Here's one for the gurus...

[Jim]

On another forum, I read about a guy that took a Marlin 1895G to Africa and killed a goodly sized Cape Buff with it. He was shooting Garret brand "Hammerhead" ammunition.
I found their site and sure 'nough, there it is. 540 grains of "super hard cast" lead boolit in a .45-70 case. It says "Use only in Marlin rifles with Ballard barrels". The ammo is listed as "+P". Data provided includes bullet weight, sectional density, trajectory, velocity and chamber pressure.
1- Do all currently manufactured 1895Gs come with Ballard barrels?
2- With all the data provided, how difficult would it be to reproduce this load with a 500 grain round nose bore rider from a Rapine mold?
I have such a mold and have just begun experimenting with developing such a load. The first thing I realized is that to get the OAL to specs, the case capacity goes way down. That long boolit takes up a lot of space. That means, I think, it would require the use of a compressable slow powder or a moderate speed mid range rifle powder. Garrett says 1550 FPS at the muzzle. That would require quite a kick in the pants to get a 540 gr. boolit up to that velocity.

Anybody game for taking a shot(no pun intended) at ciphering what powder/charge would work for such a load?

WWW.GARRETTCARTRIDGES.COM

thanks,
Jim

[Scrounger]

1- Do all currently manufactured 1895Gs come with Ballard barrels?

The ones made in the last 6 or 7 years do.

[MakeMineA10mm]

A picture is sometimes worth a thousand words:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/images/4570540hhp.jpg

This is purely a guess, but I would look long and hard at RL-7. I don't load 45-70, but I do a lot of 444 Marlin. In that similar cartridge, with heavy cast boolits, RL-7 has one whale of a good reputation. Other top powders for that application are H-322 and IMR-4198.

I haven't even cracked open a loading manual, but I bet you'll find something in the Lyman and Hodgdon manuals for heavy bullets like that. Wait a minute....


OK, old Hercules pamphlet says a 400gr jacketed bullet w/ 40.0grs RL-7 gave 1580fps and 24,900 cup out of a 24" barrel. (Note difference in pressure to Garrett's load.)

Western Powders lists Ramshot X-Terminator w/ 500gr Hornady jacketed bullet w/ 44.0grs for 1550fps and 38,500psi out of a 24" barrel. (They also note that this load is for Ruger No.1 & No.3 ONLY!)

Hodgdon #25 lists 482gr GC cast boolit w/ 31.0grs H4198 giving 1299fps (and no pressure reading) out of a 22" barrel.

Now, Lyman does an interesting thing. They divide their data into three groups: Springfield 1873-strength, Win.1886/Marlin 1895-strength, and Ruger-strength! In the Marlin-strength section, the heaviest cast boolit load they list (manual #47) is #457193, which they call out as cast at 420grs from #2 alloy. This data was shot from a Universal Receiver w/ 24" barrel (1:18" twist), so it may not match with your rifle (and keep in mind this boolit is over 100grs lighter than the Garrett).
41.5grs IMR-4198 = 1737fps @ 28,300 cup
48.5grs Reloder 7 = 1828fps @ 25,000 cup
47.0grs IMR-3031 = 1684fps @ 25,000 cup



My personal opinion (and this is NO attack on Garrett cartridges) is that I'd NEVER shoot Garrett's rounds in a Marlin. Ruger #1 or #3, fine, but not a Marlin. They would argue that their bullets are specially designed to put as much of the weight as possible outside the case, and they'd argue that they use custom-blended powders specifically for their applications, etc., etc. And, I concede that these things will help one exceed the normal maximums of most factory ammo and even handloads, BUT, looking at the data above, especially from Western, Lyman and Hodgdon, I can only conclude that to get that heavy of a bullet moving that fast, is too much for the Marlin action. Garrett themselves say that these loads develop 35,000cup. Lyman determined that's too high for a Marlin. Western Powders says 38,000psi is only for Rugers. Well, 38,000psi is DANG NEAR IDENTICAL to 35,000cup...

Basically, it's like shooting proof loads in your gun. They're not supposed to break it, unless the gun has developed some sort of unsafe condition. Me, I don't want to shoot my guns to destruction...

For your 500gr bore-rider, if it was me, I'd start around 34grs of RL-7, and work up slowly, chronographing the whole way and measuring case heads with the micrometer. Considering Hodgdon's load of 482gr Cast/31gr 4198/1299fps has no pressure data and no limits on the guns it can be shot in, I'd say it is safe in a Trapdoor, which means it is in the lowest pressure category. You're bullet is 20grs heavier and RL-7 is a little slower than 4198, especially with cast boolits. I'm guessing, mind you, but I bet you'll hit Lyman's 28,300cup pressure limit for Marlins with a load that gives around 1400-1450fps with your boolit and RL-7. If I were you, I'd stop there, IF I could reach that velocity at all (before other pressure signs make me quit). That will give you more kick in the shoulder than you'll ever need to develop a nice flinch! :) (And, it won't beat up your gun, like those Garrett loads, but still give you a really nice thumper load.)

[lovedogs]

Getting those vels isn't so hard with RL7. Once a fellow at Alliant suggested a load for me to try in my BC using a 500 gr. cast bullet. He claimed it to be safe in my rifle. Well, I shot it alright. And my Chrony said 1540 FPS. I couldn't see that it hurt the rifle any but it darn sure hurt me. Man, that was way hot! I usually shoot those bullets at just under 1200 FPS; real nice load. But add 300 FPS and it knocks the crap out of you!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Shooting cape buff with cast boolits is sorta like playing russian roulette in my book. They are mean SOBs and just about tougher than anything else that walks the planet. Jack O'Connor took 11 shots from a 458WM to stop one once and it expired at his feet. Knowing Jack (so to speak), they mightn't have all been perfect shots, but most of them would have been.

No doubt the Garrett stuff is top flight ammo, but when steel jacketed 45/500gns ammo going faster than a 45/70 levergun could hope for fails, you gotta be thinking that the lead stuff, going slower could as well. Will that alloy shatter like a lot of hard lead alloys?

No point going to africa, paying a bundle and have the guide finish your extremely pi$$ed, wounded animal off and save your butt (or get knoclked down, plyed with, stomped on and finally gored) just to prove the cast boolits are up to the game.

Good luck, I sure hope you don't need it :(

Mick.

[dubber123]

Hodgdon has loads for the Marlin listed that produce 40,000 CUP. I think this is actually a little less than the max for the 1895 action.

They list a 400 gr. Speer jacketed at 2002 fps. using H-4198. They have a load with a 485 gr. cast at over 1,400 fps. and it only makes 20,400 CUP., well within Trapdoor pressures.

The Garrett ammo is listed at 35,000 CUP, well under max pressure for the Marlin. I bet it's pretty uncomfortable though.

[405]

Well,
I think Garrett has done all manner of promoting (marketing) thus penetration testing in different media of their bullets comparing the penetration of the 45-70 ammo they load to 458 Mag.... etc.

No doubt the bullets will penetrate. But have to wonder the motives of folks going on very expensive hunts like Africa other than to be able to brag to the buds back home or for the 15 seconds of fame.... "I shot my such and such big mean critter with a smaller gun than you did...Ha Ha Ha"

Kinda agree with 4fingermick. What's the point? The other thing is I've shot enough Marlin 1895s with full pressure/velocity loads to know it's not at all fun. Some guys even take large Mauser bolt guns and convert to 45-70 to duplicate 458 Mag pressures/ballistics.... what's the point?

Too late, the largest on land has already fallen to the 45-70.... anyone up for a Blue Whale? Or how about an elephant with a 32-40 Win original SRC? Now that'd get you on the Garrett Gallery :)
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/dooleyelephant.asp

[beagle]

Shouldn't be that hard. Take some Lyman 462560s sized .460 and start working up. These feed in my M1895 standard and shoot accurately and feed through the action.

When you get to where you can't stand the recoil, you're there.

Seriously, shouldn't be hard to duplicate those loads as I've shot this bullet up to 1300 something and I was just messing around and not serious./beagle

[725]

Sounds to me like if you risk your health and equipment and get away with it, you are a reloading guru. Have a failure and you should have known better. Wasn't that long ago I was on the line when some zipper head's bolt action let go and gave him a serious hamburger face and took the front teeth out from the shooter next to him. I was third in line and took the experience as a free life lesson. I only got hit with parts of the receiver and shattered stock - no injury. You've got all the pressure information and manufacturer's limits. Stay inside that and I figure you should be OK. Use good judgement and wear eye protection.

[35remington]

Brian Pearce, in a fairly recent edition of Handloader, gave his blessing to shooting 42-44,000 psi loads in the Marlin, and having shot loads that approached that (pain not being one of my favorite things in anything but 20 round doses at a time) I myself would have no problem shooting the Garrett loads in my Marlin.

This shouldn't be "risking your health and equipment" shooting or duplicating the Garrett load as it appears there is still some margin of safety present in the Marlin action at the pressures/velocities produced if your bullet occupies similar case capacity to the Garrett offering.

The cost would put me off some, and I have plenty of my own cast bullets to shoot, thanks very much. No sixty dollars per box ammo for me.

I like the slower loads a lot better for most uses.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive shot many many loads using a 540 ballistic cast wfngc out of a marlin at well over 1500 fps without doing it a bit of harm. Now if i was going to africa on a once in a lifetime hunt with a marlin it would be loaded with punch bullets. Loaded up to snuff with them your giving up very little to a 458 using solids and most solids are round nosed bullets and i personaly would rather have the lfn shape of a punch. There much more apt to penetrate straight.

[Bass Ackward]

I don't understand the issue.

You can do this with 38 grains of 3031 for about 34,000 psi depending on seating depth of course. Should be a good load as it is about 98% density. And the 450 Marlin works at 48,000 psi, so the gun ought to take it.

[boommer]

heck I shoot a 45-90 duplex load 535 gr slug over the ol'e crony 1372 fps. avg. in a high wall it is a stiff duplex load, but even don't see why you can't match that load just need that type of a bullet with it's deep set crimping grove so it will cycle reliably. The thing is the way I see it is GARRETT IS A GREAT PRODUCT FOR THE NON-RELOADER THEY STEP INTO THE +P LOADS!
and in this world of liability thats one big step! can us re-loaders casters out preform that load ?
probably.

[EMC45]

I wonder if that loads kicks at all??[smilie=1:

[corvette8n]

I believe on some of the top loads, Garrett brass useses small rifle primers to keep the brass a strong as possible. I notice the differance in kick from factory win or Rem and Hornady Lever revolution, it is not fun to shoot that all day from the bench.

[pipehand]

Corvette-
That small primer thing is not "to keep the brass stronger"- they use it to keep from having detonations in the magazine tube. Because of the size of the 45-70 case, and its rim, when used in a Marlin 1895 action, there is a "belly" in the mag tube to let the rounds turn the corner from the loading gate into the tube.
This "curve" and the meplat used on those particular rounds, would let the edge of the meplat contact large primers. With the recoil generated by these blue pills, there were one or two instances of mag tube ignition. I can't say for certain if the rounds were loaded by Buffalo Bore or Garret, but I do know that Starline makes the cases for that company, and they will not sell them to anyone else by contract agreement.

[Junior1942]

Unless you're shooting elephants or cape buffalo I see no need for such loads. But it's your shoulder, your gun, and I assume you have hospitalization and burial insurance, so go have fun.

[The Nyack Kid]

A while back i designed a 540 gr boolit that Mountain molds made for me. it has a boreriding flatnose .460 inches long with a 82% memplat . i have a winny 1886 and it feeds boolits that a marlin would choke on . as i remember 1500 fps was easy to obtain with Reloader 10x and Hodgens 322 and 335 . recoil was not what one would expect . it is more of a shove in stead of a kick . my loads that move a 485 gr boolit 1750 are somthing else and ol Elmers load with a 400 gr boolit about kicked me to death .

[AllanD]

The garrett loads with their pure penetrating power are pointless
for any animal in North America....

I believe that for any animal you are likely to encounter that a softer
lighter bullet moving a bit faster makes a lot more sense.

In a Marlin against Elk, Moose or even Bears a 405gr bullet will do all
that needs to be done.

I've said elsewhere that the Garrett bullet even being cast lead
is specifically designed to NOT mushroom and certainly won't at
any speed it can be driven to from the barrel of a marlin, and this
in my opinion violates the spirit of the exsisting game laws in most
states (if not the letter of the law) that expanding bullets must be
used on game.

I'd like to see something living, native to North America that a soft cast 405 at a MV of 2000fps won't either fully penetrate or make it dead where it stands.

AD

[ommin_e]

The garrett loads with their pure penetrating power are pointless
for any animal in North America....

I believe that for any animal you are likely to encounter that a softer
lighter bullet moving a bit faster makes a lot more sense.

In a Marlin against Elk, Moose or even Bears a 405gr bullet will do all
that needs to be done.

I've said elsewhere that the Garrett bullet even being cast lead
is specifically designed to NOT mushroom and certainly won't at
any speed it can be driven to from the barrel of a marlin, and this
in my opinion violates the spirit of the exsisting game laws in most
states (if not the letter of the law) that expanding bullets must be
used on game.

I'd like to see something living, native to North America that a soft cast 405 at a MV of 2000fps won't either fully penetrate or make it dead where it stands.

AD

New here, My first post. I have enjoyed watching this forum awhile now.

Regarding the above quote, I've heard this here and in many other forums, especially the last two lines. What is the actual basis for this statement?

[405]

I would think a soft cast 405 gr bullet at 2000 fps would be a pretty deadly combination. "where it stands" may be pushing it a little but deadly regardless.
My shoulder hurts just thinking about shooting it out of a light weight gun with a little drop in the stock:roll:

Regarding the basis and reading this type of thing on other forums??? Actually, most of what I read on other forums is pretty much the opposite. Goes something like, "you need at least a 300 gr TSX bullet with a MV of at least 2800 fps"

[JIMinPHX]

The Speer #13 book says 28,000CUP for the lever guns & 35,000CUP for #1 & bolt guns. You can do what you want, but I wouldn't put those high-pressure Garret shells in any lever gun that I owned. I certainly wouldn’t go off the books with a bunch of guesswork, trying to duplicate their performance. That is 100% for sure.

[HCL]

I don’t think any ammo company that sells ammo or even publishes data would come close to the danger point with today’s society of sue happy people. If people are suing over coffee too hot, imagine the suit that would follow if you blew up a firearm and got injured with commercial ammo or published reloading data?
There are several custom gun makers that will take your 1895 and hotrod it with their cartridge, which by the way is very close to or over 43,000 with the 45 cal stuff, not to mention rebarreled to 50cal.
I for one have and would not have any issue approaching the 43,000 mark with the 1895. A 405gr at 2000fps will penetrate anything in North America and probably more, (almost exactly my primary load), however the 500gr at 1500fps-1600fps just gives you the option of full penetration from any angle, regardless of shot placement. Which I am now experimenting with the rcbs 500gr.
This may sound as a useless statement and for most it is, but when you live in areas that is inhabited by large furry critters, milking out that extra fps with the big heavy boolits if nothing else is peace of mind. Oh and the 1895 is a very handy little package.
When you have close to 1000lbs of very large angry bear charging at you at 30mph, I don’t care what you are holding in your hands, you will wish you had something bigger! Just something you would have to experience to truly Understand and Appreciate. I am still not convinced they are cute and cuddly and have no desire to pet them.
Just my 2 cents.
Mike

[StrawHat]

New here, My first post. I have enjoyed watching this forum awhile now.

Regarding the above quote, I've heard this here and in many other forums, especially the last two lines. What is the actual basis for this statement?


ommin_e

Welcome to the Forum,

I'll let the others field that question as I load that bullet over black powder.

But even at BP velocities, a cast bullet will penetrate a lot of animals.

[MT Gianni]

Brian Pearce wrote the article about his trip to Africa a few years ago. He did shoot through a buff and kill another behind it with this load. If I were to hunt Africa with a 45-70 I would buy the Garretts. I don't see anything on this continent it's needed for. Gianni

[Larry Gibson]

Anyone want to send me 5 of the Garret's in question and I'll shoot them in my Siamese Mauser 450-400-70 (ok, it's a 45-470 but let me have my halucinations). I've got a strain guage on it and the Oehler M43 will tell us what the pressure really is.

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

"The Speer #13 book says 28,000CUP for the lever guns & 35,000CUP for #1 & bolt guns. You can do what you want, but I wouldn't put those high-pressure Garret shells in any lever gun that I owned. I certainly wouldn’t go off the books with a bunch of guesswork......"

Trouble is, other loading manuals push the permissible levels much higher than Speer does in the Marlin lever. Not an argument, just a fact.

Many knowledgeable writers/handloaders/manufacturers also have no problem with loads that develop Garrett level pressures in a modern levergun. Just a fact.

[softpoint]

I've used loads that would equal, at the least, those garrett loads. I bought two of the 1895' s back in the early 70's. There was at least one reloading manual of that day that only had 2 classes of 45/70 data. It was either trapdoor or modern rifle, and they actually included the marlin and ruger, siamese mauser together. One of my friends and myself played with some loads that very hot. Neither of us ever blew up a rifle. Having said all that, my youth is over and I no longer see pushing a gun unless it's absolutely necessary. Now if all I had was a marlin 45/70 and was offered a hunt in Africa on the condition that I use that rifle, I'd either get a couple of boxes of garrett ammo, shoot at least a box in it for function, Or dig out my old reloading notes and manuals and work me up something so I could go hunting!
Given a choice, however, I'd get a different rifle.
:)

[rvpilot76]

Brian Pearce wrote the article about his trip to Africa a few years ago. He did shoot through a buff and kill another behind it with this load. If I were to hunt Africa with a 45-70 I would buy the Garretts. I don't see anything on this continent it's needed for. Gianni

I read the same, if not similar, article that accomplished the same feat. The ammo, however, was CorBon's 405 Penetrator load. Basically a FMJ with a meplat. As I recall, his guide had reservations about letting him use the 45-70, as he thought it was "too little gun". Something to be said for a big caliber, even if it isn't setting the world on fire in terms of velocity. The velocity of that load is only doing about 1600 fps according to the CorBon website I just visited.

Regards,

Kevin

[MT Gianni]

That was the loads Thanks RVPilot. Gianni

[ommin_e]

How many here have shot anything really big or dangerous with that 400 gr size load?

[HCL]

The 405gr rcbs at 1950fps is very effective on large critters, I have taken most Alaska game with it and have not had any issues with performance! (Water dropped WW)
But with all boolits and loads, shot placement is paramount. Have never recovered this boolit with any animal I have shot, would guess they are still sailing off into the sunset.
This tread accelerated my experimenting with the 500gr rcbs, and spent all day at the range Sunday, at 1623fps it is very accurate (1” groups) and only 5” low from the 405gr load at 100yds. Did not shoot any farther than that, don’t ever intend on shooting critters with it at anything over 100yrds, most of my shots are under 75yds. Loads varied from 1500-1700fps, the sweat spot seams to be 1623fps for my rifle.
I will say that the 500gr load is more of a hard push than the sharp recoil of the 405gr load. Much more pleasant off the bench. (and after approx 100rds I was thankful, and so is my chronograph).
This coming weekend I am planning some penetration tests with green cut birch, it will be interesting to see if it truly will out penetrate the 405gr, and weight retention.
I did stay within published data. No, I am not a glutton for punishment, but always trying something new, looking for something more gooder.
Mike

[ommin_e]

So how about brown bear?

[waksupi]

So how about brown bear?

See what my tag line says about cast bullets. John Taylor shot a nasty critter or two in his career.

I carry some fairly small calibers around here with griz in the hills, some pretty good sized ones. I kinda figure a guy needs to apply the pill in the right place.

[The Nyack Kid]

See what my tag line says about cast bullets. John Taylor shot a nasty critter or two in his career.

I carry some fairly small calibers around here with griz in the hills, some pretty good sized ones. I kinda figure a guy needs to apply the pill in the right place.

howdy waksupi
back in the day (listen to me, i sound like a oldfart now ) when i was wondering those particular hills, i figured that i would put a BIG pill in the right place and i wanted that pill to exit the opposite side of where i put it ( if parts and peices exited along with the boolit, then even better). that was assuming i had a gun with me , i also figured that i may have to go the "texas chainsaw massacre" route when dealing with a bear .

[Four Fingers of Death]

The best of these loads in a 45/70 are still a fair bit shy of a 458 Mag out of a bolt gun and the 458 Mag with STEEL jacketed 500Gn bullets are not considered 100% reliable against cape buff and elephant. Horses for courses, I love my levers and love the 45/70 and love casting booilts, but up against lion, buff and elephant, I ain't shooting anything less than my 416 Rigby with top quality, Steel jacketed ammo. I'd even be a little bit reluctant to use reloads on these sort of hunts. If I was in a position to do it more than once, I'd experiment with reloads, but one off, mega expensive hunt, with any member of the big 5 why go out of your way to prove that you are the only guy on the parade ground in step and common knowledge gained over the past 100 years or so is wrong?

[BABore]

I don't understand the issue.

You can do this with 38 grains of 3031 for about 34,000 psi depending on seating depth of course. Should be a good load as it is about 98% density. And the 450 Marlin works at 48,000 psi, so the gun ought to take it.

Actually the 450 Marlin is rated at 43,500 psi, not 48,000. It has the same action as the 1895, 45-70 which is very consevatively rate at 28,000 cup. Most feel that the Marlin 1895, 45-70 is more than capable of 40,000 cup which is roughly equal to 43,500 psi. The main mechanical difference between the 450 Marlin and the 45-70, as chambered in the Marlin 1895, is the barrel thread arrangement. The 450 Marlin supposedly uses a thread that doesn't weaken the area as much. Then again they take out more material for the case belt.

I have loaded my 450 Marlin GG (18.5" bbl) with 550 gr GC cast bullets to 1,543 fps, ES of 5.3 fps, and Std. Dev. of 2.6 fps using 39.0 grs of H322 and Federal 210M primers. This load was pressure tested by Hodgdon's lab through a fellow that goes by Reflex264 on the Marlinowners, 24hrCampfire, and Levergunlovers forums. He's working on opening a Garrett's-type ammo business for big bore loads. He has pressure test data for the 45-70 and 450 Marlin using JB Youngs Crater (550 gr) and Crater Lite (420 gr) cast bullets. We were both working up loads at the same time and comparing the numbers. When he got his test results back we were both a little surprised.

450 Marlin
Hornady cases
JB Young 550 gr "Crater"
Fed 210M primer
Roll crimp followed by Lee FC
H322 @ 39.0 grs
Avg. Velocity: 1,569 fps
Std. Dev.: 4 fps
ES: 11 fps
Avg. Corrected Pressure: 47,200 psi (43,500 psi max)

450 Marlin
Hornady cases
JB Young 550 gr "Crater"
Fed 210M primer
Roll crimp followed by Lee FC
H322 @ 38.0 grs
Avg. Velocity: 1,517 fps
Std. Dev.: 5 fps
ES: 15 fps
Avg. Corrected Pressure: 43,000 psi (43,500 psi max)

Loads were worked up paying close attention to primer condition, extraction, and case head expansion both on the belt and just above it, as well as watching the chronograph for any tale-tell hints. The 39 grain load looked like a prudent max load at the time. The pressure data said different. Leverguns do not work up and exhibit pressure like a bolt rifle operating in the 50-60 kpsi range. You see signs of primer flow or hard ejection, your way past any sane pressure limits.

For comparisons sake, a 420 gr "Crater Lite" bullet was also tested at he same time. I don't have the hard data in front of me, but I do know that 48.7 grains of H322 lit by Fed 210M's was a max load. Both the 420 and 550 cast bullets, produced by JB Young are a BR design, gas checked, and have a hardness of 21-23 Bhn. Lube was some commercial blue stuff and would guess at Magma. Bullet hardness, design, bearing length, and lube all affect the pressure generated. I believe the molds were made by Ballisti-Cast and are on page 9 of their site.

To date, I haven't loaded that bullet in the 45-70. The 45-70 has a 3 to 7 grain case capacity advantage over the 450 Marlin depending on case brand. Winchester holds the most, followed by Star Line, then Remington. These are all normal brass cases and not nickel plated. Nickel plated cases will raise pressures considerably. Not so much due to a capacity difference, but from being harder. This tidbit was derived from pressure tested data. Both the 450 and 45-70 seem to favor H322, BenchMark, Rl 7, and H4198 for the hot loads. H335 is also useful for the heavy bullets. I've used mostly CCI 200 primers, but prefer the Fed. 210M's if I can find them. In most every case the 210M's will produce better accuracy, ES and Std. Dev.

If your serious about working up a heavy, safe load, I would highly recommend getting on Levergunlover forum. The first forum area is managed by the gentleman I mentioned and deals mainly in big bore load developement.

[MtGun44]

If the 405 Corbon Penetrator (flat pt FMJ) at 1600 will penetrate a adult male
cape buff thru both shoulders and kill the female cape buff behind it, why would
you need more power? The 458WM often penetrates LESS than the .45-70 Corbon,
same hole diameter. How? I don't know, but the data has been tested many
times. Possibly flat point vs round?

I shot a wildebeeste ("poor man's cape buff") in the shoulder with Marlin GG
405 Rem sp at 1750. Bullet penetrated to the hide on the far side, fully expanded
broke both shoulders, he went maybe 25 yds and gave his death bellow before
we got to him. A zebra was shot in the center of the chest with the same load,
fell down immediately, got up, stumbled 15 yds and fell again. A 24" stream of
blood the diameter of your thumb came out of the bullet hole at each breath
for about 4 breaths. PI was very impressed, he had been very unimpressed with
45-70 due to 300 gr HP factory deer loads. Both animals are on the "hard to
kill" list, but even with the relatively 'soft' Remington 405 expanding a lot, the
penetration was good. With a FMJ FP like the Penetrator or Garrett (not FMJ but
hard enough to act the same) the penetration should be thru and thru with
any North Am game on almost any angle.

I think we are just verifying that all the old various .450 cal BP double rifles that performed
well on African game have about the same bullet and vel and are considererd great
choices, and now can be matched in an inexpensive lever gun with smokeless. They
killed lots of African big game before they ever exceeded 2000 fps with a heavy bullet.

Bill

[Bullshop]

Dont know about that dark continent and never will but I have kilt a few big critters here with ol B00. Several moose and bears and some caribou throwed in.
Have use each of the sieries from RCBS for the Marlin, 325, 425, and 525gn among others. If I had to pick one as the best all arround it would be the mid weight.
Couple years ago I used the 325 in acww at 2150fps muzzle for about an 80 yard shot on on a mid size moose. Shot was angling through hit at the sholder and exited base of neck. Moose dropped instantly.
Another moose shot with the 525 in 50/1 lead/tin 1550 muzzle velocity at about 70 yards.
Shot was at the vent from the rear and found that mark. Boolit penitrated to the diafram and was expanded to about .8" to .9". Not a kill shot but made him sick enough he didnt go anywhere. The finisher was from about 20 yards nearly broad side and penitrated to the off side with about the same expansion.
Me n ol B00 were called on to pick up a wonded bear, (griz) to near my house to let go. Without much warning I grabbed ol B00 and lit out at the call. B00 was loaded with 500gn paper patch 50/1 alloy at about 1700 fps muzzle. When I found him in the thick permafrost spruce the distance was short when the bear finally mad his move. B00 knew what to do cuz I didnt have time to think about it. A quick snap shot went right under the chin and that bears lights were out in mid air before he hit the ground. Thank God fer ol B00!
I found that boolit down near the pelvis expanded to about the size of a quarter.
Another bear (griz) shot for meat was feeding in an oat field. It was almost too dark to see right at dusk. I sneaked along the timber line to a place I thought would be about 50 yards from the bear. I positioned myself to the east of the bear so I could look west at the still lighted sky. Once I was ready I gave a squeek on the call that almost always hangs from my neck when I go hunting. At the squeek the bear stood up which is what I was hopeing for, but it seemed I had underestimated the range a bit and he seemed awfuly close. With a perfect silohouett of the bear against the sky I swung the big brass bead on ol B00 till it centered the bear and CABOOM, ___WHAP, and then for about 30 seconds some very unerving growling, bawling and thrashing, then silence.
Now what I thought. I filled the magazine, chambered a fresh round and litterally with wide eyed anticipation inched my way to where I last saw the bear. When I found him he was dead, shot clean through dead center in the chest.
That time ol B00 was loaded with the 525gn RCBS in acww at 1550 muzzle. A 45 hole in front and twice that in back. There aint nothin of flesh and blood in this world that I wouldnt jump at a chance to battle to the death with ol B00 in my hand. How big it is would decide which one of them three boolits from RCBS I would use.
Me n ol B00 we put ourselves in harms way just to see how we stack up and so far we won. When you put yourself in front of a mad critter that may out weigh you by 4 or 5 times and that critter has but one thought to feel your bones crushing between it jaws or beneath its weight mister you and your gun had better both have a cool head and enough of a punch to knock him stupid. Dont nobody know what ya got till yer standin there feelin awful small. Like the time I had ta shoot up at a cow moose that was about to stomp me. Ol B00 done it again but that will have to be another story.
Man I gotta get to work!!!
Blessings
BIC/BS

[HollandNut]

Having been to Africa quite a few times and taken 10 buffs , I aint doing 45/70 with Garrett boolitz ..

Sooner or later somebody is gonna git hurt bad ..

With buff , j boolitz are worth the extra security of their BHN of 100 or so ..

Buff aint a critter ya wanna conduct an experiment on ..

I think Garrett is full of crap and is jus doing some fancy talking ..

My .02 werth ..

[Bullshop]

Hollandnut you lucky rascal you. I aint much for sport hunting but I have always wanted to go pick a fight with a buf.
Here is something to amuse you fellas. At a recent gun show I picked up a stack of American Rifleman from late 30's to early 50's, yup the war years. There is so much good stuff in there I am really having fun with them.
There was a four part article about rifles for African hunting starting at the begining with BIG BORE smooth bore rifles up to the present (bout 1950). The article covers about every caliber/cartridge/ML that was used by the ivery men from the mid 1800's to present. Many of the men that started hunting with ML saw and used all the new development of their time. Now here is the interesting thing, there were several modern cartridges they all felt were were acceptable but the one they all seemed to agree on that would kill as reliably as any of the ML guns and many of the older big bore cartridge guns was, guess what, you aint gunna believe it, the 6.5 Manlicher. The 160gn bullet at 2300 fps they say would equal anything else in penitration and the most critical factor as always was shot placment.
Now dont get me wrong it aint something want to do. I just thought it very interesting that almost without exception they all felt on a professional level they were well gunned with the little Manlicher. However in most cases the bulk of the work was being done with the little rifle most of the hunters did have big bore back up guns at hand being packed by their help.
There is some good reading in these issues and I hope to pass them on when I have absorbed the information in them. Theres stuff here from Whelen, Keith, Roberts, Donnaldson and so many others that many of us have only heard of. Lots of good stuff that still applies today. Also very interesting is the issues they were dealing with at the time, like gun control. Some of the articles sound like they could have come from last months issue.
I wish I could copy the whole article about the guns for Africa and post it here for all to read, its some good stuff!
BIC/BS

[HCL]

Bullshop
Are you coming up to the gunshow on 29-30 March, Palmer fair grounds?
Mike

[Bullshop]

HCL
Dont know. My vehicle gets about 20 miles per gallon so figuring quickly looks like its about $90.00 in gas round trip. I would like to though. Guess at this point I am open.
BIC/BS

[HollandNut]

Yeah there were quite a few of those old guys who were there for the transition from ML to smokeless , who wrote about it .. I had quite a few of the books that were written by them and articles and such that went up in the house fire ..

I still want a four bore double ..

A lot of them did use the 6.5 and 7x57 and 318 WR with great success , however they spent more time in the field in a year than most of us will spend in our lifetime .. They were expert outdoorsmen and for the most part were excellent marksmen ..

Shoot I'd pay shipping both ways to get copies of those articles BullShop , to scan and put on my machine , and post here as well .. But I couldnt blame you if ya didnt wanna part with those mags ..

[MtGun44]

I think the old guys proved that a bullet in the brain is deadly, no matter
what the size. If the sectional density and stability will let the bullet penetrate
far enough reliably, it will work IF YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHERE TO PUT IT
and can do it every time. Me - not that smart, not that brave. I'm gonna aim
at heart and worst case, miss into the lungs.

Neat to read about tho!

Bill

[MtGun44]

Bullshop -

You sound very brave - but in your line of work, you have a lot of 'help' and
the downside isn't so bad as for some. Impressive shooting experience.
BOO is a 45-70 I presume, but what kind - Marlin? (magazine is mentioned so
not single shot).

The penetration of the 6.5 FMJ at ~2300 with my brother's old Carcano back in
my teen years was MUCH deeper in Fla sand than my 140gr pointed FMJs which
turned sideways and flattened. This is why I have always found the "impossible"
single bullet theory in the Kennedy shooting to be very plausible. This particular
cartridge (6.5 160 rn at monderate vel) is an ULTRA penetrator, far more than
most shooter's experience with other calibers, esp pointed and SP.

Out of the country now, with occasional web access - so may be days to get
back.

Bill

[Bullshop]

MTGun44
When Marlin started the second series of 1895's on the 336 receiver they started the serial # range with a B zero zero, or B00. All first year production guns were B00 something. Thats how mine got to be called B00. Me n B00 have been arround the horn and back again and its feels as much a part of me in my hands as any other apendage on me. I have said many times here that there were times it seemed like ol B00 pointed herself.
Brave, I dont know, stupid is more like it. Anytime I have been there I have been shaking in my boots, but for some reason fear seems to be the draw that makes you want to do it again, weird ha!
HollandNut
I wouldnt mind sharing the mags or posting parts of them but I am afraid of doing something I might get in trouble for. I wonder if we got permission from NRA if we could do that?
Blessings
BIC/BS

[HollandNut]

I'm certain that if there were any copyrights to those articles that they are long expired ..

I will contact them and see if the is an issue from their point of view ..

[floodgate]

Dan:

" Also very interesting is the issues they were dealing with at the time, like gun control. Some of the articles sound like they could have come from last months issue."

After several years of paper-chasing, I managed to put together a complete set of the "American Rifleman" from the first issue (under that name; it was called "Arms and the Man" and other names in prior years) of June 1, 1923 to the present date - a few in Xerox copies from the ASSRA' Archives. You are right: some of the gun control articles from the 1920s and earlier could well have been written yesterday.

My collection of "AR's " is in the process of being transferred to a new Archive we are setting up for the Antique Reloading Tool Collectors Association at <www.antiquereloadingtools.org>; I'll put up a post when we are ready to pull copies of specific materials on request.

floodgate

PS: The box of .30 cal. jackets is all packed up and ready to go out to the "Jr.'s" Monday. - Fg

[Bullshop]

Let me know if you would like the dates of the 4 issues that contain the article I was refering to.
BIC/BS

[Lloyd Smale]

Kind of funny that in penetration testing weve done and that ive witnessed at linebaugh seminars the 475 and 500 and even the 45 colt have consistantly outpenetrated 458wins and lotts. Granted these arent cast by inexperienced casters that use improper alloys that wont hold up but it sure shows a guy something. Another advantage is that they will normaly penetrate staigher and leave a bigger wound channel doing it. Could be why theres companys now comming out with flat nosed solid jacketed bullets for dangerous game. I was at one linebaugh seminar and there was an african ph there and he was asked what he prefered on elephant. He had shot a lot of them. He said hes had NOTHING give better penetation on elephants skulls then a 400 grain 475.

Now there isnt to many of us going to africa and if we do there will certainly be a Ph there that is going to back you up with some kind of big double or bolt gun. (probably not what hed be carrying if he was actually hunting) YOur job is to put a bullet where it belongs. No matter what your shooting if you dont do that theres going to be trouble. Im no expert on cape bufflao unless you considering seeing a head on a wall being an expert. I do know guys personaly that have taken them with big handguns and the funny thing is there all alive yet to talk about it.

I have shot 5 bison with handguns in 44 475 and 500 all with cast bullets and all have died in short order. All bullets gave complete penetration (even the 44) and about half of them broke both shoulders doing it. Now thats surely not a cape buffalo but it is bigger and bigger boned and has as much hide as any brown bear.

I get a kick out of guys that will say the big guns are an overkill for deer and black bear. What they do is kill without alot of fanfare. They do less actuall meat damage then a 243. Sure a 44 will do the same but im sure not out there blowing deer in half with my .500. Then the same guys will say that your nuts for hunting a bear with one or something bigger with one. When like i said they penetrate every bit as good, leave just a big of a wound channel if not more then a rifle, why is it that people think there not capeable. Going back to that garret round that is supposidly so underpowered. Look at the ballistics of that round and compare it to dangerous game stopping rilfles that were considered the best in the field 50 years ago.

Most opinions you get on the internet are from guys that have alot more experience with keyboards then triggers. They will quote silly figures like foot lbs of energy that mean about nothing on big game. HollandNut your post kind of surprises me. Im sure if youve taken 10 buffalo youve probably witnessed alot more taken and many taken cleanly with smaller guns like 338s and 375s. Have you ever witnessed a animal that large that was taken with a cast bullet? Have you ever compared wound channels or penetration. Or are you just giving an opinion thats not backed by fact. I respect the fact that youve been there and done that and i havent but like i said ive got friends that have and will argue all day that it worked. As to Garrett being full of crap I dont know. ive never met the man personaly and would never make a comment like that about a man if i hadnt. As to it being an experiment on buffalo ill tell you this. Theyve been being hunted and killed with cast bullets before you were born and still are today. If anything is an experiment its the use of jacketed bullets. there has been many many documented instances of jacketed solids failing. Maybe not so much lately as theyve come along way but even 25 years ago it was a very common thing. Like i said i dont know Randy Garrett but i respect what hes done. Hes put ammo on the shelf that a guy who doesnt handload or cast can buy and take his 4570 and HUMANELY harvest any game animal in the world.

[HollandNut]

No I have never "seen" a buff taken with a cast boolit ..

I have seen the various articles in AR in the last couple years of a cast bullet used in Africa on Dangerous Game ... So no doubt they will drop a buff among others ..

Like any other critter , the first shot is critical .. I have seen a buff drop in his tracks from one well placed 375 , and I have seen one soak up 6 600NE solids and 4 458's , most of those were "kill" shots and he never slowed down until the last shot .. Countries have a minimum for Dangerous Game of either 9.3 or 375 , so no I havent seen one taken with anything smaller than a 375 ..

However that said , Elgin Gates took the 7th largest elephant on record with a .300 Weatherby , in 1961 I believe ..

Sadly the poor solids were a result of bullet makers not understanding the requirements for a Dangerous Game bullet ..

You're right , lead was being used before I was borned , usually an 8 bore or larger , throwing 2-4 or more ounces up real close and personal .. I caint see the hardest cast lead/lino or whatever majic combination being at best about a third the hardness of a steel jacketed solid ..

Most times buff are uneventful shoots , I used a 416 Taylor , 458 Win Mag and 458Lott and only had one bad experience with a charge ..

If I ever get to go again , highly unlikely , I want to take a couple hard casts , and shoot them into a buff after he's down to see for myself ..

No doubt they work , but the client hunter is being back by a PH with jacketed solids and /or softs if something doesnt go right ..

:drinks::drinks:

[MtGun44]

Bullshop -

Certainly not stupid. You live in wonderful country, I have visited for 30+ days
many years ago, nearly stayed, wonder if I made the wrong decision sometimes.

Now I understand 'Old B00' - good name. Mine is a SS Guide Gun, like it alot and
it is very accurate. I wish I had used the RCBS GC 405 instead of the Rem J405 but
at the time of the trip, I had only limited experience with that boolit and no
LBT hardness tester and was out of time to heat treat --- excuses, but there
it was. Rem worked fine, wish I had used hard cast. Maybe someday I'll
save up again and go back. Wish I could afford a buff hunt, but too much for
my budget.

Thanks for the good stories!

Bill

[HCL]

Bullshop
If you are going to make it at the end of the month, let me know, would like to linkup and get a coffee and visit.
Mike

[Just Duke]

That was a fine story Bullshop. Thanks:-D

[Bret4207]

Most opinions you get on the internet are from guys that have alot more experience with keyboards then triggers.

Man, you said a mouthfull there!

[Four Fingers of Death]

I didn't have enough time to read all of the above posts, but a lot of the small bores got their reputation from Selious. He didn't like the big recoilers after having both barrels go off at once on a 4bore, threw him off the ladder and into the long grass with a few injuries. He used to ghost up to an elephant in the long grass, the gunbearers used to hold a bamboo ladder up, he used to tip toe up it and whack them at about 5 paces. He might have been squeamish about recoil, but he had big balls just the same. Tip toe through the long grass, scooit up the ladder, whack a bull with a steel jacketed bullet with a high ballistic coefficient(there's the difference), slip down and move away as the big beastie slowly sinks to the ground. I think from memory, he used a 275 (7mm) Apex or H&H, but the 265s were used in the same manner. They were nearly all shot at 15 paces or less which was the practice with all elephant hunting at the time. Try and read Taylors book, he wrote it while recovering from wounds at the end of WW2. Jack O'Connor didn't have much time for him, as he was a bit of a drunk and a remittnace man, but wasnt short on sand. It was easy for Jack, working as a doctor well away from the fight.