Bubba ruined a good one

[GOPHER SLAYER]

It didn't matter to Bubba that this trapdoor was made the year the 45-70 was introduced and that it was in excellent condition, he just had to sporterize it. That was the word used in the 1960s when all those '03s were given similar treatment. It belongs to a friend of mine. He asked me to load some black powder rounds and give it a try. I plan to take it to the range tomorrow. I should also point out that the bore on this rifle looks like a mirror. I was only able to upload one picture so I will drop off and try again.

[elk hunter]

One has to remember that at the time trapdoors, springfields, enfields etc. were like the mosins today, plentiful, cheap and under appreciated for what they represent, history.

[Springfield]

If sporterizing it got someone to go out and use it, then it wasn't ruined. If every TD ever made was still around and in perfect shape then they would still be worth very little. Every one that gets ruined makes my original that much more valuable. Except that I would never sell mine.

[Moonie]

If sporterizing it got someone to go out and use it, then it wasn't ruined. If every TD ever made was still around and in perfect shape then they would still be worth very little. Every one that gets ruined makes my original that much more valuable. Except that I would never sell mine.

Praying it doesn't get sold for what you told your wife it cost... :kidding:

[Springfield]

I traded a set of my custom made leather holsters and a belt for it. He had a set of 14" barrelled Ruger Single Sixes in 32 mag. Two toned holsters fully laced up the back. I have a list of all my guns and what I feel current value is. My wife no longer asks what I pay for our guns.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/mwhyte123/P1000636.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/mwhyte123/media/P1000636.jpg.html)

[John Allen]

The trapdoors are my favorite rifle. I have a "few" and would not part with any of them.

[Sur-shot]

It could be that your buddy's trap door was a Bannermans special. They ruined more new / old military guns than anyone I can think of. My gun show buddy told me he went into the store when he was a young man, he was 75, at the time of the telling. Said they had trap doors stacked on the floor, in 10x10 layers 6 ft deep. They had all manner of "conversions" for sporting from shotguns to short barrel sporting rifles. They had a staff that did nothing but make old stuff "better." The conversation started because I had a 63 Springfield that someone had bored out to a smooth bore, he said it was probably a Bannermans special.
Ed

[nagantguy]

I know someone who has a Bannerman's trapdoor converted to 20 gauge, something else neat about it is on the left side of the receiver it says U.S. expeditionary force. He, my uncle also has a large bowie knife with the blade reworked to look symitar like that also has the same markings. Don't know if those conversations were done by Bannerman's or done by the government for what ever and where ever that expaditioary force was or what they were doing. He got the stuff from a friend who.said it was from Bannerman's in the 60's.

[M-Tecs]

It didn't matter to Bubba that this trapdoor was made the year the 45-70 was introduced and that it was in excellent condition, he just had to sporterize it. That was the word used in the 1960s when all those '03s were given similar treatment. It belongs to a friend of mine. He asked me to load some black powder rounds and give it a try. I plan to take it to the range tomorrow. I should also point out that the bore on this rifle looks like a mirror. I was only able to upload one picture so I will drop off and try again.


Looks to be a nice cut down rifle. Still should be a great shooter. Bore normally runs .460 to .463 on them. Sometimes larger.

Since only 5 rifles where manufactured in 1873 it is truely a shame if this is one of them. http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/production.html

The Buffington rear sight didn't come out until 1884.

I prefer the carbines or the officer models over the rifles. I have four cut downs that get shot a lot. If they were real carbines (due to the value) they probable would never get shot or owned by me.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I took the trapdoor to the range today and while it was fun to shoot the front sight is about the size of a phonograph needle and made it impossible to hit anything, at least for these old eyes. I did spend a lot of time letting people look at it. One fellow took several pictures of it. I don't see how troopers ever hit anything with it. The trigger pull must be between 20-30 pounds. GOA, I don't know about the sights on the rifle or the barrel for that matter but the action was definitely made in 1873 and is so marked.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I forgot to mention that if you read my second post on this thread you can read the serial #.

[M-Tecs]

Picture #2 shows Model # 1873 but no serial #. The 1873 breech block was used until 1887 than it was stamped 1884 http://trapdoorcollector.com/m84.html

If the Buffington sight and the Model 1873 breech block are original to the gun the serial # should reflect a manufacture date of 1885 - 1887.

The early production used high arch breech blocks narrow recievers. Pics below.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?118114-Trapdoor-1873-question

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?160827-Trapdoor-question

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/TrapdoorBlocks.html

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/FAQ.html

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Single%20Shot%20Cartridge%20Rifles/U.S.%20SPRINGFIELD%20TRAPDOOR%20RIFLE/U.S.%20SPRINGFIELD%20TRAPDOOR%20RIFLE.htm

Model 1884 Rifle

The designation, Model 1884, is somewhat nebulous. The changes that are associated with the model all occurred before or after 1884. For example, the trigger associated with the model is serrated, that change occurred in 1883. Likewise, the Buffington rear sight was not perfected for the gun until 1885. Also, the breech block which is dated "1884" did not appear on guns until 1887. So, there were no obvious changes that occurred with the beginning of 1884. However, the Buffington rear sight is the one item that collectors associate with the model. It should be said that marksmen found the sight to be excellent, but troops found it to be an obstruction.

[seaboltm]

Looks nicely done. Doubt "bubba" got that one. Looks like someone knew what they were doing.

[scattershot]

You probably already know this, but there's a fourth cocking notch. Until I found that, I was experiencing the 30# trigger, too.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I know almost nothing about Trapdoors but this one only has three cocking notches. I think it has a four grove barrel but I am not sure. All these variations are giving me a headache.

[StrawHat]

...I think it has a four grove barrel but I am not sure...

If the barrel is original to the rifle, it should have three grooves.

Studying trapdoors is a lot of fun, each time I think I know something, I find a source that disproves it. Or another one that proves it.

[Tatume]

There is history after 1873 too. This is a piece of mid-20th century history, when people didn't have much money but surplus military rifles were available cheap. I would be pleased to own and shoot it.

[bedbugbilly]

To make some of you younger guys feel worse about chopped up 45/70s - I have a 45/70 barrel that came off of "Bannerman's Island" - it came out of one of the crumbling cement piers - there were so many of those surplus rifles at one time that the barrels were used for re-rod when the piers were built. It was given to me by a friend from NY who visited the island and "liberated" a couple of them as "souvenirs". Needless to say, it is no longer "shootable" but I still hang on to the rusted old relic as it is a neat piece of history.

elk hunter got it right . . . in years to come, another generation will make the same comments about the sporterizing that is being done on the milsurps of today . . . not a whole lot different than the what is now "vintage" S & Ws M & Ps that were chopped off to make snubbies or chrome plated to "make 'em look pretty".

Enjoy that 45/70 as it looks like it will be a good shooter! Nice set of leather as well . . . very well done!

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I tried to take pictures of this rifles bore and they are not bad but they don't show just how shiny it is. The serial # by the way is 3186XX , which if the chart posted earlier is correct it would indicate a mfg date in the mid to late 1880s.

[Scharfschuetze]

Congrats on getting what should be a fun rifle to shoot! Learning about the history of these rifles and carbines is all the more fun when you actually own one.

The late 1880s manufacture date would explain the Buffington sight of 1884 as well as the short wrist stock adopted in 1879. I imagine that it also has the low arch breech block too. The three position (or click) tumbler you mention was also adopted with the modifications of 1879.

These rifles are lots of fun and when I'm back home in Wyoming I shoot mine out past 900 or a 1,000 yards at the LVSA range or out on the high desert with excellent results using loads (both black powder and smokeless) that replicate the original 45/70/405 grain government load.

It's common for Trapdoors with original front sights to shoot very high with smokeless powder until a higher front sight is installed.

For further reading on the Trapdoor, a good books is:

Trapdoor Springfield
M.D. Waite and B.D. Ernst
The Gun Room Press

For loading the 45/70 round (as originally produced) as well as info on sights and what not:

Loading Cartridges for Original 45-70 Springfield
J.S. and Pat Wolf
Wolf's Western Traders

[GOPHER SLAYER]

SS, thanks for the info. I am going to jump on it right away.

[opos]

Interesting thread..I'm 77 and worked in a gun shop in Fort Collins Colorado while going to college from 1955 to 1959. Those were the days of "sporter milsurps" of all sorts...at one point there was a "sale" of beautiful O3A3's for $19 through the American Rifleman Magazine...we all had our family members order with a minimum NRA membership (just a few bucks as I recall) and we all had a basement full of 03A3's, 1917 Enfields and 98 Mausers...at that time we bought things like 30-40's for something like $10 or so and had a devil of a time selling them because the rumor was "you can blow the loading door off them" nobody would even consider a 303 Enfield for anything..91 and 95 mausers were "dangerous" so were not bought or sold...Model 97 Winchesters were bought for about $20 and we sold them for $35 or so...I hunted with a 97 for years..my deer and elk rifle was a sporterized Winchester 1917 Enfield with a Douglas barrel, a Fagen stock and a timney trigger...Weaver mount and a 4x weaver scope..think the whole deal set me back about $75.

Whoever said they were like the Mosin's of today is right...we had stacks of milsurp rifles in all stages of repair from new original to cut up, cut down and downright butchered...but they all shot deer and elk...if I wouldn't have had the Enfield and the 97 we probably wouldn't have eaten near as well as we did...we lived on venison, antelope, elk, ducks, geese and pheasants....it was a wonderful time.

I still collect "high end sporters" from that era...I have a couple of 98 Mausers and a couple of 1917 Winchester Enfields that are works of art...beautiful hand checkered stocks..mirror finish blue black bluing, etc....I don't hunt any more but when I can pickup a beautiful rifle like those for a couple or three hundred bucks and just enjoy a day at the range with them...I grab them...I'd not cut up anything in original condition any more...I still don't have a 30-40, original or sporterized.. (old fear of blowing the door off I guess).

Don't be too harsh on us...I am an antique engine collector and restorer (mechanical only) and when I see 100 year old engines that worked all their lives caked in rust and grime..I cringe when I see the ones folks "cosmeticlly restore" and do hi polish paint and plating...but at least the fancy ones are not just rusting in a barn or hidden in a garage..they get shown and used..much like the "fancy deer rifles" of the '60's.

[Lead Fred]

That red headed step child can live in my safe any time.

Id not ever do that to one, but would not kick it out of bed for eating crackers

[scattershot]

I know almost nothing about Trapdoors but this one only has three cocking notches. I think it has a four grove barrel but I am not sure. All these variations are giving me a headache.


Sorry, I should have said four hammer positions, including full down. Sorry for the confusion. Mine will fire from the loading notch, and as you said it's about a 30# pull. Seems like it, anyway.

[Scharfschuetze]

The original tumbler for the 1873 rifles/carbines was a two position affair: loading and full cock positions. About 1879, the three position tumbler (four if you count the fully down position) came into use. It had a safety notch, loading notch and the final full cock. Trapdoor trigger pull weights shouldn't be anywhere near 30 pounds. I've never weighed mine, but I would guess all of mine are in the neighborhood of six or seven pounds.

The trigger, tumbler and hammer design is basically the same design used in most of the muzzle loading rifles used by the US Army prior to the adoption of the Allin system of breech loading rifles. In fact, the 50 calibre Models of 1865, 1866, 1868 and 1870 actually used refurbished parts from the Model 1863 rifled musket. With the exception of the three position tumbler after 1878, the 1873, 1884 and 1888 rifles and carbines just used newly manufactured parts of the same design as the last issued muzzle loader of the Army, the Model of 1863.

As far as rifling goes, virtually all issue Trapdoors had three groove rifling, virtually the same design (other than dimensions) as in the preceding muzzle loading muskets, although there are five and six groove barrels reported in various collections. The rifling twist for most Trapdoors in 45 calibre is 1 in 22" and it will stabilize 500 grain boolits easily. A few Trapdoor barrels are reported with 1 in 18" twist rates.

For those of you interested in early army marksmanship training with the Trapdoor, here is a reproduction of COL Laidley's manual of 1879. The failure of army marksmanship at the Little Big Horn led several prescient soldiers to develop what was the antecedent of today's marksmanship training. You can obtain a copy from Cornell Publications ( www.cornellpubs.com ). Thanks to Larry Gibson for discovering this arcane publication.

The portrait is of SGT Coons, one of the first Distinguished Riflemen in the US Army. I believe he used a special "Marksman" or "Long Range" model of the Trapdoor to garner his Distinguished status. Note the Distinguished Badge at the top left (from our point of view) of his chest. His other awards include what look to be three Excellence in Competition badges (two bronze and one silver), often called "Leg medals" by today's military marksmen and what I believe to be the Army Marksman Badge of the time in the center.