Remember The Alamo

[jcwit]

Who would have thought a Brit would have done this.

http://www.komonews.com/news/entertainment/Phil-Collins-gives-vast-Alamo-collection-to-Texas-280726492.html

SAN ANTONIO (AP) — British pop star Phil Collins on Tuesday handed over his vast collection of artifacts related to the Battle of the Alamo and the Texas Revolution to the state of Texas.

Collins was in San Antonio to donate what's considered the world's largest private collection of Alamo artifacts. It includes a fringed leather pouch and a gun used by Davy Crockett, Jim Bowie's legendary knife and letters from garrison commander William B. Travis.

"There's things in there that will make your mouth drop," Collins said.

The 1980s pop artist and Genesis singer-drummer has joked that he spent all the money he made from music on artifacts related to the 1836 battle in which 1,500 Mexican troops laid siege to 200 Texans.

The collection was given to Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson, the state steward of the Alamo who is pushing for a new historical center that would house Collins' collection.




And there's more in the link.

[flydoc]

makes me glad I bought all of those albums he made

[starmac]

It has been a long time since history class, but I seem to remember more mexicans at the alamo. I did go to school in Texas, maybe history was taught the TEXAS way. lol

[pworley1]

That is an outstanding gift.

[Charley]

Collins has been a huge collector of Alamo and Texas Independence items for many, many years. Quite few of his things have been on display before, this is much, much bigger. Now to kick Ripley's Believe It or Not and other turista BS out of Alamo Plaza. Chapel and Convento (long barracks) are the only historical buildings there, would e nice to see the plaza dedicated to those on both sides who sacrificed there. When folks come here, I always tell them, look at Mission San Antonio de Valero (The Alamo) first, then Mission Concepcion, to see what the buildings originally looked like, then Mission San Juan, to see what the entire mission complexes were like.

[Mike in TX]

Charley, what you suggest is on the city council agenda. I would be nice to see how the Alamo was really like. I went to Bracketville once to see the 5/8 Alamo. What a lesson. Too bad that it is closed now.

[geargnasher]

Good to hear this.

Gear

[Echo]

Now if we could only dredge up the Twin Sisters from the Gulf...

And there were many 'Texicans' at the Alamo - my neighbor's great-grand-uncle was there...

[fishhawk]

So lets see now people have been looking for this stuff since the Alamo in 1836 and none of it was found until Collins starts to "collect" in the 1980s so people can't find the stuff for 150 years and he just "happens" to come up with the artifacts in 35 years? I don't think so....

[starmac]

I doubt the stuff was lost, but I see it as quite possibly he was willing to pay more for it than a lot of people could afford.

[fishhawk]

Need more proof to convince me that those are the real deal.

[starmac]

Don't know, but I would assume if he was a serious collector (apparently he was) he would have done a little research and aquired some documentation. I would also assume those in control of the Alamo proper would be doing some research of their own on the matter. We all know what assuming gets you though. lol

[Charley]

Charley, what you suggest is on the city council agenda. I would be nice to see how the Alamo was really like. I went to Bracketville once to see the 5/8 Alamo. What a lesson. Too bad that it is closed now.
Who knows! SA's council is a circus act, at best. One side of me doesn't WANT anything done, because most of the plaza is private property, and has been since the late 1840s, at least.On the other hand, would like to see an open plaza again. As for authenticity, many items came from Mexico, much of it back country. Remember, de la Pena's diaries weren't published in English until the late 1970s. Many have argued they were forgeries, but lots of scholars who don't have a stake in them say they are real. I lean that way.

[Rufus Krile]

I'll side with Charley on the de la Pena diary... when Fehrenbach was still alive, he did too. If any of you non-Texican types get to visit this shrine, be sure to hit the bar in the Menger Hotel next door. A surprise awaits.

[HarryT]

There were only seven Texans at the Alamo. Most of the fighters came from East of the Mississippi and Europe. Its hard to believe Jim Bowie's knife was found.

[Garyshome]

Class act!

[Rufus Krile]

Harry T... you need to read the bronze plaque on the wall of the chapel. There were more than 7 hispanic surnames listed there. There were 30-odd "Gonzales Immortals" that showed up knowing it was a one-way trip. There were a lot of those you mention there too... Crockett and Bowie among them... but many of these men were there to slow Lopez de Santa Anna long enough for their families to escape. I recommend TR Fehrenbach's "Lone Star" for a much more complete description.

[starmac]

They were all at least honorary Texans before it was over.

[Bzcraig]

Cool, very cool

[MtGun44]

I have trouble with the provenance of some of those more prominent artifacts. I HOPE they
are real, but am skeptical without knowing more of how they are known to be what
they are purported to be. Most sources cannot even adequately describe Bowie's knife
beyond "a big knife for fighting" or similar descriptions entirely worthless for definitive
identification. AFAIK, nobody, including Bowie ever had anything as definitive as even a
clear description, let alone a sketch or tracing or similar factual basis.

I'll leave Davy Crockett's rifle alone, it may have more historical records to identify it, I
do not know.

In any case - a generous gift, very welcomed, but it would seem that serious investigation
by experts will be in order. Hope that they all prove to be the real deal.

Bill

[Col4570]

Where better than to give back to Texas those artifacts.Nice one Phil,they are home now.
The whole ambience of the movie the Alamo and the actors who starred in it is an all time favourite with me.The music the masses of extras the dust and heat all expertly put together into a heart stirring epic that would be hard to duplicate.

[Col4570]

That agent smith commenting on the komo News is a nasty piece of work.Trolls are everywhere.

[oldred]

As some of the others have said I too find the authenticity of some of these "artifacts" to be highly suspicious, especially Jim Bowie's knife. Except for maybe the knife he actually had on him at the Alamo just which knife of the many attributed to Bowie is he purported to have? How could any knife be positively identified as "THE" knife Bowie had at the Alamo? Who collected this knife after the battle? Where is the record of such a find? Did the Mexican army leave any weapons behind? Did some Mexican soldier carry off Bowie's knife? Who knows any of this?

[jcwit]

As some of the others have said I too find the authenticity of some of these "artifacts" to be highly suspicious, especially Jim Bowie's knife. Except for maybe the knife he actually had on him at the Alamo just which knife of the many attributed to Bowie is he purported to have? How could any knife be positively identified as "THE" knife Bowie had at the Alamo? Who collected this knife after the battle? Where is the record of such a find? Did the Mexican army leave any weapons behind? Did some Mexican soldier carry off Bowie's knife? Who knows any of this?

I'll leave that up to the experts who know much more about artifacts than most anyone here.

[oldred]

I'll leave that up to the experts who know much more about artifacts than most anyone here.


Do a search on Jim Bowie and his knife, the history is quite well known and is not exactly relegated to the expertise of the "experts". As well known as Jim Bowie's knife(s) are the fact is little is known about what the original(s) even looked like never mind where they are today, the only known real descriptions of it/them is that it was "a large knife for fighting" and most historians think that probably the knife used at the famous Sandbar duel that made Jim and the knife famous was much like a common butcher's knife of the day. Jim, and his brother Rezin, had several different knifes made by blacksmith Jessi Clift and and later by known knife makers Daniel Searles and John Constable due to the many requests for knives made by people after the famous Sandbar fight. No historical mention can be found anywhere about which knife Jim had at the Alamo or indeed proof that he even had one although it would seem extremely unlikely that he was without at least one of his famous knives at that historical incident. I have researched Jim's knives long before this came up, as has a great many others in far more detail than I ever could have, because of a desire to duplicate his celebrated weapon but the fact is the only real description of it is a vague account from Jim's own brother as "about 9 1/2" long, 1/4" thick and 1 1/2" wide straight-backed much like a butcher's knife" and that's about the extent of it. While there are a few examples of knives made during Jim's lifetime that can be linked to him it just stretches the imagination to the limit to try to link any particular knife to the Alamo, it's difficult enough to find any direct link to any particular knife never mind one as sensational as that!

[Char-Gar]

The Alamo has become a political football. It is an eyesore and affront to many of the La Raza type Mexicans who now form the majority of the population of San Antonio. The Mayor and his mother are among those. His mother is on record wanting to have the Alamo bulldozed to the ground.

For almost 100 years the Daughters of the Republic of Texas were the custodians of the Alamo. There were false accusations made about their accounting, but that that was enough for the State of Texas to size control of the Alamo. The charge against the Alamo was made by a Mexican state senators, who despite her Dutch last name, is 100% Mexican. She is now the Democrat candidate for Lt. Governor.

The Daughters of the Republic of Texas are 100% Anglo/Gringa/White women and as such are not acceptable to the San Antonio Mexicans to be custodians of the Alamo.

I am glad Collins gave his collection but we will see how it comes out. Jerry Patterson is a snake who says one thing, but plays racial politics with the best of them. Patterson is not to be trusted. He sought the Republican Governor's nomination but was beaten like a drum by Greg Abbot.

It is sad that the Alamo has become the football in Texas racial politics, but it has.

[Charley]

Look closer at the stories, Collins is NOT claiming a knife as in Bowie's possession at the Alamo, only that he has a knife OWNED by Bowie. Given the size of the family left in Louisiana, wouldn't be surprising. Same for a rifle owned by Crockett, makes no claim it was in Crockett's possession at the Alamo, merely that is was owned by him. Only thing I've seen that was claimed to be in Crockett's possession was a ball pouch, supposedly given to de la Pena before he was executed. DRT has morphed into Anglo/Gringa organization, for the most part, but Adelina De Zavala, Grandaughter of Lorenzo De Zavala, wasn't exactly New England stock. Despite what many blieve, the Texas revolution WASN'T " 'Mericans 'ginst 'Meskins". Lots and lots of Tejanos fought against Santa Anna's dictatorship. De Zavala, Seguin, Veramendi, Navaro, LaSoya, Esparza, and on and on.
Van De Puke is a non entity anyway, she's going to get whacked in the election. As for Mayor, Castro isn't Mayor anymore. SA has a council/manager government anyway, mayor is just another council person. His momma was a huge supporter of La Raza Unida, with very strong Marxist beliefs. That's why Julian is busy kissing Obama's nether regions now instead of bothering us here in SA.

[Char-Gar]

Anybody that knows Texas history knows that many Tejanos fought against Mexico in the Texas Revolution and played major roles in the Texas Republic government. However it is convenient to forget that in the La Raza way of thinking.

What did indeed happen is the Tejanos were forced out of influence, after Texas joined the Union. That started a flood of American's coming to the new state and soon the Tejanos were way outnumbered and their contributions brushed aside by the new gringos coming to Texas. That was when the problems between Texans and Tejanos started.

There are some ladies with Mexican surnames in the DRT, but they are "white Mexicans" i.e. folks whose families have assimilated into Texas/US culture and as such despised by those who have not assimilated into Texas/US culture.

Here is deep south Texas there are many families who have been here since the days of the Spanish land grants. They are 100% Americans in every way. However the vast majority of people down here are at best the first of their family to be born in the US. Most are not well off and are to busy making a living to worry about political nonsense and being victims.

It is the 3rd. generation Mexican that go to college where they are taught this La Raza bs by far left wing professors. These folks are the problems......

As far as Van de Putte goes, she won't win the election, but she does wield influence. It was enough for her go raise enough dust in the air to kick the DRT our of the Alamo. They still are custodians of The French Ligation but I don't expect that to last very long either. La Raza has those ladies in their cross hairs.

[oldred]

Look closer at the stories, Collins is NOT claiming a knife as in Bowie's possession at the Alamo, only that he has a knife OWNED by Bowie. Given the size of the family left in Louisiana, wouldn't be surprising.

I agree that the article does not specifically say "the knife Bowie had at the Alamo" but look at what it does say, "the world's largest private collection of Alamo artifacts, it includes Jim Bowie's legendary knife" and this is quoted as if it is indeed an "Alamo" artifact not just a Jim Bowie possession. Besides just calling it "Jim Bowies legendary knife" as if it was "The" knife is misleading sensationalism because there is no known single knife that could be called "The legendary knife" since not only were there many different knives attributed directly and indirectly to Jim Bowie no one even knows what the original knife actually looked like never mind what ever became of it! "A knife owned by Jim Bowie" or even "One of Jim Bowies famous knives" might have been appropriate but that article quite clearly calls this "Jim Bowies legendary knife" (as if there was only that one) and lists it as an Alamo artifact! If simple possession of a knife or any other weapon or whatever by Bowie, Crockett or anyone else associated with the battle of the Alamo can be called an "artifact" even though it was never there then OK but that article is quite misleading intentional or not!

[jcwit]

Lets stop bickering as to who made what and who owned what when, let that up to those who are trained in that field and are schooled & skilled in doing it.

The important thing is that Phil Collins did an Honorable thing in returning these artifacts. Lets hope they get the building built and all this put on display for the rest of us to enjoy.

[oldred]

Lets stop bickering as to who made what and who owned what when, let that up to those who are trained in that field and are schooled & skilled in doing it.



As the saying goes "it don't take a rocket scientist here" and anyone who dabbles in knives would find that claim (in the article) to be humorous to say the least! All I said was that some of the claims in that article are highly suspect and it's obviously quite misleading, there simply is no single "Jim Bowie's legendary knife" to be in that collection that was at the Alamo or anywhere else! The "Bowie knife" is many knives of different designs of which even Bowie himself possessed several different versions so calling this knife, owned at one time by Bowie or not, an Alamo artifact is dubious at best and that was the point.

[jcwit]

So the consensus by what you wrote is that the news person did not completely know what he/she was writing about, which is highly likely.

Now, knowing that none of us has seen any of the articles in question or know anything of the background of any of this, again lets let the pro's handle it.

In a younger life I also "dabbled" in knives, but limited myself to those made in England, mainly those from Sheffield, The founder of Atlanta Cutlery was very helpful in my acquiring various pieces. This was back in the latter 60's and early 70's. Never delved into the Jim Bowie pieces.

[Mike in TX]

Who knows! SA's council is a circus act, at best. One side of me doesn't WANT anything done, because most of the plaza is private property, and has been since the late 1840s, at least.On the other hand, would like to see an open plaza again. As for authenticity, many items came from Mexico, much of it back country. Remember, de la Pena's diaries weren't published in English until the late 1970s. Many have argued they were forgeries, but lots of scholars who don't have a stake in them say they are real. I lean that way.

And a corrupt city council

[Char-Gar]

The actual design of "The Bowie Knife" is lost to history, but there are written descriptions and the knives that later came to be known as Bowie knives. Like all anecdotal information the written descriptions are questioned by some.

James Bowie was a disreputable sort, given to crooked dealings which resulted in duels and fights. There is no doubt he used various blades over the course of "career".

The role of the fighting knife in American history is an interesting one. When pistols fired only one shot, the knife was always loaded. The advent of the revolver started the knife on the road toward obsolescence. However it can be said that a good blade will never to obsolete, just a poor choice to take to a gun fight.

[fishhawk]

The only connection right now that I can discern as being at all credible to the Alamo is that these "artifacts" were supposedly owned by Crockett and Bowie at some time in there life and for these to be the items to have been used at the battle is suspect in my opinion.

[Char-Gar]

There will be no items from the Alamo battle as the Mexican soldiers picked the dead and the place clean. Some stuff has turned up over the years in Mexico, but there is no proof of it's origins. It is senseless to debate this stuff any more. Collins has some stuff from early Texas and from people who fought at the Alamo, but actual Alamo battle stuff..nope.

[jcwit]

There will be no items from the Alamo battle as the Mexican soldiers picked the dead and the place clean. Some stuff has turned up over the years in Mexico, but there is no proof of it's origins. It is senseless to debate this stuff any more. Collins has some stuff from early Texas and from people who fought at the Alamo, but actual Alamo battle stuff..nope.

That is an opinion, none of us know this for a fact, myself included.

Likely you may be correct, likely unproveable "is that a word?", but in reality who actually knows the outcome?

We all shall see.

Maybe Jim carved into the handle of the much celebrated knife, "thes is Jim Bowies knif I usd at the Allmo".

[Multigunner]

Reminds me of the sideshow barker played by Spencer Tracy in the old movie "Dantes Inferno".
He held up an example of the artifacts to be found inside. "Here we have the skull of Julius Ceasar"
A man in the crowd speaks up "Sir I am a doctor and I say that is the skull of a child"
Tracy looks at the skull and says "Even more rare we have the skull of Julius Ceasar when he was a child".

[Char-Gar]

That is an opinion, none of us know this for a fact, myself included.

Likely you may be correct, likely unproveable "is that a word?", but in reality who actually knows the outcome?

We all shall see.

Maybe Jim carved into the handle of the much celebrated knife, "thes is Jim Bowies knif I usd at the Allmo".

Opinion? Well certainly, but so is 99.99% of the other stuff on this site. Empirical and provable truth is in short supply in these parts. Therefore, I will stick to my opinion until and unless we find Bowie's knife so inscribed.

[Duckiller]

Origins of artifacts are hard to prove. I have a pair of spurs that supposedly were given to my grandfather by Billy the Kid. After the Civil War when there was little work for a young man around Sedalia Mo. my grandfather went to Las Vegas NM to visit relatives. While there he got a job taking care of cattle out of a line camp. A young man showed up with a gun shot wound. My grandfather medicated him as best he could with what was at hand. The young man's health gradually improved and he began cooking for the two of them while my grandfather looked to the cattle. Eventually the young man fully regained his health and prepared to leave the line camp. As he left he told my grandfather that he was Billy the Kid and gave my grandfather a pair of spurs. No proof of any of the above, just family legend. The spurs have large rowels that were supposedly typical for the time and place. Not sure how I would prove any of it to be a fact. Some of Mr. Collins acquisitions may have similar history.

[Charley]

There will be no items from the Alamo battle as the Mexican soldiers picked the dead and the place clean. Some stuff has turned up over the years in Mexico, but there is no proof of it's origins. It is senseless to debate this stuff any more. Collins has some stuff from early Texas and from people who fought at the Alamo, but actual Alamo battle stuff..nope.

Most likely correct. The pickings that didn't get abandoned at San Jacinto would have ended up back in Mexico, most likely in the remote villages of the soldiers and soldierras. Except for oral tradition, no way to authenticate a piece as to its origin. The ball pouch is an example. Family oral tradition says it was from Crockett, but other than that, there would be no link. Nobody's mother wrote their name in their underwear back then!
Yeah, I dislike Van De Pute intensely. Thank God she doesn't represent me. Neither does Joaquin Castro.

[HarryT]

Phil Collins bought a store near The Alamo just so he could play junior archaeologist. He dug up the foundation and recovered many of his artifacts.
At one time, he said he'd never part with them. "The Bowie Knife" is the one that was made in 1831 by James Black in Arkansas. This is the one James Bowie designed and made a wooden prototype to be used by the knifemaker. James Black had a secret steel and tempering process that made the blade strong and resistant to wear. The Vidalia sandbar duel (fight) was in 1827.

[Kent Fowler]

Collins has been a huge collector of Alamo and Texas Independence items for many, many years. Quite few of his things have been on display before, this is much, much bigger. Now to kick Ripley's Believe It or Not and other turista BS out of Alamo Plaza. Chapel and Convento (long barracks) are the only historical buildings there, would e nice to see the plaza dedicated to those on both sides who sacrificed there. When folks come here, I always tell them, look at Mission San Antonio de Valero (The Alamo) first, then Mission Concepcion, to see what the buildings originally looked like, then Mission San Juan, to see what the entire mission complexes were like.

Amen to that, brother

[Elkins45]

I would love to know the history behind why Phil Collins because so interested in something so far outside the interest range of the average English rock musician as The Alamo.

[Col4570]

I would love to know the history behind why Phil Collins because so interested in something so far outside the interest range of the average English rock musician as The Alamo.
Who knows,but many collectors and shooters over here are interested in your history and collect artifacts just as Phil Collins does.I would imagine that the heroic stand at the Alamo would have stirred his interest to acquire those items.

[Char-Gar]

The reality of the Alamo and the people there are quite different from the Alamo myth which most folks swallow whole.

[fishhawk]

Well there's a line in the movie "The man who shot Liberty Valance" that goes some thing like "when the legend becomes fact print the legend" and in this case the legend has become fact.

[Janoosh]

Friends....I would like to do more personal research on the battle of San Jacinto. Charley' post (thanks) has brought forth a theory of mine. Any definitive sources. ??
My theory:
Soldiers tend to scavenge and/or loot battlefields. Since the Mexican Army was on foot, carrying "extras" would have been cumbersome. Any such extras would have been put in the personal baggage train. If Santa Anna marched his men directly to San Jacinto, the baggage train would have followed. And so did the extras. Was the Mexican Army baggage train taken.? If so, then most of what was taken at the Alamo stayed in Texas. Personal items of the Alamo defenders would have been easy to carry. Knives, pistols, ball bags, yes.....another rifle to carry.???
How strict was Mexican military discipline. ? Were there Auxiliary troops.?
Thanks to All...

[oldred]

The reality of the Alamo and the people there are quite different from the Alamo myth which most folks swallow whole.


One of the fellows at work a few years ago visited the Alamo with his family and when he came back from vacation he was astounded at how small the Alamo was, when I tried to explain that all he was seeing was the Alamo chapel and maybe a small section of barracks where very little fighting actually took place he would have none of it! He simply would not accept that the actual "Alamo" has been swallowed up in the town, to most folks the Chapel that is so often pictured IS the Alamo and they just can't imagine, and in some cases are unwilling to accept, that nearly the entire compound is simply gone and that what's left is pretty much obscured by tacky commercial nonsense.

[TXGunNut]

I'm glad Collins has taken an interest in the subject and quite possibly recovered some significant artifacts and returned them to the Alamo so that more folks could enjoy them. The provenance will be difficult and in some cases tentative at best but war is often messy and a strict chain-of-custody type record is too much to ask for with items like Collins has donated. I hope his efforts invigorate the folks who want to preserve what's left of the Alamo for generations to come. Seems I better take another trip down there soon just in case. And yes, I've had the pleasure of a drink in the Menger bar with my dad and brother. If you can't feel the history in that room you're not paying attention. My dad preferred to stay at the Menger hotel when he was in town.

[Abenaki]

I thought that you might like to know that Phil Collins has published a book showing pictures of the the many artifacts about the Alamo.

Take care
Abenaki

[Bad Water Bill]

Sounds like a great book.

He also shares his authentication of many of the items in the collection.

To bad the $80.00+ price tag puts it well beyond this OLD mans reach.

[762 shooter]

Unless Mr. Collins intends to open a retail artifacts store near the Alamo, it appears he is just a man who likes to spend money on his dreams. He is also a man who apparently has given his collection to the community that has the most to gain from the objects.

I suspect most artifacts have importance because people want to believe they are real.

Kudos to the drummer.

762

[Col4570]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOMonhG0XHY
I suppose this is how many of us see the battle of the Alamo as an inspirational though tragic episode in the making of the United States.