I'm new and trying to get some accuracy.

[22_boomer]

I'm using an AR platform but it is not gas operated -- it is manual as shown below in the picture.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x205/22_boomer/100_7831_zps014d7ed5.jpg
I am trying to shoot economically so I am using light powder charges. I've gone through the .223 type brass using 6.0gr of Unique under the Lyman 225415 with a CCI 450 primer and it did ok at 50 yards. I have not tried dacron in any of my loads. I've done the same with the Bator 2 groove and Bator 3 Groove with about the same accuracy. I use Alox lube and all bullets are sized to .225 and gas checked. I've tried different twist rates from 1:7, 1:12 and 1:14 with, believe it are not, the 1:7 seems to get a little better accuracy. The 1:7 twist barrel is 20" long with chromed bore and chamber. I would really like to get the accuracy down to maybe an inch at 50 yards but the best I've gotten is 1.5" with 2.0" being more the norm. I am using a 3X9 power scope on the rifle -- not the one shown in the picture. I was wondering maybe I should drive the bullets a little faster but I'm new at this and also old and decrepit so I'm limited to going to the range once or twice a month and the 50 yard range is the limit to my walking. Is this the best I can expect or is there something else I can add?

[aspangler]

Where did you get the bolt upper? I've been looking but can't seem to find.
Try a little faster speed. My Vangard likes them best at about 2200-2300. YMMV

[Calamity Jake]

Try that 1 in 12 twist again with a little more FPS.
My AR with 1 in 12 shoots like this at 100 yards http://photos.gunloads.com/images/CalamityJake/rralar15cast002.jpg

It prefers the RCBS 22-055 over the your Lyman #

[Tatume]

For those speeds I recommend a better lube. Try LBT Blue Soft, or homemade Felix Lube (recipe on this site).

Welcome to the list, and don't let being old slow you down. All of us or either old or trying to be.

Take care, Tom

[22_boomer]

Where did you get the bolt upper? I've been looking but can't seem to find.
Try a little faster speed. My Vangard likes them best at about 2200-2300. YMMV

I had to make my setup. I think DPMS makes a special bolt/carrier and upper receiver that has the charging handle on the right hand side but it cost a really good bit. I call my setup a test mule since it's kinda ugly and only works manually. I believe the DPMS version is for guys that shoot in matches and want a faster way to clear the chamber if something isn't working right. I can switch barrels easy and I even have one barrel set up in 5.7X28 and it shoots little bug holes but I load the rounds just for this rifle and they probably would not work in the FN 5.7 pistol. These rounds are with copper jacketed bullets but I have tried cast boolits in this rifle using the same 5.7X28 brass but with not much success. It bothers me that the jacketed bullets shoot so freaky good and the cast boolits seem random. The 5.56 barrels with rounds loaded with Unique seemed to do well but not consistent. I could put two shots together and the next bunch would be off this way and that. I am not shooting with enough pressure to operate a gas system on an AR and I planned it this way to keep the use of powder down since some are hard to get here. I'll try increasing the velocity and pay closer attention to boolit weight and the COL. I've been trying a COL that fits the boolits into the throat or lead so the boolit is held stable. Wish I could use the 1:12 barrel again but it belongs to my SP1 upper and I don't really want to mess any more with that old collectible.

[runfiverun]

I'd sort the boolits as my first priority.
0.1 grs is my weight variation.
before I even attempt to check and lube I look each boolit over with a magnifying glass and toss anything I don't like, even if it looks good but feels funny it gets tossed.
I weight sort after checking and lubing.

I haven't tried anything as fast as unique powder but have shot just about everything slower than 2400 and faster than 4064 with pretty good results.
I also spend some time on brass prep, sorting cases into groups, trimming, etc.

[22_boomer]

I'd sort the boolits as my first priority.
0.1 grs is my weight variation.
before I even attempt to check and lube I look each boolit over with a magnifying glass and toss anything I don't like, even if it looks good but feels funny it gets tossed.
I weight sort after checking and lubing.

I haven't tried anything as fast as unique powder but have shot just about everything slower than 2400 and faster than 4064 with pretty good results.
I also spend some time on brass prep, sorting cases into groups, trimming, etc.

I'll try sorting the boolits by weight and see how that does. The reason I went with Unique is I had some that won't work with much else that I have and I use light powder charges in the cases although I plan to go up some in steps with the powder to see if it helps the accuracy. these light charges leave a lot of room and with slower powders could cause a detonation but that is basically what Unique powder does when it's lit off. I use a small rifle magnum primer to be sure the all the powder gets lit. I hope to be able to get to the range in a few weeks so I'll get a chance to try the rounds with the new changes.

[runfiverun]

that's a good nuff reason to try it.
I have thought about trying a fast powder at a bit slower speed just to make holes in paper at 50 yds or so.
I'm thinking red-dot or 700-x, cause I have some.
11 grs of 2400 has been a pretty good load [and easy for the wife to put together] but I have a limited supply of that and a whole lot more of the other two.

[Wayne Smith]

Just for grins and giggles try switching to a regular primer. Unique is easy to ignite so you won't have problems there. I'm wondering if that magnum primer is jiggling the boolit before the main charge hits it.

[runfiverun]

could easily be shoving it forward a bit.

[22_boomer]

Just for grins and giggles try switching to a regular primer. Unique is easy to ignite so you won't have problems there. I'm wondering if that magnum primer is jiggling the boolit before the main charge hits it.
Darn, I didn't think about that happening but it's a possibility. I've got CCI BR-4 primers that I've been using in the accurate copper jacketed bullets -- I'll try them.

[mdi]

FWIW and Sorta related; .223 in a solid breech 1-12 barrel. I have played around with cast bullets in my .223 Handi-Rifle. I don't have a .22 cal. mold so I purchased bullets from Beartooth, 45 gr. RN. With about 5.0 gr. WC 820 I got 1 1/2 groups, repeatedly, @ 50 yds. If you don't have WC820, my lot is 10% faster than H110, so you could use H110 and start low...

[22_boomer]

FWIW and Sorta related; .223 in a solid breech 1-12 barrel. I have played around with cast bullets in my .223 Handi-Rifle. I don't have a .22 cal. mold so I purchased bullets from Beartooth, 45 gr. RN. With about 5.0 gr. WC 820 I got 1 1/2 groups, repeatedly, @ 50 yds. If you don't have WC820, my lot is 10% faster than H110, so you could use H110 and start low...
I got some nice little 45gr cast boolits from (I believe) Montana Bullets that were presized to .224 and lubed. I'll try some of those bullets also plus I have H110. I just FL sized a bunch of .223 brass an put enough bell in the case mouth to be able to seat the gas checked base of the boolits easily. I need some batteries for my digital scale so I can weigh the boolits. By the way, Thanks for the information.

[Wayne Smith]

I don't shoot centerfire 22 but in my 25-20 I'm using pistol primers. Standard. I'm having no problem igniting either Unique or Herco in my 25-20 or my 32-20. Same primers.

[22_boomer]

I don't shoot centerfire 22 but in my 25-20 I'm using pistol primers. Standard. I'm having no problem igniting either Unique or Herco in my 25-20 or my 32-20. Same primers.

It wasn't till it was mentioned here that the magnum primers might dislodge the bullets that I remember reading about guys having that problem. I don't have any pistol primers but I do have bench rest small rifle primers and that's what I'll be using -- CCI BR-4 primers. A very nice fellow has been supplying me with different cast boolits and I really appreciate the fellow's help. The boolits that I had some luck with when using .223 brass was the Lyman 225415 boolit and also two versions of the Bator boolit although I believe the longer three grease groove boolit was the better on the two but I'll re-try them both just to be sure. Cast boolits are slippery and I had one dislodge from the case just being stripped from the magazine and seated in the chamber. My AR rifle is manually operated but it still has the buffer and spring in the AR lower so the cartridges get seated with fair amount of force. Due to that one boolit being dislodged I now put a light crimp in the case neck.

[Mike H]

My .223 target rifles get slightly higher velocities with Br-4 primers,compared to CCI-450's,this is with full powered jacketed loads.
Mike.

[22_boomer]

My .223 target rifles get slightly higher velocities with Br-4 primers,compared to CCI-450's,this is with full powered jacketed loads.
Mike.
Guess I have to back and buy some standard small rilfe primers. I was told that the BR-4's were just more consistent primers as compared to standard small rifle primers.

[quilbilly]

I have found my 223 to be a real challenge for reliable accuracy with cast boolits unlike my 22 Hornet or 222's but I am just looking for low velocity loads of about 1700 to 1900 fps. You may find the same but it is an enjoyable work in progress.

[22_boomer]

I have found my 223 to be a real challenge for reliable accuracy with cast boolits unlike my 22 Hornet or 222's but I am just looking for low velocity loads of about 1700 to 1900 fps. You may find the same but it is an enjoyable work in progress.
Looks like you are trying to find the same thing I am. I have a savage bolt action in 222 and I did try a long time back but I had a problem getting the cast boolits to feed well out of the savage magazine. I wish I could figure a way to build a single round device to feed those 222's in that savage like the single round follower that fits in an AR magazine.

[MT Gianni]

FWIW and Sorta related; .223 in a solid breech 1-12 barrel. I have played around with cast bullets in my .223 Handi-Rifle. I don't have a .22 cal. mold so I purchased bullets from Beartooth, 45 gr. RN. With about 5.0 gr. WC 820 I got 1 1/2 groups, repeatedly, @ 50 yds. If you don't have WC820, my lot is 10% faster than H110, so you could use H110 and start low...


The Dope on H110 is no loads reduced other than starting loads which are -3% of max loads. I use AA9 as a substitute for WC820 data, NOT H110 or WW296.

[runfiverun]

H-110 is a weird duck.
I sucked it up and tried it in some rifle loads a while back and it done fine, I was nervous as heck doing it and thankfully the accuracy wasn't much to get worked up about.
aa-1680 shot much better for me and 2400 done just as well as that and used less.

I used published and tested H-110 data so wasn't on my own this time.

[22_boomer]

H-110 is a weird duck.
I sucked it up and tried it in some rifle loads a while back and it done fine, I was nervous as heck doing it and thankfully the accuracy wasn't much to get worked up about.
aa-1680 shot much better for me and 2400 done just as well as that and used less.

I used published and tested H-110 data so wasn't on my own this time.

I checked into doing really reduced loads for the rifle cartridges (both .222 and .223) and all the info I found said the really fast powders kind of explode to start with and are not a problem as far as detonation goes. That is the reason I use (or at least am trying) Unique. The powder is like fairly large discs and works great for what I am doing but I measure each load on a beam scale so the size and shape is not a problem. LoadData says 8.0gr of Unique in a .223 Remington cast should get around 2000fps. This was the load that gave me some accuracy but I need to figure out why I get the inconsistency -- some shots grouping together and then random shot placement. I have not in the past tried to weigh the boolits but I guess that will have to become standard practice.

[runfiverun]

especially with the 22 boolits.
I sort them all.
my plinkers are the 'outside' weight boolits, they are still in a weight group though.
and yeah I got little cups full of weight sorted boolits all the same style sitting on the shelves.

[22_boomer]

I built a second manual AR upper to see if I could get any accuracy using .223 brass and light powder charges. I did a bunch of loads using cast boolits and also did some rounds using 40 grain V-max bullets as a comparison test batch. The first picture below is the V-max test group. I loaded 15 rounds but shot 2 to get sighted in so the group is only 13 rounds. The V-max rounds used 6.7gr of Unique powder and where shot through a Colt 1:7 twist 20" HBAR barrel.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7541/15657607958_17fd19eae9_m.jpg

I shot cast boolits through the same barrel as above. The cast boolits were Lyman 225415 51gr boolits and did fair with 8.0gr of Unique and 8.5gr of Unique but the best was at 9.0gr of Unique as shown below.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7566/15843131671_7836fd0cd9_m.jpg
that was a fair 5 shot group and the other rounds using that powder charge did the same. I believe I may have gotten around 2100fps with the 9.0 powder charge. The big thing was that this made for a good plinking and small varmint rifle using easy to find .223 brass and a light powder charge. All the cartridges were primed with CCI BR-4 primers.

I forgot to say that it was darn windy the day I shot these and was knocked around a bit by wind gusts.

[Pilgrim]

Guess I have to back and buy some standard small rilfe primers. I was told that the BR-4's were just more consistent primers as compared to standard small rifle primers.
xxxxxx

You were told correctly. The folks that make the CCI primers have their production more or less continually tested. The tech that makes the most consistent standard primers for a month, then makes the next months BR primers. The primer mix is the same, tools are the same, work area is the same. I've been there, seen the primers being made, and talked to both techs and CCI management. In fact I know BR shooters that use standard CCI primers rather than buying the BR primers. They win, too!!

[22_boomer]

I wondered about the BR-4 primers so I sent an e-mail to CCI about it and I got this reply;

"Charlie, you are almost right. The BR-4 primer is a standard primer, thrown to a tighter tolerance, but it also has a thick cup. The CCI 450 primer is hotter than the BR-4 primer. Below you will find the primer comparisons.

Small rifle primers
CCI-400.............................. standard mix, standard cup, and standard anvil.
CCI-450..............................Magnum primer, Mag primer mix, thick cup, standard anvil.
#41......................................Mil. Spec. primer, thick cup, magnum primer charge, angle of anvil change.
BR4.....................................thick cup, standard anvil and standard priming mix held to a tighter tolerance.





Make Every Shot Count!
Justin M.
CCI/Speer
2299 Snake River Ave
Lewiston, ID. 83501"

I would like to continue to use the BR-4's in my reduced load rounds since the rounds all seem to be more consistent. Only problem is they are also a bit more expensive and hard to find around here. I may try some standard rifle primers and some magnum primers just to see if there is any real difference in my light loads.

[Digital Dan]

Boomer, maybe you should look to some of the basics before pursuing minutiae? Lot of powders are position sensitive when using reduced loads. Try tilting your rifle up before each shot, or use a bit of dacron to hold it in place. You might try a bit larger diameter. You might also endeavor to make sure any and all copper fouling is removed from the bore before shooting lead bullets. Maybe a different alloy mix? Your more favorable results with the fast twist barrel is a bit counter intuitive but perhaps there's a message to be found there.

H110 won't be your friend with this, stick with Unique or similar powders.

[22_boomer]

Unique is the only really fast powder I have and it seems to work very well for me. if I put each cartridge together paying attention to all the details they seem to work well. My manual AR still has the buffer and spring in place so the rounds are loaded into the chamber rather quickly. I would imagine the powder in each case is pretty much at the rear of the case near the primer hole. I use a 10 round Magpul magazine for all the rounds in the test gun. I'm not sure yet if I want to go the dacron route yet but I may try tipping the muzzle up before I shoot. I am a bit surprised that the 1:7 twist will actually allow me to put the cast boolits close to where I want them. The bore was clean before and after shooting so I must be keeping the velocity in the "Good" range. I did try a slower twist barrel at one time but it was an older Colt SP1 and I was not working that hard at keeping everything just right -- more like "load em up and shoot em" without a lot of control as to how things went together.

[22_boomer]

OOPS! double post -- fat fingers.