Traditional, side hammer, longe range ML for elk and deer?

[samwithacolt]

So we might be moving to Saskatchewan from Alberta. I just reluctantly sold my lyman great plains .50 flintlock to fund a Marlin CB .45-70, so I am without a ML.
There is no ML season where I am now, but I will buy a percussion ML if I move to Sask.
I'm thinking lyman .50 or .54, with a barrel sight or tang sight. What other options are there? I want to shoot boolits rather than patched RB's(been there, done that).
What will shoot .50+ cast boolits for 100 yds + and cost under$1000 for the gun?
Not interested in inlines, traditional is just way cooler.

[Tatume]

Personally, I would stay away from the run-of-the-mill compromise guns. For what you're doing, I have the perfect rifle (but it's not for sale). Start looking and sooner or later you'll find a Parker-Hale Volunteer. These are just the absolute finest hunting rifles out there. The Lyman 451114 45 caliber 450 grain bullet will penetrate like no tomorrow and kills like lightning.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/497427/lyman-1-cavity-bullet-mold-451114-45-caliber-451-diameter-450-grain-volunteer

There are several of us on this list who like these rifles, and you can find out more here if you're interested.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208299-451-volunteer-rifle

Take care, Tom

[starmac]

I would be looking hard at post by Idahoron, Johnson1942 and some others that have been perfecting the long rang traditional game. The one thing I see common to many is the discontinued green mountain long range barrel. Iirc it is nagantguy that just happens to have one for sale, unless he has sold it recently.

[idahoron]

Over the counter gun under 1000 is easy. Lyman Great plains hunter with the 1-32 twist. Match that with the Lee C-501-440-RF bullet and paper patch it with 9# onion skin paper and size it to .501. You will have a load that will put out more energy at 200 yards than a 44 mag does with 300 gr bullets at the muzzle. That gun has already proven that it will shoot this bullet accurately. I would choose the one with the Lyman 57 peep and 17 globe. Then I would put a Lee Shavers BPCR insert in the Lyman 17. Then I would have a Limb saver recoil pad put on it and you ready to shoot as far as you personally see fit. That load at 300 yards is still in the 1000 foot pounds of energy range. A Patched Round ball is around 200 or less. That to me is a no brainer for long range. Ron

[deerslayer303]

How about a 1861 Springfield Reproduction? I can't imagine a .58 Minie ball not doing what you want. That is a deadly bullet on game. http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Black-Powder/Traditional-Rifles-Shotguns|/pc/104792580/c/104701680/sc/104641380/Pedersoli-1861-Springfield-58-Caliber-Musket/1389473.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Ftrad itional-rifles-shotguns%2F_%2FN-1100202%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104641380%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253Bcat104792 580%253Bcat104701680&WTz_l=SBC%3Bcat104792580%3Bcat104701680%3Bcat10464 1380

[wgr]

maybe a tc , 28in barrel 1-28 twist. does great with lead boolits ,sabots are paper patch boolits

[smilin jack]

Over the counter gun under 1000 is easy. Lyman Great plains hunter with the 1-32 twist. Match that with the Lee C-501-440-RF bullet and paper patch it with 9# onion skin paper and size it to .501. You will have a load that will put out more energy at 200 yards than a 44 mag does with 300 gr bullets at the muzzle. That gun has already proven that it will shoot this bullet accurately. I would choose the one with the Lyman 57 peep and 17 globe. Then I would put a Lee Shavers BPCR insert in the Lyman 17. Then I would have a Limb saver recoil pad put on it and you ready to shoot as far as you personally see fit. That load at 300 yards is still in the 1000 foot pounds of energy range. A Patched Round ball is around 200 or less. That to me is a no brainer for long range. Ron

idahoron, yes those sights are nice. The 57/17 combo is on my Great Plains 50 with RB barrel. Really like how the rifle shoots RB.
Have been experimenting with the TC maxi-hunter slug in the RB barrel. The lighter slug didn't work too well, but the heavier one works OK getting a better group, but nothing like the RB. Have been looking at replacement slug barrels.

http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=71&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes

Used rifles are out there. Found my Great Plains in a newspaper ad listed as a 54 cal for $200. Turned out to be a 50 cal and got it for less than his asking price. It was nearly new and a good shooter.

Dave

[rlb]

Lyman Great Plains Hunter. Mine shoots the Lee bullet that Ron describes very accurately. It's a hammer on game and easy to put together. The sights he mentioned are a good idea also. Keeps you under $1000 and on target a long ways out there.

100 yd group.

[swathdiver]

How about a Parker Hale or Pedersoli 2-Band Enfield Naval Rifle?

[Fly]

Great plains hunter,I also have the same set op as rlb shows.Ron taught me also & it is the best shooting ML I own

Fly

[rlb]

121690121691

If nothing else, they just look good.:wink:

[rodwha]

Is a 1:48" twist enough to stabilize those 440 grainers? They look to about 3/4 of an inch long. Is that right?

[rlb]

Is a 1:48" twist enough to stabilize those 440 grainers? They look to about 3/4 of an inch long. Is that right?

Im thinking you'll have to stay in thee lower 30's for a twist rate for those bullets.

[rodwha]

I've yet to work with them seriously, but I've shot three of the 320 grn REALs from my Deerstalker (1:48"), and the first was a flier having keyholed at 50 yds, and so the next 2 used a felt wad and both were nearly touching and just under bull. This was using my typical 70 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford/Triple 7 charge for PRB's. It gave me such a nice warm and fuzzy feeling I bought the mold!

440 grns seems rather heavy, but looking at the pic on Lee's site it appeared to only be about 3/4" long, and according to a twice calculator I'd need about a 44" twist. That was at 1375 fps.

[idahoron]

The 500 S&W is actually closer to 460 gr with pure lead. They also are 0.900 long. Ron

[rodwha]

Faster twist indeed!

Idaho: I read above that you place a recoil pad on your GPH. Do you reshape your stock?

[fouronesix]

For long range hunting of deer and elk I think a scoped 300 Win Mag would match the premise.
For hunting deer and elk with a traditional muzzleloader, my favorite would be something like a 54 cal Model 1841 (Mississippi) rifle. The originals with good bores are very expensive but there are plenty of repros out there in a much more affordable price range. The accuracy of my original with the 54 cal Lyman Minié is uncanny.

[bubba.50]

there's a Great Plains Hunter on Gunbroker right now with a $325.00 buy-it-now price on it. the guy's pix ain't the best so, can't really tell much but it looks pretty good to me.

[fouronesix]

While my passion is with muzzleloading military rifles and muskets, the Lyman Great Plains rifle is a good option. I'd choose the 54 caliber.

For roundball shooting, the GPH with 60" twist would be a good choice. Extra barrels are available, so you could have both type barrels- one in 60" twist for PRB and one in 32" twist for conicals. I think even at common going rates you could have one complete rifle plus the extra barrel for well under your limit of 1k.

[idahoron]

Faster twist indeed!

Idaho: I read above that you place a recoil pad on your GPH. Do you reshape your stock?


I actually have TC's. I had my Hawken butt plate cut off and a limbsaver added.

[Good Cheer]

samwithacolt,
I'm waiting on a rebored barrel to arrive with .52 bore and 28" twist to paper patch off the shelf rifle molds.
Just another way to get there.

[Little Boats]

I would also go with the Lyman GPH. With some polishing of the lock my Deerstalker has a sub 3 pound trigger pull. The coil spring locks are quite nice to work with. I cast both .50 cal and .45 cal Lyman TC designed maxis for the 1 in 48 twist guns and am having good success. Groups from the tighter twist GPH should be exceptional. I have found that a tight over powder was is critical to the accuracy of maxis in my gun. I use .54 cal fiber wads in my .50 cal gun.

If it is possible I would do the GPH with a swapped in single trigger in place of the set trigger. With the tune-ability of a coil spring lock, set triggers are unnecessary

[451whitworth]

Personally, I would stay away from the run-of-the-mill compromise guns. For what you're doing, I have the perfect rifle (but it's not for sale). Start looking and sooner or later you'll find a Parker-Hale Volunteer. These are just the absolute finest hunting rifles out there. The Lyman 451114 45 caliber 450 grain bullet will penetrate like no tomorrow and kills like lightning.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/497427/lyman-1-cavity-bullet-mold-451114-45-caliber-451-diameter-450-grain-volunteer

There are several of us on this list who like these rifles, and you can find out more here if you're interested.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208299-451-volunteer-rifle

Take care, Tom
I tend to agree with Tom. But what do you expect from a guy with a screen name like mine. The .45 is superior to the .50 & .54 as a longer range weapon. Great choices in bullet molds too. A 1-18" to 1-24" twist .45 muzzleloader hammers big game when launching 450-500gr. bullets. I use a Lyman 457121 modified to drop either a 460gr. hollow point or 475+ grain flat point. That big hollow point flattens deer like nothing else I have ever seen with body hits. They drop like you spine shot them.

[rodwha]

Idaho: I see that Lee claims a BC value of .296 for the .500 S&W bullet. Do you find this to be accurate? I question the accuracy of some of their values as they show .210 for the .45 Colt 255 grn RF bullet, which seems quite high and dwarfs the BC value of similar bullets of similar weight and design.

They also claim a very high BC value for the .50 cal 320 grn REAL which dwarfs the number you found. It was somewhere around .29 IIRC, which also seems a bit too high. I wonder if the BC value would rise substantially if the speed were greatly reduced? Maybe that's why they give the high number? What powder charge did you use for it?

[Odinbreaker]

Traditional Muzzy form Has a 1x70 twist barrel 36 inch that will fit a renegade. under 300.00 that will give you range and thump

[idahoron]

Idaho: I see that Lee claims a BC value of .296 for the .500 S&W bullet. Do you find this to be accurate? I question the accuracy of some of their values as they show .210 for the .45 Colt 255 grn RF bullet, which seems quite high and dwarfs the BC value of similar bullets of similar weight and design.

They also claim a very high BC value for the .50 cal 320 grn REAL which dwarfs the number you found. It was somewhere around .29 IIRC, which also seems a bit too high. I wonder if the BC value would rise substantially if the speed were greatly reduced? Maybe that's why they give the high number? What powder charge did you use for it?

On the 500 I have that number in my program and it appears to be pretty close. I have the 500 as .296 and I know that BC changes with velocity but I think it is close.
The REAL I had it at .189 I didn't shoot it enough to say if that was close or not. On the 500 I tested it several times buy shooting it at 100 yards making sure it was zero. Then I went out to 150 and 200 yards and measured the drop and compared it to what it should have dropped. I think it is pretty close. I think I shoot pretty well but I don't have the balls to shoot across my Ohler 35 at 100 yards.

[idahoron]

I tend to agree with Tom. But what do you expect from a guy with a screen name like mine. The .45 is superior to the .50 & .54 as a longer range weapon. Great choices in bullet molds too. A 1-18" to 1-24" twist .45 muzzleloader hammers big game when launching 450-500gr. bullets. I use a Lyman 457121 modified to drop either a 460gr. hollow point or 475+ grain flat point. That big hollow point flattens deer like nothing else I have ever seen with body hits. They drop like you spine shot them.

I would agree that a 45 would probably be better. I love mine but they are not legal on an elk hunt in Idaho. I am guessing that other states don't allow them either for elk.

[451whitworth]

I would agree that a 45 would probably be better. I love mine but they are not legal on an elk hunt in Idaho. I am guessing that other states don't allow them either for elk.
You're right of course Ron about .45's being illegal now in Idaho. But at one time they were legal and my Parker Hale .451 Whitworth harvested my only muzzleloader bull elk in Idaho many moons ago.

[Little Boats]

I would agree that a 45 would probably be better. I love mine but they are not legal on an elk hunt in Idaho. I am guessing that other states don't allow them either for elk.

I heard something about this in the Gander Mountain in Beaumont, Texas. I was shopping for toys for my new gun and a guy there was looking for lead rounds in .50 cal. He told me where he was going it had to be lead and no sabot of .50 or larger. I had the last box of lead maxis in my hand as I has not started casting at that point so I gave them to him. He seemed surprised but there was no way I could mess with his hunt prep.

Are the guidelines caliber based only? I can see having a caliber minimum but would think ft-lb energy would be a better measure.

[rodwha]

Boats: Most people would be surprised. These days it's more uncommon I think. Kudos to you though!

[Little Boats]

Thanks rodwha. Lead rounds are becoming hard to find around here. Hornady round balls are no problem but forget abut anything else. I am casting for my Lyman so it is no biggie to me

[rodwha]

A nice hunting style bullet for my Ruger is what lead me to casting. Kaido was the only one with a wide enough meplat, but he was charging $50/100 + shipping on bullets! He also sells the custom Lee molds, but Lee won't make a run until he has enough customers AND they have the time. Lee had been putting him off for months and so I went to Accurate Molds and spent more but got to have a hand in the design and get it much sooner. So I had to learn.

Now I have a RB mold in .457" and .490", pistol bullets in .456" that weigh 170, 195, and 285 grns with a wide meplat, and .50 cal REAL molds that drop the 250 and 320 grn conical.

I've been wanting a drop-in barrel that's <$400 for my Lyman Deerstalker to likely top with a Malcolm scope, though I may try peep sights instead, for hunting fields and such, and have been looking at my projectile/mold options.

[idahoron]

You're right of course Ron about .45's being illegal now in Idaho. But at one time they were legal and my Parker Hale .451 Whitworth harvested my only muzzleloader bull elk in Idaho many moons ago.

I wish Idaho would go with a minimum weight of bullet. It is legal to hunt an elk with a 25 auto but it is illegal to hunt with a 45 shooting a 409 gr bullet.