Sight Picture

[Matt Muir]

Just curious on what sight picture you fellas use with semi buck horn sight. I have since I was little "covered" what I wanted to hit with the front blade. I know many use a full sight picture aiming below their intended target. I never fooled with that much and now that my eyes aint what they were when I was a snot nose, the blade is hard to see. I will be getting a MVA full tang and glope in the future, but not for a few months. Buying all the molds, and sizer dies, and and the million other things has added up. Don't want to push my luck with the dear wifey just yet.

Also, do you bury the blade in the slot on the bottom of the buck horn for 100 yrds? It is a sight that came from Shiloh.

I assume bottom of slot for 100, top of horns for 200 and raise the ladder from there.

The wealth of information on this site is a Godsend for the newbe.

Thanks ,Matt

Oh, I almost forgot, my 11 year old is absolutley hooked on this gun. I have loaded 50 rdns of various configurations of smokeless and BP and around 15 sighters to us before I start working on loads. He has fired most of my sighters and informed me that we will be going to the range on Sat, even with snow in the forecast. I see big money in the future for more Sharps.

[405]

I think I know the sight your asking about. Kind of a semi buckhorn I think... big wide sweeping semi circle with a small notch in bottom.

Sight alignment (rear sight + front sight).... put top edge of front blade even with the imaginary line across the top of the small notch in rear sight.... just like a target or patridge sight without the big wide "buckhorn" appendages :)

Sight picture (rear sight + front sight + target)...with a blade... two ways as you describe. For me depends on which way proves to be most repeatable/accurate for target. If shooting at black bull usually I'll use six o'clock hold where front blade is centered in rear notch and the top of blade is even with imaginary line across top of small notch.... then top edge of front blade is even with bottom of bull and centered left to right. It's probably best to adjust the rear elevator for yardage differences but maintain the same sight picture (the blade in small notch with the top of blade at 6 o'clock on the bull).

With the aperture and globe all that will change. If your target is black bull you'll settle on a size and style of globe which gives the best, most accurate/repeatable sight picture- ends up being usually a circle inside a circle inside a circle type thing.... The eye naturally centers things within a circle.... therefore the accuracy of the aperture-circle globe-bull sight picture. Some prefer a post front in their globe but I've found the thin circle front suits my shooting best. You'll get a set of different type inserts to try out with the globe front.

Certainly glad your youngin' is enjoying all the activity- such excitement :mrgreen:

[freedom475]

I file the front so I can hit things dead on up close with the blade tight into the notch...Like if I want to shoot the head off a grouse or blow-up a gopher. I take a heavy "bead" for 100yrds if I need to take a fast shot at a deer or other large game. For targets and less hurried shots the ladder comes up. My Csharps buckhorn has a notch in the bottom of the ladder under the adjustable portion of the ladder, this is about on at 100yrds. The ladder goes up 5bumps for 500yrds , (just got lucky with load/boolit, sight combo)

If you have a full buckhorn and you hold the blade between the horns your going to lob a boolit a LOOng ways.:mrgreen:

I like a sight picture that alows the boolit to sit on top of the blade.Not really a 6 o'clock hold but I know/hope the boolit will hit exactly at the top of the blade.

As mentioned, For bullseye shooting with the tang and globe front , the circle insert can't be beat....Circle in a circle in a circle....they just line-up and this will alow some very small 1in. or smaller groups at 100yrds with iron sights.

Your in for it now......the sharps is a very addictive gun. I have packed mine on some hellish hunts and hikes:Fire:

[Don McDowell]

Matt I use the buckhorn and blade just like a pistol sight. I set the sights for 100 yds, file the front or rear whichever way it needs to go. Then it works out pretty close for the yardage setttings on the ladder, when using full throttle (1300 for the 405's and 1200 for the 500's) bp loads.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Matt,

My eyes are such crap that I had to widen the Notch on my buckhorn sight to see the blade well enough on my Shiloh Business Rifle.

Kenny Wasserburger

[sundog]

Matt, one of, if not the best, shootin' lever gun I have is a Mdl94 32 Spl with a Ly tang and a 'reworked' front post from a bead sight. It's a post now. Sight picture is put the proposed POI @ 100 right on top of the post. A file and a few minutes does great things. Way better than covering the 'spot' with another 'spot'.

[405]

Matt,
I just pulled a "Montana" Sharps rear sight out of my catch-all sight box. Could be either Shiloh or C Sharps??? If you have the semi buckhorn that doubles as a ladder type sight in flipped up position.... that's what I'm looking at. The down position with the buckhorn gives about a .330" distance from barrel top to small notch in bottom of buckhorn. The lowest height in the up position using the bar on the ladder gives about a .475" distance from barrel top to notch on slide bar. That difference is fairly large and can be a problem for whatever the in-between distances that gun will "register" (POI) with whatever ammo/bullet it shoots. When you get the tang sight on there it will solve all that and give continuous adjustment from point blank out to several hundred yards.

You can maybe file a little on the rear bottom of the buckhorn to lower that notch but there isn't much lee-way because the buckhorn gets really thick there. By filing down a little at the rear notch it may bring the POI down a little.... same with filing down the sight bar on the ladder portion of the sight.

But filing down the front will raise the POI on target with both the buckhorn in the down position AND with the ladder when flipped in the up position.

I'd just try to get something reasonable worked out so you can shoot for accuracy and groups at both 50 and 100 yards with the sight that's on the rifle.... file or tweak or whatever. Blasting at 200-500 yards with the set up as it is will be fun but do little in testing loads or getting a feel for how accurate the gun/ammo is. THEN when you get the sights on it that are capable of accuracy testing and being serious at 200 yards plus you can blast WAY out there, ala Quigley, and have some reward in accuracy :)

[Don McDowell]

Matt when I got the front sight filed to poa at 100(sight folded down) with the ladder stood up and the slide in the lowest position it was good at 225. (shiloh sight)
If you loose the gotta have a scope mentality you'll be able to shoot fine groups to a couple hundred and maybe out to three with the sights the way they are. Just takes practice.

Picture small group on target paper is 100 yds off xsticks, the white paper is 200 yds off hand with the rifle set just as it appears in the picture.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/sharps3.jpg

[405]

Haven't seen anything in Matt's posts about a scope?? He did mention not having 18 year old eyes. I don't have 18 year old eyes either but still have 20/20.... but most definately not at 2-3 inches for tang, 12-14 + inches for rear barrel sight, 35-40 inches at front sight combined with whatever yards at target. That is the sight picture by definition. :mrgreen: I think he is planning on a globe front and MVA tang as funds and budget allow.... very good move in my opinion.

Here's a target shot with tang aperture and globe

10 shots 75 yards from rest
C Sharps 45-110
82 grs. Goex FF
.030 card
grease cookie
.030 card
swaged, tapered, paper patched 520 gr. pure lead
.10" compression, no crimp, 1/16" paper engraved into lands

Don't think I could do it with open irons :roll:

[Don McDowell]

Yup he said when the checkbook gets healed up he's going for more better sights.

In the meantime your goings on about not be able to shoot for accuracy beyond 50 or 100 yds with the sights he's got is, welll... not quite right.:roll:

Those sights on his rifle are capable of quite abit better accuracy ,than folks that don't shoot them, don't know how to shoot them and think you need a scope or highdollar metallics ,think they are.
Meanwhile I suspect he'll be able to find good accurate loads to suit his needs for now, and those loads will likely be more accurate at greater distances when he has the better long range sights.

[Matt Muir]

Wow that was some fine shoting in those pictures ! I do not want a scope at this time, just wan to use the sights I have to their full potential. The silver blade is hard to pick up in certain light, I will try some non permenant marker at the range on Sat. It just seeems that I will have to file to have any sort of accuracy @50 to 100 yrds.

To be fair I did try in low light conditions and I am sure with practic e I can ring out acceptable groups.. Thanks for the replys, cant wait for the "real sights".

[Don McDowell]

Matt I use my eartag ink pen for blackening the sights.
Keep the edges of that front sight sharp and that will help keep groups tight.
Hang in there and you'll get some groups that'll amaze even yourself with that rifle just the way it sets.:drinks:

[montana_charlie]

It just seeems that I will have to file to have any sort of accuracy @50 to 100 yrds.
I believe you are correct.

As I understand it, the front sight shipped by the Shiloh factory is too tall.
It is intended to be that way, so the owner can file it down for the range he wants it to be accurate at.

If you file it down so that the front blade covers the point of impact (your habitual sight picture), it will cause the bullet to strike low when fired by someone using the 'standard' sight picture.

Which way are you teaching your boy to shoot?
CM

[Matt Muir]

Don, you are right! First load I tried after some sighter shots was 34g of Imr 3031 with Montana 405 g. I had to hold bottom of 10" in target ( full sight picture) and hit the top ring with a C to C group of 1 3/8 @100yrds. Even with the good results I am going to need the globe and adj rear sight. I now want to see just how good these old style guns can shoot.

Do the long range MVA Sharps Tang sights adjust low enough to shoot 25,50 yrds? If so, do the rear sights need to be removed?

CM, my son just took to covering what he wants to hit on his own. That's one reason I may have to get more sights sooner than later. I just cover everything at 100 yrds.

My eyes must be getting weaker :)

These guns draw a lot of attention at the range for sure!

Thanks for all the great information.

[Don McDowell]

Matt I don't know if those sights will go low enough for handgun range.:???: These things are long range rigs, and lot's of folks don't shoot anything under 200 yds even in load developement. In matches theres nothing much between 200 and 350 that isn't shot off hand.
You can save a bit of money on the tang sights by going with the Ukranian tang sights, and a Lyman 17 front.
Which ever tang you go with be sure and get the hadley eye cup.

[montana_charlie]

CM, my son just took to covering what he wants to hit on his own.
I take that to mean nobody is teaching him how to shoot.
I suggest you get him a book on basic marksmanship. He may decide it's better to learn proper technique.

But, I think I now understand why you are so interested in sight settings for 25 and 50 yards...
CM

[Matt Muir]

I take that to mean nobody is teaching him how to shoot.
I suggest you get him a book on basic marksmanship. He may decide it's better to learn proper technique.

But, I think I now understand why you are so interested in sight settings for 25 and 50 yards...
CM


Cm, I am teaching my son to shoot. We started with saftey and proper handling, shot thousands of pellets in the basement into a trap and then sent him out to explore the woods. Shooting 100's of BB'S and pellets on weekends when the weather is good has made him a fine shot for only being 11. He can wack a metal .22 target duck all day off hand. He also shot the target today ,right with my shots, open sights at 100 yrds, I'd say he has a grasp of the proper technique. The majority of his/mine shooting is done with scoped guns at targets,ground hogs, and just fun plinking. I realize that with the current set-up on the Sharps a full picture is a must at any long distance, not hard to do, just different.

I have no real reason for the 25 to 50 yard questions other than I want to hit where I aim. Many deer and varmits are shot at that range and I find it easier to set a site than to try and remeber how far to hold under/over. Here in Pa most deer are killed at 75 yards or less according to the Game Commision, tough to see further in heavy woods. I have mostly archery hunted for deer for the last 20 years but with the kids comming of age I have found myself gun hunting again. I would much rather take the Sharps than a scoped gun.

Those shoots you speak of sure seem like the would be great fun, however, most of my shooting will be done around the farm were ranges will be from behind the barn to 800 yrds.

That's why the questions on the sights and what distance they cover.

[Don McDowell]

Matt those buffalo longrange matches are a hoot to shoot. It's not uncommon to see a family using the same gun , just staggered in different relays. It's really neat to see young fellers about the age of your boy whoopin the crap out of old guys on the score board.:-D

If you ever get the opportunity , you might want to take the family on summer vacation and head for Forsyth Mt. on fathers day weekend for the Quigley shoot, or just prior to labor day weekend the Sagebrush match in Alliance Ne is another fine family event not during schooldays.

[Matt Muir]

Don ,we may just pack up the 5th wheel and do that. Family wants to head west for some sight seeing and spend a few weeks checking out the local hot spots.

[Don McDowell]

Matt you could make a really good time of it I"m thinking. If you hit Baker MT the weekend before fathers day, (take a levergun and 22 along as well) for the Big Hill shoot, then cruise the museum at Ekalaka, then back a couple of hours south and do the Rushmore, Flintsone Village etal Black Hills thing.
Then whip on up to the Quigley park the fifth wheel, and be able to do a drive out from there to Miles City and the Rough Riders Museum, the Little Bighorn Battle Field. Do the Q on Saturday and Sunday, then head back towards the ol barn.

[405]

Matt,
If I'm reading your posts correctly you have a valid reason to get point of aim and point of impact the same at 50 yards. That is a very practical distance to load test or hunt at if you wish. If you can get to 50 then you can get to 100, 200, etc. If your rear sight's lowest setting is 10+ inches high at 100 there is no easy way to get point of aim and impact together at 50-100. Most inaccuracy in a load will show itself at 50-100 yards. All kinds of "sight picture" errors can start at the longer ranges. Then you'll be testing your eyes.... not the load. On a range used by others there is nothing worse than someone calling "Cease Fire" to constantly go down range and manipulate targets at 200, 300 + yards and shooting random patterns or missing the backers entirely!... when everyone else is shooting at 50 or 100. (Well there is one worse and that's the guy with way too much testosterone shooting a ported 30-378 WBY within 50 feet of you on the line!)

Those longer ranges can come later as you test bullets for stability and sight elevation/windage tracking as you learn, mark and "register" the rear sight settings for the different longer ranges. If I take one of my BPCR guns to the range and if wind, weather, lighting conditions aren't perfect or my eyes are blurry that day, etc. I'm wasting my time load testing (or just shooting for that matter) at the longer ranges-- simple as that.

You asked about the MVA vernier tang and the shorter ranges. I think most vernier tangs will go low enough to give point blank zero.... where the "sight line" is parallel to "bore line" with a normal height front globe.

You also asked about removing the rear barrel sight? Interesting if you watch the Quigley movie closely you'll see Quigley using one of the "movie" guns (functional Shilohs) where the rear barrel sight has been partially removed... leaving the base attached. That is usually enough to clear the way to use the lower sight settings on the tang sight. I just remove the whole rear sight assembly then plug the front screw hole with a plug screw and put a dovetail blank in the open dovetail. I think Shiloh has those parts available. Just seems to "clean up" the lines of the gun by doing that.
Good shootin'

[MT Gianni]

Matt you could make a really good time of it I"m thinking. If you hit Baker MT the weekend before fathers day, (take a levergun and 22 along as well) for the Big Hill shoot, then cruise the museum at Ekalaka, then back a couple of hours south and do the Rushmore, Flintsone Village etal Black Hills thing.
Then whip on up to the Quigley park the fifth wheel, and be able to do a drive out from there to Miles City and the Rough Riders Museum, the Little Bighorn Battle Field. Do the Q on Saturday and Sunday, then head back towards the ol barn.

Don't forget Devil's Tower. I far prefer it to the Custer Btlefld. Gianni

[Don McDowell]

Mt, yup if he went from Ekalaka to Alazada, then to Hulett, they'ld get to see the big rock. They could then go on over to Ranch A on Sand Creek , park the 5th wheel there, and do the black hills thing from there,before moving back up to Al Lee's place.

Matt I got to wondering if you juiced that load of 3031 up to the long time recommended charge of 39 grs with that 405 bullet, the added 200 fps or so might just put poa right at the sights at 100?

405 here's a couple of examples why load developement at 50 yds is folly, unless that's about all the further you ever plan to shoot with a BPCR.
The Lee 500 3r bullet shoots nice tight little clover leafs at 50 and 100 yds, but put it at 450 and it starts to tumble, by the time you get to 650 they won't stay in a 6ft square.
The Lyman 410680 bullet (385 gr pointy bugger) shoots great in a 40-65 at 100 , put it to 200 in a 10 mph cross wind and its starts opening groups pretty wide, move to 300 with the same wind and the groups get extra large, and most of the bullet holes are badly lopsided.
Neither example will ever show up in a million rounds fired at 50 yds.
If a person is going to compete seriously with a BPCR not shooting on any day that isn't exactly perfect is going to be reason to loose alot of matches. Never shot a relay yet when everything was just exactly perfect with the sun, wind, rain, fog, and or snow. It's important to shoot in varing conditions so you get some sort of idea what's going to happen to your bullet once it gets past 1 handed handgun plinking range.

[Scrounger]

Don't forget Devil's Tower. I far prefer it to the Custer Btlefld. Gianni

Is Richard Dreyfuss still there?

[405]

Mt, yup if he went from Ekalaka to Alazada, then to Hulett, they'ld get to see the big rock. They could then go on over to Ranch A on Sand Creek , park the 5th wheel there, and do the black hills thing from there,before moving back up to Al Lee's place.

Matt I got to wondering if you juiced that load of 3031 up to the long time recommended charge of 39 grs with that 405 bullet, the added 200 fps or so might just put poa right at the sights at 100?

405 here's a couple of examples why load developement at 50 yds is folly, unless that's about all the further you ever plan to shoot with a BPCR.
The Lee 500 3r bullet shoots nice tight little clover leafs at 50 and 100 yds, but put it at 450 and it starts to tumble, by the time you get to 650 they won't stay in a 6ft square.
The Lyman 410680 bullet (385 gr pointy bugger) shoots great in a 40-65 at 100 , put it to 200 in a 10 mph cross wind and its starts opening groups pretty wide, move to 300 with the same wind and the groups get extra large, and most of the bullet holes are badly lopsided.
Neither example will ever show up in a million rounds fired at 50 yds.
If a person is going to compete seriously with a BPCR not shooting on any day that isn't exactly perfect is going to be reason to loose alot of matches. Never shot a relay yet when everything was just exactly perfect with the sun, wind, rain, fog, and or snow. It's important to shoot in varing conditions so you get some sort of idea what's going to happen to your bullet once it gets past 1 handed handgun plinking range.

D McD. You need to read total content of posts in chronological order. I have to agree to disagree about how to guide a first timer's use of the Sharps.

405 Quote from previous post in this thread: "Those longer ranges can come later as you test bullets for stability and sight elevation/windage tracking as you learn, mark and "register" the rear sight settings for the different longer ranges."

Question... How in the world can someone become familiar with a rifle much less load test in bad conditions? A good foundation first.... then during different or bad conditions at the longer ranges, WITH A KNOWN ACCURATE STABLE LOAD in a CORRECTLY SIGHTED IN RIFLE, shoot to learn what the different conditions do to the bullet in flight and POI on target.... If that thinking is folly, then I'll continue the folly :mrgreen:

What seems folly to me is taking a load that may or may not be accurate, or stable at distance with a gun that may or may not be sighted in well or where the sights don't give the best chance at accuracy and blasting away at longer ranges during gusty or bad conditions.... then trying to figure out what is going on????

[Matt Muir]

405, thanks for the reply. I'm glad the Vernier sights whould go low enough for point blank. I will be getting dove tail plug as well.

Mt Gianni. Don , Scrounger, those places sound great. I will start plugging them in to the GPS now.

Don, I don't test loads at under 100 as a general rule. I only use 50 to get on paper with a new scope, then jump to the 100.

I have loaded rifles for years and our method was always test loads until you get as close to 1 hole at 100 as you can, 1/4 to 3/8 was pretty close so then went to 200. If all was good there we jumped to 300. Then we went to the farm and shot 4 and 500 yrds.

I started low on the powder charges out of force of habit. We always shot then checked for flattened primers the general stuff. The loads I loaded so far have all behaved great so I will start the bump up when I get a new sight. Our club only has a 300 yrd range for long distance, looks like I will need to build a bench for the house.

[Don McDowell]

Matt I have no doubt that you'll do well with your endeavors with that rifle.:drinks:
Let me know if decide to make the trip out this way.