Can they still be live

[hungryhuntergirl]

A friend of mine posted this on another site...thought yall might know:

I've got a question about some rounds that I got from a chest in my Great Grandfather's house, years ago. They are various rifle and pistol rounds that have been fired (have rifling marks) and I assume were caught or collected underwater. Seems like I remember hearing something when I was 4 or 5 that he was a "Frogman", so I assume they are from WW1.

I guess my question is:

1. Are they valuable?

2. Is there a possibility that the rifle rounds could be live?

Some had not been shot and that concerned him.

[nicholst55]

Cartridges that have not been fired from WWI are still very live and very deadly. Treat them as such. They may not function well, as powders and primers do deteriorate over the decades, but they can still fire and they can still kill.

[mroliver77]

As nicholst states yes than for sur can be live yet. PACO Kelly has an article about using some 45-70 rounds from the 1870's I believe to shoot and kill a bear. Valuable, mebbe, interesting, heck yes. I love stuff like that. It would be neat to know the story behind them. Most all military rounds have a date on them. Dont shine them up though.
J

[KYCaster]

A friend of mine posted this on another site...thought yall might know:

I've got a question about some rounds that I got from a chest in my Great Grandfather's house, years ago. They are various rifle and pistol rounds that have been fired (have rifling marks) and I assume were caught or collected underwater. Seems like I remember hearing something when I was 4 or 5 that he was a "Frogman", so I assume they are from WW1.

I guess my question is:

1. Are they valuable?

2. Is there a possibility that the rifle rounds could be live?

Some had not been shot and that concerned him.


Hunter Girl: I'll try to answer your questions, but please understand that I'll also make some feeble attempts to inject a little humor at your (friend's) expense. Please try to take this in the spirit that it's given. (I can't help it...it's just the way I am)

Does your friend know the difference between "round" and "bullet"?

Round = cartridge = case, primer, powder, bullet...ready to shoot.

Bullet = projectile = chunk of lead/copper/steel/etc. Can be inserted into case with primer, powder to make a "round". Since these have rifleing marks they obviously have already been fired through a barrel.

"Are they valuable?"...Unless there is something really unusual about them...probably not. Cartridges in common use during WWI (30-06,45ACP, 9mm Luger) are still in common use today.

"Is there a possibility the rifle rounds could still be live? Some had not been shot and that concerned him." Well, yes...even locked in a trunk since WWI you have to assume that any complete "round" is still live. (because it probably is) That doesn't mean they'll escape from the trunk in the middle of the night and terrorize the neighborhood.

If he doesn't want any live rounds lurking about, then he should just shoot them. If he's not up to the task, then you could shoot them for him. Just make sure you hit them in a vital spot. (the primer)

Jerry

[grumpy one]

Hunter Girl: I'll try to answer your questions, but please understand that I'll also make some feeble attempts to inject a little humor at your (friend's) expense. Please try to take this in the spirit that it's given. (I can't help it...it's just the way I am)

If he doesn't want any live rounds lurking about, then he should just shoot them. If he's not up to the task, then you could shoot them for him. Just make sure you hit them in a vital spot. (the primer)

Jerry

Jerry, I'm a notably humourless guy I guess, or I wouldn't have ended up with this listname, but it worries me that some new or non-shooter might take you seriously. For the benefit of anyone who doesn't already know this, firing at the primer of a live centerfire round, especially at close range, would be really dumb: likely to lead to a faceful of pieces of brass cartridge case if the targeted round fired.

There, now I feel better. Any time you need someone to urinate on your jokes, Jerry, feel free to call on me.

[2muchstuf]

Tryed to shoot some old .32 shorts back before I knew any better. bullets got stuck in the bore. They were a bugger to get out.

[waksupi]

Jerry, I'm a notably humourless guy I guess, or I wouldn't have ended up with this listname, but it worries me that some new or non-shooter might take you seriously. For the benefit of anyone who doesn't already know this, firing at the primer of a live centerfire round, especially at close range, would be really dumb: likely to lead to a faceful of pieces of brass cartridge case if the targeted round fired.

There, now I feel better. Any time you need someone to urinate on your jokes, Jerry, feel free to call on me.


I just can't get too worked up about someone shooting at a primer on a center fire cartridge. I know one fellow who managed to set off a .45-90 in his hand with no damage. Another who sets off 12 bore shotgun shells intentionally in his hand, although I admit it isn't all that smart, just from the ******* prospective.
I believe it was P.O. Ackley who did the experiments with uncontained cartidges being fired. Electricaly detonated, within a small box, sitting on a table top. No part of the components penetrated, or left the confines of the box. I have seen ammo in fires more than once, and aside from an interesting bang, no big deal.
As long as you don't have the cartidge in a chamber and barrel, go ahead and pop off as many as you want. There will be no harm done.

[WineMan]

In Hatchers's notebook he did the electric welder and box routine to show that there is little danger from a cartridge set off outside of a chamber. Not zero danger but not the usual story that a cartridge in someones pocket detonated by impact and "blew his head off". Usually the answer was carelessness with a loaded firearm and it was convenient to blame some other device besides the firearm itself.

Wineman

[KYCaster]

Some people just don't appreciate a good joke...guess I need to keep my day job and forget about the comedy club circuit.

Have a nice day...night...life...whatever...

Jerry

[mroliver77]

When I was a kid I stuck a 12 gauge shell in a crab hole and shot it with a BB un. The hole confined the shell quite well and the case was propelled back at me an hit me right on the knuckle. I thought it was broke for a couple weeks. .22 LR shells will propell the case out of a fire fairly fast.
J

[FWAddit]

Primers can come blasting out of their pockets fast enought to do serious damage. I had several 8mm military cases from which I had pulled the bullets and dumped the powder because the primers had misfired. The priming compound was still in them. Just to enjoy the fireworks, I held the cartridge bases, pointed in a safe direction, up to a flame from a propane torch till they blew. The primers would blast out with a loud sharp supersonic crack, which I assumed was just the characteristic sound of the explosive compound. One primer struck the rim of the torch nozzle. It broke a quarter-inch notch out of it.

I stopped doing that.

[Freightman]

I had some old 8MM berdan cases Turk with split necke '47 I think, well I was zeroing in a BB gun to shoot tree rats wiith. I set them on a five gallon bucket and backed off 25' and proceeded to se if I could hit the primer with a BB wel I did and said boy this is fun. Set off several more and was feeling like Davey Crockett or someone hit another and sting and then hurt on my shin bone, mind you I do not wear shorts and blue jeans are heavy, but at 25' the primer came out hit me through the jeans and broght blood. Sure glad I hadn't set them at head height! do not do this as it hurts.

[hungryhuntergirl]

Thanks guys, i will let him know and I appreciate the info!!

[TxGunfighter]

I would worry more about the primers than the powder....
Handle carefully

[1Shirt]

Hungry, "Frogmen were WWII, predecessors of today's Navy Seals. Good folks. I have shot a fair amount of WWII, and Korean War vintage from a number of countries. Have had some misfires, and some that sounded a bit limp, but maybe I have just been lucky.
1Shirt!

[jonk]

If they were fired into the water, they probably would not be in good enough shape to re-insert into a case. If they just splashed in, after firing, i.e. flew several hundred yards first, they MIGHT be.

Shake them. See if you hear powder inside. See if the primer is dimpled (i.e. fired). THat should tell you which ones are live.

[Saint]

I heard a great true story about a man that broke into the house of a WWII veteran and stole his war sidearm from a display case and loaded some of the same bullets that were also WWII vintage. The man caught him in the house and he tried to shoot him but when he pulled the trigger the gun did not fire so he decided to pull the good ol Loony Tunes look down the barrel and capped himself in the head. Apparently the primers had deteriorated enough that they burned really slowly and he broke one of the biggest rules of firearm safety.

[randyrat]

Caution...... I have also shot some slow detentation rds.. if you shoot them and no bang wait a minite then unload,check barrel for clearance.***** Keep muzzle pointed in safe direction******. This is something i teach my kids over and over, because it may only happen once in a life time. It can be a real danger at the range. This may be repetitive to most. I call it a deadly hang fire then my kids pay more attention to it.

[snuffy]

I remember back in the '50's, dad sent for 3 30-40 krags and one 03-a3 from the NRA. He also bought a buttload of WW-1 ammo for the krags. The whole bill came to $15.00! But he had to save his lunch money for a month to afford it!

Anyway, the ammo for the krags, was some miserable stuff! Klick--bang! Some was klick------no bang! The krags were for my brothers to hunt Wis. deer with. Of course the mil ammo was for practice and sighting in, Rem coreloct 180's were the hunting fodder. Dad just said, go shoot that stuff up, being careful to keep the barrel pointed downrange, as Randyrat said.

Dad kept the 03-a3, it eventually was completely sporterized including a scope. I got one of the krags from my brother last year, another brother got the Springfield after dad died in '89.

[StrawHat]

It doesn't happen much any more but when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s, it wasn't unheard of for someones Civil War musket to be found loaded. Most of them fired with the old cap. Pop was always going to farms for groundhogs and made it a point to ask about muskets.

Amazing how many folks figured that Grandad, (Great grandad, GGGgran) etc put the thing away unloaded. I watched as Pop fired three.

I guess when it takes 30 seconds or so to load, you want it ready to go!

[Tom W.]

Amazing that people would tell about the fun things thst we've done when we thought we were having fun, and not thinking about the danger.....I've done it, too......

[Bob Krack]

A friend of mine posted this on another site...thought yall might know:

I've got a question about some rounds that I got from a chest in my Great Grandfather's house, years ago. They are various rifle and pistol rounds that have been fired (have rifling marks) and I assume were caught or collected underwater. Seems like I remember hearing something when I was 4 or 5 that he was a "Frogman", so I assume they are from WW1.

I guess my question is:

1. Are they valuable?

2. Is there a possibility that the rifle rounds could be live?

Some had not been shot and that concerned him.

The thing that kinda confuses me is >"They are various rifle and pistol rounds that have been fired (have rifling marks) and I assume were caught or collected underwater."<

If they have Rifling marks, they have been fired and are just the projectiles, right?

Still loaded full cartridges are just as dangerous as new full cartridges.

Bob

[DLCTEX]

If the rounds were fired in a gun underwater, the bullets would be pristine except for rifling marks. It's been done a lot including by site member Blackrifle shooter. When he was 10 our house burned and my reloading room went up in flames. The local firemen wanted to know what was popping and freaked when he said "ammo". He disdainfully said it wasn't dangerous unless in a gun. Are you smarter than a 10 yr. old?

[beagle]

Guess I'll tell my primer story. A next door neighbor's kid was messing with a shotgun shell and decided he'd set it off. He took about a 12" section of galvanized pipe and drove it about 3" in the ground and slipped the 12 guage shell in it. He then built a small wood fire around the pipe and stood back. After the small pieces of wood burned down to coals and nothing happened , he figured it wouldn't go so he walked over to it and looked at it. For some reason, he decided to spit on the end of the shell sticking up. You guessed it..... At that instant the shell cooked off and the primer popped out and went in under the skin right over his eye. After a trip to the doctor and a SAW (that's severe xxx whipping) he swore off further experiments. He was lucky./beagle

[Kraschenbirn]

Back in the mid-70's, college friend worked summers as a carpenter's helper for a contractor specializing in restoration work. During renovation work on an ante bellum farm house in western Virginia, the crew discoverered four 1842 Harper's Ferry Muskets concealed inside a wall. Guns were greased and wrapped in oilskin but all were loaded. Apparently, these weren't the first firearms 'discovered' on a job, 'cause, after calling the boss, the foreman snagged 'em up and took 'em straight to a local gunsmith who pulled the charges. Dunno what happened to the guns but, from my buddy's pics (35mm prints), they were in beautiful condition.

Bill

[303Guy]

Mythbusters did a cartridge cook-off test in an oven and some of the cases (rifle) did some damage to the glass of the door. I don't recall there being any penetration. It may have been 30-06 ammo they were testing.

[popper]

Standard non-wartime misfire rules - find the least liked guy, after 1/2 hr. he gets to open the breech, unload the round and dispose of it.

[alamogunr]

Another dumb stunt story: Back in the mid to late '50's I had a Remington semi-auto .22 rimfire. I got the bright idea to make it full auto. I backed off the recoil spring a little at a time without success. One more turn of the screw and the spring allowed the bolt to start back before the bullet had cleared the case/chamber(?). I got a facefull of gas and unburned powder, at least as much as a .22 can generate. This was before I wore glasses. It took a while before I could see anything but a blur. I found the case. The side was blown out just above the rim. That was the end of uninformed experimentation.

[blackthorn]

Quote "Caution...... I have also shot some slow detentation rds.. if you shoot them and no bang wait a minite then unload,check barrel for clearance.***** Keep muzzle pointed in safe direction******. This is something i teach my kids over and over, because it may only happen once in a life time. It can be a real danger at the range. This may be repetitive to most. I call it a deadly hang fire then my kids pay more attention to it."

When I was in cadets, we were told that if we got a failure to fire we were to wait three full minutes before opening the bolt.

[45-70 Chevroner]

She said all the slugs had rifling and that they were recovered from under water. She also said they were pistol and rifle (rounds) and using the term rounds would be incorrect as they are slugs. The only slugs she has that could be a problem is if some of the rifle rounds are 30 caliber and could be machine gun slugs and have phosperous in them and even then the phosperous would have burned up before landing in the water. I really think that there is a non problem here.

[3006guns]

Having been in this hobby for quite a few years, it still amazes me when "non shooting" folks unearth a few cartridges and treat them like a bomb. The only real danger in an old cartridge is that it's probably going to shoot, have a hangfire or not shoot at all. I've pulled the bullets on military stuff that was badly corroded and the powder looked like mush. But treating them like nitroglycerin? C'mon now.

There's only ONE military rifle round that scares me. The Japanese fielded a 7.7mm explosive bullet in WWII and they ARE hazardous, containing a small amount of PETN or TNT, I don't remember which. If you ever come across a Jap round with a purple bullet, beware. This is one time you can actually call the bomb squad and be justified.

That's not a casual attitude, just experience. If the "non shooter" is genuinely terrified of these "lethal explosives"....call the cops and make it their problem. Better yet, find a reloader in your community that might want the components or ask him to dispose of them.

I almost hate to admit to this, but a number of years ago I got a call from an elderly lady who's husband had passed away. She found a "large amount" of military explosives on a shelf on the back porch and didn't know what to do. I drove over immediately to assess the situation and found a sealed "tuna can" of WWII M2 ball. I assured her there was no danger but she insisted that I take it for disposal before it blew the entire porch off the house.

It all shot beautifully............:bigsmyl2:

[Wayne Smith]

Another dumb stunt story: Back in the mid to late '50's I had a Remington semi-auto .22 rimfire. I got the bright idea to make it full auto. I backed off the recoil spring a little at a time without success. One more turn of the screw and the spring allowed the bolt to start back before the bullet had cleared the case/chamber(?). I got a facefull of gas and unburned powder, at least as much as a .22 can generate. This was before I wore glasses. It took a while before I could see anything but a blur. I found the case. The side was blown out just above the rim. That was the end of uninformed experimentation.

I assume you now know that is NOT how you create a full auto??!!

[Ron.D]

I'd never recommend that someone set off a round, uncontained, near people. Back in the 60's a friend thought he'd have some fun and set off a round. The primer blew back and hit him in the thumb nail. We performed amature surgery by drilling a small hole in his thumnail to relieve the blood pressure and a couple weeks later he lost the nail. I sure wouldn't want to be hit in the head by one. Ron.D

[alamogunr]

I assume you now know that is NOT how you create a full auto??!!

As a 15 or 16 yr old, I didn't know. Didn't take long to find out how NOT to do it. It was several years before I got curious enough to read about full auto.

[bruce drake]

Attached is a picture diagramming the composition of the various 7.7mm Arisaka bullets from WWII.

very rare but still dangerous are the HE rounds.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_5254f282c1f2bc05.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3699)

[MtGun44]

He did say that all the "rounds" were FIRED and have rifling marks, so some of the comments
about loaded rounds are off base.

If we are talking just about US projectiles here and unless they are larger than .50
cal, I'm fairly sure they won't be explosive, although there are API that in .30 cal and .50
cal that make quite a pop, but I think they are really hard to set off. HMM - was there
a HE .50 cal round - a blue tip? Dim memory just boiled up, but maybe wrong.

Of course, the HE Arisaka rounds mentioned by Bruce would be bad to hammer on. And
even if the odds are strongly in your favor, I suppose being safe is being smart.

In VA, every so often somebody manages to detonate a Civil War cannonball, people
have died when a cannonball that had been a family heirloom for many decades rolled
off of a table onto a concrete floor.

Bill

[BAGTIC]

I once burned an old shed that had some questionable ammo scattered inside it. The result was like a popcorn party. The brass was blown about but the bullets stayed more or less where they were as the cases 'backed off them'. Surprisingly the most spectacular displays were were a lot of small medicine bottles. The screw on caps held tight long enough for moisture inside to turn to steam. Some created rather loud pops, louder than the ammo, when the tops gave way and the bottles flew threw the air with a smoke trail for 100 feet or so.

[MikeS]

Not really related, but this thread brought up this memory: Years ago my father ran a Jr Rifle team. The 50' range (.22's only) was located in the basement of the local high school (this should tell you how long ago this is!), and they had just gotten new rifles (pretty sure they were Mossberg single shot .22 bolt actions), and had traded in most of the old rifles (also some brand of .22 single shot bolt guns), except for one the dealer didn't want, as he said the barrel was badly damaged, and so he couldn't sell it. My father made that rifle into a training aid. He removed the extractor from the rifle, and filed down the sear to the point that it would fire just by dropping the rifle on it's butt from a distance of 12 - 15". My father would load a blank round into the rifle before the safety lesson, then would show the students that the rifle was unloaded by opening the bolt, letting the students see that the bolt was open, then he would close the bolt, and ask them if they were sure the rifle was 'safe'. Of course they would all say yes, he had opened the bolt, and nothing came out, so it had to be safe, at which point my father would drop the rifle to the ground (not actually DROP, more like let it slide thru his hand, so he always had control over where the muzzle was pointed), and of course the blank would go BANG, and that lesson to always check the chamber was never forgotten by those kids! I don't know if this was something that my father thought up, or if it was from the NRA manual (which he had, and read, but fashioned his lessons more loosely around the book than I would have liked)

[MikeS]

I just can't get too worked up about someone shooting at a primer on a center fire cartridge. I know one fellow who managed to set off a .45-90 in his hand with no damage. Another who sets off 12 bore shotgun shells intentionally in his hand, although I admit it isn't all that smart, just from the ******* prospective.
I believe it was P.O. Ackley who did the experiments with uncontained cartidges being fired. Electricaly detonated, within a small box, sitting on a table top. No part of the components penetrated, or left the confines of the box. I have seen ammo in fires more than once, and aside from an interesting bang, no big deal.
As long as you don't have the cartidge in a chamber and barrel, go ahead and pop off as many as you want. There will be no harm done.

Well, if it's fairly safe to fire off a cartridge, as long as it's not contained, would it also stand to logic that a loaded cartridge with a high primer can have the primer seated deeper by using a Lee hand primer (where nothing is around the cartridge case, other than a shellholder at the base)?

A while ago I had loaded some 45ACP cartridges with most of the primers slightly high, and I seated them deeper using a Lee priming tool, but I was nervous the whole time, and did it underneath a piece of plexiglass in case a round did go off! None did, and they shot just fine once the primers were seated to a more proper depth!

[rogn]

Ill confirm the general concensus that the primer is the most dangerous component of unsupported ammo. Once a long time ago a friend and I were burning some trash with some old "useless" ammo in it. One round ignited and the primer, a small pistol magnum exited the primer pocket, went thru my buddy's shirt and imbedded it in his left pectoral. Deciding that the above mentioned SAW would be worse than tool shed surgery(in both our cases), I undertook the , movie tutorialed, surgery on my not anesthetized friend. I got the primer out , fortunately not too deeply imbedded, with the flame sterilized pocket knife, and dosed it up with mercurochrome and we went on our way. I guess our being coconspirators kept my fumbling attempts at surgery from breaking up our friendship. Yup, primers is dangerous.

[zuke]

Those primer's will also be corrosive.

[mjwcaster]

Ok I finally had to register since I could actually add something to a thread.
When I was much younger (8-10ish) I had found a few 12 gauge hulls while on a hike with cub scouts.
One day I got bored and had a brilliant idea. I took one of the hulls and filled it up with rolls of caps from my cap gun. Then took some cotton batting and used it to plug the end.
To set it off I hit it with a 10 lb sledge.
Got quite a bang and a nice mark on the center of my forehead when the spent primer came flying out of the shell and hit me. Lucky I didn't lose and eye.
To prove that I never really got any smarter, many years later in my later 20's I was cleaning up around the reloading bench. Had a cup with powder and primers in it.
I knew the powder would just burn up, no explosion and I figured the primers couldn't do much so I tossed them in the campfire out back.
Those primers were singing out over the trees for the next couple of hours, bouncing off the house and flying off to who knows where.
Kind of ruined the fire for the night as I wouldn't let anyone out back, as it would seem to be all clear and then another straggler would pop off.
Those things were flying with some force.
Another thing that I won't do again.
Unfortunately I still keep inventing stupid things to do, and probably will until someone spreads my ashes.
Matt

[leadman]

The OP can just give the rounds, bullets, etc. to the police department and they will take care of them safely.

Cartidges in metal ammo boxes can and have sent bullets flying when in a fire. There was a fire in a house several years ago here in Az. that made the evening news. The cartridges going off and the whine of bullets and whatever could be heard on tv. Bullets were actually found a ways from the house.

IIRC Loyd Smallee's fire several years ago sent things sailing also.