored at 50 yards and less. I built a 8 inch metal gong at 80 yards and got hooked. I also hunt. I am going to get a 1911 platform and at my age I still can shoot very good so I would rather hunt with the pistol (new challenge) than go back to wheel gun. I think this whole thing goes back to years ago when the 10 was dying a pistol shooter that I highly admire told me to buy the 10mm because it is the best at everything a handgun can do. That was his opinion and I am easily influenced by folk with more knowledge than me!

[Jupiter7]

1911 actually designed for 38acp. Redesigned for govt to 45 to replicate 45 colt ballistics also added thumb safety. All out there and well known. Also, the delta is a joke for serious 10mm loads, ramped barrel required to save brass and body parts.

[youngmman]

I don't have experience with the 10mm but do have considerable experience with the .45ACP, in 1911. My favorite load is the LBT 225 gn LFN bullet over 9gn of Blue Dot for about 900 fps. I have hunted with this load and it has never failed to feed and when it hits it frequently sounds like the crack of a bat at the ball park and the damage is evident.

Honestly, if I needed any more than that for defense then I am going to run like hell for cover. For larger game the 44 mag with the LBT 250 gn WFN is a good ticket loaded at about 1,100 fps. Yes, the bullet design eliminates the need for a maximum load so it's pleasant to shoot too!

[Forgetful]

Talking just about caliber, they're similar. But the 10mm Auto case is so much larger than the 45acp.

Also, try shooting reactive targets with a 45 from 100 yards.

Purely defensive, from point blank to 15 yards, the 45 is probably the winner. Out past 50 yards, a target can more easily dodge the 45 rounds mitigating your effectiveness and potentially improving theirs. That's an important factor.

[jwp475]

I'd pay to see someone dodge a 45 ACP out past 50 yards. I killed a deer at about 50 yards with a 1911 in 45 ACP, he was unable to dodge the bullet.

[seagiant]

Hi,
If you can get ahold of "Street Kings" a movie with Kuneau Reeves,in the first CQB firefight. You can see where the 45 ACP is the winner in that type of close combat!

Special Force Marines,SEALS,SWAT, ect,ect,use it for a reason!

[NavyVet1959]

I'd pay to see someone dodge a 45 ACP out past 50 yards. I killed a deer at about 50 yards with a 1911 in 45 ACP, he was unable to dodge the bullet.

Using the 100m record of 9.58 seconds, it works out (100 * 39.37 / 12 / 9.58) that at least some people could move about 34.2 fps. If you assume a 900 fps bullet, that would mean a travel time to 50 yds of 0.1667 secs. Said person could theoretically move 5.7 ft. Probably more since the bullet would not still be going 900 fps at 50 yds. Of course, this assumes that the person moved as soon as he saw the gun fire and did not wait for the sound to reach him. As far as actually SEEING the bullet and being able to dodge it, well I would not put high hopes on that. Hell, people get hit with batted baseballs and they are easier to see and going a lot slower.

[Love Life]

Hell, I couldn't even dodge a foam ball playing dodgeball today.

[NavyVet1959]

Hell, I couldn't even dodge a foam ball playing dodgeball today.

Foam ball? We played dodgeball with basketballs. You had quite an incentive to not get hit.

[Love Life]

We wanted to use volley balls, but the no fun police showed up and ruined that idea.

[jmort]

"Special Force Marines,SEALS,SWAT, ect,ect,use it for a reason!"


​Chris Kyle among many others use/used the SIG 220 .45 ACP

[Maine1]

I also have a G20 and G21. I do not find the G20 recoil to be excessive. I converted the G21 to a .45 SUPER +P+ (i.e. .460 Rowland without the longer brass) and the recoil on it is noticeably more. Still not .44 mag level of recoil though.

You can load 10mm loads in .40SW brass as long as you keep the OAL the same. At least in the Glock. Supposedly the 1911s have a weaker extractor and this should not be done. I don't have a 10mm 1911, so I can't test it. I seldom use 10mm brass in my G20 since .40SW brass works so well and is so available.

While i have heard of this, i am very hesitant to try it.

[mattw]

I shoot 10 and 45, both in revolvers and both in 1911's I slightly prefer the 10mm since it tends to shoot a little flatter.

[NavyVet1959]

While i have heard of this, i am very hesitant to try it.

It works very well in the Glocks, but I have never tried it in any other type of 10mm. Basically, it is headspacing on the extractor.

[NavyVet1959]

Talking just about caliber, they're similar. But the 10mm Auto case is so much larger than the 45acp.


Depends up your definition of "larger"...

10mm case capacity -- 24.1 gr H2O (1.56 cu-cm)
.45ACP case capacity -- 25.0 gr H2O (1.6 cu-cm)

[Lloyd Smale]

I would guess that special forces prefer then 45 over the 10 because its more controlable in recoil allowing for an easier double tap and it has much less muzzle blast. Also im sure the goverment stock pile of 45s is pretty big and seeings that that 10 isnt used ammo would be a logistics headache. Ive killed hogs with both and the 10mm does thump them better. Dont know if that relates to kill humans but if you use both on game youll find the 10 does have the advantage in killing power when your talking full power loads in both.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well this is a good thread! I have shot both 45 and 10 for a long time and finally came to the conclusion that the 45 did what I needed better in every aspect!

Admittedly the 10 is more powerful,penetrates further,and moves faster than the 45! However that comes at a price and I still think the 45 makes a better CQB type weapon in all regards!

Remember Clint Smith says,"The only reason I use my pistol is to get to my rifle!"

Just to show where I am at, I have owned 10mm Glocks and the third generation S&W auto pistols. The RIA Tactical 10mm 1911 is on my short list to acquire also!

[youngmman]

Hi,
Well this is a good thread! I have shot both 45 and 10 for a long time and finally came to the conclusion that the 45 did what I needed better in every aspect!

Admittedly the 10 is more powerful,penetrates further,and moves faster than the 45! However that comes at a price and I still think the 45 makes a better CQB type weapon in all regards!

Remember Clint Smith says,"The only reason I use my pistol is to get to my rifle!"

Just to show where I am at, I have owned 10mm Glocks and the third generation S&W auto pistols. The RIA Tactical 10mm 1911 is on my short list to acquire also!

"If your going into a known hostile situation get a double barreled shotgun and quit worrying about unimportant details" Bill Jordan, No Second Place Winner

[rosewood]

Love the 10mm, but also love the .45. Shoot, I love the 1911, probably the most perfect handgun every made. John Moses Browning was a genius on many fronts. I do shy toward the 10mm for the increase in power and slight increase in capacity. I have a Para Ord P16-40 that I put a 10mm bbl in, 16 rounds of 10mm awesomeness.

Someone mentioned you can use 40 brass and load oal to 10mm and shoot that. It will probably work but these rounds are supposed to headspace off of the case mouth, not the rim with the extractor which is effectively what you have putting .40 brass in a 10mm bbl. When the firing pin strikes the primer, the only thing preventing the cartridge from going forward is the extractor, really not a good scenario.

On the other note, if you purchase a 10mm 1911, you can also get a .40S&W drop-in barrel for it if you elect to shoot .40 out of it.

10mm
S&W 1076
EAA Tangfoglio Witness 10mm
Parker Arms 10mm (not a very good one, just a paper weight in the safe)
ParaOrd P16-40

.45ACPS
P14-45
P12-45
Colt Compact .45
Sig P220 .45

[NavyVet1959]

Someone mentioned you can use 40 brass and load oal to 10mm and shoot that. It will probably work but these rounds are supposed to headspace off of the case mouth, not the rim with the extractor which is effectively what you have putting .40 brass in a 10mm bbl. When the firing pin strikes the primer, the only thing preventing the cartridge from going forward is the extractor, really not a good scenario.

From what I've read, the reason that you can get away with it with the Glock is because the Glock has a beefier extractor. I've heard that you should not try it with a Delta Elite, but I don't have one, so I can't vouch for that. I shoot the .40 brass loaded to 10mm lengths all the time in my G20 and G29 and had yet had a case of the extractor not holding the brass sufficiently for the primer to be struck by the firing pin.

[pjames32]

I shot a mule deer at 65 yds with my Delta Elite 10mm. 180gr XTP front on chest shot. It worked quite well. That said, I prefer to carry a 1911 in 45ACP. I shot IPSC once with the 10mm. Only once, my times stunk.

[725]

My only anecdotal addition to this conversation comes from a hog hunt in which a wounded hog (300 pounder) was first shot with two rounds by my friend with a .44 Mag rifle, to NO effect. Ran around for a couple hours before we could get close to it. It charged me and at 10 yards, I double tapped it with a 10 mm Smith & Wesson - head on - and it folded up on the spot. Love my .45 for the two legged varmints, but I hunt with a 10 mm.

[Groo]

Groo here
I consider 9mm ,40 short&weak ,38 spec and 45 acp "city" loads.
They are good for short range and recovery is easy.
The large bore or magnum revolver rounds , 357 sig 10mm, 45 super/460 roland etc to be country/trail/hunting loads.
The country rounds can be loaded to city spec. or provied city results at much longer distances.
Except for Special conditions like small/light ccw, I have gone to 357sig and mag for general carry and 10mm/41mag for heavy use.

[seagiant]

Hi,
You can see how the pistol "snaps" in this video. I'm curious why Jeff Cooper thought this cartridge (10MM) "better" for CQB, seeing as he was an innovator in using the 45 1911 for defense???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqVo0wfi8Q8

[tbierley]

What about a 400 Corbon round.

[rosewood]

From what I've read, the reason that you can get away with it with the Glock is because the Glock has a beefier extractor. I've heard that you should not try it with a Delta Elite, but I don't have one, so I can't vouch for that. I shoot the .40 brass loaded to 10mm lengths all the time in my G20 and G29 and had yet had a case of the extractor not holding the brass sufficiently for the primer to be struck by the firing pin.

Well, I can say I have shot regular .40S&W in the 10mm barrel and haven't had any issues either. But that was before I got a good understanding of how it was working and how it is supposed to work. It may work, but it wasn't designed to be done that way. I can see doing it in a pinch, but regular use could cause some other wear issues down the road, but not sure.

[rosewood]

What about a 400 Corbon round.
Yes, this is a real nice load. So is the .460 Rowland and the .45 super, but they tend to cost more and are harder to come by. Not to say the 10mm is easy to get, but it is definitely more common than those other calibers. Of course, if you reload, it really doesn't matter.

[bruce drake]

Hey! Another fan of the 400 Corbon!

45 ACP necked down to 40 caliber and a bit of oomph as well.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/516168/swenson-semi-drop-in-barrel-1911-400-cor-bon-1-in-16-twist-5-government-steel-matte-black

Bruce

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I can say I have shot regular .40S&W in the 10mm barrel and haven't had any issues either. But that was before I got a good understanding of how it was working and how it is supposed to work. It may work, but it wasn't designed to be done that way. I can see doing it in a pinch, but regular use could cause some other wear issues down the road, but not sure.

Although I have shot regular .40SW rounds in a Glock 10mm barrel, I've probably only done 3-400 times. What I normally do is load 10mm loads in .40SW brass and shoot it in 10mm barrels. A bit more of the bullet is exposed. Not too big of a deal with a lubed bullet and even less with a powdercoated or jacketed bullet.

[tbierley]

Yes Sarco has 400 Corbon barrels for around 55.00. I just got a new ATI commander for 320 OTD. Was thinking about a CCW in 400 Corbon.

[nickE10mm]

well, there's a fantastic whole entire line of mihec molds in 10mm. Everything from 135gr hp, 150gr wfn, 170gr wfn, 190gr wfn, 200gr wfn, and soon a 220gr wfn, all with hp options. A new group buy will be opening shortly.
;)

there is lots to be gained from a 10mm with a longer barrel / long-slide. Imho, that (long slide) is more a hunting gun then a defense gun though. Iirc, ctious claims to have gotten a 200gr up to 1500fps in a 6" barrel.

And my last point: Magazine capacity.


excellent news about miha!!

[jwp475]

A 255 grain hard cast out of a 45 ACP at +P pressures will do about 960 FPS or so. That combo hits with real authority. I'll take take load over a 10mm. Yes I do own a 10mm.

[ole 5 hole group]

A 255 grain hard cast out of a 45 ACP at +P pressures will do about 960 FPS or so. That combo hits with real authority. I'll take take load over a 10mm. Yes I do own a 10mm.

I don't own a 10mm but I agree, that particular round can easily go 960FPS and more if desired, using the right powder (VV N350 etc), and there's no game animal on the North American Continent that can't be easily harvested using that round.

[NavyVet1959]

A 255 grain hard cast out of a 45 ACP at +P pressures will do about 960 FPS or so. That combo hits with real authority. I'll take take load over a 10mm. Yes I do own a 10mm.

Given equal velocities, a bullet with a higher sectional density will penetrate deeper than one with lower sectional density. Sectional density is usually stated as weight of the bullet divided by the square of the diameter. If you want to get picky, it really should be the weight of the bullet divided by pi divided by the square of the radius (since pi * square of radius is the area of a circle). It's just a rough indicator of penetration potential though since it does not take into account skin friction.

Using this formula, a 200 gr .400" bullet is going to have the same sectional density as a 254.25 gr .451" one. A 220 gr .400" bullet would need about a 280 gr .451" bullet to have an equal sectional density.

[rosewood]

Layman's translation, a 200 grain .40 bullet will penetrate more than a 200 grain .45, but it is a smaller diameter hole.

[Love Life]

In shooting both in different, but similar platforms, I find the 45 ACP more controllable when doing rapid fire. In the 1911 platform the 45 acp is much more noticably controllable than the 10mm.

In the Glock platforms the 10mm is just a tad bit slower on the recovery but much better with rapid fire. However, the 45 ACP beats it out for me with fast and accurate hits.

[NavyVet1959]

Layman's translation, a 200 grain .40 bullet will penetrate more than a 200 grain .45, but it is a smaller diameter hole.

Agreed... It's slightly smaller, so the question becomes whether the increased penetration makes up for the slightly smaller diameter hole. Personally, if I have an angry hog headed towards me, I want a my Glock 20 with 215 gr cast bullets over my Glock 21 with 230 gr ones. Now, I've recently converted a G21 to .460 Rowland, so it might start being an option if I ever find a holster that doesn't snag on the compensator.

[rosewood]

Agreed... It's slightly smaller, so the question becomes whether the increased penetration makes up for the slightly smaller diameter hole. Personally, if I have an angry hog headed towards me, I want a my Glock 20 with 215 gr cast bullets over my Glock 21 with 230 gr ones. Now, I've recently converted a G21 to .460 Rowland, so it might start being an option if I ever find a holster that doesn't snag on the compensator.
I carry 16 rounds of 200 grain WFN loaded to 1225fps in my Para 16-40 just for that angry hog scenario. And believe or not, this hot load is the most accurate in my particular weapon.

[NavyVet1959]

I carry 16 rounds of 200 grain WFN loaded to 1225fps in my Para 16-40 just for that angry hog scenario. And believe or not, this hot load is the most accurate in my particular weapon.

What powder, charge, and OAL? Stock recoil spring?

At 667 ft-lbs, that's pretty good for a .40SW. Except for hunting, my 10mm normally is loaded at 554 ft-lbs with Red Dot and a 175 gr cast.

[rosewood]

What powder, charge, and OAL? Stock recoil spring?

At 667 ft-lbs, that's pretty good for a .40SW. Except for hunting, my 10mm normally is loaded at 554 ft-lbs with Red Dot and a 175 gr cast.

It is a 10mm. Olympic arms bbl I believe. Pressure would be unsafe in a 40 case.

[Markbo]

I don't own a 10mm but I agree, that particular round can easily go 960FPS and more if desired, using the right powder (VV N350 etc), and there's no game animal on the North American Continent that can't be easily harvested using that round.

Does that mean you'd plan a hunt for coastal brown bear with a .45 ACP?

[NavyVet1959]

It is a 10mm. Olympic arms bbl I believe. Pressure would be unsafe in a 40 case.

So, you converted a Para 16.40 to 10mm? I would have thought that the .40 mag would not be long enough for full length 10mm ammo.

[NavyVet1959]

Does that mean you'd plan a hunt for coastal brown bear with a .45 ACP?

Maybe if the bear was right on the coast at the water's edge and I was in a boat pointing away from shore with the engine running. :)

On the other hand, a full-auto Thompson with a drum mag?

[Garyshome]

Well I see this post went exactly nowhere.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well the answer to the OP's question is the 10MM! Thats pretty straight up. One popular but economical way to go for pistol long shots with this cartridge is the Glock 20 with a 6 inch barrel and rightous real 10MM ammo!

[Hunter]

Here are a few ballistic tests i have done that may help answer some of your questions.

45 Auto http://rangehot.com/tag/45-auto-ballistic-test/

10mm Auto http://rangehot.com/10mm-auto-ballistic-test-updated/

Personally, the 10mm Auto is my favorite handgun caliber.

[NavyVet1959]

Hi,
Well the answer to the OP's question is the 10MM! Thats pretty straight up. One popular but economical way to go for pistol long shots with this cartridge is the Glock 20 with a 6 inch barrel and rightous real 10MM ammo!

I'll see your G20 with a 6" barrel and raise you a G21 with a 6.61" threaded barrel, compensator, and 24 lb recoil spring.

https://sites.google.com/site/navyvet1959/miscellaneous/glock-handguns/glock-21-45-super-+p+-320.jpg

I call it my .45 SUPER +P+ (i.e. .460 Rowland that uses normal .45 ACP / SUPER length brass).

I also have a G20, but it is stock (for now, at least).

[MrBFR]

I'll vote .45 on this one. I've owned my share of 10mm's and will admit that it's a good cartridge, but when you consider that with a .45 ACP you can step up the the .45 Super/460 Rowland, then it's clearly got the advantage over the 10mm simply by shooting bigger caliber and heavier bullets.

I've done a lot of .45 Super work ups and from a Gen4 G21 with 5" KKM comped barrel I can run anything from a 185gr to 1600 fps to a 300gr hardcast to 1150 fps. I've been leaning more towards to 250gr range because using .45 Colt designed hollow points (or hardcasts), the Super can run them to 1325 fps from my 5" comped KKM Glock, and unlike the 10mm shooting .40 S&W bullets faster than they're designed to go, these .45 JHP's can handle it.

http://i.imgur.com/x7BlnWz.jpg

All that said, even a .45 ACP +P shooting a 255gr WFNPB hardcast at 1000 fps (5" bbl) will kill a LOT of critters, and for the bigger bullets the .45 does have the upper hand advantage.

[rosewood]

So, you converted a Para 16.40 to 10mm? I would have thought that the .40 mag would not be long enough for full length 10mm ammo.

Para did not shim the cartridge forward in their .40 mags the way the 1911s were. They are the same size as the .45 mags only have some ribs in the side so they don't climb over each other coming up. The 10mm fits fine in the 40 mag. The p16-40 is the same frame as the p14-45s. Only a different slide and ribbed mags.

[rosewood]

...and unlike the 10mm shooting .40 S&W bullets faster than they're designed to go, these .45 JHP's can handle it.




The 10mm was the original, the 40S&W was the offspring, not parent. I haven't had any issues with the ".40" bullets traveling faster than they can handle in my 10mm. :)

[NavyVet1959]

The 10mm was the original, the 40S&W was the offspring, not parent. I haven't had any issues with the ".40" bullets traveling faster than they can handle in my 10mm. :)

I like to think the .40SW as the retarded stepchild of the 10mm. :)

It's sole reason for existing is because the girly-men at the FBI couldn't handle a REAL caliber.

[charlie b]

I like to think the .40SW as the retarded stepchild of the 10mm. :)

It's sole reason for existing is because the girly-men at the FBI couldn't handle a REAL caliber.


LOL. And the 10mm came about because of the "9mm shootout". Now I hear they are going back to 9mm??!!

If I were using an auto for hunting I'd have the 10mm with long slide/bbl.

Anything else I'd pick the .45

[NavyVet1959]

LOL. And the 10mm came about because of the "9mm shootout". Now I hear they are going back to 9mm??!!

If I were using an auto for hunting I'd have the 10mm with long slide/bbl.

Anything else I'd pick the .45

My heavy 10mm loads use a 210 gr .41 mag cast lead bullet resized to 0.401". With my 50:50 alloy, it casts at an average of 215 gr.

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/lee-tl410-210-swc-resized-10mm-2-320w.jpg

Using sectional density as a guideline, by my calculations, it would require a 273 gr .45 ACP bullet at the same velocity to have equal penetration. Don't know about you, but I don't have any 273 gr .45 ACP bullets. Lee does make a C452-300-RF that is normally used in .45LC and .454 Casull, so I guess it might be *possible*, but I'm not so sure it would feed in a semi-auto.

[charlie b]

I still prefer the.45, despite those kinds of numbers. Best balance for me between size of wounds, penetration, and recoil. I do not load or use +P loads, just std stuff.

A 10mm is a good choice, as is the .357Sig and .357 Mag (in revolvers). Just my preference for SD type stuff is the .45

[Maine1]

I'll vote .45 on this one. I've owned my share of 10mm's and will admit that it's a good cartridge, but when you consider that with a .45 ACP you can step up the the .45 Super/460 Rowland, then it's clearly got the advantage over the 10mm simply by shooting bigger caliber and heavier bullets.

I've done a lot of .45 Super work ups and from a Gen4 G21 with 5" KKM comped barrel I can run anything from a 185gr to 1600 fps to a 300gr hardcast to 1150 fps. I've been leaning more towards to 250gr range because using .45 Colt designed hollow points (or hardcasts), the Super can run them to 1325 fps from my 5" comped KKM Glock, and unlike the 10mm shooting .40 S&W bullets faster than they're designed to go, these .45 JHP's can handle it.

http://i.imgur.com/x7BlnWz.jpg

All that said, even a .45 ACP +P shooting a 255gr WFNPB hardcast at 1000 fps (5" bbl) will kill a LOT of critters, and for the bigger bullets the .45 does have the upper hand advantage.

What kind of setuop are we talking? barrel/recoil springs ? do you really need a compensator? Does the 45 acp properly chamber( not just held on the extractor) in the same barrel. This last would eb crucial for me to consider it- can i run a mag of super, and follow it up with a mag of plain old ACP with no reliability issues?
makes me curious.

[NavyVet1959]

What kind of setuop are we talking? barrel/recoil springs ? do you really need a compensator? Does the 45 acp properly chamber( not just held on the extractor) in the same barrel. This last would eb crucial for me to consider it- can i run a mag of super, and follow it up with a mag of plain old ACP with no reliability issues?
makes me curious.

What I did was go with a .460 Rowland conversion, except that I stayed with a .45 ACP chambered barrel. The .460 Rowland brass is 1/16" longer in order to prevent you from putting a round that is loaded to .460 Rowland pressures in a gun that has not been modified to handle it. The .460 Rowland is loaded to the same OAL as the .45 ACP and .45 SUPER, so the bullet just sits a bit further down in the .460 Rowland brass. According to Rowland though, their conversion can also shoot .45 ACP, but that means that it will be headspacing on the extractor. I don't have a problem with headspacing on the extractor in the Glock, but supposedly not all M1911s are up to being able to do that. Rowland originally said that you must have a compensator, but lately they have been selling ported barrels also due to the idiotic Land of Fruits and Nuts (i.e. California) rules. My conversion uses the Lone Wolf 6.61" .45 ACP threaded barrel, the Lone Wolf compensator, and a 24 lb recoil spring. When I tried this configuration with Winchester White Box .45 ACP ammo, it would not eject the brass. That's not a major issue for me since I don't shoot commercial ammo, but I was curious if it would work, so I gave it a try. Now, the couple of shots that I've done so far with it to test it has been with regular .45 ACP brass, not .45 SUPER, but I have not had a case rupture like some might have expected. I'm using a load of 11.0 gr of Longshot with a 230 gr truncated cone cast bullet (Lee mold). The .460 Rowland brass is the same thickness as the .45 SUPER brass.

The only problem that I see so far with this conversion is that the compensator that I went with combined with the barrel length does not work with any of my existing holsters. The compensator catches on the Kydex holsters when you are drawing the gun. For hunting, I'll probably try to find some sort of pouch holster, possibly a chest one. It's quite possible that the compensator that MrBFR went with will still work in a standard holster though.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, I'll admit that I didn't read every single post in this thread. With that disclaimer out of the way, I'm always a bit amused by debates over handgun cartridges and their related platforms when the pundits are trying to make a case over a few fps/grains/bullet shape/knockdown power (whatever that is) and other measurements at the ragged edge of the handgun performance envelope.

A handgun is a defensive tool and generally used at relatively short ranges. In some circumstances, with an ethical individual, it can be used as a hunting tool.
A lot can be done with a handgun but there's a limit to real performance. At some point it becomes a debate over numbers with fairly trivial differences. At some point you just have to GET A LONG GUN !

OK, got that out of my system, rant off

[Intel6]

I have both caliber's in autos (single stack and hi caps) and in revolvers. I like and enjoy shooting both but for me it comes down to a few things; power and capacity.


POWER: I understand the power thing can be debated and projectile bullet diameter and weight need to be taken into account. For me I shoot my own cast 220 gr. WFN GC bullets which I can load up to 1,100+ fps out of a Glock 20 with a factory length aftermarket barrel. I haven't worked it up yet in a 6" aftermarket barrel. with the WFN design I feel that I am making up for the loss of diameter.

CAPACITY: Some are not talking about the fact that you loose rounds when you shoot the bigger diameter and that may be important. With that I think about diameter above I would rather have the extra rounds in the gun.


So here is what I am working, understand there are lots of different opinions on this and here is mine. :smile:

Glock 20 Longslide with full weight aftermarket slide and KKM 6" barrel. the magazine holds 20 rounds or a total of 21 rounds of 220 gr. WFN ammo in the gun.

The pic below shows a 200 gr bullets that was pulled from some Doubletap 10mm ammo and the LBT WFN bullet I cast for my 10mm loads.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/G20L_WEB.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/10mm_bullets.jpg

[jmort]

If that feeds, that is an impressive load.

[Markbo]

Intel6 do you have a pic with your bullet loaded?

[Maine1]

Thanks, Navyvet! I researched the Rowland years ago, and have not looked at it since. Its a great round- as i am a 44 mag fan- but i passed on it. The 45 super also sounds good. In y research on it, it is said that the 45 ACP wil als function, but with the diferencein brass spec they did not mention anything about whether the case is held by the extractor or is headspacing on the case mouth, thanks for confirming this. So its similar to shooting 40 in the 10mm: reliance on the extractor to hold the round for firing. I'm not a big fan of this. works well enough i suppose, but not for me, at least for regular use.

While this is a cool setupa nd round, i might stick with the 10m, as I'm already well established in it, and there is not much the 45 suoper would do OVER the 10mm that i need done.


That said, how is the 45 super/Rowland at distance for you? I find the smaller dia. 10mm to have good SD, and to be pretty flat shooting. Does the increased velocity make the shorter fatter bulet less an issue. ( sure we are talking a few thousanths of an inch, but it makes a diference in this aplication.)
I like doing distance pistol work, and if i WAS to get a "FASTER 45" thats what i would do with it.

[NavyVet1959]

Thanks, Navyvet! I researched the Rowland years ago, and have not looked at it since. Its a great round- as i am a 44 mag fan- but i passed on it. The 45 super also sounds good. In y research on it, it is said that the 45 ACP wil als function, but with the diferencein brass spec they did not mention anything about whether the case is held by the extractor or is headspacing on the case mouth, thanks for confirming this. So its similar to shooting 40 in the 10mm: reliance on the extractor to hold the round for firing. I'm not a big fan of this. works well enough i suppose, but not for me, at least for regular use.

While this is a cool setupa nd round, i might stick with the 10m, as I'm already well established in it, and there is not much the 45 suoper would do OVER the 10mm that i need done.


That said, how is the 45 super/Rowland at distance for you? I find the smaller dia. 10mm to have good SD, and to be pretty flat shooting. Does the increased velocity make the shorter fatter bulet less an issue. ( sure we are talking a few thousanths of an inch, but it makes a diference in this aplication.)
I like doing distance pistol work, and if i WAS to get a "FASTER 45" thats what i would do with it.

The .45 Rowland is like a .45 SUPER +P+ or more.

SAAMI specs:


.45 ACP -- 21,000 psi
.45 ACP +P -- 23,000 psi
.45 SUPER -- 28,000 psi
.460 Rowland -- 40,000 psi


There's a 9.5% increase from .45 ACP to .45 ACP +P.
There's a 32% increase from .45 ACP to .45 SUPER.
There's a 42.8% increase from .45 SUPER to .460 Rowland.

So, my calling my configuration .45 SUPER +P+ is probably not quite accurate since it does operate at the full .460 Rowland pressures (just uses the .45 ACP / .45 SUPER brass). But, since there is no SAAMI official definition of "+P+", I guess I'll continue to call it that for now.

All of my shooting has been in my garage to test for function. I have not had a chance to take it to a range. Without magnified optics though, the limiting factor on any long range shooting is going to be me and my old eyes.

With the .460 Rowland though, by the very nature of the difference in brass length, the a .45 ACP round has to headspace on the extractor when fired in the .460 Rowland chamber. I don't have a problem with that with the Glock extractors, but it might be an issue with some M1911 handguns. I regularly shoot my G20 with .40 brass loaded to 10mm OAL and even .40SW rounds in the stock 10mm barrel without any problems, so doing that same thing with a .460 Rowland chambered barrel would not concern me. I went with a normal .45 ACP chambered barrel though for brass availability and to save $50 on the cost of the barrel. That extra 1/16" depth of the chamber costs $50 at Lone Wolf. It's sole purpose is to prevent you from being an idiot and putting a .460 Rowland round in a gun that has not been modified to handle it.

If you already have a compensated .45 barrel (or maybe even a ported one), all it is going to cost you to change to being able to handle the ".45 SUPER +P+" is a 24 lb recoil spring in the G21. That makes for a VERY CHEAP conversion.

[jmort]

If you want to get some serious power, close to .41 mag, the 460 Rowland is the way to go. If you want something similar to a .357 mag the the 10mm makes sense.

[NavyVet1959]

If you want to get some serious power, close to .41 mag, the 460 Rowland is the way to go. If you want something similar to a .357 mag the the 10mm makes sense.

Rowland claims that the .460 Rowland "delivers true .44 Magnum power".
http://460rowland.com/about

I believe that might be true for some .44 mag loadings, but these are not max .44 mag loadings. He states that it gets 1550 fps with a 185 gr bullet out of a 5" barrel. That means about 987 ft-lbs. Looking on various powder sites for .44 mag loadings, I see some loads that are less power, but I also see some that have more power. Plus, there are .44 mag loadings that have bullet weights over 300 gr if you need that sort of penetration. I think that I would say that the .460 Rowland is equivalent to the lighter .44 mag loadings, but there is a lot more range for increased power with the .44 mag. What the .460 Rowland does give you though is more rounds even without some ridiculously long extended magazine on the Glocks. Even the .41 mag has a couple of loads that exceed the .460 Rowland. Be that as it may though, the .460 Rowland does provide an increase in power per round over the 10mm. If you already have a handgun that you can do the conversion to, it's probably worth considering doing it (at least with the .45 SUPER +P+ way that I did it) if you intend to use it as a backup gun for hunting, but it's probably a bit overkill as an everyday carry self-defense type of gun. Besides, it you go with the Lone Wolf compensator, it doesn't work with a lot of existing holsters that well. Going with a ported barrel (as long as the portings are past the end of the slide) might make more sense in that sort of situation though.

[Clark]

I have overloaded numerous cartridges to the limit and the weakest worst case heads are 10mm, 25acp, and 30 carbine.

More power can be had from a 45acp case or even a 40sw case than a 10mm case.

That said, I challenge anyone with typical slide mass to deal with the kind of recoil the 10mm can safely produce when exceeding SAAMI up the the limit and back off a sane amount of safety margin on case head strength. Maybe with a Desert Eagle slide it can be done, but with a Glock 20 slide and very stiff recoil springs, not much more that SAAMI can be done before the slide starts slamming the frame.

[Markbo]

Well anyone who routinely loads any case over SAAMI spec on purpose deserves what they get.

[Chev. William]

I have overloaded numerous cartridges to the limit and the weakest worst case heads are 10mm, 25acp, and 30 carbine.

More power can be had from a 45acp case or even a 40sw case than a 10mm case.

That said, I challenge anyone with typical slide mass to deal with the kind of recoil the 10mm can safely produce when exceeding SAAMI up the the limit and back off a sane amount of safety margin on case head strength. Maybe with a Desert Eagle slide it can be done, but with a Glock 20 slide and very stiff recoil springs, not much more that SAAMI can be done before the slide starts slamming the frame.

I am curious about your experiments with both the .25ACP and the .30 Carbine cartridges. Just how high a pressure did it take to find the 'weak heads' and what were you firing them in?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Pinsnscrews]

Double Taps 230gr WFNGC has been chronoed out of a 6" EAA Witness at 1,114fps average as a "Factory" 10mm round...Parabelum Reasearch 200gr FMJ chronoed out of the same 6" Witness at an average of 1350fps...

Granted, handloaders are having a bit of trouble locating 200-230gr ammo components, several mold makers are working on it.

Currently, my RIA in 10mm shoots 8-9 inches low at 100 yards using handloaded 180gr Rainer Copper Plated Hollow Points over 9.5gr of Longshot. Estimated at about 1300fps which is a little stout for the Rainers, they tend to fragment on impact. But since those are practice rounds...

But what is really nice about the 10mm that no one I have seen address, is that you have 2 sets of load ranges. You can load for .40SW velocities for EDC if over penetration is your fear, or you can load Full House 10mm. All it takes is the proper choice of powder.

I really believe that the 10mm has not yet reached its top end heaviest loads yet. Most factory loads don't even come close to the SAAMI spec 37,500 psiwith most hovering below 32,000psi.

I personally would, and did, choose the 10mm because it is more versital.

[Pinsnscrews]

I have overloaded numerous cartridges to the limit and the weakest worst case heads are 10mm, 25acp, and 30 carbine.

More power can be had from a 45acp case or even a 40sw case than a 10mm case.

That said, I challenge anyone with typical slide mass to deal with the kind of recoil the 10mm can safely produce when exceeding SAAMI up the the limit and back off a sane amount of safety margin on case head strength. Maybe with a Desert Eagle slide it can be done, but with a Glock 20 slide and very stiff recoil springs, not much more that SAAMI can be done before the slide starts slamming the frame.


You do not state what firearm or barrel you were using for your 10mm tests. Stock Glock Barrels are unsupported and therefore cause the dreaded Glock Smilie/Case Bulge in the head area of both 40sw and 10mm. This is a known problem with Glock Barrels and has nothing to do with the strength of 10mm Brass. However, it has been known that Remington has provided poor quality brass in 10mm, almost as if it were simply 40sw brass stretched as opposed to the other way round. This could cause the thinning in the case head area you speak of, again, SAAMI spec on 10mm is 37,500psi, what is the case spec on .45acp off hand?(45acp 21,000psi/45acp+P 23,000)

[NavyVet1959]

I really believe that the 10mm has not yet reached its top end heaviest loads yet. Most factory loads don't even come close to the SAAMI spec 46,000psi, with most hovering below 40,000psi.

I was under the impression that the SAAMI spec was 37,500 for the 10mm.

[Pinsnscrews]

Sorry about the typo, my original source had 36,000psi (as being safe for Glock Barrels) and I typed 46,000 in error. After your post I rechecked and have corrected it appropriately. The correct SAAMI spec is 37,500psi.

10mm-firearms.com has pulldown sheets and chronoed loads from the factory/commercial ammo manufacturers here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T 0E#gid=0

[singleshot]

If we're talking reliable, non-leading, cast boolit loads...the 45 acp wins hands down.

[Intel6]

Intel6 do you have a pic with your bullet loaded?

I had a dummy loaded on my desk so it is tarnished but here it is. Yes, this bullet feeds and fires out of all my 10mm's.


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9x25_220_180_JHP_10mm.jpg

[huntincowboy]

I prescribe to the old school way of thinking, which is bigger, heavier bullets make a bigger hole to bleed from, and it's even better if there's an exit hole. In the 45 acp you can shoot 250 gr bullets at ~960 fps pretty easy, which will penetrate through and through with most NA game, especially deer. I haven't used these loads in 45 acp, but I push a 45 colt load @ 1000 fps and it kills deer dead in their tracks from massive bleedout (sprays of blood, deer ran less than 5 feet). I have no experience with the 10mm, but I'm more than pleased with my 45 colt and 45 acp.

[MrBFR]

I subscribe to the bigger is better concept as well, and while there's nothing wrong with the 10mm, the .45 shoots bigger, heavier bullets. That takes away the need of having to have high velocities, although with the .45 Super/Rowland it can go fast too. For JHP usage I use .45 Colt designed bullets in my .45 Super. I feel they give a decided advantage over the 10mm, although I freely admit that the 10mm works, I just feel the .45 offers more.


But what is really nice about the 10mm that no one I have seen address, is that you have 2 sets of load ranges. You can load for .40SW velocities for EDC if over penetration is your fear, or you can load Full House 10mm. All it takes is the proper choice of powder.

I really believe that the 10mm has not yet reached its top end heaviest loads yet. Most factory loads don't even come close to the SAAMI spec 37,500 psiwith most hovering below 32,000psi.

I personally would, and did, choose the 10mm because it is more versital.

I'm not aware of sites showing what pressure factory 10mm loads are at, so I'm going to guess that you're basing your claim that factory 10mm doesn't surpass 32K PSI based on velocity. If so, you can't do that. It's totally possible to max out a 10mm pressure wise shooting a 180gr bullet to 1000 fps with faster burning powders but get 1300 fps with a slower burning powders.

I look at the 10mm a bit differently than some, and many won't agree but to me it's not worth it over the .40 S&W. There are basically three levels of .40 S&W, first being plinking level gamer loads, second being factory equivalent and third being close to right in 10mm territory. I'm with Clark in that I feel the .40 case is simply stronger than the 10mm and also more efficient than the 10mm, cheaper also (practically free if you just pick it up at the range).

When I loaded for the 10mm, a max load of Longshot (180gr) would get me around 1260-1270 from a Glock 20. In the .40 S&W, I get around 1250 fps from a Glock 35 (180gr) and a max load, and with a little working up, 1300 fps is possible. Drop a 6" .40 barrel in there and it's on up to 1400 fps all while burning less powder. Now it's not my intention to say the 10mm can't go faster, because it can (at least somewhat) but considering that even at an impact velocity of 1300 fps, that's not only maxing out every 180gr JHP bullet, but it's driving them too fast and penetration is practically guaranteed to suffer because that's faster than they're designed for.

It's my opinion that even for the tougher 180gr bullets like the XTP and Gold Dot that an impact velocity of no more than 1200 fps is preferable and will keep the bullet together better than 1300+ and no animal will know the difference, and you don't need a 10mm to get those speeds. 200gr pretty much the same story and I can run them to 1300 fps from a 6" .40 S&W, again plenty for the caliber and certainly enough for the bullet design, heck the only 200gr worthwhile at the speed is either the XTP JHP or a good WFNGC hardcast. So you'll burn less powder and save money on stronger brass, practically free brass in the .40 S&W.

Both take a back seat to the .45 Super/Rowland though.

[NavyVet1959]

It's my opinion that even for the tougher 180gr bullets like the XTP and Gold Dot that an impact velocity of no more than 1200 fps is preferable and will keep the bullet together better than 1300+ and no animal will know the difference, and you don't need a 10mm to get those speeds. 200gr pretty much the same story and I can run them to 1300 fps from a 6" .40 S&W, again plenty for the caliber and certainly enough for the bullet design, heck the only 200gr worthwhile at the speed is either the XTP JHP or a good WFNGC hardcast. So you'll burn less powder and save money on stronger brass, practically free brass in the .40 S&W.

Both take a back seat to the .45 Super/Rowland though.

If you run 10mm loads (including OAL) in .40SW brass in a 10mm barrel (like some of us do in the Glock 20 and 29), you get the best of both worlds. Range pickup brass is readily available and you have the potential for more than you could get even with a .40SW run past the upper edge of its performance envelope. Personally, I see no need for the .40SW handguns (even though I own two).

[dnotarianni]

Reach down deep and grab a new set of balls. Put 10 grains of 2400 behind a 220 gr .401 in 10mm and feed it to a bowling pin with a 610 smith. Bowling pin flys about 6 feet past the box while 45 hardball just takes them out of the box.
Dave

[jwp475]

If you run 10mm loads (including OAL) in .40SW brass in a 10mm barrel (like some of us do in the Glock 20 and 29), you get the best of both worlds. Range pickup brass is readily available and you have the potential for more than you could get even with a .40SW run past the upper edge of its performance envelope. Personally, I see no need for the .40SW handguns (even though I own two).

How about an XTP 230 grain at 1100+ FPS or a 255 grain at 1075 FPS from the 45 Super. That should sling them off the table with authority.

[arclight]

Maybe if the bear was right on the coast at the water's edge and I was in a boat pointing away from shore with the engine running. :)

On the other hand, a full-auto Thompson with a drum mag?

It was a stick mag, but my uncle did something like that when they were stationed in the Arctic doing mapping flights. Except that it was a polar bear hunt. :)

On the subject, I think you should get a 10mm in whatever platform you like, as well as a 10mm revolver to hedge your bets.

Arclight

[arclight]

Para did not shim the cartridge forward in their .40 mags the way the 1911s were. They are the same size as the .45 mags only have some ribs in the side so they don't climb over each other coming up. The 10mm fits fine in the 40 mag. The p16-40 is the same frame as the p14-45s. Only a different slide and ribbed mags.

FYI, I've noticed that some 1911 10mm mags won't fit a 10mm loaded to max OAL. The Brownell's brand I bought was one of those. The Tripp and Checkmates did not have this issue.

Arclight

[Good Cheer]

10mm or 45ACP at 80 yards?
Are we talking here the choice between diameters with no expected expansion?
Dad did pretty good with his '73 Model 38-40 but I'd rather have more lead.

[NavyVet1959]

FYI, I've noticed that some 1911 10mm mags won't fit a 10mm loaded to max OAL. The Brownell's brand I bought was one of those. The Tripp and Checkmates did not have this issue.


For some of them, the issue might not necessarily be max OAL, but a combination of that with the nose profile since the front of the magazine is curved.

[JHeath]

Semi-autos limit bullet designs. You're a revolver guy who wants sec density/BC in an auto?

. . . bottleneck cartridges feed squarish bullet noses more reliably. Check out the .40 Super. Might (or might not) be an odyssey to get chambered, dies etc. but could be exactly what you're looking for.

Exceeds 10mm ballistics. Maybe it would feed Keith style boolits designed for the .38-40

I'm riffing. Not the voice of experience in this dep't.

[JHeath]

. . . and I got disillusioned with .45 after putting at least 4 (maybe 5) rounds of 230 fmj into a wonded-and-charging badger that weighed perhaps 25 lbs. He covered more than 50' and died about 10' from where I stood with my empty Gold Cup. This was before the projectile and 1911 wave we're now living through. But would not have happened with my .41, so convinced me that guns should be designed around projectiles, not vise-versa.

[jwp475]

FMJ round nose bullet is not very impressive in any cartridge in my experience.

[frank505]

Friend killed a nice whitetail with his 1911. One shot, hit a rib and out, folded him up. WW black talon factory.

[MtGun44]

FMJ RN is not optimum in any cartridge compared to a good FP or expanding boolit.
Several friends have taken whitetails with cast 200 SWC in .45 ACP without drama, and a
friend and wife have taken several whitetails with 10mm with expanding jbullets, again
without drama - bang, run a bit, then flop.

Only diam improves FMJs, 45 better than 9mm, but both worse than a good HP design
to modern specs.

Bill

[35remington]

JHeath, the same thing would have happened with FMJRN from a 10mm, a 9mm, a 40, or a 45, and yes, your 41 too. It was the bullet, not the cartridge. FMJRN don't expand and don't make much of a wound channel. As you found out.

[JHeath]

Oh I know, but thanks for the input. Not the fault of the cartridge except that some guns limit bullet choice, and the 1911 like most autos is one of them, by comparison to a revolver (including the .41)

I am not a 1911 expert but my understanding is that SD bullet design for the 1911 must be balanced between efficiency and feeding reliability, to some extent mutual exclusives in that pistol.

(And much progress with auto bullets has been made since my badger encounter circa 1981, when I was not badger hunting and used what was at hand.)

The .45 however has a reputation even with FMJ for knocking down fanatic Japanese soldiers, Chi-Coms in Korea, etc. And was designed to flatten hyped-up Moros with FMJ. My experience with it and a 25lb badger leaves me less in awe of it than other people. I'd probably try a .38-200 with a wadcutter next time before a .45/fmj

A bottleneck auto has a feeding advantage. The OP is a revolver guy. So I suggested a .40 Super might allow him to use revolver bullets at revolver velocities in an auto. What's your reaction to that? I never owned a .40 Super.

[psweigle]

My vote goes to the coonan classic .357 magnum. The 10mm would be second.

[jwp475]

Oh I know, but thanks for the input. Not the fault of the cartridge except that some guns limit bullet choice, and the 1911 like most autos is one of them, by comparison to a revolver (including the .41)

I am not a 1911 expert but my understanding is that SD bullet design for the 1911 must be balanced between efficiency and feeding reliability, to some extent mutual exclusives in that pistol.

(And much progress with auto bullets has been made since my badger encounter circa 1981, when I was not badger hunting and used what was at hand.)

The .45 however has a reputation even with FMJ for knocking down fanatic Japanese soldiers, Chi-Coms in Korea, etc. And was designed to flatten hyped-up Moros with FMJ. My experience with it and a 25lb badger leaves me less in awe of it than other people. I'd probably try a .38-200 with a wadcutter next time before a .45/fmj

A bottleneck auto has a feeding advantage. The OP is a revolver guy. So I suggested a .40 Super might allow him to use revolver bullets at revolver velocities in an auto. What's your reaction to that? I never owned a .40 Super.


A properly set up 1911 feeds any bullet types. Mine do now after a bit of smithing by JRH Advanced Gunsmithing. I donot want my gun telling me what bullet I have to use, I want to make that decision.

[Tar Heel]

I vote for the.......what is this thread about again?

[MtGun44]

Well made modern 1911 will feed almost any boolit shape. Boolit weight, length and powder charge
limits are there for functioning, but shape is not much of a factor with a good gun. Definite overall
length narrower range due to magazine length altho some revolvers have short cylinders - like N-frame
S&Ws cannot shoot full length loads that work in K frames and L frames.

Bill

[JHeath]

Bill, does that feeding come at the cost of case support? No feeding advantage to a bottleneck while retaining better case support?

.40 Super can supposedly run a 200gr around 1300 -1400fps. Or 135 at 1800.

My understanding is this is possible in a 1911 partly because the bottleneck allows it to feed without such a big cutout and chamfer around the chamber. Also because thicker brass provides support.

A 10mm can't run with that I think.

[35remington]

Bottleneck cases still need the chamber relief (barrel ramp). Maybe not as wide but just as deep. The barrel ramp is a clearance critical to the gun's function.

Only way for more support is an integral ramp.

[JHeath]

Think this is a fairly complicated subject. I don't question that you are more expert than I. Still . . .
http://www.38super.net/Pages/Bullet%20Design%20and%20Feeding%20Reliability.html

I think it's unarguable that autos dictate bullet profile and seating depth (thus pressure and vel) in ways that revolvers do not. Also that this is tied to traditional problems with case support in autos. Including I think the Glock Kbs where reliable feeding came at cost of borderline pressure.

The wider the case, the higher the bullet nose before it starts up the ramp. It seems like a 10mm bullet in a .471 case has a .023 head start up the ramp from the same bullet in a .425 case.

And the ramp top edge/chamber bottom is .023 lower also, so that's .046" gained.

And once atop the ramp, it's an angled .401 bullet jumping into a .471+ hole.

Whereas the 10mm is an angled .401 bullet fitting in a .425+ hole.

Surely some of this adds up if you're trying to get 100% reliability with a fat nose Keith swc in an autopistol at 37k with a workable seating depth in a bottleneck vs. straight wall .40.

[calshipbuilder]

For 80 yards, I'd be thinking 460 rowland with a muzzle break. I have the Clark Custom Guns conversion. It doesn't smack my hand hard as my long barrel Glock 20 did. You can take an existing 45, swap it over, then swap back when you are done. No need to buy a completely new gun, just a conversion.

FWIW - I prefer shooting .45 acp in my 325 S&W Thunder Ranch. I'm working on a 300gr load for it - something that is difficult to do in a semi-auto

[Chev. William]

If memory serves me correctly, the 'touted killing / knock down' power of the .45 was generated with Lead Bullets before the 'Geneva Conventions' came along to mandate FMJ in combat Bullets.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[35remington]

JHeath, the source/link you posted repeats a common mistake......calling the barrel ramp a feed ramp. It is not. It is a clearance. It is set back from the frame ramp for a reason.....for the nose of the bullet to avoid striking it low. Its job is to avoid a solid hit from the bullet. Ideally, the bullet nose barely brushes the top as it feeds. If the bullet strikes the barrel ramp low, it pushes the barrel up and forward of its frame bed, causing a jam.

The barrel ramp should not get a direct impact from the bullet.....only a glancing, oblique hit on the very top edge barely below the chamber at most, which serves to hold the barrel down in its bed rather than pushing it up and forward on the link like a low strike would do. As such it is not the primary bullet guidance system....the frame ramp is. The barrel ramp's job is to be out of the way of the bullet nose to the extent possible.

The bullet nose is supposed to hit the frame ramp, bounce up and mostly OVER the barrel ramp, and have the body of the cartridge glide over the top edge. As long as that clearance (barrel ramp) exists, the barrel cannot be fully supported. In a conventional 1911, the clearance has to be there or the gun will jam with everything it's fed as everything will strike the barrel low.

The width and forward length of the bullet's meplat and overall length of the round dictate when and where it strikes on the frame ramp. In the linked post you showed the rounds that successfully fed in the 38 Super with the ramp pictures had a meplat that allowed the barrel ramp to be struck only a glancing blow near the very top. That is, a rounded edge to the meplat that is not such a "ramp grabber."

The other thing not generally known is that the rounds "climb the frame ramp" as they feed. The first rounds out of the magazine strike lowest, with each successive round striking higher on the frame ramp.

While it might seem intuitively obvious that a small front end would go more easily into a chamber, full caliber, straight cased rounds feed so reliably that there's not much need to call for a bottleneck to solve feeding problems. If the gun's unreliable, a straight case design didn't cause it. Most jams see the front end of the cartridge at least partially in the chamber. The reason it didn't go in is related to incorrect overall length, cartridge release timing mismatch with the magazine, or a low frame ramp strike and excessive subsequent feed ramp climb angle that make the rim approach the extractor at too much of an angle. Others have to do with inertial issues or a slide speed/magazine spring power mismatch or an excessively blunt bullet with a wrongly shape meplat, meplat edge and ogive. Failure of the extractor to capture the rim (pushfeeding) gets its share too.

A bottleneck would have solved none of these, and these account for most jams when they occur.

A fat nose Keith SWC would be a poor choice even in a bottleneck. A somewhat rounded ogive and meplat edge give better frame glance characteristics (and barrel ramp avoidance characteristics) by far than something with a wide meplat and sharp meplat edge.

Since the first round nosedives the most in a single stack magazine, a flatnosed Keith is statistically more unreliable than a more proper bullet shape. It's at its worst with the first few shots, which is the time you least want a jam.

[JHeath]

JHeath, the source/link you posted repeats a common mistake......calling the barrel ramp a feed ramp. It is not. It is a clearance. It is set back from the frame ramp for a . . .

35remington, thanks much for taking the time to explain. That level and quality of discussion makes CB so worth the time. JNH

[Bearbait in NM]

Too add to 35's most excellent explanation, not understanding this is the main reason folks ruin 1911's with ramp jobs to polish and grind.

And, the other part of this feeding equation is the magazine. You have 3 general types of feed lips on magazine. Tapered, hybrid and wadcutter. Each will release the base of the bullet at a different point, affecting the rest of the feed stroke. And you can probably add in the mags (and gun mods) that set the magazine higher. I like the heavier bullets in my 45 Super and Rowland work, and it is not horribly hard to get bullets with decent meplats to feed properly, if you are willing to learn and experiment.

Craig

[NavyVet1959]

If I notice my ratio of small pistol primers to large pistol primers getting a bit unequal, I tend to start using a gun that uses the primers that I have the most of. Since I tend to use .40 brass loaded to 10mm max OAL in the 10mm Glocks, I can use it for small pistol primers. Otherwise, both the 10mm and .45ACP would be using up my stock of large pistol primers. :)

[JHeath]

. . . and excuse that bottleneck tangent. The OP is a wheelgun guy --presumably used to shooting swc's -- interested in 10mm apparently for velocity Sec density and range. I thought the feeding issue limited that so brought it up. Thanks again for the education and I hope it was of interest to the OP as well.