Wiping [the bore] between shots

[Maven]

I didn't want to hijack this thread, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?253364-CVA-32-cal-Squirrel-Rifle, particularly posts #22 & 26, but I have to ask, who does this and to what effect? For the record, I generally don't and see no loss of accuracy as a result, but I use a wet patch in all my ML long guns. Some further questions, is difficult starting & seating, the loss of accuracy, and hence the need for bore wiping linked to these factors:

caliber, where smaller means more fouling?

bore smoothness, i.e., no rough spots?

BP powder granulation, e.g., FFg v. FFFg?

Powder charge?

BP brand, e.g., Swiss v. Elephant?

Type of projectile, e.g., patched RB v. conical v. saboted conical?

Type of lube, i.e., liquid v. solid, as in various greases, e.g., Bore Butter & clones, white Crisco, etc.?


Btw, only 1 of my traditional ML's required wiping between shots (since sold) for best accuracy. My inline doesn't with a [wet] patched RB, but with a Maxi-Ball or saboted CB, it most certainly does, even when using Pyrodex RS (which I no longer do).

[waksupi]

The only time I have seen any benefit to wiping between shots, assuming you are using a good lube and proper powder charge, is for benchrest shooting. Even at that, it is minimal.
I find that with smoothbores in particular, if accuracy falls off, to scrape the breech. A hard fouling builds up and effects accuracy. During competition, I will scrape the breech every 8-10 shots. The same thing can and will effect a rifle, although it doesn't seem to be to the same extent. In both rifles and smoothbores, if you are getting misfires or hang fires, it is a good possibility the breech is fouled.

[mooman76]

Typically I don't wipe between shots. Like you I have one particular rifle that I need to wipe at least every third shot or accuracy drops off quick and it happens to be a 32 cal. Before I go further maybe I should give some particulars. I usually use spit patch. When I don't I use bore butter. Not because I think it is all that great but because I have it and it is handy. I kind of like the smell too even if others don't. I usually shoot loads on the light side also like equivalent to caliber. I shoot Mostly RBs but when I don't I shoot REALs w/ BB. I Mostly shoot Pyrodex ff in larger calibers and fff in the smaller ones but also have real black(GOEX). When my Pyrodex is used up as long as I can get a supply of the real stuff I'll continue to shoot that. None of my guns have rough bores, all in good shape.

I got into an argument with another fellow( a particularly argumentative person) on another board over wiping vs not. He insisted I was having crappy accuracy or mediocre at best and that I would get a ball stuck from not wiping. I later found out through reading his posts that he used to not wipe and got a ball stuck at a bad time during a shoot and that's why he quit. I have never got a stuck ball except the one time I accidentally p/u the wrong size. By the time I figured it out, I had it in too far and couldn't get it back out as I had nothing to pull it and decided to try to drive it in the rest of the way. Didn't work by the way.

My observations on it are:
If you use a wet lube like spit patch or moose milk you can get away with not wiping because the wet patch wipes the bore as the ball is pushed down. Smaller calibers tend to foul worse but not always.
Also lighter loads have less fouling and less need to wipe.
The REALs kind of scrape the bore on the way down removing allot of the fouling.
I could probably squeeze out a little more accuracy by wiping but I'm not a bench shooter or shooting in contests so I am happy with the accuracy I have.
On another note I have observed allot of shooters, especially new one run into problems from wiping and quite often other things get the blame like the old Patent breeches or not cleaning their guns good enough or oil left in the gun when loading. The reason (and I am sure there are others I don't know about) wiping with too wet a patch or pushing the fouling down too far so after loading a few shots all of a sudden, the gun won't fire. Most of my guns have patent breeches and I have never had a problem getting any of my guns to fire. Sometimes because I forget to pop a cap before first load but then it's all good after that.

[tomme boy]

I do when just shooting to mess around. It really helps on MY guns. I wrap a wet patch around the cleaning jag and use that to seat whatever I am shooting. That is all the amount of swabbing that I do. Hunting, no.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i run a wet patch down the barrel after each shot and i let the barrel cool works good for me
Encore at 100 yards 120862
thats 3 shots

[johnson1942]

if i was to make a barrel that shot all day with out wipeing, would deep grooves help? and how deep should i go for a rifle that didnt need wipeing? i value your knowledge.

[Maven]

Nice shooting, LD13!

Roger, I'm not all that knowledgeable about barrel characteristics or whether grooves, deep shallow, or even none (as in a smoothie) affect whether a bore needs wiping. Better to ask Waksupi about this. Btw, my smoothbores, with no grooves, don't require a greater amount of wiping than my rifles, which is to say, very little for either type.

[oldracer]

This is one of those items that cause lots of discussion, at times even very heated! At our monthly matches there are some that do not wipe until after the whole match is finished! I wipe between each shot with a wet patch with Balistol and water and double side a dry patch to dry things. I add the powder with a funnel/drop tube so nothing hits the side of the barrel. This is how I was taught when I started out and the old timer I recently bought 3 Hawken rifles from did it this way also.

The bottom line is to try different methods to see what works for your guns so that generally mean some sort of rest such as a Lead Sled so the shooter is not in the equation as much and similar weather conditions. When I do this I make a list of the possibilities and note what is good, bad or awful!

[Old Scribe]

I use Hoppes 9+ for my patch lube and have never had the need to wipe between shots. I agree that a wet patch around a ball wipes the residue as the ball is rammed down. My flinter has a Colraine barrel with round groves and I think this also helps. Everyone I shoot with uses wet patches.

[fouronesix]

Depends on what I'm trying to do.

For situations where I want to shoot a group or verify POI that will be equivalent to what a cold clean bore will be for first shot hunting- I swab, clean, dry and let cool between each shot.

When shooting just for fun, I'll shoot until either the accuracy is lost or loading becomes difficult- that varies depending on gun and load.

If I'm feeling anachronistic and trying to determine, historically, what a shooter or soldier was faced with 150 years ago, I'll shoot without swabbing or cleaning until accuracy goes wild or loading becomes difficult.

I will say that in several rifles/loads, either conicals or patched roundballs, best accuracy is achieved only if the bore is swabbed or cleaned between shots.

In most of my rifled muskets with Miniés, I can go quite a few shots before things head south.

One mistake some make and I've witnessed it over and over is that they don't clean between shots and start having trouble after a shot or two BUT refuse to swab between shots. It even goes to the extreme of having to pound the ball or bullet down the bore. Those shooters don't have much interest in learning or don't care or don't care to know and will probably never take ML shooting seriously. (Likely source of most of the lightly used but rusted out closet queen MLs that constantly hit the market).

The other mistake I see often is improper swabbing or cleaning between shots. Those shooters don't have a good rod, correct jag or patches for the purpose and usually succeed only in pushing a glob of wet fouling down into the flash channel-- then have a heckuva time figuring out how to get the gun to fire. Common excuses include: bad lube, wrong swabbing solution, bad cap, bad nipple, weak spring, bad powder, etc. Shooters using BP subs have a hard enough time getting the stuff to light reliably or without hang fire- poor swabbing or cleaning really compounds that problem.

[Lead Fred]

Since I built me flinter it has always had Thompson Center 1000+ products through it.

Ive had three shooters using it on a 25 target walk, and not one wipe ever. Thats 75 shots in a short span of time.

Petroleum products mix with holy black and make sludge, I do not use fake powder, or modern rifles, because they offend me.

[bob208]

it is not how deep the groves. it is how much powder you use. you over load and most do. you have more fouling. my .40 I use 40 gr.3f can shoot all day with out wiping. up the charge to 50gr. it fouls and it needs wiping. my .45 45 gr. shoot it all day. go up to 50-55 gr. 3 shots and I have to wipe it to load.

[Boaz]

I generally wipe between shots at the range because I intentionally over patch . Lot easier than pulling hung balls .

[dikman]

One of those things for which there can be no definitive answer, as there are too many variables involved. Some rifles seem to need swabbing while others don't. There's no doubt that the brand/type of powder will play a big part as some are more prone to creating fouling than others.
I've been trying for a long time to get my Pedersoli Frontier to shoot consistently. I've always had to swab between shots, if I don't by the third shot I virtually have to hammer the ball/patch down! Last time out I decided to try a waxed card wad over the powder. It shot pretty well (which means it was hitting the target!!) but more interesting was that the third shot loaded as easily as the first. Just need to see if I can replicate it next time out.

Learning how to deal with fouling in a particular rifle is one of the mysteries of shooting muzzleloaders.

[deerslayer303]

I wipe to a clean patch, dry, and let the barrel cool also. Simply because I want to see how the rifle is going to perform on a cold clean barrel when hunting. For recreational shooting, No I do not wipe but every 5 shots or so. And then its just a one time swab.

[OverMax]

I seldom swab my barrels. {Only when its needed.} I actually find it annoying having to stop and clean a barrel at my club range. Then again I'm not much of a year round target shooter. My muzzle loaders are purposely sighted in for 100 yards only once. Thereafter their used for hunting purposes only. If I feel the urge to shoot something target perhaps. I have one or two modern others for that purpose.

[johnson1942]

i also have been wondering about some of the videos ive seen on shooting a patched round ball. one guy was useing a patch so big it looked like half a handkerchief going down with the ball. he was shooting in woodland and very close. ive always felt a uniform shaped patch with the ball in the center was best but again that may not be so. what is every ones else experience? i really think the post about not overchargeing is right on, it really makes sense. it also seems to me, the hotter the primer the less fouling their is in the breech.

[nagantguy]

i run a wet patch down the barrel after each shot and i let the barrel cool works good for me
Encore at 100 yards 120862
thats 3 shotsnice I also get that type of accuracy with my encore for three shots then they start to drift high and left, especially with the 320 gr REALS I'm working with now. Three is plenty for hunting but for a day at the range, it takes a little more time but I'm hoping putting a kurl on them and powder coating will help some. I'll.see tomorrow! Nice shooting luckydawg13.

[rking22]

Depends. If I'm just playin, plinking really ,I only wipe when loading gets stiff. Could be 20+ shots, depending on the gun. If I'm hunting, I load VERY carefully for the first shot, then the reload is no wipe, eyes on the deer or his path, because I know it will shoot the same"relatively" as a clean dry bore. And I do not have to worry about moisture or crud in the flash channel. Relatively, because I have tried it repeatedly on the range. I do not carry a benchrest to the woods, so I spend 90% of my range time shooting from standing supported, like I do when I am in the woods. There is' somet-guns, a slight measurable difference from the bench, but really no more than the "zero shift" sometimes seen between shooting on bags and field positions. Now, when match shooting, I tend to wipe every 3 shots, on the standing course and like hunting on a woods walk. I am too ADD for bench rest :)
More wiping on the 36 than 50s, and I always use a crisco like lube pretty wet. Patches generally cut at the muzzle. The hunting load gets a dry patch as a wad between powder and patched ball, as I do not shoot it every day. I don't spit patch, because I would not load a hunting load with spitpatch for the same reason. I do spit patch sometimes when "goofin off", especially with the 12bore.
I think it comes down to how much moisture is in the bore following the shot vs how much foweling. Too much powder or not enough moisture and hard loading results. I do "introduce moisture into the bore following the shot", no more detail there as I do not want to get THAT discussion started:) I do what I do ,everyone else can decide for themselves too.
I really think the hard loading,I hear about from my sabo shooting friends, is due to the lack of a good lube and outragious amounts of propellant!
Seemed to be a survey kinda post, so that's my sperience, YMMV,, keep the powder dry !

[Maven]

"I really think the hard loading I hear about from my sabot shooting friends is due to the lack of a good lube and outragious amounts of propellant!" ...rking22

Not to mention the fouling left behind by the sabot itself. I was talking to a fellow club members at our range the other day about that very thing. He said after 3 or 4 shots of 2 Pyrodex pellets/ shot + saboted jacketed bullets, loading became much more difficult.

[Plastikosmd]

yes, always. but I am a bench shooter
100 yards with round ball, various calibers, no scope, 5 shot groups, first with 2 five shot groups on it. all center circles are 1" for reference


http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/r%20l%20morris/th_9fd2dfe7.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/r%20l%20morris/th_8fc2f3e3.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/r%20l%20morris/th_788884e46fe53c0caac768c8bd524bd0.jpg
or more, a sighter then 20 shots
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/r%20l%20morris/th_ed10826c.jpg

[dikman]

Wish my eyes were that good at 50 yards, let alone 100!!!

[fouronesix]

That's what we're talkin' about! Most excellent.

[Plastikosmd]

Aperture sights make it a good deal easier.