Engraving upon loading!!!

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Hmmmmm.........I have a brand-new Marlin 336 in 30-30 that I've been anxiously waiting to shoot, but the weather isn't cooperating yet. So, I loaded up some 165 gr BB -FP cast bullets over 5.0 gr of Bulls-eye and headed for the indoor range at the local rifle club! I wanted to use a load such as this for small gasme hunting anyway, so while I await the arrival of spring I can at least start load development on this.

The bullet is a hard cast bullet purchased from National Bullet company many years ago (15?), and was accurate in a friend's rifle, who I was loading for at the time. They mike .3090" OD. Upon loading these cartridges at the range, they fed fine, except for the last 1/4" or so of lever movement. Extracting the round revealed that the bullet was heavily engraved starting at the point that the ogive mikes .300" (yup, micro-groove rifling). They were very accurate in the limited testing I did, 5-shot groups averaged around 3/8" at 50 feet, but you really have to squeeze the lever to get these rounds to load! What's up with that?

And now I'm wondering: If a cast bullet loads that hard, is a J-bullet going to load at all???

Comments and advice appreciated!

Thanks,
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[Lead melter]

No problem. You did not detail if you did or if you did not set up the seating depth to loading manual specs. The nose of the boolit is simply engaging in the rifling...usually very conducive to accuracy, but hard on working the action. Simply measure an unfired round, then seat DUMMY rounds deeper into the case until they chamber with no difficulty. This will then give you a baseline maximum overal length. Load live rounds and seat a few thousandths deeper to be on the safe side. Then try them out at the range. With very little boolit jump, they should still be very accurate.
No problem with the "j-bullet". The ogives are made to work in just about anything. Lots of taper.

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The manual calls for a cartridge OAL of 2.550" maximum. I seated the bullet to crimp in the crimp groove giving a COAL of 2.525". The rifling engraves the bullet at a point 0.100" ahead of the crimp groove and 0.140" forward from there. It's like there is 0.100" of freebore, and then the rifling begins at full depth with no leade whatsoever! I can't seat the bullet any deeper, I'm already at the top of the crimp groove, and as I explained earlier, these bullets worked fine in the three rifles I loaded for that belonged to a friend. Help!

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[Bass Ackward]

The manual calls for a cartridge OAL of 2.550" maximum. I seated the bullet to crimp in the crimp groove giving a COAL of 2.525". The rifling engraves the bullet at a point 0.100" ahead of the crimp groove and 0.140" forward from there. It's like there is 0.100" of freebore, and then the rifling begins at full depth with no leade whatsoever! I can't seat the bullet any deeper, I'm already at the top of the crimp groove, and as I explained earlier, these bullets worked fine in the three rifles I loaded for that belonged to a friend. Help!

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No help needed. 1000 jacketed rounds later, that will be worn down to a nice taper. Dimensional problems will be gone too. Bore will be smoothed up and ready for cast.

Or you can get a Tubb's kit. Or a throating reamer. Or another bullet design.

[Lead melter]

That makes me wonder if the new 336 is designed for the LeverEvolution bullet with all the noise about a flexible-tip bullet. Kind of an answer without a question to my mind. If the throat, leade, etc. are designed for that 'thing', it is beyound my scope of understanding and can't help that part. But, another few suggestions may be in order.

The crimp does not have to be in the cannelure. I've shot a ton of the Laser-Cast 170 grain slugs and crimped them on the driving band that is above the cannelure. A proper crimp is a bit more difficult there, but can be accomplished. If using a combination seating/crimping die, follow the dummy round protocol and then experiment with the amount of crimp you think you will need. Or, buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die for about $15. This joker will crimp into the jacket of a condom bullet.

Option two is to trim some of your brass enough to allow you to seat the bullet in the cannelure. With the load you described, a slightly shorter case should cause no problems. I have trimmed my cases far below manual specs in order to avoid this same scenario. My usual load is 10 grains Unique with a 170 grain RN/FP and have had no problems.

The cheapest and easiest way to try will probably be just to seat the boolit with the cannelure in the case neck, reaching the maximum baseline OAL. If the forward edge of the driving band must seat below the case neck mouth, then try trimming cases.

Good luck. Hope this helps.

[Bret4207]

Ditto what Bass said. What you have is a fairly new rifle that maybe hasn't had a lot of jacketed through it. Your options are to fire a lot of jacketed, fire some boolits coated with abrasive, throat the chamber, or best of all just try a different mould. Lee makes very inexpensive moulds for the 30-30 that will have a different ogive and may alleviate this problem. You can load the boolit down past the crimp groove too. The 30-30 has that beautiful long neck that will allow a lot more leeway than you'd think. There are several answers to your problem. Do a little R+D and see what you like best.

[centershot]

Hmmm....now I'm wondering if a throating reamer wouldn't be just the thing. I haven't tried a factory load in it yet, but the way it looks right now I'd be really surprised if it would chamber. Tapered ogive or not, there's only .100" dreebore and no leade................I'll have to run up to Wally-World and pick up a box to try. Have any of you guys had this problem with your rifles?

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Hi Bret,
a couple of you guys have talked about fire-lapping; I know commercial kits are available but can I do the same thing with cast bullets and J-B bore paste? Inquiring minds want to know!

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[Lead melter]

Yeah, all 3 of my Marlins have had their quirks with cast boolits, and these have had umpteen jacketed bullets down their throats. Running the .309" boolit into the throat is not the easiest thing to deal with. That's how I learned about seating deeper and trimming brass. Don't worry, you'll get it worked out soon and amen to what Bret wrote, the Lee 170 grainer is a joy to work with.

[Shiloh]

Hmmm....now I'm wondering if a throating reamer wouldn't be just the thing. I haven't tried a factory load in it yet, but the way it looks right now I'd be really surprised if it would chamber. Tapered ogive or not, there's only .100" dreebore and no leade................I'll have to run up to Wally-World and pick up a box to try. Have any of you guys had this problem with your rifles?

Thats a great recommendation about trying factory ammo. I'd do that first and the throat reaming last, after everything else has been tried. You may want to try other cast boolits also to see it it happens to them.

Shiloh

[Bass Ackward]

Hmmm....now I'm wondering if a throating reamer wouldn't be just the thing. I haven't tried a factory load in it yet, but the way it looks right now I'd be really surprised if it would chamber. Tapered ogive or not, there's only .100" dreebore and no leade................I'll have to run up to Wally-World and pick up a box to try. Have any of you guys had this problem with your rifles?



The free bore is EXCELLENT. The only negative is the no leade. And I bet a factory will chamber or it wouldn't have been able to be test fired. Without test firing, it doesn't leave the shop.

Read this. It's idiot proof. No enlarged throats or great dimensional changes, just what ain't supposed to be there will be gone. Like firing 500 jacketed bullets without the time or the component cost.

http://www.davidtubb.com/finalfinish.html

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You're absolutely correct, Bass, they HAD to fire proof rounds in it or they never would have shipped it! I can't believe I overlooked that! I'll pick up a Tubbs kit and see what happens....................

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"All who wander are not lost."
J.R.R. Tolkien

[grouch]

I ran into this a few years ago with a friend's marlin. Near as I can see, the bore is a couple thou tight. We were using a load of 9gr Unique with the 170 and 150gr Lee bullets. We got by it by seating the 150gr bullet deeper - there's no need to crimp loads like that if you have decent neck tension.

Hope this helps.
Grouch

[snuffy]

Here's another option to the Tubbs kit.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=646612&t=11082005

Wheeler Engineering makes this universal kit to imbed the bore lapping abrasive on your own bullets. It worked to straighten out a nasty pawn shop rifle my nephew bought,(7 mag.

[mroliver77]

Marlin 30-30 MG have no throat(lead) per se.
There is a "funnel" from the chamber neck size down to bore diameter about .100 long. No freebore really. If you look at factory round the is very little bulet at .308 sticking out of the case. You need a bore rider with a short driving section, or live with lots of boolit in the case or throat it. Since I need a throating reamer anyhow I will be reaming mine.
J

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Thanks snuffy! I canuse the Wheeler kit for any caliber, that'll save me some change!


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"All who wander are not lost."
J.R.R. Tolkien

[Bass Ackward]

Thanks snuffy! I canuse the Wheeler kit for any caliber, that'll save me some change!


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"All who wander are not lost."
J.R.R. Tolkien



Just watch the Wheeler Kit. It ain't idiot proof. You can do real damage if you aren't careful. The other is safer if you have never used one before. The Tubbs system is 1800 to about 2400 where the finest Wheeler is 600 grit.

[35remington]

"It's like there is 0.100" of freebore, and then the rifling begins at full depth with no leade whatsoever!"

From chamber casting a number of levers, most likely you don't have any freebore in the sense of an area missing rifling that is not the chamber. What you have is a chamber with an overly long neck, then a very, very short, sharp taper from end of overlong chamber neck to rifling. If it seems like it has no leade whatsoever that's pretty much correct, the freebore is not even close to your guess of 0.100" long. This extra "freebore" length you measure is very, very often as I have mentioned; all in an overlong chamber neck. This seems to be almost universal and is not ideal.

However, many levers shoot decently anyway, at least in the .30's and over. Dealing with such chamber/throat dimensions in small calibers is a real PITA, and most lead bullet loads will not shoot accurately.

[KCSO]

Seat the bullet deeper and use a Lee factory crimp die and the problem is gone.

[w30wcf]

centershot,
Your cast bullets are likely over .300" diameter forward of the crimp groove and that is causing the interference. A proper cast bullet of .300" diameter on the forepart would probably fit just fine.

Factory ammunition will chamber just fine since the diameter of the bullet is less than .300" forward of the crimp groove.

As was mentioned, seating the bullets a little deeper will solve the issue as will many factory equivalent rounds.

We missed you at the Lever Action Jubilee in Ridgway last Nov. This year the date has been set for Oct. 4 & 5.

Have fun!
w30wcf

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Hello John! Howzit going? Haven't seen you in a looooong time! Yeah, I had to work the weekend of the shoot at Ridgeway, wish I could have been there! Good news is - Now, I pick the weekends I want to work, so no more missed matches!!! And, Cheryl is going to start shooting this year, she wants to start in the smallbore event so she's picked herself out a Henry Goldenboy to get going with!

Well, there's some ideas posted above! John, you're right, it measures 0.3090" for about 0.150" forward of the crimp groove, hence the interference. I just finished loading up 40 rounds with the bullet seated deep enough to just kiss the rifling, and roll-crimped into the nose. I'll head to the range after work tomorrow to check them out. They feed fine and the action closes w/o any problem. I have several hundred of these left, so if this works I'll just shoot them up loaded this way.

The Lee 170 gr. was mentioned above and it looks promising, but I was just over on Ranch Dog's site looking at his "fat-30" - that looks like THE bullet! I'm probably going to order one of those. I'd like to try the RCBS 200 gr. silhouette bullet also, that seems like a good one for the 200 yard rams!

As for the "fire-lapping" - I;m not sure, maybe I'll just shoot the bejeezers out of the gun with condom bullets to break it in!

See you soon, John!

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[w30wcf]

centershot,
Yes, it's been several months. Nice to hear that your wife is going to participate.:-D Glad to hear that you are now in charge of your weekend schedule.

I would suggest staying with the traditional .30-30 bullets ......311041, 311291 or the RCBS 180 FN. The 170 Lee FN is ok too, but I prefer the traditionals.

I would suggest staying away from the RCBS 200, because, when seated, it will be too long to feed through the magazine.

Take care,
w30wcf

[calsite]

Somethings funny here, sounds like it's time to cast your bore, either you or a gunsmith and find out what you got going on in there, unless these boolits are extremely long, which doesn't sound like the case due to their past history in other leverguns. I'd begin to wonder about your chamber dimensions.