Should I shake and bake again?

[boatswainsmate]

Hi All,
Here are my first powder coated bullets. They have some pinholes here and there and was wondering if I should shake and bake them again? Thanks in advance!
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn271/ericlee1971/img_0343_zps2e848696.jpg (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/ericlee1971/media/img_0343_zps2e848696.jpg.html)
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn271/ericlee1971/img_0338_zpsa0af62e4.jpg (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/ericlee1971/media/img_0338_zpsa0af62e4.jpg.html)

[43PU]

I would shoot them, I have shot MUCH worse without any problems, your coating seems a bit thick too...

43PU

[rsrocket1]

Sizing them wil cause the PC to flow and close up some of the pinholes where it counts (driving bands). Think about what the driving bands are supposed to do in the grooves of the rifling. They are supposed to seal off the gases and prevent gas cutting and consequently the leading as the bullet goes down the barrel. Minor PC pinholes are not going to cause failure to seal the bore.

You're good to go even though you might not try to show these off as trophy bullets. Shooting performance is what counts.

[dilly]

I think most of the time even when there are pinholes on the driving bands it's probably covered by the clear part of the powder which is the active lubricating ingredient. Who cares about even covering of just the pigment?

Besides, what traditionally lubed bullet has 100% coverage? How have we come to assume 100% coverage is necessary?

[bangerjim]

That pinhole effect can be caused by having silicone on the surface of your boolits. Be sure you are not using any kind of mold lube with silicone in it. That stuff reeks havoc on any finish! Only a real good bath in laq thinner or acetone will remove the silicon.

Also your coat seem extremely thick. Are you preheating the boolits B4 tumbling? No need to, as that makes the coating go on too thick.

Concern yourself with the TOPS of the grease grooves and NO lead showing. That is the critical area. All else is just cosmetic covering.

And are you tapping hemostat holding the powdered boolits on the side of the container to knock the extra powder off B4 setting on the NSAF?

banger

[popper]

I assume HF red. The red flows pretty good when it is hot long enough, those look pretty heavy coated & should have flowed better. I don't see any flash on the bases. Also watch humidity & boolits bumping each other. If you DT a few a second time and the pits don't go away it is most likely contamination on the boolits.

[boatswainsmate]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm doing the dry tumble method. I guess I will just have to keep trying using everyones advice. I'm currently using HF red and 20 gr black airsoft bb's and #5 butter dish. Is there something special about the cool whip container? The bullets i'm using are as cast.

[bangerjim]

I personally have found round #5 containers work the best. I use coolwhip and screw-on lid ZipLok containers only. Other shapes yielded me imperfectly coated boolits.

HF red is normally the go-to powder for everyone starting out as it coats easily and completely. I have used several containers of it with perfect results in both DT and ESPC.

For an experiment, try washing a few cast in laq thinner, drying, and then DT'ing to see if the holes go away. I would think you would have washed all the butter out of the container with a good water-based degreaser?!?!?!?

I have never seen the effect you are getting in the tons of boolits I have DT'd with red and blue.

banger

[Whizzer]

<snip>I have never seen the effect you are getting in the tons of boolits I have DT'd with red and blue.

banger

I get this too, exactly like the pic in the O.P. with HF Red....but not everytime. I just hadn't commented on it yet. (I don't post a lot.)

My toaster oven shows 415 on the separate oven thermometer when I load the trays, and I go 15 minutes. If I can't stand the number of pinholes--which varies--I coat 'em again. They still size ok in 9mm and .30 cal. But lately, I just think its plenty good enough for 1400fps. I'm looking to push 30-30 and 7.62x39's up without a gas check. I'm waiting on some stuff from Smoke to see if the Dry Tumble with AirSoft Plastic BB's works better with his stuff. I suspect it will.

I'm just not interested in spraying powder when shake and bake is so easy. A friend who owns a reloading supply and hobby shop in Wichita finally tried "shake and bake" at my urging. He's sold! But he told me the other day, he's dedicated a vibratory tumbler to the process. I haven't seen his results, but he shakes boolits and powder ONLY....in his Lyman Vibratory Case Tumbler for several minutes. He dumps them out on wire fabric, catching the powder to recycle (of course) and slides the wire fabric "pan" into the toaster oven. Just like that.

I'ma try it one of these days too, as he says they are near perfect. I don't use mine anymore due to Stainless Steel Tumbling Media entering my life. What could it hurt to try.

Anyhow, to the O.P., those pills'll shoot just fine if they pass the smash test.

Stan

[boatswainsmate]

I cleaned the bullets with acetone and there still looking the same way. Could I have some bad powder? I didn't notice until I started that the can I bought was already opened before. There is quite allot of clumpy powder at the bottom of the container after I take all the bullets out.

[boatswainsmate]

Here is a pre-bake pic.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn271/ericlee1971/img_0347_zps1f5c7bea.jpg (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/ericlee1971/media/img_0347_zps1f5c7bea.jpg.html)

[bangerjim]

YUCK. You maybe have moisture in your powder storage container? I never see lumps in the bottom of my coolwhip or ziplok bowls. I know the humidity back in IN can get rather sticky. I lived in Iowa!

May I suggest you get a new bottle of HF red? It is only a few dollars - - - $5.99 (not on sale right now) but worth it to end your frustration. And hopefully that will solve your problems. If so, you can dry out your existing powder this winter when you have the furnace on inside the house and the humidity is bone dry.

banger

[Garyshome]

Save the pretty ones to show off and shoot the rest of em.

[Beagle333]

It's just a little too thick. You need less powder and more BB's.

I did some like that in one of my first batches..... not that bad, but kinda thick and clumpy looking. (The red ones are HF).
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/gloves002_zps8d2c2764.jpg

But they baked up better. I think my powder was just a little thinner than yours.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/gloves007_zps304326b1.jpg


Try it again with less HF, more BB. :wink:
I know that some are just using a few in the bottom, but my Cool Whip tub is about 1/3 full of BBs. Find your happy spot and ... Happy Coating!

:popcorn:

[boatswainsmate]

I bought another jug of HF red and got a cool whip container. I'm still getting the same results with just a little less build up. Is the humdity that big a deal with the dry tumble? Should I just bite the bullet and buy a gun if I want better results? Thanks

[Beagle333]

Are you sure you are baking at 400° and it is also long enough? It just kinda looks like it could flow more and it also isn't sticking to the bands like it should when cured. It should go through pretty much any sizing process and hardly be noticeable unless you have a really rough sizer.

[boatswainsmate]

Oven is cooking at 400 with turbo convection. These are after baking views.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn271/ericlee1971/img_0353_zpsf49e01b6.jpg (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/ericlee1971/media/img_0353_zpsf49e01b6.jpg.html)
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn271/ericlee1971/img_0352_zps53f6da92.jpg (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/ericlee1971/media/img_0352_zps53f6da92.jpg.html)
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn271/ericlee1971/img_0351_zpsdc652e16.jpg (http://s306.photobucket.com/user/ericlee1971/media/img_0351_zpsdc652e16.jpg.html)

[Beagle333]

I dunno. I have used a LOT of HF red and have never duplicated what you got there. Good luck on it!
I'm out of ideas. :-|

[boatswainsmate]

Thanks

[bangerjim]

Same here..........WHAAAAAAAAAT THE HECK? You have done all I /we can think of to get rid of those poor coats.

They look like cold bakes. Do they pass the hammer test?

Have you ACTUALLY checked the oven temp with a separate oven thermometer? Do not trust the dial on the outside!!!!!! I went thru 2 ovens B4 I bought a conv style. Both were off as much as 75F. My new conv unit is within 10F of the dial......luckyme, I guess! 400F is the magic temp that all powder mongers seem to recommend for thier products. That and 10 min bake cycle AFTER the powder turns glossy.

Good luck and keep us informed. I hate it that those on this group have not been able to help you from afar. Really sucks......but we will figure it out!

And yes humidity does play a significent roll in the ever-so-slight static charge created between the coolwhip bowl, the black bb's, and the lead. I have seen it this summer here in AZ when our DP's were in the 60-70F range! Poor coating. Thank God for my ESPC guns!

banger

[Beagle333]

You might already have one.... but 4 or 5 bucks and you'll definitely know the temp (if you don't have one).
http://www.equippers.com/images/411212_l.jpg

[popper]

humidity & boolits bumping I can't DT when R.H. is above 30% and get good results outside. The powder in the bowl will get damp & then doesn't work. I bring the tub inside, shake & let it sit, repeat till it floats in the air again. i only PC rifle boolits anymore & they tend to bump more - don't put too many in the tub. Only bake the ones that look good, re-DT the others. I have the gun & a compressor so I can do either, depending on time & R.H.

[firefly1957]

Are you washing your bullets in a solvent before coating them? Even though bullets are freshly cast they may have oil on them i always rinse them in acetone or alcohol before coating.

[bangerjim]

I never have rinsed a boolit and never have had any problems with powder sticking or coating. There could be a very slight lube oil carryover, but not on large quantites of drops I WD all my slugs to just cool them and I have rarely if ever seen any floating oil on the surface.

There is a post on here somewhere where someone messed around with a rinse in min spirits B4 coating. Seemed to give more static cling? It's all in the triboelectric effect in the bowl. Never done it because I have never needed to do it. Might be worth you trying it for S&G's.

But I agree with popper - - - - higher RH/DP will adversely effect BBDT'ing. ESPC holds up much better and seems to work successfully.......every single time.

For fool-proof coatings in any weather, I would highly suggest you seriously consider the ESPC technology. Lots of us will chime in on a...........yes.

bangerjim

[popper]

RH 30% yesterday, no problem. 37% today and really hard to get a coating. Doing a batch today, we'll see how good, yesterdays were fine even though they looked poor before baking -HF red. Cold & rain predicted for tomorrow so time for the ES. Got about 30# to do.
Edit: a few slight uncovered spots on about half of 80.

[boatswainsmate]

Thanks for all the reply's. I will look into a gun. I read about one that dosen't require a air compressor here on the forum that sounded interesting.

[popper]

Did a batch with HF red tonite, watched at 300,350 400F. Seems like it melts about 300, doesn't flow well until 400 and you get that smell when they 'pop'. Epoxy powder has to catalyze before it's done.

[bruce381]

to cool? get a thermometer and see

[Whizzer]

Did a batch with HF red tonite, watched at 300,350 400F. Seems like it melts about 300, doesn't flow well until 400 and you get that smell when they 'pop'. Epoxy powder has to catalyze before it's done.

I don't know what you mean by 'pop'in this post.

[bangerjim]

It's.......I say......it's a joke, son!

:bigsmyl2:

[Whizzer]

It's.......I say......it's a joke, son!

:bigsmyl2:

SNORT! (I love me some Foghorn Leghorn!...)

While I have your attention Bangerjim, is it my imagination, or is my Red Harbor Freight just a skoche "harder" finish than Smokes's Powders? Neither produce lead fouling in my initial experimenting, but my fingernail says it might be...

All I do so far is ASBBDT because I'm holding out on buying another toy. I've recovered several lightly loaded 30-30 RED slugs out of my rubber mulch bucket and am SIMPLY DUMBSTRUCK(!) at how much of the HF Red survives the ride. I'm not complaining about my fine Smoke4320 PC'd pills, mind you. The DT coverage is amazing.

[popper]

'pop' = chemically heat cure. As Banger has stated, it appears to only 10 min. or so at temp. to cure.

[bangerjim]

SNORT! (I love me some Foghorn Leghorn!...)

While I have your attention Bangerjim, is it my imagination, or is my Red Harbor Freight just a skoche "harder" finish than Smokes's Powders? Neither produce lead fouling in my initial experimenting, but my fingernail says it might be...

All I do so far is ASBBDT because I'm holding out on buying another toy. I've recovered several lightly loaded 30-30 RED slugs out of my rubber mulch bucket and am SIMPLY DUMBSTRUCK(!) at how much of the HF Red survives the ride. I'm not complaining about my fine Smoke4320 PC'd pills, mind you. The DT coverage is amazing.


Personally I only have Smokes blue and have had excellent luck with it. It seems as hard as HF red but does go on thinner because it is a different kind of "polymer" makeup than HF red. My final go-no go test is the 2# hammer smashing a coated boolit to almost 1/2" thick nose to base. Then (for S&G's) smash it side to side until you have a little square of TOTALLY coated lead! Yes a properly applied and cured coat will survive that torture test! Try it for yourself!

DT'ing will end up aa bit thicker than ESPC from all my trys, even with Smoke's excellent powder. I average ~0.0018-20 add for ESPC and ~0.002-25 with DT. Sizing brings all slugs back into the die spec. I have never had a die scrape off a properly cured coating, no matter how hard it goes thru. (If it will survive the travel down the barrel, the sloooooow route thru the die is a piece of cake!). I have tried under-cooked ones and it will come off! That 10 min cook AFTER the powder turns shiny in the PRE-HEATED convection oven appears to be the key to success on this end. I generally cook 4-5 racks during a bake session (hey...the oven is hot!), with anywhere between 65 and 100 boolits on a rack, depending on cal.

Testing the coat hardness is tricky and we may have to revert to the age-old proven paint industry method of the artists lead pencils. That was used for many years as a seat of the pants test for paint hardness. I have read that PC can range from 24-42 hardness, depending on who you hear from. Our standard Cabine or Lee testers will NOT work because they deflect the lead beneath. I have not done any testing to develop numbers for comparison, but it would be a good winter project for someone?!?!? The pencil lead shoud scrape thru the PC (indicating it's realtive hardness) without being detrimentally effected by the underlying Pb.

Bottom line........if they shoot without leading.......fire away!!!!!!!

banger

[Whizzer]

I have Smoke's blue also and it's wonderful. Amazing coverage and no leading up to just a little over 1600 FPS from my SKS 7.62x39, but I'm not finished pushing up the loading. I'm probably just imagining that the HD Red feels harder to my barely trained thumbnail. I've only been casting a couple of years, and have little to offer this forum as of yet. Some of you guys are 30 and 40 years in!

I love this place!
Stan

[PalmettoProjectiles]

you're good, that coated them enough to do what youre trying to do.

[3006mv]

Size, load and shoot.
next time maybe tumble longer?