RCBS C-180-fn in the 30-30

[newton]

I know this topic has been talked about, and the point I am going to ask about has been mentioned, but I guess its never been really explained or talked in detail so I that's what I am looking for.

I loaded some rounds with the afore mentioned boolit and noticed something right off the bat. When I seat the boolit, it would go down real nice then at the end of the stroke it would 'break free' for lack of better word. Eventually it hit me that it was the gas check dropping below the case neck.

This would not be an issue, except for normally what I have seen written about this boolit is that you only run through the sizer to seat the gas check. So, that means that the gas check is lets say .310" or .311" but the boolit stays a thou smaller. Multiple sources say that the boolit is not touched when putting on gas checks, which mean that the gas check is a tad bit larger diameter than the boolit. Therefore, when the gas check is pushed through the neck of the case, then it opens it up and the boolit is not held very well - if at all.

So in my mind, the boolit is kind of just 'hanging' in there. Its held from going deeper by the crimp, and from coming out by the gas check. Make sense?

I know that this boolit works with the 30-30, there is too much information saying so. So am I just being paranoid? I think that I need to size the boolit and seat the gas check the same size for this to really work I guess. I guess I will have to beagle my mold, or add some tape to make the boolit a tad bit bigger. One other thing I thought of was paper patching the boolit.

Anyone ever paper patched the RCBS C-180-fn for the 30-30?

I have some loaded up as is for now. I am going to test tonight. I just hope that the somewhat loose boolits do not cause problems. I am not expecting any accuracy sad to say. I really have major doubts about it all to tell you the truth. But I really would like to hunt with these next week.

[Piedmont]

You are worrying too much. The only problem I would see with a loose fit is deeper seating in the mag tube, but since you crimped in the groove that won't be a problem. And if your bullets aren't real hard you don't want a tight neck situation with hunting loads (unless for better powder burning) because the tight neck may distort your softer hunting alloy. Of course I am assuming these aren't real hard so they will expand in flesh.

What are the particulars of your load?

[Hurricane]

I use Hornady crimp-on Gas Checks that crimps on the base of the lead bullet. Put on the GC by hand (you will feel it click onto the base of the bullet). Then put it in the sizer and size the bullet and the GC together. The GC will crimp into the bullet for a very firm fit. The top of the GC is a little thicker then the rest of the GC and running it through the sizer is like driving a nail into the bullet. If the GC is loose after it has been sized the GC part of the bullet is too small. I shoot a lot of RCBS 30-180-FN in 30-30 and in 308 Win. with no problems. I crimp the bullet in the case in the factory crimp groove for both 30-30 and 308 Win. As a result the GC on the 308 Win. will be below the neck of the case but have never had any trouble with it. The 30,000 psi or so will keep the bullet and GC together. If I need to disassemble a cartridge by pulling the bullet with a wrench the GC will pull off and stay in the case. It does not happen often and I just discard that case. If you can seat the bullet without going below the neck of the case and still have a cartridge that will work through the action you would have nothing to worry about. Max length for a cartridge is 2.550" with the Marlin 336, check the max if you are using a different gun. I do not make ammo larger that 2.50" to have a safety against a jam.

[newton]

You are worrying too much. The only problem I would see with a loose fit is deeper seating in the mag tube, but since you crimped in the groove that won't be a problem. And if your bullets aren't real hard you don't want a tight neck situation with hunting loads (unless for better powder burning) because the tight neck may distort your softer hunting alloy. Of course I am assuming these aren't real hard so they will expand in flesh.

What are the particulars of your load?

I figured I was. There were way to many people who have really liked this boolit in the 30-30 to say that it wont work in mine. I did test some rounds by slamming them down nose first on the bench to see if the boolit would move into the case. They wont.

The boolits are a mix of pure and ww with a tad bit of linotype thrown in. Not scientific, and the mix is about 50/50. But it has worked well for me in the past. They are soft, but I do water drop them to make them a touch harder. I have tried them both ways and the water dropped shot a lot better than air cooled. I have done a sledge hammer test on them to see if they were too brittle, and they pass with flying colors.

The loads I am going to try are with IMR 4320. I am going to try 28, 28.5, and 29(if the 28.5 does not show high pressures at all, and if I am not getting where I want to be). I have read a few places where guys are using 30 grains of the same powder, and 30 grains is a starting load of this powder with a 170 grain jacketed bullet in the 30-30 case. So I am sure, or pretty close to sure, that I am well within the pressure limits. However, I am not trying to get close to the threshold at all and realize when I start playing with these loads anything can happen. So I am doing so very carefully. I have a newer model gun so I am sure I will see pressure signs on the case before I the gun goes boom. But I am hoping to stay far enough away from all of that regardless.

[newton]

I use Hornady crimp-on Gas Checks that crimps on the base of the lead bullet. Put on the GC by hand (you will feel it click onto the base of the bullet). Then put it in the sizer and size the bullet and the GC together. The GC will crimp into the bullet for a very firm fit. The top of the GC is a little thicker then the rest of the GC and running it through the sizer is like driving a nail into the bullet. If the GC is loose after it has been sized the GC part of the bullet is too small. I shoot a lot of RCBS 30-180-FN in 30-30 and in 308 Win. with no problems. I crimp the bullet in the case in the factory crimp groove for both 30-30 and 308 Win. As a result the GC on the 308 Win. will be below the neck of the case but have never had any trouble with it. The 30,000 psi or so will the bullet and GC together. If I need to disassemble a cartridge by pulling the bullet with a wrench the GC will pull off and stay in the case. It does not happen often and I just discard that case. If you can seat the bullet without going below the neck of the case and still have a cartridge that will work through the action you would have nothing to worry about. Max length for a cartridge is 2.550" with the Marlin 336, check the max if you are using a different gun. I do not make ammo larger that 2.50" to have a safety against a jam.

Thanks. The gas checks are crimping on just fine. No problems there. I was testing fit and managed to pull a check off in the case neck a few times, but I had to pull really hard for them to come off. What do you mean by "The 30,000 psi or so will the bullet and GC together."? I assume you mean push/hold?

Yes, 2.550" is max for my gun I am almost positive. I remember trying to load them longer in the past and it causing some jams. I wish, really wish I could seat the GC in the neck. It would make me feel so much better about the round. But like I have said, many people have spoken highly of this boolit and round, so it must be fine sitting below the neck.

I'm shooting a M94 AE by the way.

[newton]

Well, I'm not sure where to post this. I want to get as much feedback as I can and it involves powder load, but also my gun. I figure I'll post here since I'm more concerned about pressure signs in the 30-30.

So I tested my loads this evening. Not even close to what I expected. I had loaded 9 rounds last night. Starting at 28 grains I loaded 3, then 3 with 28.5 grains, and 3 with 29 grains. IMR 4320 is the powder. I had guessed, kind of, at these loads last night, but found support (actual manual data, not just posts) for them today. Lyman #45 states a 193 grain jacketed bullet with 29 max charge is going over 1900 fps.

I started red with the low end ones, very very mild shots that hit significantly lower(like 6") than my standard lee 170 grain(183 grain actual) boolits do. The primers were actually backing out, which in my experience, has said that the pressures were way way low. They were averaging 1675 fps with significant differences in speed. Then the 28.5 rounds, averaged 1710, AD was a lot tighter. 29 rounds averaged 1760 fps and the AD opened back up.

Thats all I had loaded, so I went and loaded some single rounds. 29.5 and 30. Above max, but I was seeing NO pressure signs. Recoil was even very mild on the previous ones. 29.5 came in at 1792, 30 came in at 1833. Again, no pressure signs, but recoil and report was getting more like I'm used to(with 170 grain booits and jacketed rounds).

Being somewhat convinced that I had something odd here, and based on the fact that I know others have gone to 30 grains without issue, I went higher. 30.5, 30.7, and 31. At 31 I couldn't hear the powder shake anymore in the case. So that's about 100% fill. 30.5 came in at 1875 and 30.7 right above it at 1878. At 31 it got too dark for the chrony to see. So that's where I left it. But, at 31 is the first time it "felt" normal and showed any sign of pressure with just the smallest bit of extraction hang up. But it was hard to tell. I only noticed because I was watching for it. Under normal circumstances I would have never noticed.

So so I am sure I am getting to 1900+ fps with that load. But why the difference in data? I know it's not 1970, and I'm not using a jacketed bullet, but I would expect to be somewhat close.

I am pretty sure that my scale is correct, I have a 100 grain commercial bullet to check with. But I'm not ruling out lower charge weights than what the scale is saying(lee beam scale). Could it be the smaller .309" booolit I'm using? Not causing enough friction for pressure and in turn lowering velocity? Could be my chrony, so I will check it with some factory loads, but that still doesn't make up for the almost non exsistant pressure signs.

Im confused. The 31 grain loads were reaching close to my POA. They were also lining up better vertically with my sights, the lower charges were shooting left.

What at to do? Main question is what is a sign of true over pressure in the 30-30 round in a levergun? Anyone have pictures? I'll try to post picture of my spent cases.

[newton]

Pictures

All cases, from lightest load to heavy on right
121096

Close up of "over max" 5 loads
121097

Necks of of the loads. Blow by got less and less.
121098

Im gonna go get my mic now and take measurements of case head expansion.

[newton]

28 grain load - .4198"
28.5 load - .4196"
29 load - .4197"
29.5 load - .4197"
30 load - 4207" - Winchester brass
30.5 load - .4193"
30.7 load - .4197"
31 load - .4204" - Winchester brass

go figure that most of my brass is FC, and those two are Win. But regardless, the head is not expanding any really? I did not full length size these, they were fired and only neck sized.

What gives here? Anyone seen this before?

[newton]

Well, so much for the one that seemed a little hard to extract. It was the last one which was the Winchester case. The 30 grain load Winchester case does the same thing. The only ones that about fall back out of the chamber are the two low end loads. Which, according to the jacketed data, are not low end at all.

Personally i am starting to think I am not nearing the max yet. There are just no signs of it. What do you do in a case like this? Hodgdon, newest data, says 32.5 is max load on a jacketed 170 grain bullet. That gives 2068 fps and 36,300 psi. Would 20 more grains of boolit weight and a cast boolit(which would be less friction) come close to this kind of data? It seems so since their starting data shows 30 grains at 1976 fps and around 30,000 psi.

I think my boolits are small, and are not causing enough friction to raise pressures. But this is my first anomaly like this.

[CBH]

What kind of groups are you getting?

[newton]

Looking at the other cases I had shot, one of the 28.5 load cases was a Winchester brass also. Measured .4200". So there is some case expansion, but not sure if the fact that these were already fired, just neck sized, makes much of a difference.

But it seems to me that if the pressures were high, then the 30.7 load in the FC brass could expand to the .4200"+ mark. But it didn't. Am I missing something here?

[newton]

What kind of groups are you getting?

i was getting 1 1/2" groups on the first three loads. The 4 other loads were single shots just looking for velocity and pressure signs. They steadily creeped up to POA though, and those 4 shots made a 2" group.

[newton]

121102

Not sure if you can tell very well, but each group was labeled with marks except for the last 4 shots.

I have to admit though. I was not going for groups too much. Seeing how I would close my eyes right before I squeezed the trigger hard enough. I figured if gass was to come out, even though I was wearing eye protection, my eyes closed would help. Lol. Call me a bit paranoid...

[newton]

I wonder if this isn't the cooler weather. It's only about 50 here, but I have heard that 4320 is pretty temp sensitive. Maybe published loads are base on hotter ambient temps?

[newton]

Looks like I'll be backing off this expirent till I get different powder or new cases. Hodgdon lists a good way to estimate pressure but you need new cases. So much for my measuring of my cases from tonight.

Im still reading, but it seems that the 30-30 is the least favorite for reading primers and such. Seeing how I have a newish gun, I believe it to be stronger than the older ones. But I'm not going to chance it right now.

I would still love some insight from others here. I am not trying to hot rod the gun at all. It should be more than capable of pushing that boolit to 1900 fps, even using the powder I am. If it can be done with faster burning powders, it should be able with this one. I get that powders act differently, but we are not talking max velocity.

Id say my chrony is way off, but the hits on the paper seem to be in line with what the velocity is telling me.

Man i am so confused and at a point I've never been before. I really want to use this boolit, bad, but it looks like I'm done for a few weeks. Dang it!

[starmac]

IIRC Larry Gibson posted some great info with bonafied pressures and velocities with that boolit and a couple of powders. Leverrevolution was one for sure and I think the other was 760, but could be wrong about that. I do remember that lever won out on pressures and velocity, but both had excellant results.
I have never done it, but read several times where guys load until the primers stop backing out and call it good.

IIRC Larrys testing was done with a 94 AE too.

[newton]

I did read that thread. It was good info. It must just be my powder choice. I cannot see how, per say, but I think it's what might be the problem. I would blame the chrony, but where the rounds were hitting pretty much lines up with that velocity. I'll try again on a day when I have more time to test the chrony and know it's for sure working.

I can't think of anything else I can do for now. I thought about running H4350 in the cases since there is a lot of test done with those slower powders. It's what I use for my lee boolit with great success. I'd be curious how it responded there. It just interests me that the 4320 is acting like this, but could still be other parts of my load. Guess I shouldn't try to narrow it down like that without some good proof.

Anyone ever seen this with smallish boolits?

[newton]

Here is the thing. I'm not doing this all blind. There is that limited amount of data in the manual, but also a lot of other info about it on the Internet. Yea, can't trust all you read, but I would like to think that they were somewhat close in their info. My tests just seem far away from theirs. Or are they closer than what I think?

[newton]

One thing I just thought about is the fact that my scale might be the culprit. I am trying to think it all through in my head and I had a thought that I think I remember weighing a full Lee scoop of 4320 on my scale, which should have been 30.6 grains, and it came in at over 31 grains. I'll have to double check that though. So I'm thinking that it might just be that I am not getting true measurements on my powder. I am going to be looking for another scale soon. Guess it cannot hurt to have two in order to double check things.

On the other hand, I think I will abandon my goal with 4320. Its just not worth the risk. I think in using this heavy boolit I am going to have to go with a slower powder. I just wish the supply would come back so I could pick some up.

[newton]

Ok, I was talking with a guy here at work describing the situation, and there is something off. It has to be one, or more of the following. Bad chrony readings, Bad boolit fit(not obliterating and causing lower pressure/lower velocity?), Bad charge weight(not reading it right). It has to be one of those. I just cannot see it being just a bad powder usage for this boolit.

Castpics says that Win748 max charge of 30 grains should give 1963 fps.
Junior tested Varget at 28.4 grains with almost the same fps.
4320 sits right in the middle, and I am having to load 31 grains to even get close.

Something is not right. Right? Hope people can come by and chime in on this. The above is not the only data I have found. Most others who have tried powder around these rates have come up with the same thing.

I am going to do my best to find some H414 or Win760, but will try my 4350 also. An interesting thought on this is that Larry mentioned in his thread that the powder, with the heavier boolits, did not start burning efficiently until reaching 100% load density. I did notice on all the loads up to the 30.5 that there were kernels left in the bore. The 31 grain load did not have any.

[Dan Cash]

Paper patch your bullet; size to .303-.304 and patch with two wraps of tracing paper. Forget the gascheck.

Try Reloader 15, IMR 3031, Accurate 2520 or 2230. 4320 is too slow I think. Your case necks show low pressure signs the way they are sooted up. In .30-30 leveer guns, when primers start getting flat on the edges, things are getting pretty hot.

[newton]

IIRC Larry Gibson posted some great info with bonafied pressures and velocities with that boolit and a couple of powders. Leverrevolution was one for sure and I think the other was 760, but could be wrong about that. I do remember that lever won out on pressures and velocity, but both had excellant results.
I have never done it, but read several times where guys load until the primers stop backing out and call it good.

IIRC Larrys testing was done with a 94 AE too.

One thing I got to thinking about is this. The primers on the 28 and 28.5 grain loads were backing out. If you were comparing min(26 grain) and max(29 grain) charges with my loads you would see that I was up(potentially) at the top of the data. The primers should not be backing out at 28 and 28.5 grain loads. I would hasten to say that they should not even back out at 26 grain loads.

So I am back to either I am not putting the amount of powder I think I am putting in there, or the boolit is letting a whole lot of pressure by. I'll look to see if I was getting any leading tonight, but I'm not sure if I will see any with the few amount of rounds put down it.

At this point, I think I can rule out the chronograph as being the culprit, which I had almost already because of where the boolits were hitting on paper.

I should also say that I have a Ranger. Its a 20" barrel, so I know that I will probably be getting 100 fps slower than most of the load data out there based on 24" barrels.

[newton]

Paper patch your bullet; size to .303-.304 and patch with two wraps of tracing paper. Forget the gascheck.

Try Reloader 15, IMR 3031, Accurate 2520 or 2230. 4320 is too slow I think. Your case necks show low pressure signs the way they are sooted up. In .30-30 leveer guns, when primers start getting flat on the edges, things are getting pretty hot.

I kind of thought the same thing. I have seen this a lot because I load a lot of plinking loads for this gun. I also polished each case neck to a shine just to be able to tell these things. The 31 grain load did show the best sign of soot being decreased.

What do you see from my primers? I have been looking around this morning and there are several accounts of cratered primers in the 30-30. I am not seeing any sign of this. I'm not even seeing much in the way of flattened ones.

[newton]

I really don't think its too slow of a powder. There are slower than this used with this boolit with great success. Now, if I were using a 150 or 170 grain one I could see it. But heck, I am using the Lee 170(182 grain actual) with H4350 and having good results. But those results only came with the 100%+ loading(compacted).

I do think I will try paper patching it though. I cannot see where it would hurt, and it would help with fit.

[Hurricane]

What do you mean by "The 30,000 psi or so will the bullet and GC together."? I assume you mean push/hold?

What I meant was that when you shoot the gun the pressure inside the cartariage will be around 30,000 psi trying to push the bullet and crimped on GC out of the case and down the barrel and it would be unlikely the GC would come off and cause trouble.

[newton]

I just went back and checked, all the primers backed out some. Just the low grain ones backed out a lot. The 30 grain load, in the Winchester case, does seem to be the least backed out for sure. But they are all backed out, took a straight edge and held them up to light.

[newton]

This is from the 31 grain load. You can clearly see the primer backed out.

121134

[newton]

Measured how far its out. .003" on the 31 grain load.

If it was beyond pressure, would it be coming out that far?

[newton]

Its .005" out on the 28 grain load. The case heads are .060" on the 28 grain case, and .059" on the 31 grain case.

That would mean that my head space is close to spec, but more importantly that pressures are just starting to push the primer back in the pocket on the upper end. I might have a factory round left I could fire and see what the primer measures then.

It is kind of hard measuring the distance out though, so I could be off .001" for sure. The rims are also not uniformly thick around the entire rim. So that throws something in the mix there.

[newton]

Really wish I could get some more feedback on this. Did I post in the wrong place? To much info to weed through?

[Char-Gar]

Just a couple of observation on the subject at hand...

1. 4895 or 3031 would be better powder choices for cast bullet in the 30-30. Varget and H335 also work well. Slower powders like 4350 will never do well in the 30-30 case. Can't get enough in the case to give decent velocities.

2. The RCBS 180 FNGC really casts at 190 grains so expect lower velocity

3. Cast bullets act very differently than jacketed bullets, so trying to cross reference data is a waste of time.

4. You worry to much about numbers and such.

5. All that matters is the size of the group and whether the empty case ejects easy and smartly from the rifle

6. A 190 grain FN bullet traveling 1,900 fps or more is all you need to shoot and kill a deer.

[newton]

Just a couple of observation on the subject at hand...

1. 4895 or 3031 would be better powder choices for cast bullet in the 30-30. Varget and H335 also work well. Slower powders like 4350 will never do well in the 30-30 case. Can't get enough in the case to give decent velocities.

2. The RCBS 180 FNGC really casts at 190 grains so expect lower velocity

3. Cast bullets act very differently than jacketed bullets, so trying to cross reference data is a waste of time.

4. You worry to much about numbers and such.

5. All that matters is the size of the group and whether the empty case ejects easy and smartly from the rifle

6. A 190 grain FN bullet traveling 1,900 fps or more is all you need to shoot and kill a deer.


Well, at least I got someone to respond. lol

Really though, thanks for the observations. I wish I could get some other powders. There is a lot more data for Win 748 with this boolit. My current hunting load is Lee 170(183 grain) with H4350 behind it. Shoots great at around 1950 fps. Killed 2 deer dead with it so far.

My RCBS is coming in at 194 grains. I was hoping by going to a little faster powder I could get up to 1900 fps with this load. There is a lot of data from others who have gotten this boolit to move that fast. I think its the 20" barrel on my gun that is not allowing it though. Most data I have seen is for 24" barrels, with some being from 26" barrels. Those slower powders do push a boolit faster in a longer barrel.

I have seen multiple times, and even in some manuals, that when loading for the 30-30 in particular, jacketed data can be cross referenced pretty well. Has to do with the low pressures of this round or something. I know that I have done so with other boolits in the gun at least, and gotten pretty close results. Now if you are saying that you can exceed published jacketed loads, with the same powder and same weight projectile, loaded to the same OAL, then that's another thing. So far, I have not read anywhere on this site or anywhere else that jacketed loads are a complete waste of time.

I do worry about numbers. I am a numbers kind of guy, but its not all I worry about. Numbers is how we define things though, so that's why I use them so much. If someone was to say, "whats the OAL of your round" it would be pointless for me to say, "oh, about as long as my finger".

I would not say that all that matters is the size of the group. If I were just target shooting, then yes. Most definitely. But what I am working on is a hunting load very specifically. It is all it will be used for. I have a great plinking load that I can shoot 125 yard groups all day long with, but its only traveling a tad over 1200 fps. It would poke a hole in a deer, no doubt, but I would have to trail that deer for a while and wait for it to finally die. Just not worth it to me.

Your point 6 is exactly what I was trying to get to. lol That's what ALL of this is about. I was trying to get to 1900 and its why I was pushing so hard to get there. If it were not for me wanting to get to that point, this thread would not exist. The fact that I am so far below the velocity point that so many others are reaching with this boolit, and using powders which are very close to the one I am, and even getting higher velocity with slower powders, is the frustrating part of all of this.

Thanks for your input though. It helps to talk it all through.

[Char-Gar]

You won't have any trouble at all getting 1,900 fps with any of the 4 powders mentioned in my post above (point 1). Powders slower than those will prove problematic in reaching your goal. But that is what you have already discovered.

[newton]

You won't have any trouble at all getting 1,900 fps with any of the 4 powders mentioned in my post above (point 1). Powders slower than those will prove problematic in reaching your goal. But that is what you have already discovered.

The only problem I am running into is risk of over pressure. And that is only because I am not finding any data for that particular powder for the weight of boolit I have. Is that what you speak of? I have plenty of room left in the case to push it faster harder, and I already have with the one load of 31 grains. But at 31 grains I am superseding the max load, for a similar weighted jacketed bullet, by 2 grains. 2 grains over max seems to me to be significant is it not? I understand its cast versus jacketed, but that just seems like a lot.

Make sense? The only thing I am seeing your saying is that I cannot get enough in the case. I am telling you first hand I can, but don't feel comfortable because of the lack of data.

Would you say that my load of 31 grains, pushing that 194 grain cast boolit to 1900fps+ is under safe pressures? At first I thought it was, which is why I even attempted it. But because of the inability, other than case head expansion, to get a relative idea of what the pressures are, I cannot bring myself to continue to go there.

So, the question I pose to you is your only reason for the above use of powders because of case fill?

[Char-Gar]

So, the question I pose to you is your only reason for the above use of powders because of case fill?

No, my reason for advocating the use of 4895 and 3031 is because I have used in for cast bullet handloads in various 30-30's for over 45 years and so has many many others. They gave the right burning rate for the case volume and bore. 28 grains of either powder will give you 1,900 plus a few fps. Size your bullets .310 or .311 and go hunting. That is all there is to it.

The reason you don't find data is because your powder choice is a poor choice. The absent of data for one powder and the abundance of data for another, is what is called a clue. If you live on the dark side of the moon and can't get the proper powder, your quest makes sense, otherwise it does not.

The 30-30 round has been around for well over 100 years and folks have been shooting cast bullets in the case for about that long. There are no secrets yet to be discovered. We know how to load cast bullet in the case to get 1,9000 - 2,100 fps from the muzzle of our rifles. This was known long before I was born and I am 72 years old.

If the primers are backing out that means one of two things;

1. Your rifle has excess headspace.

2. Your loads are too light and the primers are not being reset against the bolt face by adequate pressure.

With excessive pressure, primers get flat, smear and primer pockets expand to the point they won't hold the primer, but they don't back out.

I have not read your post with great detail, because most of it does not make any sense as it seems to be allot of gibberish with numbers. But my general impression is your problems are due to low pressure which comes from using powders too slow for the application and are afraid to use more powder because of absence of data and fear of excessive pressure. You have this stuff all turned upside down. I would guess you lack some of the basic knowledge needed to interpret your results correctly. I assumed you had enough knowledge to place my responses in the proper context.

I am not trying to insult you or be arrogant, just trying to be helpful and I am finding that hard to do. Maybe a little straight talk is what is needed.

Best of luck...Charles Graff

[newton]

I understand, and take no offense at all. If you did read through the thread then it may help with some of your points. I don't have access to those powders. I may have enough of 4895 and Varget to run a few loads just to see what happens. It might tell me whether or not its a barrel length issue.

You would also see that my mold does not throw .310" boolits. They are .309". This may be the problem also.

I still don't understand your opposition to 4320. It sits right behind Varget. It's also a listed powder for bullets 170 grains and lighter with good velocity reports and in many different sources. It's only the lack of info for 190+ grain boolits. I understand your support of those powders, but your confusing about why not to try the 4320.

Many people have used the slower powders including 4350, with great success. Lots of data out there. Would not have been unless someone had worked it up.

[Char-Gar]

I understand, and take no offense at all. If you did read through the thread then it may help with some of your points. I don't have access to those powders. I may have enough of 4895 and Varget to run a few loads just to see what happens. It might tell me whether or not its a barrel length issue.

You would also see that my mold does not throw .310" boolits. They are .309". This may be the problem also.

I still don't understand your opposition to 4320. It sits right behind Varget. It's also a listed powder for bullets 170 grains and lighter with good velocity reports and in many different sources. It's only the lack of info for 190+ grain boolits. I understand your support of those powders, but your confusing about why not to try the 4320.

Many people have used the slower powders including 4350, with great success. Lots of data out there. Would not have been unless someone had worked it up.

1. The difference between a bullet .309 and the same bullet .310 won't have any effect on velocity thought it might have some effect on accuracy.

2. A 20" barrel carbine can easily hit 1,900 - 2,200 fps with cast bullets.

3. I am not opposed to 4320. I started using it in 1959 in a 243 Winchester. I soon quit it, as it proved to be touchy in that small increases could cause a larger jump in pressure than I wanted. I found 4895 and 4350 to be more regular and predictable in their performance.

4. 4350 is one of the best powders for medium to large capacity cases, but doesn't start to do it's tricks properly until a charge 0f 45 grains is used and the 30-30 case can't reach that mark. 4350 is one of the best powders for the 30-06 and similar capacity rounds, unless you are talking about loading for the Garand then then it is a lousy choice.

5. If you will look at major published loading books that contain data for 4350 in the 30-30 round, you will see the results (velocity) are lower than those with others powders. If you truly want to use 4350 in the 30-30 round, just fill the case to the bottom of the bullet and have at it. You might reach your goal and you won't get into pressure trouble. You will most likely have unburned powder kernels in the barrel due to lack of compete burning of the powder charge.

Still your best bet will be the medium burning powders like 4895, 3031, Varget and the like.

[Yodogsandman]

I have read your thread over and over about 4-5 times now, the amount of information and assumptions are confusing.

I have no experience with 4320 at all. In this day and age of powder shortages, we all have to use what we have.

One glaring problem I see is that you are using mixed head stamp cases for testing. The FC cases and WW cases are showing different pressure signs and they're confusing you a bit. The WW cases may be at or over maximum load at 31.0gr, the FC cases are not. Stick to one head stamp or the other to work loads up.

Are your cases stretching much? Are you trimming with each reload? Are your crimps consistent?

Your loads show some promise using the FC cases. Your primers are indicating low pressure. At 31.0 gr they still aren't even returning to flat with the case head base. Less and less soot on your case necks show your pressure is getting to a point where it's opening up the case mouth fast enough to seal properly. Don't dwell on the soot too much.

Extrapolating jacketed bullet data is OK for start loads, not max loads. You determine that with YOUR GUN, YOUR COMPONENTS and YOUR LOADING techniques. As you've pointed out, the friction in the bore with cast is much less than jacketed bullets. Cast boolits are slippery. Less pressure is developed with cast, that's why faster powders normally work better. I would suggest using a starting load from a lighter weight jacketed bullet because of it having less bearing surface. The longer bearing surface of a heavier cast boolit would have be closer to the same amount of barrel friction as the lighter weight jacketed bullet. The cast boolit being longer, would take up more internal case space though, limiting powder space and choices.

Larger batches of test boolits would give better velocity info. Larger batches would give better group info.

Your barrel length is what it is. Yes, shorter barrels give less velocity.

I've loaded plenty of boolits with GC's down into the powder space. It's not the best situation but, I see little if any difference in the groups shot.

[newton]

I did jump around a lot. I can see how it may be confusing. Lots of stuff in my head about it all.

I will stick to one case. I think that will help and it is throwing me off a little too.

Im going to see if I cannot track down some of the other powder listed. I'm out of town, maybe I'll find a store around here to get some. If not, I am pretty sure I have some 4895 or Varget enough to try at least a few loads. My pet load with the lee is 30 grains of Varget. It was a sweet load. Wish I would have bought more powder when it was available.

The thing that has me most confused, but probably shouldn't, is the 4320 producing too much pressure with the 31 grain load. All things I know point to it not, but a small part feels it is.

i wish there was not so many different choices in powder. Maybe there would be more tested data on powders.

I have a lot to chew on. Maybe by Monday I'll have time to digest.

[Ramjet-SS]

No, my reason for advocating the use of 4895 and 3031 is because I have used in for cast bullet handloads in various 30-30's for over 45 years and so has many many others. They gave the right burning rate for the case volume and bore. 28 grains of either powder will give you 1,900 plus a few fps. Size your bullets .310 or .311 and go hunting. That is all there is to it.

The reason you don't find data is because your powder choice is a poor choice. The absent of data for one powder and the abundance of data for another, is what is called a clue. If you live on the dark side of the moon and can't get the proper powder, your quest makes sense, otherwise it does not.

The 30-30 round has been around for well over 100 years and folks have been shooting cast bullets in the case for about that long. There are no secrets yet to be discovered. We know how to load cast bullet in the case to get 1,9000 - 2,100 fps from the muzzle of our rifles. This was known long before I was born and I am 72 years old.

If the primers are backing out that means one of two things;

1. Your rifle has excess headspace.

2. Your loads are too light and the primers are not being reset against the bolt face by adequate pressure.

With excessive pressure, primers get flat, smear and primer pockets expand to the point they won't hold the primer, but they don't back out.

I have not read your post with great detail, because most of it does not make any sense as it seems to be allot of gibberish with numbers. But my general impression is your problems are due to low pressure which comes from using powders too slow for the application and are afraid to use more powder because of absence of data and fear of excessive pressure. You have this stuff all turned upside down. I would guess you lack some of the basic knowledge needed to interpret your results correctly. I assumed you had enough knowledge to place my responses in the proper context.

I am not trying to insult you or be arrogant, just trying to be helpful and I am finding that hard to do. Maybe a little straight talk is what is needed.

Best of luck...Charles Graff


Yup reading all this makes me think about number 1 I think you got it nailed.

[newton]

Well I found some powder. Not what some people will say is good, but I know of at least two guys on here that have used it(I know there are more) and have actual test pressures with it. So I am way more comfortable using it. Its H414. I think one thing you guys are forgetting is that I am shooting a lot heavier boolit than the standard 'heavy' 170 grain boolit.

I really do not think I have a head space issue. I have shot the gun a lot. But its a 1994 model. I only shot maybe 5 boxes total of factory ammo. Then I started reloading and only shot medium loads for hunting. I have shot untold amounts of plinking loads with Unique, Red Dot, and Herco, but they were .22 lr velocity rounds. Very low pressures.

So head space is just not really something I can see as beign an issue. I think at most, based on some numbers I have looked at(I am still going to measure for sure one day), my headspace is right around .066". While not the tightest which is .063", but also just as far away from max which is .070".

I can see how this thread was confusing. Wish it had not turned out that way. But one thing it has done, without actually doing it specifically, is answer one of my questions about the loss in velocity being attributed to my boolit not being way oversized as some people seem to do with their 30-30 boolits. So I can cross that off my list.

In the end, I think its barrel length mainly. I really believe that's where it sits. Also, I think I am near pressure max with my last loads, not over, but really need to get new cases before I try it again. I would rather not be near the max, so that's why I went with a slower powder. Yes, it will use 5 to 6 grains more each load than a faster powder would, but I know its a proven powder with this boolit and gun, and I like the slower powders. Not to mention it will be useful in a few other guns I have.

Thanks for the help guys. I'll update with the new tests when I get them done.

[newton]

Here are a few threads I am referencing for my info. You may have to search around to see where I see the data, but its there.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?181211-H414-loads-for-30-30

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?202374-H414-and-cast

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6203&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?143083-193-gr-in-a-30-30

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?15476-30-30-move-beyond-plinking-loads

There are others outside of our community that use it also, but I trust you guys the most when working with things like this. I remember sitting at this very spot last year when all I could get was H4350 and all I had was the Lee 170-fn. Lot of guys said it would be too slow and not good, but a few said it would and I found good data to show it would. So I tried it, and sure enough it worked great. I have the exact same feeling with this as I did with that.

[newton]

I tested headspace a couple different ways tonight. I will still take it one day, but I'm confident I am in spec. One way measured it at just around .060. I think that was bogus, but confused why. I pulled the primer from a case, then set it back in barley. I then slowly closed the action. Took a measurement with primer out, and after closing the bolt. I was not able to push it in with my fingers or easily get it back out with a primer punch. A lot of resistance both ways. So you can see from measurements that it was just barley protruding from the head.

The other way I put tape on till it was .070" thick from bottom of rim to top. Measured overall length to get best accuracy. The bolt would not close on this. It pushed aside the tape where the extractor and ejector are.

So based on that, I still think my head space is a tad over .062" to .063". It would pass the go no go gauge, but I wish I could accurately measure it.

The freebore is right at .020". So there is a slight jump from the case to rifling. Fingers crossed, I'll get to test tomorrow morning.

[newton]

Tested my loads today. The 34 grain was just under 1900 fps, the 34.5 was right at 1900fps, and the 35 brought me over the hump. So that's what I'm sticking with for now. I didn't get a chance to do accuracy tests, but did shoot enough to get it dialed in to kill zone area. I'm sure it's at least a 3" group. It was shooting low and interestingly enough, left of my other load. The wind was blowing a little, but would not imagine the breeze we have pushing that boolit 3" to the left.

Tried running it through some jugs to test expansion. It blew through 4 jugs and 1/2" plywood and never found it. But from the looks it held together fine and mushroomed out good also.

one big thing I noticed is there is zero blowby around the case necks. No pressure signs either. So this gets me where I want to be for the rest of this week and I'll play with it more later on this year. Hope to be able to show some results after I get back from my trip.

[wmitty]

newton,

glad to see you obtained the goal you were searching for. If you can find some, Re 7 is an excellent powder for the 30 wcf as is 3031. Just my .02

[newton]

newton,

glad to see you obtained the goal you were searching for. If you can find some, Re 7 is an excellent powder for the 30 wcf as is 3031. Just my .02

have you used it with the heavier boolits?

[GabbyM]

have you used it with the heavier boolits?

LeveRevolution by Hodgdon is a good heavy bullet powder in the 30-30. Others are WW-760, AA4064. That I've tried with the RCBS 30-180-FN. I use as my favorite so far RX7 with my 150 grain bullet. Burns very clean and shoots great. But I'd think a tad fast for the heavier slugs so I've not even given it a try under the big boolit.

Check out this old thread. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?115657-LeveRevoltuion-Powder

[jmort]

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 173 grain Lyman 311041 28.6 grains max RL7
NEI 43 175 grain bullet 25 grains RL 7 from Hand Loader Magazine.
I would try 23 to 25 grains with 180 grains.

[GabbyM]

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 173 grain Lyman 311041 28.6 grains max RL7
NEI 43 175 grain bullet 25 grains RL 7 from Hand Loader Magazine.
I would try 23 to 25 grains with 180 grains.

Only issue with that is my 30-180-FN drops a 202 grain boolit. RCBS specs the molds with linotype for the 180 grains. Most others get a 192 grain boolit. Here's a photo. Bullet on far right is Lyman 311299 at 200 grains RCBS 30-180-FN is to it's left. Bullets in photo are from left to right. Saeco 140gr, Saeco 150gr, custom 180gr, RCBS 180 and the Lyman 200gr.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50091&d=1232425178

[newton]

Yes, that link you posted is one that I used for research. It's paraphrased in one of the threads I posted a link to above.

My boolit does drop at 190, GC and lube brings it to 194. I've still got to fine tune the load, but I think this H414 is the ticket. I'll try other powders in the future for sure.

[jmort]

That is a problem. Here is data from Handloader Magazine for a 200 grain Speer bullet which is "too hot"



200
Speer
Alliant
RL-7
25.0
1,671


Remarks: accurate, too hot

[w30wcf]

newton,
H414 is a great powder for heavy bullets in the .30-30. I have been using it for that application since the 1980's when Frank Marshall who wrote a column for the Cast Bullet Association's "The Fouling Shot" introduced his readers to it.

In the 1993 Hodgdon Manual 26, H414 produced the highest velocity in the .30-30 with a 170 gr. bullet at below SAMMI MAP. (37.0 / H414 /2,259 fps /37,400CUP)

In 2003 I had the opportunity to have a ballistics lab test a couple of my heavy bullet .30-30 / H414 cartridges. One was a 205 gr. cast bullet in Winchester brass seated to a depth of .60" over a capacity load of 35 grs. ignited by WLR primers. Cartridge OAL was 2.55" which fed fine through my Marlin and Winchester lever actions.

Ballistic lab results for an average of 10 ctgs in a 24" barrel =
205 cast / 35.0 / H414 / WLP (capacity load)
velocity - 2,035 f.p.s. / SD 12 f.p.s.
pressure - 35,020 CUP /SD 1,170 CUP
Pretty consistant I'd say and at a pressure almost 10% less than SAMMI MAP (38,000 CUP) :-)

Of course each powder lot may be a bit different so the standard 10% reduction to start would be a good rule to follow.

Based on Larry Gibson's data, Leverevolution looks to be a great powder for the heavy bullet .30-30 as well.

w30wcf

[John Boy]

w30wcf ... John, I sure hope your ONE post puts to bed ALL the Newton posts!

[Yodogsandman]

Barrels too short for that load!:kidding:

Glad you found a winner! Good luck on your trip!

[GabbyM]

Well Newton I'm sure you've read it . One thing we have well documented here on cast boolits is the phenomenal killing ability of the RCBS 30-180-FN.

Only issue I've had is the long bore ride. My Win 94 in 30-30 has a bore right on .300". any fat nose boolits won't chamber. So I'd recommend you test chamber all your hunting loads before pushing them up in the mag tube and walking out into the woods.

[newton]

Well I'm back.

wc30wf, your data is for sure a lot of what I was looking at in making the decision. Just can't get by ballistics lab testing for a confident load.

John boy, I'm not sure whether to be offended or laugh. Lol. Not quite sure what you were meaning by that post.

Gabby, yes I have read about it and it's why I choose this one over the ranch dog. Well, that and price. But really, I know what heavy boolits can do first hand and I like it. Not that lighter boolits don't kill as well. And some light boolits are more accurate. But when it comes to me and deer hunting I am anything but accurate. Oh, I shoot MOD(deer), but it's about a 5" radius. I just have not learned how to calm my nerves yet. I'm getting better, but it will be a while.

I shot one that got real lucky, in a way. I just grazed him. Not sure if I pulled, he turned, or what exactly happened, but I nicked him. I found where he was standing and almost positive where the boolit ricochet off the ground. Found a piece of meat. Little bit further I found a few more pieces of meat. But only found a few specs of blood here and there for only a couple feet. Honestly, I think I had my bead too low on him. I kind of remember that, and it makes sense. He leaped away like something stung him, but not hurt at all. I hate not being able to trail a deer, but when there is no blood and they bounce instead of hop there is not much you can do. I am almost(never got a good enough look) positive I saw him a few days later and even today. It was him or his twin.

But, the second shot found its mark(I did hold a tad high this time) and a few yards later he went to sleep. Not a perfect shot, but goes to show the power of a heavy boolit. I was a tad back, I think clipped top of one lung, and then liver/gut. Through and through, about 100 yards. He will be good eating.

So, I will spend more range time for sure, but I'm happy with the load. I know all deer are different, but I made almost the same shot on a doe which was only 40 yards away and she ran around a hundred yards before collapsing. It was with the lee 170. May just be one of those things, but confidence is a lot when hunting and once dialed in I'm going to be at the top of my confidence with this gun. I see a lot more brass and powder in my future.

[williamwaco]

Newton!

Stop it!

You are driving yourself crazy over nothing!

You are reading and thinking way too much and shooting too little.

Did you know that somewhere in the vicinity of 50 million people reloaded and fired somewhere in the vicinity of a billion .30-30 cartridges before the internet was even invented? Did you know that in the beginning, most of those bullets were cast from pure lead?


The loads I am going to try are with IMR 4320. I am going to try 28, 28.5, and 29

My favorite powder for full powder .30-30 cast bullet loads would be 3031 but 4320 is also a good choice. The loads you are describing are way too hot for good cast bullet accuracy. In fact they are just WAY too hot. With your bullet start with around 20 grains and work up. I would not go more than 24.

My Lyman manual says 28gr is MAX at 37,000 PSI with a 170 grain bullet. Yours is 10 to 15 grains heavier.

Don't waste your time studying primers. Your loads should not even approach the level to start reading primers.

Quit looking for every powder you read about. There is no such thing as a magic feather and there is no such thing as a magic powder. You can get acceptable results with any powder that has a burning rate near optimum. 4320 is on the slow side for the .30-30 but not enough to give you problems.

Now if you really want to know what your rifle can do with cast bullets, try 9 grains of Unique with that bullet.
Load at least 20 of then and don't measure the first two or three groups.

[newton]

Hello...(tap tap)...is this thing on? Lol

thanks William. But in case you have not read all of it, which I wouldn't blame you for not doing, I've come to the conclusions you mention. Well, except for using 3031. I will get some to try, because I do have a few other molds for the gun, but am hesitant with its use in the 194 grainer.

If 4320 is too slow, then I must be having a real hard time with the 4350 and 414 I've used...which is not the case at all.

Most of my shooting in this gun is with unique, so I know exactly what you speak of.

[williamwaco]

Hello...(tap tap)...is this thing on? Lol

thanks William. But in case you have not read all of it, which I wouldn't blame you for not doing, I've come to the conclusions you mention. Well, except for using 3031. I will get some to try, because I do have a few other molds for the gun, but am hesitant with its use in the 194 grainer.

If 4320 is too slow, then I must be having a real hard time with the 4350 and 414 I've used...which is not the case at all.

Most of my shooting in this gun is with unique, so I know exactly what you speak of.

Again, you appear to be over thinking the problem, of course you can use 4350, or H870 if you want to. Experience of many shooters for many years suggests that you will get better results with something else. You are in pretty much uncharted territory with that bullet weight in the .30-30. All I can find is in the Lee manual with a 190 gr bullet.
They list accurate 2700,2550, 2015, 2460, 2230, 5744, and 2495. Of those, only 2700 is as slow as 4350. 2230 is very close to 3031.

My advice is to concentrate your attention on one specific powder until you exhaust its possibilities before you jump to another. If you like 4350, or 414 use them. But don't overload your '94.

The original purpose of slow burning powder was to achieve higher velocity with large cartridge cases and long barrels. A '94 .30-30 has neither of these needs.

[Char-Gar]

Newton, you are way over emphasizing the difference between the weight of the RCBS bullet and weight of other cast bullet designs for the 30-30 in the 170 - 180 grain weight category. Any good load for the other heavy weight bullets can be reduced 2 to 3 grains and used for the RCBS bullet.

There just really isn't this great conundrum about the use of the RCBS bullet in the 30-30 round. This falls into the category of making a mountain out of a mole hill. Many people use this bullet with good effect with a variety of medium burn rate powders.

Maybe you thrive on this kind of angst and painful detail, but most of us are not cut out of that cloth. We just go shooting and don't spend time on the excruciating detail that seems so important to you. It is very difficult to help you are you seem determined to make this far more complex than it is. If you have not noticed the frustration level of some of the responses is getting pretty high.

[newton]

Lmao. The frustration is on my end from those who choose not to read what I've been trying to do, yet give advise and thoughts in the same category that I have already stated. I was simply sharing my experience and wanting to gain some insight from others concerning this boolit with the use of the powders I have mentioned. Yet all I keep on getting, from those who do not seem to want to read all the discussion(not from those who have understood what I am actually doing), is their "expertise" of the round and suggestions that are completely not what I am looking for. How many times I have stated I do not have, not want to try and wait to get 3031, is beyond me.

you cannot, I emphasises cannot, just take a heavier boolit and assume load data is close enough to a lighter boolit. If that was the case, then there would be no need for load manuals. They would list a light boolit weight charge and say "from here on up just decrease charge a few grains for each step of boolit weight". That's absured.

I started with trying to find more info specifically for 4320 from others. How to work up a load using that powder. Some people have helped, some have criticized. I find helpful people nice to be around, critical people not so much unless it is helpful criticism. I got good criticism about the use of 4320 and moved on to a powder I could get and that I have found abundant data for. At that point, I was simply sharing my use of it. But yet, people still want to get on here and critisise my use of a powder when it's doing well and has for other also. I'm dumbfounded. If it was not so hilarious I'd probably be perturbed. I'm not the one making a mountain from a mile hill, others are. Oh the irony of it all! Lol

Ill keep with my communication about using this boolit and how it goes. If you don't like how I'm sharing, fine, don't read it and go back to your high mountain of knowitallism. I imagine that in the future I will come across a lb of 3031 and actually try it. I'm sure I'll like it. But until then there is nothing wrong with me sharing about my use of the slower powders. Unless of course, it's a conspiracy? Maybe some are closet slow powder users and don't want the word out they work just fine so people won't go buying all of it up off the shelf. Lol. Maybe that is the deal after all.

I didn't know that "most" of you were all like that char. I did not know that "most" of you always thought of yourselves more highly, and how you do things, as to derive such pain from the "least" of us talking about our experiences. I seem to have not run across "most" of you on the past few years that I have been on here learning and sharing.

[newton]

Again, you appear to be over thinking the problem, of course you can use 4350, or H870 if you want to. Experience of many shooters for many years suggests that you will get better results with something else. You are in pretty much uncharted territory with that bullet weight in the .30-30. All I can find is in the Lee manual with a 190 gr bullet.
They list accurate 2700,2550, 2015, 2460, 2230, 5744, and 2495. Of those, only 2700 is as slow as 4350. 2230 is very close to 3031.

My advice is to concentrate your attention on one specific powder until you exhaust its possibilities before you jump to another. If you like 4350, or 414 use them. But don't overload your '94.

The original purpose of slow burning powder was to achieve higher velocity with large cartridge cases and long barrels. A '94 .30-30 has neither of these needs.

i assure you I'm not overthinking. I am simply thinking. I thought(there I go again thinking...) that when you do venture into uncharted territory thinking is a wise thing to do. Sorry if once something has been said by one individual on their experience, it cannot be talked about from others. Is this a rule of the forum I missed somewhere? Better results is not what I am looking for.

Good grief. If I didn't want to try different things I'd just buy factory ammo and call it good. What fun is that? I want to develop and try new things, but do do safely. That's why I'm talking about it. If I am truly doing something unsafe then please tell me. But what's different about me talking about something that has been talked about, and others keeping on talking about using a powder I don't have?

im going to stick to h414 for a while before moving on. I know there is no published data, but at the risk of yet repeating myself once again, there is enough data - tested data - that it is quite safe for my gun and can be used with good success. I realize its not the norm, or what others consider optimum. I understand the use of slow bs fast powders. But I consider any powder I can get, that is safe to use, and shoots my boolits to a degree of acceptable accuracy - I cosider that optimum. Now, if I was to walk into the store and have my choice of any powder available, then yes, I would be choosing something else.

Goodness, I can just see it now, someone is going to get on here and tell me that I shouldn't be shooting a 30-30 at all or that Marlins are better guns and I'm wasting my time with a Winchester. Lol