Lightest 38 spl load for a rifle?

[wonderwolf]

Technically this doesn't belong here since I'm using my new 77/357 bolt action for this but I figure the SASS guys here and the plinkers would know how to better answer this question than if I were to post it on the production rifle group since this deals with a pistol caliber in a long rifle.

What is a reliable safe low power load for a .38 spl in a long gun? I have worked up (down?) some loads for revolvers but never for use in a long gun, I'm sure I'll get bullets stuck in the barrel but I'm wondering how low is too low for say 92, 148 & 158gr cast loads?

Powders right now are unique and Red Dot.....I'm seeing that bullseye may be a more versatile powder since this little gun I can see now will quickly become a top favorite of mine so I may add bullseye to my inventory.

Is it more important to pick a bullet with less bearing surface with the lighter light loads? or does it not seem to matter in a long gun? I'm curious how much full wad cutters would be slowed down compared to similar weight round nose.

[A pause for the COZ]

I dont have that rifle. So depending on twist rate. ( my M92 is 1-30)
I an getting just great results with 125gr rnfp ahead of 5 gr of Herco. Or 4 gr of Unique.
If you have a faster twist like 1-16 might get pretty good results with 158gr boolets.

[rockshooter]

just remember that heavier boolets are harder to get out when they get stuck mid-bbl!
Loren

[ReloaderFred]

My wife, grandson and I all shoot lever action Marlins in SASS matches. Lots of SASS matches......... Our standard load uses 125 gr. RNFP bullets, but sometimes we use 105 gr. TCFP bullets. I load them both with 3.4 gr. of Bullseye. I've shot both these bullets with as little as 2.9 gr. of Bullseye, but that's getting pretty low. Once in awhile I'll shoot a few 158 gr. cast bullets, and I use that same 3.4 gr. of Bullseye load with them, too. All three bullets are surprisingly accurate from our Marlins, and should be in your 77/357, too.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[smkummer]

While I have not tried it yet in a 38 special rifle, but in the 44 and 45 rifles, Unique loaded too low will get your cases sooty due to not expanding the case. We have great luck with faster 700X in the 44/45 rifles loaded low.

[koehlerrk]

My normal plinking load for my kids to use out of my Marlin 1894 is 6gr of BlueDot behind a 125gr cast boolit. Not noisy, accurate, and no recoil, leading, or soot.

Lowest power 38 load I've used in my Marlin - 1.5gr of Bullseye behind a 0.360 round ball coated in LLA. Very nearly silent, the hammer hitting the firing pin was louder than the report, and the ball smacking a piece of 2x4 sounded like someone hitting it with a hammer. Ping-WHACK!

In mine, I tried 1.0gr of Bullseye - it got stuck about 3/4 of the way down the barrel. At that point a good, heavy duty range rod is your best friend.

Remember, when doing these super light loads, start high and work down... and check the barrel every shot! What works in one rifle may not work in another.

[Outpost75]

I have a .360 No.5 English rook rifle with 25-inch barrel which has been rechambered to use .38 Special hollowbased wadcutters. These must upset to seal its .366" groove diameter, take the modified Metford rifling in 36-inch twist adequately to give good accuracy and still reliably exit the rifle barrel.

121135 This is the rifle.

Factory 148-grain HBWC match ammunition shoots to the iron sights at 50 yards and reliably produces 2-inch groups at 50 yards with the iron sights. I also have a 148-grain hollowbased .360" nose-pour mold for a bullet resembling the original service bullet for the .38 Long Colt which groups well with 2.8 to 3.2 grains of Bullseye, with 3 grains being most accurate in the rook rifle with either bullet. Quiet too!

I have shot lighter charges down to 2.4 grains of Bullseye which are the lightest which exit the bore reliably, but accuracy was not as good as with a heavier charge which upsets the bullet base reliably. My home-cast HBFN rook rifle bullets are cast 1:40 tin/lead. Bullets harder than factory soft swaged HBWC target bullets are are less satisfactory.

The following velocity firings used Remington factory 148-grain HBWC bullets in Remington cases with Remington 1-1/2 primers, flush-seated and taper crimped with charges of Alliant Bullseye as indicated, velocities are all taken in a 25-inch barrel:

1.7 grains Bullseye 604 fps, 71 Sd, 186 ES, TWO BULLETS STUCK IN BARREL WERE KNOCKED OUT!
2.0 grains Bullseye 647 fps, 45 Sd, 155 ES, ONE BULLET STUCK IN BARREL WAS KNOCKED OUT!
2.4 grains Bullseye 806 fps, 19 Sd, 45 ES, 20 rds. of 20 exited from barrel OK, MIN. RECOMMENDED!
2.8 grains Bullseye 854 fps, 15 Sd, 36 ES, two-inch group at 50 yards!
3.0 grains Bullseye 908 fps, 8 Sd, 21 ES, 1-1/2" group at 50 yards!
3.2 grains Bullseye 969 fps, 12 Sd, 29 ES, 2-1/2" group at 50 yds. Do Not Exceed w/soft-swaged HBWC

My experience has been that powders having larger particle sizes, such as Unique or Red Dot do not measure reliably in charges of less than 3 grains. Bullseye is ideal in this application.

[Leatherhead Bullets]

I am also pretty new to the pistol cartridge lever guns. (I see the addition happening right in front of me!) I have been using Tightgroup because it is what I have plenty of. I load our 125 grn Hi-Tek coated bullets with 3.8 grns. Not a "low" load for the powder but quiet ,accurate, and no recoil out of my 20" Puma 92. Having a hard time keeping the brass full for my girls.

[bangerjim]

I have used a .358 roundballs with 2-3gn of Titegroup. Nice light and quite load.

I also use a .358 NLG PD'd boolit with ~3.5gn Titegroup.

Used in a 38/357 carbine rifle with great success!

banger

[wonderwolf]

I totally agree with the range rod, we have a 1/4" round brass rod in several lengths we keep around and in range bags. I try not to abuse my cleaning rods but I've seen some guys ruin some $$$$ rods doing dumb stuff. I had thought about the round ball load last night before bed. I'm not sure if I or my dad has a mold for that size or not, I do have the 92gr 358242 mold which I've played with mostly in 9mm.....

lets see 1000 primers are $28 around here now, 2gr of bullseye would be $4 for 500 rounds...cases and bullets are "free".....thats $18 dollars for 500 rounds.....you can't touch .22 for that....dang

[Outpost75]

The correct, best tool for dislodging stuck bullets is Brownell's Squibb Rod Kit:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/stuck-case-removers/squib-rod-prod1251.aspx

You attach the squibb rod of appropriate caliber to your cleaning rod using the supplied, threaded adapter.

With jacketed bullets reduce adhesion of the jacket by putting a few drops of Kroil down the bore and letting it soak.

With lubricated lead bullets the addition of Kroil usually isn't necessary, but doing so doesn't hurt.

Insert the squibb rod down the muzzle until it contacts the bullet, withdraw the rod about 6-8" and "throw" the rod down, letting it tap the bullet of its own weight only. DO NOT use a hammer!!!!!!

Patience and many light taps will get the job done without damaging either your cleaning rod or the barrel.

I always carry the .30 cal. and 9mm/.357 rods in my range kit and end up using one or the other about once a week to aid the unfortunate. The rod alone works great on handguns also. If you don't buy the whole set, at least buy one for your most often used caliber. You won't regret it.

[bangerjim]

The correct, best tool for dislodging stuck bullets is Brownell's Squibb Rod Kit:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/stuck-case-removers/squib-rod-prod1251.aspx

You attach the squibb rod of appropriate caliber to your cleaning rod using the supplied, threaded adapter.

With jacketed bullets reduce adhesion of the jacket by putting a few drops of Kroil down the bore and letting it soak.

With lubricated lead bullets the addition of Kroil usually isn't necessary, but doing so doesn't hurt.

Insert the squibb rod down the muzzle until it contacts the bullet, withdraw the rod about 6-8" and "throw" the rod down, letting it tap the bullet of its own weight only. DO NOT use a hammer!!!!!!

Patience and many light taps will get the job done without damaging either your cleaning rod or the barrel.

I always carry the .30 cal. and 9mm/.357 rods in my range kit and end up using one or the other about once a week to aid the unfortunate. The rod alone works great on handguns also. If you don't buy the whole set, at least buy one for your most often used caliber. You won't regret it.


OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! $30 for a tiny piece of brass rod!?!?!?!?!?!?

Just get some brass rod at HD or Lowe's. I made a "pounder" out of a 2" piece of brass that is turned and threaded to screw on to my cleaning rods. If you do not have a lathe, just get a piece of brass rod you can run a die onto that matches the threads of your cleaning rod.

Save that $30 for primers and powder!

I guess I need to go into business making these from scrap brass rod!


banger

[seaboltm]

148 grains: 2.8 grains of BE is minimum, 3 is better. For 158 grains I like 4 grains of BE. My Lee powder metering tool does not like BE, and if I go below 3 sometimes I get a light load. I have stuck many in barrels.

[seaboltm]

I have a 1/4 inch brass rod to drive out squibs. I use a hammer. They come out fine. For 38 special squibs I like to use a 32 acp brass dropped head first into the barrel. Put the brass rod into the open mouth of the 32 acp brass. You may have to sand the rim of the 32 acp brass some as nominal size is .358, but this takes a few seconds with a file or some 80 grit. Pound away. For 44 and 45 Colt, I use a piece of 9mm or 38 special brass. Works fine. Look around the shooting range for some 32 acp brass.

[wonderwolf]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! $30 for a tiny piece of brass rod!?!?!?!?!?!?

Just get some brass rod at HD or Lowe's. I made a "pounder" out of a 2" piece of brass that is turned and threaded to screw on to my cleaning rods. If you do not have a lathe, just get a piece of brass rod you can run a die onto that matches the threads of your cleaning rod.

Save that $30 for primers and powder!

I guess I need to go into business making these from scrap brass rod!


banger

Yeah $30 for that is kind of nuts....I don't really think they need to be caliber specific, and the dewey rod attachment isn't necessary I think...that and those deweys are not cheap. I have a lathe and have made custom jags and such out of brass round stock. I could see turning a length just for this rifle and stowing it in the but stock or in the shooters kit I'll make up for this sweet rifle.

[Ken in Iowa]

For SASS rifle, I often use 2.85 Bullseye with a 140 gr TCFP boolit. It works well. I have also used the same charge with a 148 WC in revolvers.

As has already been mentioned, Unique may be a bit dirty for this application. BE or Red Dot would be better.

Wonderwolf- are you just looking for a light plinking load or did you have something else in mind?

[wonderwolf]

For SASS rifle, I often use 2.85 Bullseye with a 140 gr TCFP boolit. It works well. I have also used the same charge with a 148 WC in revolvers.

As has already been mentioned, Unique may be a bit dirty for this application. BE or Red Dot would be better.

Wonderwolf- are you just looking for a light plinking load or did you have something else in mind?


Light plinking load for now, just looking to offset my rimfire consumption and have an excuse to load all my .38 brass in something other than my staple +P load with the 158gr Lee SWC. We all know revolvers are versatile in that you can load them way down to way up and with this bolt action rifle I feel it can be applied to as well. I use red dot now for my +p load but I may try a lb of bullseye and see how I like it.


I took the 77/357 out to the range for the first time today. Didn't take the chrono but I imagine my +p loads that usually go 1000fps out of a 4" were going 1200 or so out of the little carbine, Sights suck but I knew that going into it...I'm looking at drop tables and pondering making my own ladder sight for the gun if I can't find something else like a williams FP sight.

I have to go back out to the range tomorrow to teach a class and shoot a bowling pin match, so I'll spend some time tonight loading up some .357 mag's and .38's with wadcutters etc and see how it shakes out.

[Ken in Iowa]

OK I kinda thought so. You are not the only one shooting light 38's instead of rimfire these days....

My best advice is don't go too low. 38 Specials are cheap and easy in the recoil department already.

Good luck and have fun.

[Artful]

Technically this doesn't belong here since I'm using my new 77/357 bolt action for this but I figure the SASS guys here and the plinkers would know how to better answer this question than if I were to post it on the production rifle group since this deals with a pistol caliber in a long rifle.

What is a reliable safe low power load for a .38 spl in a long gun? I have worked up (down?) some loads for revolvers but never for use in a long gun, I'm sure I'll get bullets stuck in the barrel but I'm wondering how low is too low for say 92, 148 & 158gr cast loads?

Powders right now are unique and Red Dot.....I'm seeing that bullseye may be a more versatile powder since this little gun I can see now will quickly become a top favorite of mine so I may add bullseye to my inventory.

Is it more important to pick a bullet with less bearing surface with the lighter light loads? or does it not seem to matter in a long gun? I'm curious how much full wad cutters would be slowed down compared to similar weight round nose.

Ok, my experience isn't with your rifle - but for loading low velocity (subsonic) loads there are some things you need to consider -

1) what is your twist and how long is your bullet - that will tell you what FPS you can go down too and still have a stable projectile.

2) If you trying to use boolits on hand you of course can pick between the 92, 148 and 158 grain cast boolits.
The shortest (probably lightest) will most easily stabilize at the lowest velocity.

3) Accuracy usually requires speeds above 600 fps in my experience, and slower FPS make more rainbow trajectory so you need good range estimation skills. And adjustable sights help.

Personally I try to keep the same subsonic speed of 22LR target ammo 1050 fps with a bullet that has similar Ballistic Coefficient - just makes life easier.

I would also say that a BDC that is designed for 22LR works just as well in this application.

I start at a factory load level and work backwards with the help of a chronograph.

Red Dot would be my powder of choice in your application.

Search for "Subsonic" and "Cat's Sneeze" on the internet.