super durable gloss black

[twc1964]

Ok guys, i would like to pc my lee 358-158rf boolits gloss black but i saw a thread about the carbon in it wearing bbl's abnormally fast. Hmm.... what do folks who use it think? If im gonna be shooting a smoothbore blackhawk in a few yrs no thanks. Any definitive answers?

[nagantguy]

I never bought that barrel wearing idea at all. Think about it the coating cannot be harder than jwords. If its applied and baked on properly it should leave nothing behind and increase barrel life. Just my two cents not a chemist nor a rocket scientist, actually I'm kinda dumb and when I did my taxes I even questioned if I was gainfully employed! But having shot pc'd boolits in pistols and now front stuffers there is nothing I've seen that would lean towards premature wear, quite the opposite. They look, feel slicker and leave a very clean bore even in a smoke pole.

[twc1964]

I just want color coded boolits by caliber. Red for my 45's, black for the 38's, and blue for the 9's. Simple colors and ease of i.d when im grabbing a batch.

[bangerjim]

The only "rumors" that I have ever seen about wear was very early on from some doubting thomas about the HF matte black. I shoot all colors INCLUDING matte black with no signs of wear. So do many thousands of others on here, per the many MANY posts!

Fear not about wearing your barrel out. FMJ's are tougher on it than the plastic coating.

If there was any detrimental effects by now, it would be showing up in the many RECENT threads, not something posted from a year or more ago.

banger

[Freightman]

Been shooting PC. boolits for over a year 1000's of them no ill effects that i can tell. The one thing i do notice is I do not have to clean out my dies of lube build up hip hip hooray!. :bigsmyl2:

[1911KY]

I have a real hard time understanding how it can be construed that powder coat could be more damaging to steel than copper. I can see that people think the PC could act as an abrasive between the lead and steel but it would also be a much softer layer going down the barrel than a copper jacket. I would imagine if you are casting extremely hard bullets and PCing them, then you may get an abrasive effect.

The retrieved PC'd bullets that I have still feel smooth and show a good indention from the rifling, but I am casting a fairly soft lead.
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p628/jamesearnett/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140914_223025_zpshws8u1zj.jpg

[twc1964]

Ok, ok guys lol. I get it now and i will use the black and move on. I like to ask becuse in these times i sure couldnt afford a messed up pistola. No more worries here....smoke, here i come...soon.

[ioon44]

First I would like to thank every one who has spent time and effort to post there experiences on
the forum.
I have been trying the PC on my boolits and ran into a problem in my barrels. In less than 500 rds.
I started seeing fine scratching like 600 grit through the full length of the barrels, this showed
up in 9mm, .40 s&w & .45 ACP. all 8 of these barrels were bright and smooth before using PC.
These barrels are Wilson, Colt NM, Glock & S&W. One glock barrel was new to start with.
I used the ASBBDT method with Eastwood's Gloss Black and used Eastwood's instructions on the
container and used 3 oven thermometer's to control temp( tried HF Red and didn't like the
coverage). The Eastwood powder gave almost 100% coverage, passed wipe & smash test. The boolit
sized with little effort and the seizer dies looked fine. Shooting the boolit showed no smoke and
no leading but left black looking soot in the first inch of the barrels which came out with a dry
patch, the loads were all IDPA minor & major loads.
I am a long time shooter and boolit caster, and am posting this to urge people to take a close
look at there barrels to be sure they are not having any abrasion. Some may need to use a
magnifier to see this.
I am going to continue use the PC in an older Glock .40 barrel to see what will happen in a
thousand rounds or more.
I live in SW Missouri and can show this to any one who would like to contact me with a PM.

[Garyshome]

PC the inside of your barrel......:bigsmyl2:

[1911KY]

First I would like to thank every one who has spent time and effort to post there experiences on
the forum.
I have been trying the PC on my boolits and ran into a problem in my barrels. In less than 500 rds.
I started seeing fine scratching like 600 grit through the full length of the barrels, this showed
up in 9mm, .40 s&w & .45 ACP. all 8 of these barrels were bright and smooth before using PC.
These barrels are Wilson, Colt NM, Glock & S&W. One glock barrel was new to start with.
I used the ASBBDT method with Eastwood's Gloss Black and used Eastwood's instructions on the
container and used 3 oven thermometer's to control temp( tried HF Red and didn't like the
coverage). The Eastwood powder gave almost 100% coverage, passed wipe & smash test. The boolit
sized with little effort and the seizer dies looked fine. Shooting the boolit showed no smoke and
no leading but left black looking soot in the first inch of the barrels which came out with a dry
patch, the loads were all IDPA minor & major loads.
I am a long time shooter and boolit caster, and am posting this to urge people to take a close
look at there barrels to be sure they are not having any abrasion. Some may need to use a
magnifier to see this.
I am going to continue use the PC in an older Glock .40 barrel to see what will happen in a
thousand rounds or more.
I live in SW Missouri and can show this to any one who would like to contact me with a PM.

What type of alloy are you casting? There is an agent in the black that was thought to be abrasive, it was posted on here somewhere, phosphate something. Maybe that is what is causing your scratches. I stopped using black because I don't want to risk it. I know Bangerjim sprays a lot of matte black, maybe he can attest to this as well.

I have only shot roughly 500 PC'd bullets so far but I will take a close look at my barrels tonight.

[ioon44]

What type of alloy are you casting? There is an agent in the black that was thought to be abrasive, it was posted on here somewhere, phosphate something. Maybe that is what is causing your scratches. I stopped using black because I don't want to risk it. I know Bangerjim sprays a lot of matte black, maybe he can attest to this as well.

I have only shot roughly 500 PC'd bullets so far but I will take a close look at my barrels tonight.


My alloy is 6-2-92, I did not see any phosphate listed in the MSDS sheet.

[Floydster]

Ioon44, very interesting indeed, I have shot many thousands of rounds thru my handguns using powder by the pound, but never any black.My barrels seem to be more shiny then ever upon close inspection, however I will keep a close eye out for any wear/ scratch's.
Thanks for your input.
Smokeyloads

[bangerjim]

Well, you got something weird going on there, bro.

I pulled 4 of my standard guns, a 38/357 carbine, a 45LC carbine, a 9mm, and 40 S&W I shoot all the time and the barrels are clean and shiny just like new with no visable scratches as you describe.

I have shot many many rounds of matte black, gloss red, white, yellow and blue thru them and no sign of scratching as you describe. I used a bright bore light and inpected very closely with a magnifying lens just now with not negative results visable.

All the above cal's I shoot 9-12 Bhn and PC.

I, too, will be vigelant for any signs of unusual wear. I feel I would see more barrel degradation and scratcing with FMJ's!!! Two of those barrels have only had no more a hundred rounds of FMJ down them.

This is a relative new technology and..........who knows!

BTW.....calcite is the questionable matting agent in the black that some one accused of being abrasive.

banger

[Lucky Joe]

I'm not too concerned about this, just posted it for those interested.

From Wikipedia

Abrasive minerals[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abrasive&action=edit&section=2)]

Abrasives may be classified as either natural or synthetic. When discussing sharpening stones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpening_stone), natural stones have long been considered superior but advances in material technology are seeing this distinction become less distinct. Many synthetic abrasives are effectively identical to a natural mineral, differing only in that the synthetic mineral has been manufactured rather than been mined. Impurities in the natural mineral may make it less effective.
Some naturally occurring abrasives are:


Calcite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcite) (calcium carbonate)
Emery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emery_(mineral)) (impure corundum)
Diamond dust (synthetic diamonds are used extensively)
Novaculite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novaculite)
Pumice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumice)
Rouge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(III)_oxide)
Sand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand)
Corundum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corundum)
Garnet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garnet)
Sandstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandstone)
Tripoli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripoli)
Powdered Feldspar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldspar)
Staurolite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staurolite)

[Handloader109]

Did a bit of searching msds ....gloss blacks don't seem to have any abrasivres...but the hammered finishes can have a crystalline silicate in them. That would for sure scratch your steel. I've some grey that I'm not going to use going forward. Not a gloss and may be what I would call contaminated for our purposes

[Gunslingerdoc]

After years of shooting and several Master classifications, I think the biggest risk to barrels is cleaning and media/tumbling dust. I've used 'abrasive' cleaners for years. You'd be hard pressed to find a benchrest shooter that doesn't use them regularly. We have to accept the simple fact that barrels wear out. They contain a violent reaction every time we shoot them. I can get 4-7000 rounds out of a match rifle barrel and 15-30k out of a pistol barrel....pick your über secret magic steel/manufacturer/fairy dust impregnated, they all wear out. I've seen the same kind of wear described above shooting jacketed reloads exclusively, years ago in sigs, glocks and 1911's.

the question and the test that's probably never going to get done is comparing identical guns and barrels side by side with one group using jacketed bullets and the group using PC'd and seeing if there was ACCELERATED wear in one group...then that will be only useful for that formulation of PC.

certainly one should avoid know abrasives in your PC, but don't forget there may be other things likely causing the wear...your cleaning technique/solution, your powder, or media residue/dust from tumbling your cases.

[ioon44]

One of the ingredients in the Eastwood's Gloss Black is Barium sulfate 7727-43-7 10-30%
From Wikipedia
Barium sulfate (or sulphate) is the inorganic compound with the chemical formula BaSO4. It is a white crystalline solid that is odorless and insoluble in water. It occurs as the mineral barite, which is the main commercial source of barium and materials prepared from it. The white opaque appearance and its high density are exploited in its main applications

Can a crystalline solid be abrasive in this case?
Could one lot of the powder have had more than 30% Barium sulfate as I used 3 different lots?

My cleaning technique has remained constant for years and this problem affected other shooters guns also.

Just would like to pin down what went wrong. I guess I should have chosen a different color of PC.

I wish every one here a happy and prosperous New Year

[bangerjim]

"Crystalline solids" have been used forever.....as sandpaper! Yes they are abrasive. Just in widely varying degrees. In this case it is used as the "density maker" of the powder.

Crystalline solids can vary from soft garnet/agate to hard silicon carbide and diamonds!

In small amounts it should not harm your barrels. I have not seen any scratches or wear using HF matte black. And I did look.....closely.....with a 20x microscope. Only clean like-new barrels.

Gun barrels do vary in hardness and different brands/models may be susceptible to "stuff". FMJ's, I would feel, would be the worst. And anything left in there by previous use/cleaning only amplifies the situation.

There are many thousands of us shooting PC thru many MANY guns with 10's of thousands of rounds fired and very little (if any) negative feedback. So far. Only lots of time will tell us the rest of the story.

Guess you are one of the "lucky ones"??????? :groner:

banger

[Smoke4320]

Its kind of like cancer... did you get the unlucky mutated gene or the cheap steel barrel

had a used takeoff barrel for sale here for $100.00.
Someone wrote me why I wanted $100.00 for a used one with 2000 rds thru it when he could get a new one for $105.00.. Sold the barrel before I even typed the answer ..
Spend $105.00 for a new barrel and you have $105.00 in quality .. Spend $350.00 for a Name Brand quality produced barrel and you have a much better barrel
unfortunately right now you can't pick your genes

[ioon44]

Its kind of like cancer... did you get the unlucky mutated gene or the cheap steel barrel

had a used takeoff barrel for sale here for $100.00.
Someone wrote me why I wanted $100.00 for a used one with 2000 rds thru it when he could get a new one for $105.00.. Sold the barrel before I even typed the answer ..
Spend $105.00 for a new barrel and you have $105.00 in quality .. Spend $350.00 for a Name Brand quality produced barrel and you have a much better barrel
unfortunately right now you can't pick your genes



The barrels I used are 3ea Wilson, 1ea Colt NM, 2ea Glock & 2ea S&W. One Glock barrel was new to start with. If these are cheap barrels then what is a $350.00 barrel?

So do I need a $350.00 barrel to shoot PC coated boolits?

[rsrocket1]

The barrels I used are 3ea Wilson, 1ea Colt NM, 2ea Glock & 2ea S&W. One Glock barrel was new to start with. If these are cheap barrels then what is a $350.00 barrel?

So do I need a $350.00 barrel to shoot PC coated boolits?

If you buy into the theory that PC coated boolits wear out barrels, then yes.

Then again, if you actually do all of this, I don't want you as my financial adviser.:smile:

[Smoke4320]

The barrels I used are 3ea Wilson, 1ea Colt NM, 2ea Glock & 2ea S&W. One Glock barrel was new to start with. If these are cheap barrels then what is a $350.00 barrel?

So do I need a $350.00 barrel to shoot PC coated boolits?

Just just reread my first post and now see where it my meaning was not clear .. That's on me..I was relating only a story of an interaction about barrel pricing .. had not idea of your barrels quality..because I read your post quickly and missed the stated barrel brands
My only point was you get the quality you pay for .. Cheap softer steel barrels by definition will wear out faster no matter what you shoot thru them ..
PC ( as long as there are no added abrasives) is softer than Copper so shooting PC should make your barrels last longer

Now If you are seeing scratching and wear (using the barrels you quoted ) I would say that your powder contains an abrasive

I am up to several thousand rds of Gloss Black PC Powder (NOT Eastwood Brand) on a Noveski 300 Blkout Barrel and no sign of any wear or accuracy loss

[prs]

I just looked down the barrel of my SDs 45ACP with 25X video microscope (otoscope) and saw no scratches. I see a bit of blue powder coat on the ledge where the chamber ends and on the barrel crown. I see a bit of leading or antimonial wash at the leade and forward for about an inch and a half. No scratches. The last boolits shot were 50 blue powder coated very soft lead (98pb+2sn) 200gr #68 hollow points. I do not know if the lead was from them or an earlier outing with uncoated boolits. Could not see any lead or other debrid in the barrel without the microscope.

prs

[bangerjim]

I just looked down the barrel of my SDs 45ACP with 25X video microscope (otoscope) and saw no scratches. I see a bit of blue powder coat on the ledge where the chamber ends and on the barrel crown. I see a bit of leading or antimonial wash at the leade and forward for about an inch and a half. No scratches. The last boolits shot were 50 blue powder coated very soft lead (98pb+2sn) 200gr #68 hollow points. I do not know if the lead was from them or an earlier outing with uncoated boolits. Could not see any lead or other debrid in the barrel without the microscope.

prs


That is VERY soft lead for a pistol! But the PC' protected you. Sn adds hardly ANY hardness to Pb. You need Sb in there to get is up to around 12. I shoot 10-12 all the time with PC and no problems of any kind.

No leading. No grease smoke. No sticky boolits. No scratches. No wear. PC is your friend!

banger

[prs]

Banger, I am with you for shooting at the range, but those lead/tin soft hollow points are for bad guys. I don't care if they do lead the barrel after many shot, I won't need or have many shots with an XDs. My typical alloy is real close to half of Lyman 2, ie 96:2:2 or 94:3:3 as close as I can concoct. You are correct, the tough powder paint does let us shoot softer and it does protect the lead and fight gas jetting.

prs

[twc1964]

Wow! This thread is like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going....... , so i guess i opened up the proverbial can o worms lol. Im done with worrying about it though. My bbls are still slick and mirror smooth and ive found loads that drive tacks for all of my pistols. I like pc so im gonna keep using it reguardless. As u were, men.