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ktw
02-06-2008, 10:26 PM
I am traveling for work this week and took advantage of the fact to visit some new gun shops along the way. I stopped in one this evening that happens to have one of the recent vintage Winchester (USRAC, possibly a "Traditional Hunter") Highwalls on the rack, used, 45/70, 28" tapered octagon barrel. Looked like 'as new' condition to me.

He has $950 on it. Says he's had it a long time and volunteered that he would be willing to negotiate on the price.

I'm not buying it this week. The knowledge of it's existence will be knawing away at the back of my mind for weeks, however. I am sure I will be stopping in to take another closer look at it the next time I am through town.

I need some advice from you guys before I go and do something rash. Like spend money that I have not saved up yet. And is there anything you can do to take that poke-you-in-the-eye gold finish off the trigger?

-ktw

oneokie
02-06-2008, 10:58 PM
The transmission could fall out of your car.

ktw
02-06-2008, 11:59 PM
The transmission could fall out of your car.

I don't own a car. The company provides me with a truck. If the tranny falls out the company pays to fix it. One way or another they will find a way to send me through this town again.

But I take your point. Can I interpret that as a vote for "if you really want a classic single shot rifle, don't blow your budget on the tarted up look-alike, save up for a real one instead"?

-ktw

Jon K
02-07-2008, 12:25 AM
That's it, the Hunter has no tang, but if you are only going to hang a scope on it, and don't care well then negotiate your best deal.

Jon

ktw
02-07-2008, 12:59 AM
That's it, the Hunter has no tang.

Did not notice that. That is a show stopper. Now I can sleep easy.

And move on to scheming over other rifles that I can not afford.

-ktw

EDK
02-07-2008, 10:37 AM
Ballard Rifles has moved to Onsted, Michigan. 9562 Sand Lake Highway, 517-467-6560, per BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE NEWS magazine. They made a beautiful High Wall replica. I visited their shop in Cody WY several times...not as big as SHILOH SHARPS or quite as customer oriented. (NOBODY is as good as the folks at SHILOH about making you feel like a member of the family!)

:redneck: :cbpour:

45 2.1
02-07-2008, 10:46 AM
That's it, the Hunter has no tang, but if you are only going to hang a scope on it, and don't care well then negotiate your best deal.

Jon

Thats news to me, since I have a couple and they have Marbles tang sights on their receiver tangs. Buy it, or you'll regret it. Very accurate rifles, especially the 4570.

Typecaster
02-07-2008, 01:41 PM
EDK—

My understanding is that Ballard Rifles isn't making "replica" High Walls; they are using Winchester specs...to the point that many parts interchange. I bought parts to add a single-set trigger to one of my "originals"...no problem. Nice people to work with.

ktw
02-07-2008, 08:56 PM
Thats news to me, since I have a couple and they have Marbles tang sights on their receiver tangs. Buy it, or you'll regret it. Very accurate rifles, especially the 4570.

There were several versions of the recent vintage Winchester Highwalls. I mentioned the "Traditional Hunter" and I think JonK was correct on that one - no tang. There was also the "Limited Series" versions in straight-walled BPCR cartridge chamberings which, as you point out, did have tangs and came mounted with tang sights. I have one of the USRAC/Miroku Low Walls which I am very happy with and it also has a full tang and front sight.

I did not ask to handle the rifle I referred to at the beginning of the thread. It was high up on the wall and I was not planning to put my money down. What makes me think it was a Traditional Hunter was the fact that it had the gold trigger/no front sight, which was how most other Traditional Hunter models I have seen were configured. It also had a set of scope bases mounted.

The 45/70 chambering opens up the possibility that I was wrong. I will take a closer look the next time I am in the area.

EDK: Thanks for the tip. Not my neighborhood, but I will check them out.


-ktw

Jon K
02-07-2008, 09:13 PM
Look at this one........45-70 Hunter, I don't see a tang..........
http://www.gunsamerica.com/976803869/Guns/Rifles/Winchester-Rifles-Modern-Bolt-Auto-Single/WINCHESTE.htm

Jon

McLintock
02-08-2008, 04:07 PM
But it says right in the description, "Tang drilled for vernier style sight", must have a tang but no sight. Just for clarification, I think the "Traditional Hunter" was Browning nomenclature and "Hunter" is New Winchester nomenclature. The Browning TH's had tangs, the new Hunter doesn't, but as pointed out by KTW, the Limited Series for vintage cartridges have tangs. Checked it out in the Gun Digest and the Hunter shows only rimless late type cartridges, so if it's a 45-70 it should have a tang and if so, that's a great price.
McLintock

montana_charlie
02-09-2008, 04:01 PM
For those who wish to know...
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=36136&LastModified=4675659926151917790

CM

ktw
02-09-2008, 05:38 PM
I did a little research on modern Browning/Winchester highwalls today

1) First there was the Browning B78 (gold trigger, no sights, no tang?, modern bottlenecks and 45-70, modern recoil pad, full gloss stock finish)

2) in 1985 the B78 was replaced by the Browning "1885" (gold trigger, no sights, tang?, modern recoil pad, bottlenecks and 45-70, satin stock finish)

3) later they came out with the "Traditional Hunter" models (highwalls and low walls, blued triggers, crescent buttplates, tang mounted peeps on full tang, added cartridges like 223, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 260 Rem, 30-30, 38-55, etc)

Somewhere in here they also started being badged as "Winchesters", don't know the exact chronological order of the following

4) Miroku rimfire low-walls (octagon to round barrels, crescent buttplates, tang and iron sights)
5) Winchester "Highwall Hunters" (Bottleneck cartridges, including the WSMs, no tang?)
6) Winchester (Browning?) "Limited" BPCR rifles (tang mounted peeps, straight walled black powder chamberings)

I am fairly certain that
a) The B78s (#1) did not have a full tang
b) #3, #4 and #6 did have full tangs
c) the rifle I saw was #2 above. It is still not clear to me exactly what features that model shares in common with the earlier B78s and which they shared with the later Traditional Hunters.

-ktw

pietro
03-28-2008, 01:24 PM
[it had the gold trigger/no front sight, which was how most other Traditional Hunter models I have seen were configured.]

Just my $0.02, but AFAIK, the post 1985, standard, plain-jane, Browning Model 1885's were the only .45-70's made without barrel sights - BPCR's & Traditional Hunter's all being iron sighted from the factory.

e15cap
03-28-2008, 01:43 PM
Do not confuse these with original 1885's. The engineer's got their hands on them and *****E'D John Brownings beautiful and "simple" design. The new ones are good guns, accurate and safe but they are 85's in looks only.
My opinion, Best Roger

McLintock
03-28-2008, 02:43 PM
The post B78 Browning's in Standard grade and 45-70, had barrel sights as standard equipment. They had a 28" octogon barrel, no tang and a shotgun butt with pad. Bought one new in the late '90's and shot it till I was able to get a Traditional Hunter type. Mounted a Marbles tang sight on the stock, and my shooting buddy is still shooting it, the sight's never moved, mounted in the wood, and it shoots just as good today as when I bought it, which was very good.
McLintock

scb
03-28-2008, 04:01 PM
e15cap hit the nail on the head *****E'D.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=229762#post229762

McLintock
03-28-2008, 05:00 PM
SCB, I'm with Dale53 (from your cited thread above) on your apprisal of the Brownings, a little too severe in my opinion. The triggers are easy to correct Lee Shaver does a good trigger for a decent price if you're not into Dale's mod), they're very accurate, the actions aren't all that fragile, and they're just good shooters, period. At a lot cheaper price also if that's a consideration; and a fellow in Calif (I think) sells a small very inexpensive kit that makes taking them down much easier. I've got 3 Browning's right now, a BPCR in 45-70 and two 38-55 Traditional Hunters and also a C. Sharps Hi Wall in 38-50 Remington, which is very close to the Winchester. I like the Brownings just as much as the C. Sharps; but again, just personal opinion.
McLintock

scb
03-29-2008, 11:58 AM
McLintock, I guess the real problem that I have with this rifle is a "truth in advertising" issue. If they had called it anything but and 1885 HiWall/LoWall I don't think I'd be so critical.

August
04-03-2008, 11:59 PM
Traditional Hunter configuration does indeed have a tang. It also has a Marbles tang sight attached in addition to the semi-buckhorn on the barrel.

The Traditional Hunter in the condition you describe books for $1200. You will not find another in that condition for the price you (expectantly) are being quoted.

If you don't buy it, you will pay a lot more for one at a later date after thoughts of this one have made swiss cheese of your brain.

Put it on layaway.

ktw
04-04-2008, 12:12 AM
The Traditional Hunter in the condition you describe books for $1200. You will not find another in that condition for the price you (expectantly) are being quoted.

I have not had a chance stop by and look at it again more closely. I am pretty sure it is not a Traditional Hunter. If I thought it was I would have made a special trip and been back there weeks ago.

I am fairly certain it is the pre-Traditional Hunter "1885": essentially a B78 with a satin finish stock. It has the black recoil pad, the gold plated trigger, scope blocks and no sights.

-ktw

August
04-04-2008, 10:42 AM
I have not had a chance stop by and look at it again more closely. I am pretty sure it is not a Traditional Hunter. If I thought it was I would have made a special trip and been back there weeks ago.

I am fairly certain it is the pre-Traditional Hunter "1885": essentially a B78 with a satin finish stock. It has the black recoil pad, the gold plated trigger, scope blocks and no sights.

-ktw

If it is not a tradtional hunter, then it is not very desirable, IMHO. Getting correct sights on it is a half-fast affair at best without the tang.

I'd pass on it -- unless, it is a TH.

Irascible
04-06-2008, 08:46 PM
I have an early Browning 1885 in 45-70. It is a beautifly made and accurate rifle. It came with barrel mounted open sights and no tang. Williams makes a really nice receiver sight which bolts on the rear scope mount holes. These are still being made.
I also have two Traditional hunters. a 30-30 and a 38-55. They are great guns. They came with tang mounted rear sights that look like Marbles, but seem better made. Mine are quite accurate. These guns are not being made anymore if the one you are looking at is one of these GRAB IT.
The BPCR guns were special. They had tang mounted sights and heavy BADGER barrels. These guns are spectacular. They are not being made anymore.

ktw
04-06-2008, 11:32 PM
I did make it back to look at this rifle recently and did handle it this time.

It is a very nice rifle. It doesn't have a tang. It handles very nicely, but compared to the Uberti Highwall I have been shooting it seems pretty light for a 45/70.

It's not quite what I am looking for (want to shoot iron sights rather than use a scope) and it's not a screaming good deal (not yet anyway). I am going to save my money toward something closer to exactly what I want. Never going to be able to afford C Sharps/Shiloh Sharps if I keep depleting the gun budget on "sorta close" guns.

Thanks to all for your help.

-ktw

Boz330
04-07-2008, 08:41 AM
Save them pennies KTW, you won't regret it. I bought a C-Sharps 85 back when they were still less than a grand and shoot it more than ever. BTW a grand was worth a whole lot more then. I could rum my truck for a whole year on that kind of money instead of 2 weeks. At that point it was the most money I had ever spent on any kind of firearm X 2. Took a while to save up for but was worth it.

Bob